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Dancing Edge is still King over Evisceration outside abysseaFollow

#1 Nov 18 2011 at 5:04 PM Rating: Excellent
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It's been quite a while since I've created a new thread on the thf boards and even longer since I've done a mathy post, but today I decided to try something new out and solo some dreamlands dynamis mobs. After doing my homework to find statue locations and proc conditions I headed out to valkurm and entered with subjob unrestricted just to mess around. I chose to do the "ws proc" line so once I had my TE's down I started farming, and during the goobbue period I was alternating between various ws just for the **** of it when I began to notice something unexpected. My eviscerations were doing pretty standard but to my surprise my dancing edges were kicking some serious **** out there (I have my skadi's cuirie in storage and was using the menue to dancing edge with no gear swaps). We've been telling people that evisceration >>> dancing edge no matter where you are because of our crit job trait bonus and gear such as lokis and etc; stating that it completely outmatched the 40% charisma secondary mod, but I wasn't seeing this in practice. Curious about this I loaded up Kparser and recreated a dancing edge gear swap and collected some data. The results are below

Screenshot

NOTES: In order to keep this sample as pure as possible I removed my ziskas and added my raiders boomerang, and weaponskilled at 50% or higher so that none of my weaponskills would deliver a finishing blow and get their swings cut short. In order to do this I was juggling two mobs at once most of the time, and one of my target swaps failed and I did finish off a mob at ~~ 30% with evisceration by mistake once, so I will be omitting that weaponskill from my analysis. All mobs were Nightmare Goobbues, and I paid close attention to keep food up 100% of the time (I was eating red curry buns and I consumed a second food within 10 seconds of my original wearing off). I never used sneak attack or assassin's charge at any point

I'm also going to post my weaponskill set with relevant stats

Screenshot


722 attack, 183 dexterity, 133 strength, 63 charisma. Also while it's not visible my hecatomb subligar +1 is augmented with critical hit rate + 3% and you're all familiar with Loki's Khaftan by now so the crits get a 13% damage boost via lokis + trait.

I used this weaponskill set universally between dancing edge and evisceration. There were no alterations for either weaponskill.
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Time for Analysis
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Basic Melee Information

My accuracy was capped at 95%, my crit rate was 28.5% which is 0.5 off from the expected 29% (20% + 5% (merits) + 4% (af3 +2 pants) == 29%). My weapons were Twashtar (lvl 85) and Flame kila +3 so average base D is 45 + fSTR which caps at 14. I have a feeling my strength was capped or **** close, so average base D is probably around 57-59. My average melee damage was 101 and my average crit was 169.5 which supports this. My average pDIF appears to be approximately 1.75-1.8 which is about expected since these mobs have the same stats they did at lvl 75, and my melee attack was 659.

Dancing Edge

Out of 23 weaponskills my low was 1,255, high was 2166, average was 1707.

Evisceration

Out of 21 weaponskills my low was 1145, my high was 1,950, and my average was 1615 (34,818 - 897 == 33921; and 33921/21 == 1615. This removes the evisceration that got a killing blow from the equation)

On average dancing edge was 100 points of damage stronger than evisceration
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Mathy McMathy Mathpants Analysis

This may or may not hold true for mobs with higher defense values (voidwatch), but if your pDIF is remotely positive (as it should be outside abyssea or voidwatch) it looks like dancing edge is STILL just as powerful as evisceration. We underestimated 20 levels worth of charisma gains. Further thoughts below

At 75 my blau dolch was D 33 (ftr cap 12), my dex was 87, chr was 47, my ws set had about 51 dex and 8 chr, so the charisma mod increased my base D by approximately 20% at lvl 75, raising it from approximately 80 D to 103 D. That was why dancing edge matched up with evisceration so well. My lvl 95 stats are weapon D 45,(fSTR cap 14), 107 base dex, 63 chr, + 86 dex and + 0 chr (gear). My charisma went up by 16 since lvl 75 which is a slightly higher point per level increase(47/75 == 0.626 points of chr per level, whereas 63/95 == 0.663 points of chr per level). Charisma still increases base weapon D by approximately 20% at lvl 95... the exact same as it did 20 levels ago, boosting base D from 104 to 127. The fundamental differences between these two weaponskills are almost identical to their lvl 75 counterpart relationships. Its worth noting that the general rule of thumb mages follow regarding the magic attack bonus formula of 2 int >> 1 Mab >>> 1 Int has also remained consistently accurate at level 95 (higher spell base D is a large reason why).

Without RR/GH/SS atmas evisceration isn't as solidly ahead of DE outside of abyssea as we have been saying for the past half a year. Part of this is because we can raise our attack to more profound average pDIF levels over the older mob sets than we used, and an equal part of it is because despite the job trait bonuses evisceration is severely limited by its critical hit rate outside of abyssea. My heca subligar is augmented with +3 crit hit rate, so I'm still stuck at 28% crit hit rate without my atmas. Secondary mods at 95 look like this

My current Dancing Edge Base D breakdown
floor (floor(183 x 0.3) + (63 x 0.4) x 0.85) == 68
45 (D) + 14 (fStr) 68 (wsc) == 127 base D

My current Evisceration Base D Breakdown
floor (floor(183 x 0.3) + x 0.85) == 45
45 (D)+ 14 (fStr) + 45 (wsc) == 104 base D

Now considering that my average pDIF is solidly up there even with /nin sub at approximately 1.75 average pDIF

Average Dancing Edge damage per swing at 1.75 pDIF
127 x 1.75 == 222 damage per hit

Average NON crit Evisceration sweing at 1.75 pDIF
104 x 1.75 == 182 damage per hit

Average Eviceration Critical at 1.75 pDIF with trait + Lokis bonus applied

104 x 2.75 x 1.13 == 323 damage per critical

DE averages about 40 damage/swing more per non crit, whereas evisc averages about 100 damage higher per crit/swing, however evisceration's critical hit rate is stuck at 28% making it weaker than Dancing Edge's overall performance.

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Conclusion

Dancing Edge has retained the same relative strength to evisceration as it had outside abyssea at 75 over the past 20 levels in the same way the magic attack gearing general rule of thumb (2 int > 1 MaB > 1 Int) is also still true at 95. Abyssea BROKE evisceration with a symbism between a lot more crits at a lot higher strength each. However with the standard crit rate outside abyssea and a 1.13 job trait + Loki's bonus evisceration doesn't receive nearly as much leverage over DE's charisma mod as we gave it credit for. Dancing Edge is still very much a contender outside abyssea. If you don't believe me I invite you to try it out for yourself and see. Run your own parses and I'll let you be the judge

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Final Gear Note -- Rancor Collar and Skadi's Cuirie + Airy Ring --

My tonberry hate isn't high enough to cap out rancor collars effects, as such I've been using love torque/agagysea collar. However even if I did have its effects fully unlocked I'm confident nothing would have changed. To use the rancor collar I would be giving up the love torque, losing 7 attack and 5 dex. 5% crit rate still takes the lead, but if I am going to consider this piece I also have to consider another potential gear swap I wasn't using... my skadi's cuirie. My samples were done with neither my cuirie NOR a rancor collar, and skadi's cuirie is a stronger DE piece than Loki's kaftan is. Furthermore I don't own an airy ring anymore but that's yet another feather in Dancing Edge's cap. If I was to compare DE with skadi's + love torque + airy's ring versus Evisc with Lokis + rancor I have no doubt DE would still win. This also ignores the dexterity bonus love torque benefits sneak attack with, and while all my weaponskills were solo we DO stack them quite often (more so now than ever thanks to bully). Rancor collar still benefits SA evisc more but its just another factor that affects the overall relationship between the two weaponskills.

TL;DR version: Nothing has changed. Dancing Edge is just as strong relative to evisceration outside abyseea now as it was at lvl 75. So long as your average pDIF isn't in the dumpster (which it shouldn't be if you're using a multi hit weaponskill... ManStab/Shark Bite etc still hold a place on massive defense HNM) evisceration still doesn't measure up to it without the power of atma.

Edited, Nov 18th 2011 6:54pm by Melphina
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#2 Nov 18 2011 at 6:20 PM Rating: Good
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Very interesting, thank you for bringing this to our attention. I solo dynamis daily so I'll get myself a parser up and running and check out my DEs.
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#3 Nov 18 2011 at 10:21 PM Rating: Good
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It all looks solid. The numbers all work out pretty well and should be pretty widely applicable. However, there are a few variables that should probably be considered.

1: Though limited, the evis crit rate tests a few years ago (tentatively) showed roughly ~10% crit rate bonus at 100TP. (i dont remember what the margin of error worked out to be). Obviously that doesnt change the parser, but would affect our theory craft if we try to figure out at what point one passes the other, if ever.

2: The option to offhand TP+100 fusetto. I tend to lean on that offhand as a staple for rudras storm. This would favor Evis in most cases(TP crit rate bonus over just DE TP acc bonus). This is a little less common as it requires a specific, and rarely made dagger, but still notable.

This is probably a pretty good juncture to revisit evis crit rate tests. With a TP bonus offhand, it would be MUCH easier to test evis crit rate at 200TP and finally get some real numbers to stick on aa crit rate growth with more TP.

We probably should have looked at DE again when they did that stat growth adjustment that made our strongest stats grow more slowly and our weakest stats gain more as we leveled a while back, but better late than never.

I am really curious how much 'evis favoring stuff' you need before it jumps up. I tend to use TP100 offhand, recently capped my tonberry hate, have crit rate heca sub+1 etc. Needs more tests and mathy mcmathy mathpants and we can have a really concrete idea of whate were dealing wtih :)

/thumbs up
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#4 Nov 18 2011 at 11:13 PM Rating: Good
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Yes, the fusetto +2 and the tp testing came to my mind but there wasn't any good way to add them into my op without jumbling it up into a cluttered mess. I figured it would be mentioned in the responses and better addressed here to preserve continuity. In my opinion it's easier to just use the OP as a general starting point of knowledge and judge variables by their own self. The Op doesn't account for the variables but just goes into the basic unbuffed stats which is what I had in the field solo.

Rogue's roll benefits evisceration, chaos benefits both but leans more towards dancing edge performance due to the nature of a crit based ws, ramuhs favor is crit rate, fusetto +2 offhand is extremely rare (even I haven't finished mine yet). I lost heart in finishing my fusetto when I learned I'd need 100 dice as opposed to 40 flame geodes and realized I was looking at 400k versus 7 million for +2 base D on both daggers, and kila even had a bonus strength point. (it seems I got confused somewhere along the line. That's not at all what fusetto +3 requires to make). Flame Kila +3 represents some serious DoT power both in base D/delay and the attack/fSTR mod. I'll leave it at that though. I don't want to derail this discussion into a dagger debate but rather keep it on the weaponskills presented. Obviously if you have a tp bonus fusetto +2 or +3 I would hope you should know what to do with it (I agree fusetto +2 offhand is probably going to win out for evisceration overall, but we still lack solid testing so even then I have nothing to gauge that on but gut instinct, and that may or may not be correct. Although the worst case scenario would probably land on a wash).

All variables aside, I was quite surprised by this session today. It makes me smile to think that the more things change the more they stay the same... that and even when we think something is obviously true the little things we overlook may play a bigger role than we gave credit for. Case in point this

Quote:
We probably should have looked at DE again when they did that stat growth adjustment that made our strongest stats grow more slowly and our weakest stats gain more as we leveled a while back, but better late than never.


I don't know why but I just smile when little stuff like this changes the way we view things.

Edited, Nov 19th 2011 12:16am by Melphina

Edited, Nov 19th 2011 8:49am by Melphina
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#5 Nov 19 2011 at 12:57 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
I lost heart in finishing my fusetto when I learned I'd need 100 dice as opposed to 40 flame geodes and realized I was looking at 400k versus 7 million for +2 base D on both daggers


Is this for the lv 99 trial? I havent seen anything on those yet. The lv 95 TP100 fusetto+3 is just 500 WS on beasts (over 400 damage). Not sure if im misreading you, or you mixed something up.

The 100 dice are just for the WOE path that gives the empy WS.

Edited, Nov 19th 2011 11:22am by Banalaty
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#6 Nov 29 2011 at 4:49 PM Rating: Good
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I'll just say that for multi-hit WS you are way outside the margin of error on these to declare DE the winner, if you add EVs average dmg to the total WS damage(to simulate 23 DE vs. 23 EV) you have 51.8% DE vs. 48.2%, which is 3.6% difference. You could have just had a good run of DEs vs. a bad run of EV or you could be totally right. I'm just saying a parse with 45 total WS is a little too early to call it.

On the other end, I have never been really satisfied with EV outside of Abyssea.

Edited, Nov 29th 2011 4:51pm by Meldi
#7 Nov 29 2011 at 10:59 PM Rating: Good
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Well the parse alone isnt conclusive, its just what sparked the idea. Melph did some preliminary mathy mcmath to show it has more potential than we have given it credit for. I personally used this as an excuse to update my homegrown damage SS to include crit damage boosts for evis and properly account for DA/TA with the 8hit cap that had been messing up my numbers by a fraction for ages.

With the (assumed) 10% crit rate bonus at 100 tp on evis from the testing thread, my evis gear comes to 13% crit damage and a 43% crit rate (rancor and 3% heca leg+1) it turns out that the break poit for me is at ~1.21 pdif. When over 1.21, my DE set beats my Evis set. When under 1.21, Evis beats DE. Thats actually a LOT of content. 1.21 includes all 75 content and all trash mobs and a great deal of higher stuff with a little atk buff. Heaven forbid we get DW3 and can /war at 99 ^_^ Zerk up=DE, down=evis or something fun like that :)

However, my personal gear analysis did not include the TP bonus from my fusetto+3 that I use for rudras. I have no idea how much +100 TP ups crit rate on evis as I have never seen any 200/300 tests, so the 'real' break point for my personal DE vs Evis is not truly 1.21, but somthing higher. How much i cant say until i know what +100 TP does to crit rate.

I also havent bothered to augment my heca+1 gloves yet for crit damage and only today updated my spreadsheet to accurately account for DA/TA/Crit damage boosts accurately, so i will probably check out AF3+2 vs Heca augs tomorrow in my own sets to see how aug heca compares to AF3. Then finish splicing in SA to the whole thing and tie it with a bow. I havent had this much fun checking stuff out in years ^_^

Anyway, at least i can finally accuratly compare the handful of items i hadnt before with DA/TA/Crit stuff. Time to find out if i need to go back and +1 my heca cap and aug my hands and possible future cap :P

Edited, Nov 30th 2011 12:02am by Banalaty
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#8 Dec 02 2011 at 12:31 PM Rating: Good
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Quite frankly Banalaty, it seems like it would have to up the crit rate pretty significantly to really impact it. I did a little excel sheet just to see how these stack up (I really need to program a universal thing for this so I can stop doing it over and over). Here is what I am seeing.

Using Melphina's gear and assumed pDif this is what I came up with

DE base damage is 129 main hand 126 offhand
EV base damage is 106 main hand and 103 offhand (18% less on both)

DE first hit is 267 damage
6 hit normal (5 main hand/1 offhand) = 1387 average damage

EV hit/crit hit is 185/328
6 hit normal (5 mainhand/1 offhand @ 38% crit rate) = 1430 average damage
6 hit no crits = 1105
6 hit 2 crit (main hand) = 1391
6 hit all crits = 1959

I am really kind of impressed with DE, its staying power is just crazy. It does lose to EV on the average calculation, but not by much at all. Because of the potential for extremely high max damage, I would say that EV is still the way to go though. Especially if you get more crit rate from fusetto.

Putting my probability and statistics class from this semester to good use, you can find out that the probability of < 2 crit EV with a 38% probability per hit would be 9.2% of the time. or essentially 1/11 weaponskills. This means on paper that 10 out of every 11 Eviscerations "should" produce more damage than Dancing Edge at that cRatio which is a little different from what the parse is showing.

Edit: Ok, I made a significant error on the calculation because I accidentally used fTP on DE of 2.1875 instead of its actual value of 1.1875 which significantly impacted the conclusion. Reworked solution above.

Edited, Dec 2nd 2011 12:53pm by Meldi

Edited, Dec 2nd 2011 12:57pm by Meldi
#9 Dec 03 2011 at 3:35 PM Rating: Good
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So to devils advocate a bit, will the new WS outshine both DE and Evis or is it too soon to tell? I've heard so many things so far (and used it myself a few times, but didn't do any extensive testing) but would like to see a final conclusion.
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#10 Dec 04 2011 at 7:27 AM Rating: Decent
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The new dagger ws needs more testing. But what I have read so far is that it is going to be our new best ws unstacked. So no SA or TA. It supposed to have a 100%AGI mod with fragmentation/scission property. And you have to merit it a few times before the ws starts to pay off.
Source: http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/106679-Test-Server-Findings/page99

If somebody could test elemental gorget+belt for this ws that would be awesome. The .2 ftp bonus from gorget + belt is rumoured to work for all hits of the ws. If that is true the ws gets a massive boost over all other ws. Normally gorget/belt bonuses only work on the first hit of a ws.

#11 Dec 06 2011 at 4:22 PM Rating: Good
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As breaze said, the WS are all still being tested, but so long as it doesnt have a negative atk property like some of the 2handed WS have been shown to have, it should be beating the pants off of both.

The FTP bonus applying to all hits 'seems' to only impact WS with less than 1.0 FTP on the 1st hit. I wouldnt hold my breath on that changing.

We also finally have a TAWS combo that doesnt sacrifice gear. I know my rudras are really significantly stronger using SA+Rudra since its all dex all the time. An agi WS equivalent sounds really appealing to beef up a TA+WS set. I dont know yet how it might stand up to rudra/mercy, but for everyone without relic/empy it should be really very nice at full merits.

Edit:
Ran some numbers, it does beat DE and evis.....if you dont need much acc to land hits. Our current agi gear is SEVERELY lacking in acc/atk and is basically, just raw agi. For example, my sets i tossed together for Exten has 48 acc and 51 less atk less than evis set. 58 acc and 63 less than DE set.On anything of any difficulty the 1-2 punch of bad acc/atk drops it real fast.

HOWEVER, their is some REALLY REALLY nice agi based gear coming our way next update. Check out upgraded denali stuff to see what i mean. So much new gear with ABSURD amounts of Agi+acc/atk. I think the pants had like 9 agi, 24atk or something like that. The new gear should really make this a powerhouse in the future.

Edited, Dec 6th 2011 5:35pm by Banalaty
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#12 Dec 06 2011 at 8:33 PM Rating: Good
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Nyzul Isle stuff is getting an upgrade? Cool, do you happen to have a link to that? Did some searching and couldn't find anything.
#13 Dec 06 2011 at 8:38 PM Rating: Excellent
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Meldi wrote:
Nyzul Isle stuff is getting an upgrade? Cool, do you happen to have a link to that? Did some searching and couldn't find anything.


Elspetta wrote:
Quote:
Askar Set +5 - Set Bonus Occasionally annulls severe damage taken:

Askar Zucchetto +5 - DEF36 ACC+10 ATK+10 EVA+10 StoreTP+7 Haste +7Subtle Blow +7 Setbonus
Askar Korazin +5 - DEF70 +16 STR ATK+5% (Limit+50) CritHitDamageUP (+15%) DoubleAttackDmgUp (+15%) Setbonus
Askar Manopolas +5 - DEF31 STR+14 VIT+9 INT+9 Crit+3% DoubleAttack+3% Setbonus
Askar Dirs +5 - DEF51 DEX+10 VIT+10 ATK+24 StoreTP+7 Haste+6 Setbonus
Askar Gambieras +5 - DEF28 ACC+12 DamageTaken-5% SublteBlow +10 Sometimes physical damage will lower enemy TP by 10% Setbonus


Quote:
Denali Set +5 - Set Bonus Sometimes seals big damage:

Denali Bonnet +5 - DEF34 STR+6 Ratk+6 Macc+6 Mab+6 Crit+4% Setbonus
Denali Jacket +5 - DEF63 ACC+12 Haste+4 Doubleattack +3% Trippleattack+3% Quadrupleattack+3% Setbonus
Denali Wristbands +5 - DEF28 DEX+8 VIT+8 AGI+8 ACC+10 EVA+10 EnhancesFastcast (4%) Haste+4 Setbonus
Denali Kecks +5 - DEF47 STR+9 AGI +9 ATK+14 EVA+14 Haste+6 Setbonus
Denali Gamashes +5 - DEF26 DEX+10 AGI+10 MND+10 ATK+16 Ratk+10 DoubleAttack+3% Setbonus


Quote:
Goliard Set+5 - Set Bonus will make you sometimes generate 0 enmity

Goliard Chapeau +5 - DEF19 INT+12 Mab+5 Mcrit+5% ConserveMP+5 EnahcnesFastcast (10%) Setbonus
Goliard Saio +5 - DEF53 INT+9 MND+9 CHR+9 Macc+15 Mab+8 Mdb+8 Enmity-10 Setbonus
Goliard Cuffs +5 - DEF24 MP+3% Mab+13 HMP+4 Avatar: MAB+8 Setbonus
Goliard Trews +5 - DEF42 HP+4% MP+4% MND+14 CurePotency+7% Refresh (1tick) Setbonus
Goliard Clogs +5 - DEF21 HP+3% MP+3% MND+8 CHR+8 Macc+7 Mab+7 Enmity-10 Setbonus


Source

I scanned through the other threads on the new updates and didn't see this mentioned. If I missed it, please delete this thread.


Some of this stuff is absolutely ridiculous.
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#14 Dec 07 2011 at 2:51 PM Rating: Good
Nice find Solrain, I was wondering also what the nyzule isle stuff was gonna be like upgraded. Those denali feet and hands seem to stand out the most to me. Only because I main thief and nothing else matters LOL.
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#15 Dec 11 2011 at 1:35 PM Rating: Good
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Kinda relevant, but I found that the Crit rate of Evisceration at 300TP was ~40%. I have a TP Bonus Fusetto, so I can try that the next time I get in a testing mood~! 300% was easy because I could just afk between mobs, lol.

http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Talk:Evisceration
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#16 Dec 12 2011 at 9:06 AM Rating: Good
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Your so productive if we just take your controller away! You know we all pulled some strings to delay shipping so you would test all this new **** for us right? ^_^;;

I wish abyssea was out when i was testing 100tp evis years ago ; ;

Great info though. Tentative 10% at 100, tentative 40% 300. Getting closer ^_^ If anyone feels so inclined to work on 200, I wuv u wrong time.
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#17 Dec 16 2011 at 12:42 AM Rating: Decent
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New WS Stomps DE and Evisc outside of Aby FYI...
#18 Dec 21 2011 at 3:33 PM Rating: Good
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Banalaty wrote:
Your so productive if we just take your controller away! You know we all pulled some strings to delay shipping so you would test all this new **** for us right? ^_^;;

I wish abyssea was out when i was testing 100tp evis years ago ; ;

Great info though. Tentative 10% at 100, tentative 40% 300. Getting closer ^_^ If anyone feels so inclined to work on 200, I wuv u wrong time.


This is not empirical or anything, but I would expect the crit bonus @ 200 to be either 20% or 25% based on those numbers. That would give a progression of 10 >> 10 >> 20 or 10 >> 15 >> 15 to the crit rate.

Seems like it is probably the hardest to test. If you can some how get up to 75% crit rate in abyssea (RR, GH with base crit rate + merits should do it). Test on almost dead mobs for 1 shot kills and if you ever get a normal EV hit it is less than 25%. Then get up to 80% and try again to see if it is 20%.

This would take forever, but if someone had a sam with the TP transfer JA, you could test at exactly 200% tp. 15 min cooldown though.
#19 Dec 21 2011 at 5:56 PM Rating: Good
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You don't actually have to use exactly 200 TP, you just have to use 100TP or more. As long as you're just trying to nail it down within 5%, your TP doesn't really have to be precise.
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Yay for Jhereg!
http://www.ffxiah.com/player/Lakshmi/Byrth
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