THF MeritsFollow

Not to add to the flames Eaglestrike, but Nebo1 also specifically said that he is using RR/GH/SS for atmas, which means that he doesn't have 35% TA rate. At most he has probably 16%, since with a Twash/Daka he probably isn't offhanding a Triplus dagger. On WS he is probably still at 10% due to equipment swapping.

For my merits, I have 5/5 Feint, 4/5 AC, 1/5 AS. Personally I don't use either AC or AS very often. The best utility I have found for AS was recently when I was low manning Blanga, I would occasionally get his attack buff from him. Quite often his very next TP move would be Triumphant Roar again. Don't get me wrong, I much preferred that to Terror Eye/claw attack of drainage. There are arguments for both, I am seriously considering dropping my AS merit myself. The only reason I haven't is I don't really ride my AC timer either. Ambush is totally useless to me as I am quite often the first one to the hate cap on whatever we are fighting.

This shows you don't know what is going on. There are different classifications of buffs. There's a Defense Boost buff (like Cocoon) and a Defense Down debuff (like acid bolts). These buffs are mutually exclusive. But then there is protect. It's a separate defense boost. You can have a defense down effect on you while you still have protect, go out and try it.

My comment was to make fun that Melphina was claiming removing Protect IV was useless, when just above it was stated how amazing acid bolts are, when mobs only have 400-450 defense (unless they're PLD creatures and such and many mobs may still be in the 350-400 range) and acid bolts would only be worth 40-50 defense loss when protect IV is 65 defense or so.

Their argument though is that with acid bolts you can take 45-50 def from every mob, but Aura steal only allows you to do it AT MOST every 3-5 mobs that you fight, and even then, it depends on if aura steal takes the "right" buff.

They will not likely be applying it again right away. That's not how mobs work in FFXI. They only cast every 15s or so, and somewhat randomly between their spellbook of which to cast.

And did they buff acid bolts since back in the day? You guys speak as if you just shoot once and it has defense down forever. How they used to work is it required a gearset to have a good chance to land. Then you needed the proc to also actually go off. And then it would also wear every so often. Did they change this like sneak/invis and make it a set duration and high proc rate or something? Because if not, I'm still not seeing it worth losing 15 inventory slots and a bunch of melee swings to keep them up.

Also, you can still acid bolt while aura stealing stuff. So it's not like this is Aura Steal vs xbow usage.

Edited, Jun 13th 2011 4:41pm by SirEaglestrike

Now that our primary merit prey is not colibri, Acid bolts are back to nearly 100% proc for me when I use them. Just like before the buff lasts about 30-60 seconds for me, which is usually long enough to do what needs done. NMs are a different story, as they have always been, but even some of them aren't bad to use acid bolts on. I mostly use my Raider's Boomerang though, it is just less of a hassle.

You are just going to have to accept that a lot of thieves wont agree with you eaglestrike. 1 dispel per NM battle isn't as "useful" as you say. Despite that, there is really only one crippling buff nowadays, evasion bonus. With abyssea so crit heavy, yeah def buffs slow things down, but you don't even really have to dispel it anymore. Evasion buffs are much more potent, and to tell the truth, feint does much more to combat that than aura steal does. And on a much shorter timer too.

Other thieves have wieghed the cost of going 5/5 AC over 4/5 AC 1/5 AS, and they have found the loss of AS acceptable. Others have not. Both are valid paths to chose, and neither will significantly impact the outcome of battle.

Just because their decision is different from yours does not mean they, nor you, have chosen poorly.

Edited, Jun 13th 2011 4:25pm by Meldi

Sometimes this is true, sometimes it is not. Some things are grey areas, some are not. Typically, there's what you want to do which is your decision and then there is what is best, which is typically a clear cut thing.

Not really, there are people here being illogical about it. Nebo1, who originally posted it, has admitted throughout this thread that he now "hates" aura steal, after having it merited fully the whole time. And there are other people here who "hate" Aura Steal or are "boycotting" Aura Steal. That's not logical and doesn't make any sense. You really think the Devs are going to see that a handful of people don't use a group II merit and will alter it? Hi2u Warcry merits.

This is true. I don't like the ability (or rather, the way it was implemented).

Having said that, you are praising it with usefulness that it really does not have in all practicality. It's a gimmick. It steals something. Its cute.

It's not one of those things you tell someone they are a fool for not meriting. That....is foolish.

lol. It really really isn't.

Banalaty,

Its the same way with AS, it offers like 0 benefit in the practical game. Today I was soling Haz--- whatever on dnc and he put up Thorn Song and I was like, oh sh*t! I could have used AS here. But... I was on Dnc, so I just turned around for 20sec and it went away... turning around had a (20sec) vs (5min) more utility than Aura Steal LOL.

However, when I want to dot my i's and cross my t's for a ws, im 2:30min more likely (or whatever) to have everything lined up which is a hellofalot better for me when I never ever need AS. Sure some day stars may align and all mages dispel timers are down and the tank has 30hp and a spikes was just put up and I could have saved the alliance with my super secret whoa its so lucky the thief had a dispel!

I mean, that's how I'd quantify AS's usefulness, and then I'd think that that ally wasn't very prepared to win the battle on a thief 5min AS. How do you quantify AS? Solo its got too long a timer, and in party you have mages...

I personally understand your point which is why I take all this with a "grain of salt."





Edited, Jun 14th 2011 3:40am by Shirakx

Yes Eaglestrike, but 1 min later or less it put up spikes again... its like you're wearing some sort of filtered glasses.

Also, don't twist my words, reminds me of a jack-in-the-box. Most people here are more mature and wised-up these days.

You can have the soapbox, it really doesn't matter to me what other thief merit and something as trivial as AS vs AC isn't game-breaking enough to drag on.

Edit: See Banalaty's post. lol

He more eloquently says what I have already said, and what Eagle has been saying. The arguments given against AS would work if we were talking about 5/5 AS vs 5/5 Ass Charge, but we're not. The gain in such an incredibly marginal difference from getting a 5minute timer instead of a 7.5 timer is never going to outweigh the ability to dispel any buff.

Every argument I've seen so far is either incredibly hypocritical or a strawman.

1. Calling AS worthless because it's on a 5 minute timer, when you're meriting a 7.5 minute ability down to 5 minutes.
2. Saying you can use acid bolts, which only work on defense up buffs and can be used with aura steal as well.
3. Saying Dispelling a debuff isn't a big increase while pretending that 1 more TA proc every 15 minutes max is.
etc.

Like I said before, if you REALLY want that 5 minute timer for that incredibly marginal increase you're probably better off going 4/5 feint.

Edited, Jun 14th 2011 8:59am by Deadgye

Personal preference is FINE. But dont justify your personal 'preference' by skewing the facts. Example:

I merited 5/5 AC, 1/5 AS, 4/5 Feint. I KNOW for a fact that a 2 min feint (over the 4min i have now) is vastly superior from a functional standpoint than 7.5 down to 5min AC. Feint up 75% of the time (30 sec duration, 2min recast) is WAAY better than 25% of the time (30 sec duration, 4 min recast at 4/5 merits).

The last merit DOUBLES the effectiveness of one of the most potent abilities in the entire game! But, I got my twashtar and fell in love with AC+Rudras storm (its sexy!)

But still, i merited 5/5 AC and 4/5 feint because of 'personal preference'. That is FINE. But I am not going to walk around telling everyone that 4/5 feint+5/5 AC is more powerful than the other way round by twisting things. It isnt. But I am ok with that. I acknowledge that and i play happily anyway.

I have nothing against personal preference even if it is not the 'best' or 'ideal' choice. I do it because i LIKE AC+Rudras. And if anyone asks me about my merits i will say 2 things:

1: Reccommend 4/5 AC, 5/5 feint, 1/5 AS. Its the 'best' from a functional standpoint and if needbe explain exactly why in very real terms.
2: Say my merits are not the 'best' but I have more FUN with AC.

Similarly, on rng i am merited 5/5 recycle and 4/5 snapshot. Obviously 5/5 snap is 'better' for killing things. I know this. There is no arguing this point. But i am cheap and lazy so i did the extra recycle. But I wont tell anyone that its the BEST setup because that would simply be untrue. I am happy with my 5/5 recycle, but if someone asks what is the 'best' I will never recommend ANY recycle because it does not enhance anything about rng. I wont try to justify it beyond anything more than 'im cheap'. I will never justify/rationalize it as if it is better for performing rng duties in any measurable way.

Fun =/= best. Best is a quantitative measurement (using hard numbers. EG: Which is higher, 1 or 2?). What is most fun/personal Pref is a qualitative measurement (What is better, Blue or Red?) that is extremely subjective and has no effective measurement tool. Do not mix up the two.

1/5 AS, 4/5 AC, 5/5 feint will have the most benefit in the most situations. It is the most universal setup that will prepare you in any situation. Never will you use that and say "damn i wish i had X JA. To bad I didnt merit it" while still maintaining the highest DD potential available while being well rounded enough to cover anything (ie: take the smallest hit to DD, 4/5 AC, and open up a unique utility ability). If all you do is farm blm skellies with your entire playtime, then yes, you will have a lot of bone chips and wish you had 5/5 AC, but this game is not that narrow.

Fact: You do not have to dispel EVERYTHING for dispel to be useful. That is ~30 sec or whatever till it puts it back up that you DONT have it up. If it spends another TP/Magic move rebuffing, that is one less dangerous TP/Magic move. EG: Constantly dispelling a pixie means it just spams Pro/shell/Regen/SS instead of aeroga 4. recasting 1 buff every 5 min is one less dangerous spell every 5 min. Its one less dangerous TP move replaced by a buff TP move. 1 dispel is better than no dispel no matter what the timer is.

Fact: AC is the most marginal DD boost available (between feint/AC). Reducing the timer makes you smile, but the parse wont even notice it. Seriously. It is exceptionally tiny. We are talking a couple hundred points of damage at best in a 15 minute window. How many THOUSANDS upon THOUSANDS of damage can we do in 15 friggin minutes. (after you remove the probability that you would have tripled that WS anyway without AC and only if you use it on the dot every 5 min which also doesnt happen). Its a drop in the bucket, and the best candidate to take a hit for AS as you loose the least.

Fact: Dispel can be used if you have mages or not. Solo or group. With and without acids. It can dispel things mages cant. It is instant and can be used much faster by a melee on a mob than a mage in the middle of casting freeze 2. It costs no MP. It costs no attention/cast time that they can use for something else by your mages.

Those are statements of fact that cannot be changed, and each can be measured (though with some difficulty in creating an accurate model, still possible, and MORE than possible to estimate/ballpark a real benefit).

Quantitative/Qualitative. Dont mix them up. Dont try to tell people red is better than blue by using numbers. It is an exercise in futility. But, you can tell me you LIKE red all day long and I will respect your opinion. Try to tell my red is 50% better than blue and Im calling boolsheet.

Take a point out of feint if you're THAT obsessed with having 5/5 Ass Charge.


If I can have my way I'll be helping more threads like this happen. We need moar discussion!

Edited, Jun 14th 2011 12:42pm by Deadgye

Other post was to long anyway. More examples because I like them.

How I am reading this thread:

What should I merit? The 2010 Camaro or 2011 Mustang?

"Mustangs are better!"
"Camaro are better!"
"Mustangs 'feel' better when you drive them!"
"Camaros V6 have 8 more horsepower!"
"Mustangs drive better!"
"Camaros have a higher governator speeds"
"Mustangs have a stronger history!"
"Camaros have better gas milage!"
"Mustangs have better factory colors!"(if your into crayon box primary colors xD)

Any debate like this will just go on forever because both sides are using different qualifications about 'best'. Apples to oranges. How do you weigh 4/10ths of a second faster in the 0-60 vs a aesthetic design you like better? You dont.

How do you compare the 'feeling' of an AC for a big number that makes you go "EEEEE!" like a little school girl (even though it wont do anything really in the big picture of damage) vs the functional bonus of removing spikes/def/haste/eva boost/MAB/stoneskin/etc instantly on command. You dont. You cant compare a feeling vs a number in any practical terms. Its apples and oranges.

So what are our options? We reframe the debate into something measurable or we yell and scream about blue being better than red for 20 pages.

Tangent: I do miss activity in the forum. I hate that the only things that get any attention are rather negative and fighting over semantic BS because there is nothing else to do ; ;

Guess we will have about a week of 'stuff' to talk about when 95 rolls around :S

Like I said above, I have 5/5 Feint, 4/5 AC, 1/5 AS. I am not in a hurry to change this for a few reasons. 1. I use TA atmas. 2. I use Evisceration. 3. I like having it "personal preference."

Edit: I would never take my 5/5 Feint away, I actually do ride that timer religiously.

If I ever go for a Twashtar or a Daka, or Vajra, I might consider switching to 5/5 AC though, because it would be fun, and because both paths are about the same. See below.

Banalaty: The problem with your Mustang/Camaro argument is that one clearly has the advantage in every area (Whether or not that is true I have no idea because I know zip about cars). AC and AS are clearly not that way. Both have their benefits that they bring to the table, and both have their cons.

The arguments for AC are more detailed than the ones for AS in most of this thread.
Hey!! I get 33% more TAs guaranteed than I did before!! vs. Dispel.... /drool!

My problem with the people vehemently arguing FOR AS is because they refuse to acknowledge ANY benefit for those that chose to merit AC all the way. AC does provide a benefit. ACs benefit from 4/5 to 5/5 is extremely marginal. AS's benefit is ALSO extremely marginal, and yet some arguing in the thread are treating it like the second coming of the 2hd patch.

Edited, Jun 14th 2011 2:14pm by Meldi

This, how you came to an opposite observation confuses me.

I have no problems with your post(I probably agree, but I'm staying out of this) and it's very well written etc etc.

On that note... some BLU spells use both MND and INT, several of their magical spells do.


Of course, several use other more unorthodox combinations, dex/int, chr, dex, etc, and you'd still have a ton of physical spells that use STR/DEX as well, making the rings equal, but...

[/nitpick]

That's the kind of thing people are WTFing at the AS side of this thread. Most of us on both sides know 1/5 AS is more than sufficient, and most of our merits look like a mixture of feint, ac and as. The debate is running into people putting multiple merits on AS on the same level as multiple merits in AC or feint.

Sorry, that's retarded. AS is just NOT on equal footing past that first merit. And even in lowman situation, again MOST mages who aren't afraid of a bit of work on their job sub SCH or RDM, both having dispel. So we really need to stop talking about low man vs alliance, cause any decent group of either camp is going to have a non-THF dispel.

Last paragraph not really directed at you, btw. Unless you really believe 2+ merits in AS are on equal footing as feint and AC, but you didn't say that it just "sounds like it" which is worthless on the net.





I don't think summary means what you think it does sir.

Edited, Jun 14th 2011 11:31pm by ElvaanTHF

Man I miss Archain's posts too.

Banality's point that having a dispel vs not having one as an infinite improvement is the best and most salient argument for having at least 1 in AS; in fact it is the correct observation for most thf wondering what to merit. I'll just say I never ever had the occasion to need AS and so it was infinitely useless o.O

Also you guys are missing the point about the 20s thing (which is no big deal). Its that I could simply turn around and achieve the functionality of a cat2 merit and in fact the functionality was better because I could do that more than once every five minutes. Further, 20s of extra DD every 5min would not have helped win against Haz--- because thief would have been destroyed very fast against him and solo is about preparation, rhythm, and timing not 20s of extra dd over a long fight. As it was, I only lasted till ~62% before he got the better of me >>

I'll throw this out there too: isn't an extra minute of -50% evasion better than any other cat2 combo that doesn't include 5/5 feint? Or is that extra minute marginal as well. Personally on nm and in general, feint is UP.

Edit: I think the best thing about Archain was he showed what thief was capable of in a time where everyone thought thief was hit for TH and gtfo of ally. Really inspirational and helped me keep pushing for greatness.







Edited, Jun 15th 2011 4:16am by Shirakx

I personally found myself bot using feint much. So I dropped it to 1 for AS merits. Not like merits are hard to get. If mob get evasion again I will just swap them back.

AS merits are fun. It may not always be the most useful, but it is always fun to steal a buff. And merited beyond 1 merit it is the most accurate steal in ffxi.

I just wanted to add this one from Banalaty's post cause it is funny. Just know that I agree with most of what you say.



This is actually one of the worst times to try to steal a buff. I inevitably find myself losing my steal altogether because by the time I know a mob is putting up ice spikes, I've already meleed those spikes and gotten paralyzed. Then I lose my steal to paralyze. Happens 123% of the time for me.... :D

No I'm not.

Still. Missing. The. Point.