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#52 Jun 13 2011 at 12:32 PM Rating: Good
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Not to add to the flames Eaglestrike, but Nebo1 also specifically said that he is using RR/GH/SS for atmas, which means that he doesn't have 35% TA rate. At most he has probably 16%, since with a Twash/Daka he probably isn't offhanding a Triplus dagger. On WS he is probably still at 10% due to equipment swapping.

For my merits, I have 5/5 Feint, 4/5 AC, 1/5 AS. Personally I don't use either AC or AS very often. The best utility I have found for AS was recently when I was low manning Blanga, I would occasionally get his attack buff from him. Quite often his very next TP move would be Triumphant Roar again. Don't get me wrong, I much preferred that to Terror Eye/claw attack of drainage. There are arguments for both, I am seriously considering dropping my AS merit myself. The only reason I haven't is I don't really ride my AC timer either. Ambush is totally useless to me as I am quite often the first one to the hate cap on whatever we are fighting.
#53 Jun 13 2011 at 1:19 PM Rating: Decent
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Dispelling mobs never lasts.... that's why you have to KEEP dispelling them. And aura steal just isn't capable of doing that in a practical manner.


My conclusion exactly.

One has the choice between two nifty/fun sub-par options. I chose 5/5 feint 5/5 assassin's charge because I like damage, and at least its guaranteed to work every 5min.

I look at it like this, (with a grain of salt):

At 4/5 (7:30min) ac it would stack every 4th feint.

At 5/5 (5min) ac it stacks every 3rd feint with room/time for positioning etc.

That's (insert some significant percentage) more super-ws's.

Steal/Despoil/Aura Steal just plain aren't functional at 5min recast for the tiny benefit they give, I boycott them except for claiming purposes (opinion).
#54 Jun 13 2011 at 1:53 PM Rating: Decent
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Skubsteve wrote:
SES wrote:
3) In such a case you either need a dispeller and you're still helping them out, OR you just removed 65(?) defense from the creature, I do believe that's more than an acid bolt does, hrm.


That's like the 3rd thing in this thread you've said about acid bolts that leads me to believe you don't know how they even work.

The acid bolt effect REMOVES a defensive buff and APPLIES a defensive debuff. It overwrites. So it removes the 65 (whatever) defense and then some. They can be used as often as needed. Given using aura steal vs. an acid bolt for the case of a defensive boost, you would be better served using an acid bolt (subject to terms and conditions).


This shows you don't know what is going on. There are different classifications of buffs. There's a Defense Boost buff (like Cocoon) and a Defense Down debuff (like acid bolts). These buffs are mutually exclusive. But then there is protect. It's a separate defense boost. You can have a defense down effect on you while you still have protect, go out and try it.

My comment was to make fun that Melphina was claiming removing Protect IV was useless, when just above it was stated how amazing acid bolts are, when mobs only have 400-450 defense (unless they're PLD creatures and such and many mobs may still be in the 350-400 range) and acid bolts would only be worth 40-50 defense loss when protect IV is 65 defense or so.
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#55 Jun 13 2011 at 2:15 PM Rating: Decent
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SirEaglestrike wrote:
My comment was to make fun that Melphina was claiming removing Protect IV was useless, when just above it was stated how amazing acid bolts are, when mobs only have 400-450 defense (unless they're PLD creatures and such and many mobs may still be in the 350-400 range) and acid bolts would only be worth 40-50 defense loss when protect IV is 65 defense or so.


Anything that can use protect on itself is going to keep applying it if you remove it. But also, things that can use protect also usually have more than one buff. You can't choose what you get, and you can only attempt to use it once every 5 minutes. And if the monster has items you have a chance of getting those instead.

I've always thought it was a good idea. They just didn't implement it properly. Instead they crippled it to the point that it's just a Gimmick to me.
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#56 Jun 13 2011 at 2:16 PM Rating: Excellent
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Their argument though is that with acid bolts you can take 45-50 def from every mob, but Aura steal only allows you to do it AT MOST every 3-5 mobs that you fight, and even then, it depends on if aura steal takes the "right" buff.
#57 Jun 13 2011 at 2:21 PM Rating: Decent
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SES wrote:
This shows you don't know what is going on.


No, your sh*tty argument is still sh*tty.

Protect IV is 55 defense.

420 is the given def for "average" mobs (from Kinematics comparison thread here).

475 * .125 = 59 (truncated)

So still use acid bolts and stop talking out of your behind.


Also, Nebo and Meldi gave the other practical reasons in the meantime.
#58 Jun 13 2011 at 2:32 PM Rating: Decent
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Nebo1 wrote:
Anything that can use protect on itself is going to keep applying it if you remove it. But also, things that can use protect also usually have more than one buff. You can't choose what you get, and you can only attempt to use it once every 5 minutes. And if the monster has items you have a chance of getting those instead.


They will not likely be applying it again right away. That's not how mobs work in FFXI. They only cast every 15s or so, and somewhat randomly between their spellbook of which to cast.

And did they buff acid bolts since back in the day? You guys speak as if you just shoot once and it has defense down forever. How they used to work is it required a gearset to have a good chance to land. Then you needed the proc to also actually go off. And then it would also wear every so often. Did they change this like sneak/invis and make it a set duration and high proc rate or something? Because if not, I'm still not seeing it worth losing 15 inventory slots and a bunch of melee swings to keep them up.

Also, you can still acid bolt while aura stealing stuff. So it's not like this is Aura Steal vs xbow usage.

Edited, Jun 13th 2011 4:41pm by SirEaglestrike
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#59 Jun 13 2011 at 2:36 PM Rating: Decent
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They proc well on most things that aren't specifically wind resistant. Racc gear is required on high level mobs but we have plenty of that.

They last for a minute or so.
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#60 Jun 13 2011 at 2:46 PM Rating: Good
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Now that our primary merit prey is not colibri, Acid bolts are back to nearly 100% proc for me when I use them. Just like before the buff lasts about 30-60 seconds for me, which is usually long enough to do what needs done. NMs are a different story, as they have always been, but even some of them aren't bad to use acid bolts on. I mostly use my Raider's Boomerang though, it is just less of a hassle.
#61 Jun 13 2011 at 2:51 PM Rating: Decent
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Meldi wrote:
Now that our primary merit prey is not colibri, Acid bolts are back to nearly 100% proc for me when I use them. Just like before the buff lasts about 30-60 seconds for me, which is usually long enough to do what needs done. NMs are a different story, as they have always been, but even some of them aren't bad to use acid bolts on. I mostly use my Raider's Boomerang though, it is just less of a hassle.


And this is the main place Aura Steal is useful, against NM's, who have no item to steal and you may or may not have another dispel around. And NM's have a large variety of buffs which impact things in some way. Not just evasion/defense boosts but accuracy boosts, attack boosts, magic attack boosts, etc.

Against normal creatures using consumables isn't worth the cost, imo. I just go /dnc to save on shihei too. I wouldn't care for acid bolts here as the mobs die so fast anyway it really does not matter.
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#62 Jun 13 2011 at 3:17 PM Rating: Good
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You are just going to have to accept that a lot of thieves wont agree with you eaglestrike. 1 dispel per NM battle isn't as "useful" as you say. Despite that, there is really only one crippling buff nowadays, evasion bonus. With abyssea so crit heavy, yeah def buffs slow things down, but you don't even really have to dispel it anymore. Evasion buffs are much more potent, and to tell the truth, feint does much more to combat that than aura steal does. And on a much shorter timer too.

Other thieves have wieghed the cost of going 5/5 AC over 4/5 AC 1/5 AS, and they have found the loss of AS acceptable. Others have not. Both are valid paths to chose, and neither will significantly impact the outcome of battle.
#63 Jun 13 2011 at 3:20 PM Rating: Default
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I've long since accepted that people do things poorly. But I still let them know as such.
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#64 Jun 13 2011 at 3:25 PM Rating: Good
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Just because their decision is different from yours does not mean they, nor you, have chosen poorly.

Edited, Jun 13th 2011 4:25pm by Meldi
#65 Jun 13 2011 at 3:50 PM Rating: Decent
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I maxed Sneak Attack, Triple Attack, Feint and went 1-4 on Aura Steal-Assassin's Charge.

Why? Because I wanted to. (and if you try to argue semantics about what is going to do more damage, I'll change to Warrior and beat my own Thief damage no matter what thief merits or gear I have.)
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#66 Jun 13 2011 at 4:09 PM Rating: Default
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Meldi wrote:
Just because their decision is different from yours does not mean they, nor you, have chosen poorly.

Edited, Jun 13th 2011 4:25pm by Meldi


Sometimes this is true, sometimes it is not. Some things are grey areas, some are not. Typically, there's what you want to do which is your decision and then there is what is best, which is typically a clear cut thing.
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#67 Jun 13 2011 at 4:32 PM Rating: Good
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SirEaglestrike wrote:
Meldi wrote:
Just because their decision is different from yours does not mean they, nor you, have chosen poorly.

Edited, Jun 13th 2011 4:25pm by Meldi


Sometimes this is true, sometimes it is not. Some things are grey areas, some are not. Typically, there's what you want to do which is your decision and then there is what is best, which is typically a clear cut thing.


This is one of those instances where the decision is not one of those clear cut things. Which is what the other posters are trying to get you to understand. Many of them have tried both, and acknowledge that your point has some validity, however, you refuse to give any credence to their experience with both. The fact of the matter is, you are the one being narrow minded, not them.
#68 Jun 13 2011 at 4:54 PM Rating: Decent
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Meldi wrote:
SirEaglestrike wrote:
Meldi wrote:
Just because their decision is different from yours does not mean they, nor you, have chosen poorly.

Edited, Jun 13th 2011 4:25pm by Meldi


Sometimes this is true, sometimes it is not. Some things are grey areas, some are not. Typically, there's what you want to do which is your decision and then there is what is best, which is typically a clear cut thing.


This is one of those instances where the decision is not one of those clear cut things. Which is what the other posters are trying to get you to understand. Many of them have tried both, and acknowledge that your point has some validity, however, you refuse to give any credence to their experience with both. The fact of the matter is, you are the one being narrow minded, not them.


Not really, there are people here being illogical about it. Nebo1, who originally posted it, has admitted throughout this thread that he now "hates" aura steal, after having it merited fully the whole time. And there are other people here who "hate" Aura Steal or are "boycotting" Aura Steal. That's not logical and doesn't make any sense. You really think the Devs are going to see that a handful of people don't use a group II merit and will alter it? Hi2u Warcry merits.
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#69 Jun 13 2011 at 5:56 PM Rating: Decent
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I don't think anyone here is arguing for cat2 change.

Thieves get 5 Triple Attack and 1+ Feint, then whatever else they please according to their playstyle; End of Thief Merit Story.

<<<

5 TA
5 Flee
5 AC
5 Feint

<<< Very Happy Thief.
#70 Jun 13 2011 at 6:04 PM Rating: Decent
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SirEaglestrike wrote:
Meldi wrote:
SirEaglestrike wrote:
Meldi wrote:
Just because their decision is different from yours does not mean they, nor you, have chosen poorly.

Edited, Jun 13th 2011 4:25pm by Meldi


Sometimes this is true, sometimes it is not. Some things are grey areas, some are not. Typically, there's what you want to do which is your decision and then there is what is best, which is typically a clear cut thing.


This is one of those instances where the decision is not one of those clear cut things. Which is what the other posters are trying to get you to understand. Many of them have tried both, and acknowledge that your point has some validity, however, you refuse to give any credence to their experience with both. The fact of the matter is, you are the one being narrow minded, not them.


Not really, there are people here being illogical about it. Nebo1, who originally posted it, has admitted throughout this thread that he now "hates" aura steal, after having it merited fully the whole time. And there are other people here who "hate" Aura Steal or are "boycotting" Aura Steal. That's not logical and doesn't make any sense. You really think the Devs are going to see that a handful of people don't use a group II merit and will alter it? Hi2u Warcry merits.


This is true. I don't like the ability (or rather, the way it was implemented).

Having said that, you are praising it with usefulness that it really does not have in all practicality. It's a gimmick. It steals something. Its cute.

It's not one of those things you tell someone they are a fool for not meriting. That....is foolish.
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#71 Jun 13 2011 at 6:23 PM Rating: Decent
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Nebo1 wrote:
This is true. I don't like the ability (or rather, the way it was implemented).

Having said that, you are praising it with usefulness that it really does not have in all practicality. It's a gimmick. It steals something. Its cute.

It's not one of those things you tell someone they are a fool for not meriting. That....is foolish.


You're being called a fool because of the huge difference there is between 1/5 AS 4/5 AC and 5/5 AC 0/5 AS. The absorb part of AS is pure lol and personal choice, just like having more than 1/5 AC is. But every THF should at least unlock AS, AC and Feint. You used to "need" to max Feint but that is questionable now as this thread has brought up.

But you still go 5/5 TA, 1 in Feint/AC/AS and the rest is your personal choice. The advantage of AS is much bigger than the other things to spend merits on.
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#72 Jun 13 2011 at 8:25 PM Rating: Decent
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SirEaglestrike wrote:
The advantage of AS is much bigger than the other things to spend merits on.


lol. It really really isn't.
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#73 Jun 13 2011 at 10:54 PM Rating: Good
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This is getting really overblown.

For all those who are so dead set on 5/5 AC+5/5 feint I ask you this:

How much (in percent) does going from 4/5 AC to 5/5 AC raise your OVERALL damage?

Think about that for a minute. REALLY think about it.

This means that under PERFECT conditions you get 3 ACs every 15 minutes vs 2 ACs at 4/5. That is ONE more triple every 15 min. 1 more triple that you have a 10 to ~40% chance of happening ANYWAY (depending on gear/abyssea or not/atmas chosen etc).

ONE triple more every 15 minutes (that could have happened anyway) under perfect conditions. This means:

*You are fighting a mob every time it comes up
*You have TP EVERY time it comes up
*You have SA/TA up (if you are stacking this WS) when it comes up
*You can actually WS on the dot when its up. (not holding back waiting for procs. Not spaming cyclone to get red, not holding back for hate or any other reason)
*(Random other reasons people dont/cant WS when they want)

Comon people. This is not some HULK SMASH huge bonus to your damage. This is a single bit of oomph that can naturally happen anyway going from 2 up to 3 every FIFTEEN minutes IF you spam it every 5 min.

What are you REALLY giving up by dropping to a 4/5 from a 5/5? Everyone who is pro-5/5 is justifying AC/Feint based on the power of AC/Feint as if you cannot use it at ALL with 4/5.

dropping to 4/5 in AC is completely unnoticable in a parse. It is really not that big a deal people. You will NEVER notice AC it in any parse (feint you could if you are on monsterously evasive mobs for long periods which is rare and wierd). Particularly if you factor in that NO ONE uses it every 5 min on the dot. Say what you want here, not a soul in this thread spams it non stop based on all the reasons above and more. And you can and will triple anyway quite often.

Having done gear/weapon/DPS/WS analysis by the numbers in this forum for years based around thf, (and being extremely pro-ThfDD as long as I have played) i can tell you with absolute certainty, the difference between 4/5 and 5/5 is entirely in your head. It is completely unnoticeable in the grand scheme of damage under ideal conditions. Toss in a practical situation and it might as well not exist. It wont make a dent in anything but your psyche.

As much as SES is overstating the benifits of AS by a bit, some of the posts about AC in here are a complete fantasy by comparison.

4/5-5/5 will not have ANY noticable impact (even in a parse) on overall damage in an in-game scenario beyond a placebo to make you feel better about it. There is virutally no tangible benefit to it. Seriously.

Just stop and think about what you really 'sacrifice' dropping a single merit out of feint/AC before you just dismiss AS like a redheaded stepchild. No parse will ever miss it.

Edited, Jun 14th 2011 12:57am by Banalaty
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#74 Jun 14 2011 at 1:24 AM Rating: Decent
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Banalaty,

Its the same way with AS, it offers like 0 benefit in the practical game. Today I was soling Haz--- whatever on dnc and he put up Thorn Song and I was like, oh sh*t! I could have used AS here. But... I was on Dnc, so I just turned around for 20sec and it went away... turning around had a (20sec) vs (5min) more utility than Aura Steal LOL.

However, when I want to dot my i's and cross my t's for a ws, im 2:30min more likely (or whatever) to have everything lined up which is a hellofalot better for me when I never ever need AS. Sure some day stars may align and all mages dispel timers are down and the tank has 30hp and a spikes was just put up and I could have saved the alliance with my super secret whoa its so lucky the thief had a dispel!

I mean, that's how I'd quantify AS's usefulness, and then I'd think that that ally wasn't very prepared to win the battle on a thief 5min AS. How do you quantify AS? Solo its got too long a timer, and in party you have mages...

I personally understand your point which is why I take all this with a "grain of salt."





Edited, Jun 14th 2011 3:40am by Shirakx
#75 Jun 14 2011 at 2:05 AM Rating: Default
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Shirakx wrote:
Banalaty,

Its the same way with AS, it offers like 0 benefit in the practical game. Today I was soling Haz--- whatever on dnc and he put up Thorn Song and I was like, oh sh*t! I could have used AS here. But... I was on Dnc, so I just turned around for 20sec and it went away... turning around had a (20sec) vs (5min) more utility than Aura Steal LOL.

However, when I want to dot my i's and cross my t's for a ws, im 2:30min more likely (or whatever) to have everything lined up which is a hellofalot better for me when I never ever need AS. Sure some day stars may align and all mages dispel timers are down and the tank has 30hp and a spikes was just put up and I could have saved the alliance with my super secret whoa its so lucky the thief had a dispel!

I mean, that's how I'd quantify AS's usefulness, and then I'd think that that ally wasn't very prepared to win the battle on a thief 5min AS. How do you quantify AS? Solo its got too long a timer, and in party you have mages...

I personally understand your point which is why I take all this with a "grain of salt."





Edited, Jun 14th 2011 3:40am by Shirakx


...

Are you serious? You just stated that if you had AS, you would've been able to melee for 20s. That's a good bit of damage and practically a whole other weapon skill. But you'd give up the chance to do that to triple attack one weapon skill more every 2.5min?

You are confusing here though. In one line you talk about soloing, in the next you talk about mages in your alliance. Well, I guess that isn't confusing, in a low-man setting AS is useful, so you use that as your example to make fun of AS, in the alliance setting AS doesn't have as much utility, so you use that to show it is "useless".

Never mind that super crazy stars have to align situation where you're soloing on your THF and you do NOT have to turn around for 20s because you just dispelled the spikes!
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#76 Jun 14 2011 at 2:45 AM Rating: Decent
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Yes Eaglestrike, but 1 min later or less it put up spikes again... its like you're wearing some sort of filtered glasses.

Also, don't twist my words, reminds me of a jack-in-the-box. Most people here are more mature and wised-up these days.

You can have the soapbox, it really doesn't matter to me what other thief merit and something as trivial as AS vs AC isn't game-breaking enough to drag on.
#77 Jun 14 2011 at 2:57 AM Rating: Default
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Shirakx wrote:
Yes Eaglestrike, but 1 min later or less it put up spikes again... its like you're wearing some sort of filtered glasses.

Also, don't twist my words, reminds me of a jack-in-the-box. Most people here are more mature and wised-up these days.

You can have the soapbox, it really doesn't matter to me what other thief merit and something as trivial as AS vs AC isn't game-breaking enough to drag on.


And as Banalaty said to you all, so are you guys about AC. You're still pointing out a situation where having access to AS gets you an additional 20 seconds of time to melee a creature. And to note, these 20s are also windows where AC would just be wasted using since you're not meleeing and such.
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#78 Jun 14 2011 at 6:45 AM Rating: Decent
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Edit: See Banalaty's post. lol

He more eloquently says what I have already said, and what Eagle has been saying. The arguments given against AS would work if we were talking about 5/5 AS vs 5/5 Ass Charge, but we're not. The gain in such an incredibly marginal difference from getting a 5minute timer instead of a 7.5 timer is never going to outweigh the ability to dispel any buff.

Every argument I've seen so far is either incredibly hypocritical or a strawman.

1. Calling AS worthless because it's on a 5 minute timer, when you're meriting a 7.5 minute ability down to 5 minutes.
2. Saying you can use acid bolts, which only work on defense up buffs and can be used with aura steal as well.
3. Saying Dispelling a debuff isn't a big increase while pretending that 1 more TA proc every 15 minutes max is.
etc.

Like I said before, if you REALLY want that 5 minute timer for that incredibly marginal increase you're probably better off going 4/5 feint.

Edited, Jun 14th 2011 8:59am by Deadgye
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#79 Jun 14 2011 at 8:01 AM Rating: Good
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First off, I have mostly started posting only because this is the most active the forums have been in a long while. I miss this... lol

Second

Deadgye wrote:

The gain in such an incredibly marginal difference from getting a 5minute timer instead of a 7.5 timer is never going to outweigh the ability to dispel any buff.


This is where you are wrong. Some people have obviously found that for them they are willing to lose the ability to dispel for a reduced timer on AC. The fact of the matter is, both 5 minute AC timer and 5 minute dispel are extremely marginal in their worth. Neither one will have a noticeable impact on the outcome of a battle. For some, the opportunity cost of losing dispel IS worth giving up.
#80 Jun 14 2011 at 9:55 AM Rating: Good
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Personal preference is FINE. But dont justify your personal 'preference' by skewing the facts. Example:

I merited 5/5 AC, 1/5 AS, 4/5 Feint. I KNOW for a fact that a 2 min feint (over the 4min i have now) is vastly superior from a functional standpoint than 7.5 down to 5min AC. Feint up 75% of the time (30 sec duration, 2min recast) is WAAY better than 25% of the time (30 sec duration, 4 min recast at 4/5 merits).

The last merit DOUBLES the effectiveness of one of the most potent abilities in the entire game! But, I got my twashtar and fell in love with AC+Rudras storm (its sexy!)

But still, i merited 5/5 AC and 4/5 feint because of 'personal preference'. That is FINE. But I am not going to walk around telling everyone that 4/5 feint+5/5 AC is more powerful than the other way round by twisting things. It isnt. But I am ok with that. I acknowledge that and i play happily anyway.

I have nothing against personal preference even if it is not the 'best' or 'ideal' choice. I do it because i LIKE AC+Rudras. And if anyone asks me about my merits i will say 2 things:

1: Reccommend 4/5 AC, 5/5 feint, 1/5 AS. Its the 'best' from a functional standpoint and if needbe explain exactly why in very real terms.
2: Say my merits are not the 'best' but I have more FUN with AC.

Similarly, on rng i am merited 5/5 recycle and 4/5 snapshot. Obviously 5/5 snap is 'better' for killing things. I know this. There is no arguing this point. But i am cheap and lazy so i did the extra recycle. But I wont tell anyone that its the BEST setup because that would simply be untrue. I am happy with my 5/5 recycle, but if someone asks what is the 'best' I will never recommend ANY recycle because it does not enhance anything about rng. I wont try to justify it beyond anything more than 'im cheap'. I will never justify/rationalize it as if it is better for performing rng duties in any measurable way.

Fun =/= best. Best is a quantitative measurement (using hard numbers. EG: Which is higher, 1 or 2?). What is most fun/personal Pref is a qualitative measurement (What is better, Blue or Red?) that is extremely subjective and has no effective measurement tool. Do not mix up the two.

1/5 AS, 4/5 AC, 5/5 feint will have the most benefit in the most situations. It is the most universal setup that will prepare you in any situation. Never will you use that and say "damn i wish i had X JA. To bad I didnt merit it" while still maintaining the highest DD potential available while being well rounded enough to cover anything (ie: take the smallest hit to DD, 4/5 AC, and open up a unique utility ability). If all you do is farm blm skellies with your entire playtime, then yes, you will have a lot of bone chips and wish you had 5/5 AC, but this game is not that narrow.

Fact: You do not have to dispel EVERYTHING for dispel to be useful. That is ~30 sec or whatever till it puts it back up that you DONT have it up. If it spends another TP/Magic move rebuffing, that is one less dangerous TP/Magic move. EG: Constantly dispelling a pixie means it just spams Pro/shell/Regen/SS instead of aeroga 4. recasting 1 buff every 5 min is one less dangerous spell every 5 min. Its one less dangerous TP move replaced by a buff TP move. 1 dispel is better than no dispel no matter what the timer is.

Fact: AC is the most marginal DD boost available (between feint/AC). Reducing the timer makes you smile, but the parse wont even notice it. Seriously. It is exceptionally tiny. We are talking a couple hundred points of damage at best in a 15 minute window. How many THOUSANDS upon THOUSANDS of damage can we do in 15 friggin minutes. (after you remove the probability that you would have tripled that WS anyway without AC and only if you use it on the dot every 5 min which also doesnt happen). Its a drop in the bucket, and the best candidate to take a hit for AS as you loose the least.

Fact: Dispel can be used if you have mages or not. Solo or group. With and without acids. It can dispel things mages cant. It is instant and can be used much faster by a melee on a mob than a mage in the middle of casting freeze 2. It costs no MP. It costs no attention/cast time that they can use for something else by your mages.

Those are statements of fact that cannot be changed, and each can be measured (though with some difficulty in creating an accurate model, still possible, and MORE than possible to estimate/ballpark a real benefit).

Quantitative/Qualitative. Dont mix them up. Dont try to tell people red is better than blue by using numbers. It is an exercise in futility. But, you can tell me you LIKE red all day long and I will respect your opinion. Try to tell my red is 50% better than blue and Im calling boolsheet.
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#81 Jun 14 2011 at 10:17 AM Rating: Default
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Meldi wrote:
First off, I have mostly started posting only because this is the most active the forums have been in a long while. I miss this... lol


You're welcome.
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#82 Jun 14 2011 at 10:30 AM Rating: Decent
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This is where you are wrong. Some people have obviously found that for them they are willing to lose the ability to dispel for a reduced timer on AC. The fact of the matter is, both 5 minute AC timer and 5 minute dispel are extremely marginal in their worth. Neither one will have a noticeable impact on the outcome of a battle. For some, the opportunity cost of losing dispel IS worth giving up.


Take a point out of feint if you're THAT obsessed with having 5/5 Ass Charge.

Quote:
First off, I have mostly started posting only because this is the most active the forums have been in a long while. I miss this... lol

If I can have my way I'll be helping more threads like this happen. We need moar discussion!

Edited, Jun 14th 2011 12:42pm by Deadgye
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#83 Jun 14 2011 at 11:01 AM Rating: Decent
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I think what has y'alls dander up is the misunderstanding that people are saying 5/5AC is better than having one feint. This is misreading. It may be better in personal opinion, but noone is saying this as fact, just explaining personal preference then getting drawn into reactionary 1 AS fanactic posts as if 5/5 AC people are holding a knife to their throats telling them which to merit.

I don't care what you merit, because its marginal all around, but you very much care what I merit because its marginal all around. Strange and fruitless.

Every post I've tried to show that its not a big deal, just an opionion that AS isn't very useful to some playstyle as have others here, and the counterargumentalists are flipping out thinking the world is going to end if you don't merit AS.

It's just not that serious an issue and the reactionary obtuseness is actually funny.
#84 Jun 14 2011 at 12:11 PM Rating: Good
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Other post was to long anyway. More examples because I like them.

How I am reading this thread:

What should I merit? The 2010 Camaro or 2011 Mustang?

"Mustangs are better!"
"Camaro are better!"
"Mustangs 'feel' better when you drive them!"
"Camaros V6 have 8 more horsepower!"
"Mustangs drive better!"
"Camaros have a higher governator speeds"
"Mustangs have a stronger history!"
"Camaros have better gas milage!"
"Mustangs have better factory colors!"(if your into crayon box primary colors xD)

Any debate like this will just go on forever because both sides are using different qualifications about 'best'. Apples to oranges. How do you weigh 4/10ths of a second faster in the 0-60 vs a aesthetic design you like better? You dont.

How do you compare the 'feeling' of an AC for a big number that makes you go "EEEEE!" like a little school girl (even though it wont do anything really in the big picture of damage) vs the functional bonus of removing spikes/def/haste/eva boost/MAB/stoneskin/etc instantly on command. You dont. You cant compare a feeling vs a number in any practical terms. Its apples and oranges.

So what are our options? We reframe the debate into something measurable or we yell and scream about blue being better than red for 20 pages.

Tangent: I do miss activity in the forum. I hate that the only things that get any attention are rather negative and fighting over semantic BS because there is nothing else to do ; ;

Guess we will have about a week of 'stuff' to talk about when 95 rolls around :S
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#85 Jun 14 2011 at 12:19 PM Rating: Default
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Quote:
Tangent: I do miss activity in the forum. I hate that the only things that get any attention are rather negative and fighting over semantic BS because there is nothing else to do ; ;


Psst, this was always what got most forum activity going, at least on the THF forums.

Me vs RVW with occasional Nynja sightings then Archain comes in to shut everyone up with the most well-written posts of all-time.
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#86 Jun 14 2011 at 1:13 PM Rating: Good
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Deadgye wrote:
Quote:
This is where you are wrong. Some people have obviously found that for them they are willing to lose the ability to dispel for a reduced timer on AC. The fact of the matter is, both 5 minute AC timer and 5 minute dispel are extremely marginal in their worth. Neither one will have a noticeable impact on the outcome of a battle. For some, the opportunity cost of losing dispel IS worth giving up.


Take a point out of feint if you're THAT obsessed with having 5/5 Ass Charge.

Quote:
First off, I have mostly started posting only because this is the most active the forums have been in a long while. I miss this... lol

If I can have my way I'll be helping more threads like this happen. We need moar discussion!

Edited, Jun 14th 2011 12:42pm by Deadgye


Like I said above, I have 5/5 Feint, 4/5 AC, 1/5 AS. I am not in a hurry to change this for a few reasons. 1. I use TA atmas. 2. I use Evisceration. 3. I like having it "personal preference."

Edit: I would never take my 5/5 Feint away, I actually do ride that timer religiously.

If I ever go for a Twashtar or a Daka, or Vajra, I might consider switching to 5/5 AC though, because it would be fun, and because both paths are about the same. See below.

Banalaty: The problem with your Mustang/Camaro argument is that one clearly has the advantage in every area (Whether or not that is true I have no idea because I know zip about cars). AC and AS are clearly not that way. Both have their benefits that they bring to the table, and both have their cons.

The arguments for AC are more detailed than the ones for AS in most of this thread.
Hey!! I get 33% more TAs guaranteed than I did before!! vs. Dispel.... /drool!

My problem with the people vehemently arguing FOR AS is because they refuse to acknowledge ANY benefit for those that chose to merit AC all the way. AC does provide a benefit. ACs benefit from 4/5 to 5/5 is extremely marginal. AS's benefit is ALSO extremely marginal, and yet some arguing in the thread are treating it like the second coming of the 2hd patch.

Edited, Jun 14th 2011 2:14pm by Meldi
#87 Jun 14 2011 at 1:41 PM Rating: Default
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Meldi wrote:
The arguments for AC are more detailed than the ones for AS in most of this thread.
Hey!! I get 33% more TAs guaranteed than I did before!! vs. Dispel.... /drool!

My problem with the people vehemently arguing FOR AS is because they refuse to acknowledge ANY benefit for those that chose to merit AC all the way. AC does provide a benefit. ACs benefit from 4/5 to 5/5 is extremely marginal. AS's benefit is ALSO extremely marginal, and yet some arguing in the thread are treating it like the second coming of the 2hd patch.


Except the summary of my posts is: "AC gives you an extra 1k damage per cooldown, that's not really that much." And the summary of the pro-AC posts are "Dispel is useless, even though it would've been useful in this situation but I didn't have it LOL".

My posts have had numbers involved, whereas most of the opposition consists of "lolno".
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#88 Jun 14 2011 at 1:57 PM Rating: Default
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Quote:
My posts have had numbers involved, whereas most of the opposition consists of "lolno".


This, how you came to an opposite observation confuses me.
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#89 Jun 14 2011 at 3:12 PM Rating: Good
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They are both generally marginal. None of these are OMGBBQWTF bonuses without equal in all of vanadiel. But, as both are minor in the big picture, I look at the difference between lowering a timer on an existing TA JA for a marginal DD benefit and the incalculably better (quite literally) benefit of going from ZERO dispel to ONE dispel. I say incalculably tongue in cheek because 1 dispel is infinitely more than 0 dispels, while 7.5 down to 5 is just a % increase in an action that happens naturally anyway.

Having 1 GREAT ability (feint), and 2 abilities (4/5AC and AS) is quite different than droping a unique utility option for a nominal (and mundane) boost to DD.

This thread reminds me of a great many conversations (in forums and in-game) about stuff like rajas vs other COP rings, or Suppa vs other divine might earrings.

"Abyssal is better for darks! It does an eency meency bit more damage!"
"Suppa is more useful for more situations and has a unique effect you cannot replicate"

Most will agree that unless your ONLY job is drk and/or Blm that suppa is the way to go because it offers a special ability that nothing else does.

"(Tamas/Satva) is better than Rajas for (mage/tank jobs)"
"But tamas/satvas stats can be replaced. 5stp is irreplaceable on the ring slot AND only WS use both Str and dex simultaneously and cannot be 'swapped' to max effect unlike int/mind (there is no spell that has both int and mnd modifiers)"

They are minor benfits, but one is unique to thf in any format (instant dispel), while the other is completely bland AND nominal. Its a hair more damage. Whoopdee doo. Damage is not hard to come by in any measurement. You can think of it as diminishing returns like acc, etc. When your at 94% acc, adding 2 more is nominal. When we are capable of rather obscene damage as it is, how valuable is a TINY TINY bit more? Near zero. Id rather not break down how much damage a thf can do in a 15 min span then add 0.6 to 0.9 of a single Triple (less than 1 triple because natural triple rate ranges from from ~40% at best, 10% at worst that it would happen anyway without AC). I can tell you without spending the next 30 min crunching numbers that it is negligable at best. When i say less than 1 extra triple every 15 min is barely a placebo for your damage i mean it. I cannot emphasize enough how unimportant LESS than 1 triple every 15 minutes will make (and that still assumes perfect use of AC on the nose. Reality=even LESS).

That 20 seconds of turning around? That is 20 seconds of melee damage and TP. Its more gain than 0.6>0.9 of ONE triple will do in that entire 15 minute window by miles. Every time you are paralyzed form spikes you could have stolen, once you add up the melee damage and the TP lost, it matches AS. Every time you dispel protect for 30 seconds, you gain more damage than the last AC merit (heaven forbid your not the only melee).

This is only the damage side. That excludes the potential savings defensively of having a mob recast a buff instead of a damaging spell or the MP/Cast time/Attention saving on your mages every time you dispel something that they dont have to and can do something else with that MP/Cast time/Attention. It IS worth it to dispel a buff even if it only lasts for 20-30 seconds. Sometimes it is far MORE worth it if the buff is particularly nasty (rare but it happens). Sometimes less (lol Bonchips on mage skellies).

Are we really so hardon for personal epeen damage these days (when it is the easiest to come by compared to any time in FFXI history) that we are willing to get some tiny fraction of 1% more damage in exchange for utility and general usefulness for party and solo play? Are we just justifying our personal epeen factor at teh expense of utility? Are we all going to swap our suppas for abyssal when we have drk+3 other DW jobs leveled because it is a LITTLE better for 1 specific purpose? Are we going to drop our rajas for the more pigeonholed specific use satvas?

When did we decide a miniscule amount of damage is better than general utility AND start justify it with anything other than "i like epeen"?
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#90 Jun 14 2011 at 3:50 PM Rating: Good
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Banalaty wrote:
"(Tamas/Satva) is better than Rajas for (mage/tank jobs)"
"But tamas/satvas stats can be replaced. 5stp is irreplaceable on the ring slot AND only WS use both Str and dex simultaneously and cannot be 'swapped' to max effect unlike int/mind (there is no spell that has both int and mnd modifiers)"
I have no problems with your post(I probably agree, but I'm staying out of this) and it's very well written etc etc.

On that note... some BLU spells use both MND and INT, several of their magical spells do.


Of course, several use other more unorthodox combinations, dex/int, chr, dex, etc, and you'd still have a ton of physical spells that use STR/DEX as well, making the rings equal, but...

[/nitpick]
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#91 Jun 14 2011 at 3:54 PM Rating: Default
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Souji wrote:
Banalaty wrote:
"(Tamas/Satva) is better than Rajas for (mage/tank jobs)"
"But tamas/satvas stats can be replaced. 5stp is irreplaceable on the ring slot AND only WS use both Str and dex simultaneously and cannot be 'swapped' to max effect unlike int/mind (there is no spell that has both int and mnd modifiers)"
I have no problems with your post(I probably agree, but I'm staying out of this) and it's very well written etc etc.

On that note... some BLU spells use both MND and INT, several of their magical spells do.


Of course, several use other more unorthodox combinations, dex/int, chr, dex, etc, and you'd still have a ton of physical spells that use STR/DEX as well, making the rings equal, but...

[/nitpick]


I was going to call you a jerk for your nitpick, but my woman enjoys the avatar, so you may stay.

And this thread is so like the days of old. I pick a fight with someone, we argue about something, then come appear some guys on my side of things that words everything just right to "win"/"end" the argument. Good stuff.
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#92 Jun 14 2011 at 9:29 PM Rating: Decent
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Deadgye wrote:
Take a point out of feint if you're THAT obsessed with having 5/5 Ass Charge.
Edited, Jun 14th 2011 12:42pm by Deadgye


That's the kind of thing people are WTFing at the AS side of this thread. Most of us on both sides know 1/5 AS is more than sufficient, and most of our merits look like a mixture of feint, ac and as. The debate is running into people putting multiple merits on AS on the same level as multiple merits in AC or feint.

Sorry, that's retarded. AS is just NOT on equal footing past that first merit. And even in lowman situation, again MOST mages who aren't afraid of a bit of work on their job sub SCH or RDM, both having dispel. So we really need to stop talking about low man vs alliance, cause any decent group of either camp is going to have a non-THF dispel.

Last paragraph not really directed at you, btw. Unless you really believe 2+ merits in AS are on equal footing as feint and AC, but you didn't say that it just "sounds like it" which is worthless on the net.



SirEaglestrike wrote:

Except the summary of my posts is: "AC gives you an extra 1k damage per cooldown, that's not really that much." And the summary of the pro-AC posts are "Dispel is useless, even though it would've been useful in this situation but I didn't have it LOL".

My posts have had numbers involved, whereas most of the opposition consists of "lolno".


I don't think summary means what you think it does sir.

Edited, Jun 14th 2011 11:31pm by ElvaanTHF
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#93 Jun 14 2011 at 9:59 PM Rating: Default
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Could you point me to a single post in this thread that speaks of ever having more than one point in AS to unlock it? I'd love to know what person posted that, because the entire thread has been about 5/5 feint, 5/5 AC vs 5/5 feint, 4/5 AC, 1/5 AS with the occasional mention of 4/5 feint, 5/5 AC, 1/5 AS.

Should I have said "tl:dr" instead of summary? I suppose it would fit better, but it seems weird to stick it in like that, but I'll try to remember next time.
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#94 Jun 15 2011 at 2:00 AM Rating: Decent
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Man I miss Archain's posts too.

Banality's point that having a dispel vs not having one as an infinite improvement is the best and most salient argument for having at least 1 in AS; in fact it is the correct observation for most thf wondering what to merit. I'll just say I never ever had the occasion to need AS and so it was infinitely useless o.O

Also you guys are missing the point about the 20s thing (which is no big deal). Its that I could simply turn around and achieve the functionality of a cat2 merit and in fact the functionality was better because I could do that more than once every five minutes. Further, 20s of extra DD every 5min would not have helped win against Haz--- because thief would have been destroyed very fast against him and solo is about preparation, rhythm, and timing not 20s of extra dd over a long fight. As it was, I only lasted till ~62% before he got the better of me >>

I'll throw this out there too: isn't an extra minute of -50% evasion better than any other cat2 combo that doesn't include 5/5 feint? Or is that extra minute marginal as well. Personally on nm and in general, feint is UP.

Edit: I think the best thing about Archain was he showed what thief was capable of in a time where everyone thought thief was hit for TH and gtfo of ally. Really inspirational and helped me keep pushing for greatness.







Edited, Jun 15th 2011 4:16am by Shirakx
#95 Jun 15 2011 at 8:42 AM Rating: Good
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I'm sorry Banalaty. I have to disagree with you a bit. I agree with part of what you said, but uniqueness is not a qualifier for everything. You mentioned Suppa vs. all other RoZ earrings and Rajas vs all other CoP rings, but you left out Ethereal vs. all other RoZ/CoP earrings. Its bonus is unique (no other piece of equipment offered a bonus like it at that point in the game), it has some utility, but only for pld or drg mostly. Even soloing rdms went for hollow instead for the enspell enhancement bonus. Uniqueness alone does not qualify a skill/piece of equipment/job trait for meriting. And I then come back to my arguement to begin with.

Banalaty wrote:
They are both generally marginal.


My beef with everything is you can't say "well, 5/5 AC only gives you 1 more guaranteed TA every fifteen minutes," and ignore the fact that AS only allows you to dispel once every 5 minutes. Its not DISPEL!!! /drool, its "I get 3 dispels in 15 minutes. Is that worth only getting 2 guaranteed TAs in 15 minutes?" That is the basis of opportunity cost.
#96 Jun 15 2011 at 8:49 AM Rating: Decent
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I personally found myself bot using feint much. So I dropped it to 1 for AS merits. Not like merits are hard to get. If mob get evasion again I will just swap them back.

AS merits are fun. It may not always be the most useful, but it is always fun to steal a buff. And merited beyond 1 merit it is the most accurate steal in ffxi.
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#97 Jun 15 2011 at 9:03 AM Rating: Decent
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Yeah no one ever said 4/5 to 5/5 AC was some omgwtfbbq enhancement. I think the people that posted here that they merited this way realise this.

The point of contention here is that Aurasteal is also very very marginal, much less consistant, and much less practically useful (for reasons already stated in other posts).

5/5 AC is consistant damage every 5 minutes. Aurasteal is not useful every 5 minutes. Especially when you aren't fighting things that give themselves dispellable buffs.

I had Aurasteal merited for a long long time (both 1/5 and 5/5), and tried to find as many uses for it as I could...I still found myself lacking situations to make use of AS consistantly. And in the situations where I actually could, I found AS wanting due to its recast (Mob uses buff, I dispel, 10 seconds later mob buffs itself again, ME: FFS!!!)

If they fixed Aurasteal I'd be on board in a heart beat. It's just not very useful to me as it exists now.

Edited, Jun 15th 2011 11:05am by Nebo1
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#98 Jun 15 2011 at 9:08 AM Rating: Good
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I just wanted to add this one from Banalaty's post cause it is funny. Just know that I agree with most of what you say.

Banalaty wrote:
Every time you are paralyzed form spikes you could have stolen, once you add up the melee damage and the TP lost, it matches AS.


This is actually one of the worst times to try to steal a buff. I inevitably find myself losing my steal altogether because by the time I know a mob is putting up ice spikes, I've already meleed those spikes and gotten paralyzed. Then I lose my steal to paralyze. Happens 123% of the time for me.... :D
#99SirEaglestrike, Posted: Jun 15 2011 at 9:38 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) And yet you're arguing the amount of damage you can do in 5s is worth more than the damage you can do in these 20s along with the utility role of dispelling.
#100 Jun 15 2011 at 9:46 AM Rating: Decent
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No I'm not.

Still. Missing. The. Point.
#101 Jun 15 2011 at 9:56 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Its not DISPEL!!! /drool, its "I get 3 dispels in 15 minutes. Is that worth only getting 2 guaranteed TAs in 15 minutes?" That is the basis of opportunity cost.


It's really not. If we could create an apples to apples comparison like that this debate would be easy and nice, but that's not possible. When you put a merit into aura steal you are not decreasing a timer. You are giving yourself a functionality. If you're riding timers constantly and mobs have buffs up constantly then yes your scenario comes into play. But only paying attention to that scenario and ignoring all the other ones is being incredibly biased. You have to consider every situation your thief is going to be in. Putting one merit into Aura Steal gives you the ability to dispel when solo. It gives you the ability to take off an evasion boost that the mages weren't going to dispel that decreased the dot of all 6 melees hitting the mob. Etc. Its effectiveness doesn't become completely useless if you don't use it less than every 7.5 minutes.

If we do your comparison and Aura Steal wins, then it's clear who the victor is. But if we do your comparison and Aura Steal loses, it's still not clear which is better.

Quote:
The point of contention here is that Aurasteal is also very very marginal, much less consistent, and much less practically useful (for reasons already stated in other posts).

5/5 AC is consistent damage every 5 minutes. Aurasteal is not useful every 5 minutes. Especially when you aren't fighting things that give themselves dispellable buffs.

We've both agreed slightly, and disagreed slightly. We all concur that both are a marginal increase. However, you are wrong in saying that it's consistent damage every 5 minutes, the ability has only tricked you into thinking that. Every time you use it, and triple attack would have procced anyway, it was useless. This is an observation that you can't make from eyeballing because you can't tell if it would have procced or not. You can only take a mathematical approach and say what percent of the time it'll happen over time.

We've done the math and told you all exactly how small the damage increase actually is. We've made the point that the damage gain you get from one forced TA every 15 minutes is at the very least equaled by dispelling three defense buff or three evasion buff on a mob that doesn't die instantly. (Or 3x other buffs like Shadows) And that was simply if we're the only one attacking it. If multiple people are attacking it then the damage increase from removing that buff multiplies greatly.

And then you can also account for miscellaneous stuff that's harder to measure. Like removing a magical defense buff that increases the damage of the mages. Or removing an attack buff, or a magical attack buff, or an accuracy buff, that increases the MP of the mages indirectly. If you actually end up stealing an attack buff, that's going to end up increasing your damage just as much as Assassin's Charge would have easily.

And don't forget to account for how truly finicky Assassin's Charge is. In order for it to be effective when it's timer ends you need to have either SA or TA ready, and you need to have 100+TP. Every time you don't it's wasted time that makes that last merit useless. Even then, if you manage to do that, it will have done nothing 10-45% of the time.

Quote:
Still. Missing. The. Point.

No. You're ignoring ours.

Edited, Jun 15th 2011 11:57am by Deadgye
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