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THF MeritsFollow

#1 May 30 2011 at 1:30 AM Rating: Decent
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Hello all I finally got around to lvling thf and really like it now that its @ 90 i was wondering what are the best things to merit. Any and all help/explanations are appreciated. Thanks,
Belaal
#2 May 30 2011 at 6:39 AM Rating: Good
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5/5 Triple Attack before any other Thief merits, for obvious damage dealing reasons.

After that, the rest of the merits in groups 1 and 2 are subjective really. For group 1 you might consider SA or TA merits if you think you can use them often and timed well enough that you'll see the benefit, if not then flee merits will get you around a bit faster.

For group 2, Feint has had it's benefit dampened by abyssea, but is still a really neat tool to carry around and probably worth maxing for it's 2min recast. Ass. charge will give you occasional big WS numbers but overall won't really add much to your damage, even at 5/5 a 5min forced triple attack isn't too significant. Aura steal deserves at least 1 point IMO for the added dispel utility you'll get, merit it more if you enjoy stealing buffs. Finally, ambush is only useful proportionally to how much time you spend behind mobs, and only adds accuracy which you might not need anyway.

There's no wrong way to merit, except for not maxing Triple Attack. That would be wrong.
#3 May 30 2011 at 7:15 AM Rating: Good
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You know, it's kinda of sad that the point of meriting Flee may actually be worthwhile considering how rarely I actually use SA/TA these days. Though this thread also reminds me for pure damage reasons I should spec to full Trick Attack merits since it's hard to get SA off when everyone has capped hate and the mob is spinning like a top.
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#4 May 30 2011 at 8:11 AM Rating: Decent
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I went

Combat Skills
8/8 Dagger
8/8 Marksmanship
4/4 Evasion
4/4 Parrying
8/8 Archery (for paralyze arrows, can leave free for some other job combat skills)

Atributes
8/8 DEX
12/12 HP

Other
5/5 Critical Hit Rate
5/5 - Spell Interruption

Group 1
5/5 Triple Attack Rate
3/5 Sneak Attack recast
2/5 Trick Attack recast

Group 2
For a long time I had:
5/5 Feint
5/5 Assassin's Charge

But switched for a while to
1/5 Feint (due to not beoing really needed inside abyysea)
5/5 Assassin's Charge
4/5 Aurasteal

I have a slight hate on for Aurasteal though. I think it is a really cool idea with failed implimentation. Being bound to a five minute timer and tied to the success rate of (Item)Steal is a bit absurd for this ability. I'll be going back to 5/5 Feint and 5/5 Assassin's Charge when the character reactivation service comes back up.

I've done mine in attempts to maxmize DD potential and NM soloing capability. Merits are so easy to get, I'd suggest trying out which group 1 and 2 merits work best for you and switching them around as needed. The system is flexible that way. You aren't bound to them once you place them.

Edited, May 30th 2011 10:13am by Nebo1
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#5 May 30 2011 at 8:45 AM Rating: Good
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I disagree with this "Feint now sucks" mentality. Ambush never activates when tanking and we often are, aura steal is often used for the annoying defensive buffs, not the attack buffs. (Big DEF bonuses like cocoon, ice spikes, etc) also no DD potential and it's "support side" is limited by a 5 minute timer. Assassin's charge is at least a nice chunk of WS dmg that's guaranteed, not situational.
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#6 May 30 2011 at 9:04 AM Rating: Good
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As most suggest, 5 triple is a no brainer. For me:

Cat1
5/5 Triple atk
5/5 Trick attack (its more likely to land, and pushes up our 'hate control' abilities outside abyssea when your not auto capped hate -_-)

Cat2
I used to be 5/5 feint, 4/5 ambush, 1/5 Aura back at 75 when acc was king etc.

I finally reset after i got Rudra's Storm to:
4/5 feint
5/5 Assassin's charge
1/5 Aura Steal

I really like this setup. Aura steal (the absorb part) is unreliable, and I dont like unreliable things. 1/5 gets you the 100% dispel ability which is all i really want. Id rather have a (still usable) feint(5 min) and AC than 'maybe' stealing a buff, 'if' it gets the right one, 'if' you dont steal and item, and 'if' it decides to actually proc the absorb part.

For me, the absorb is a fun bonus occasionally (still have 20% absorb rate at lv 1), but the reason its there is for a 1 merit point wonder dispel. Not absorb.

It should be pretty plain why i removed my ambush merits for AC when I fell in love with Assassins Charge rudras xD
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#7 May 30 2011 at 10:13 AM Rating: Decent
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Thank you all so very much for the info and explanations. I need to get the merits now and start placing them. Thanks again for the most helpful info!

Belaal
#8 May 30 2011 at 1:14 PM Rating: Decent
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ElvaanTHF wrote:
I disagree with this "Feint now sucks" mentality.


I think Feint is just as good as it ever was. (Its REALLLY nice for landing Para Arrows on anything high level...do ppl still solo? Dual Boxing FTW) Certainly better than the alternatives. It's just less relevant inside abyssea. There are maybe a couple of unusually evasive NM's that can make use of it?

I hear these voidwatch NM's are pretty tough. Maybe they'll add more things feint will be useful against. Even still, if it doesn't benefit you specifically all the time, there are bound to be some noooooooobies in your group sometime benefit XD?

At any rate, I'll be putting my merits back into feint when (if?) the character reactivation service comes back online this week.


Edited, May 30th 2011 3:16pm by Nebo1
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#9 May 31 2011 at 7:00 AM Rating: Good
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Or just those jobs that are using D ranked weapons to proc on any of the last three abyssea zones.
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#10 May 31 2011 at 8:07 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
I disagree with this "Feint now sucks" mentality.

I think Feint is just as good as it ever was


I concur, feint is still just as powerful as ever (landing bolts/arrows is just one of many situations it's nice). And yes, several of the VNM's are pretty tough (some mess with your hitrate as well).

My merits are this

Combat Skills

8/8 dagger
8/8 Marksmanship
4/4 Evasion
4/4 Parrying

Stats
12/12 Max HP
8/8 Dexterity

Other
5/5 crit hit rate
5/5 enemy crit hit rate

Tier 1
5/5 Triple Attack rate
5/5 Sneak Attack recast

Tier 2
5/5 Assassin's Charge
5/5 Feint

I'm saving my other 8 combat skills in case I decide to focus on another melee job because I'm not worried about archery on my thief (plus I have feint and a strong r acc set). I originally had 5 crit and 5 enmity, but I decided the enmity was moot because inside abyssea if I want hate it's easy to get just through damage and/or accompolater (now enhanced by af3 hat), and its easy to hit the hate cap just by fighting a NM for a while. Similarly my ninjutsu skills are capped by my level 45 sub job so even if I merited jutsu akill and 5/5 recast i'd still be getting interrupted almost every time I got hit because the skill would just be too low lvl, so I chose 5 enemy crit rate. Just as I benefit from a 25% base crit rate cap it's nice to lower the enemies crit rate window from 20 to 15%.

Overall a pretty standard setup with a few personal variations. You can't go wrong with merits but dagger/triple attack rate/feint (at least one point should always be here) are essential if you want to maximize your thf performance.

Edited, May 31st 2011 10:09am by Melphina
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#11 May 31 2011 at 10:32 AM Rating: Good
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Im a little surprised you dumped 1 aura steal (thought you used to have it, might be wrong).

I havent gotten around to upping my stats to 8 yet. I had previously put in 5/5 str as I had Drg and thf (thf always needed more str at 75) as well as my rng and lolpld. Str just had to wide an impact across all my jobs and Drakes 50% str mod was to good to pass up.

But, now i have a twash and (very slowly) working on a gandiva for rng (60% dex mod), but I am really pushing for a Ryunhidge (drg mythic drakesbane spam 50% str mod).

I have no idea how do do my str/dex merits now. Im still at 5/5 str and putting off a decision till i finish brd merits. Maybe just settle for 4+4 str/dex? Iunno.
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#12 May 31 2011 at 12:18 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm boycotting Aurasteal ><. I don't want to be the reason SE can look at the stats of people that put merits into and say "HEY guys, Thieves LOVE this thing, lets tie a bunch of other useless crap to the steal timer!"

I firggin' LOVE the idea of having a dispel/steal buff ability. The fact that it is on a 5 minute timer and tied to the success rate of Steal is completely absurd (not to mention won;t go off if your inventory is full).

/sadpanda :(

Edited, May 31st 2011 2:19pm by Nebo1
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#13 May 31 2011 at 9:57 PM Rating: Decent
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I've always thought Aura Steal should have been it's own ability. Just makes more sense that way.
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#14 Jun 01 2011 at 9:15 AM Rating: Decent
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Nebo1 wrote:

I firggin' LOVE the idea of having a dispel/steal buff ability. The fact that it is on a 5 minute timer and tied to the success rate of Steal is completely absurd (not to mention won;t go off if your inventory is full).]


To my (and wiki's) knowledge, an item Steal will always occur instead of the dispel from Aura Steal if it succeeds, thus Aura Steal does not interfere with normal Steal use. The opposite is true actually, that normal Steal blocks Aura Steal when it occurs. So really you have nothing to lose to by unlocking it
#15 Jun 01 2011 at 10:45 AM Rating: Good
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TheBadShadow wrote:
Nebo1 wrote:

I firggin' LOVE the idea of having a dispel/steal buff ability. The fact that it is on a 5 minute timer and tied to the success rate of Steal is completely absurd (not to mention won;t go off if your inventory is full).]


To my (and wiki's) knowledge, an item Steal will always occur instead of the dispel from Aura Steal if it succeeds, thus Aura Steal does not interfere with normal Steal use. The opposite is true actually, that normal Steal blocks Aura Steal when it occurs. So really you have nothing to lose to by unlocking it


Yes we all know this. The fact that Steal negates Aurasteal, if item Steal is successful is absurd.

It's the same thing with Despoil. The fact that the ability to inflict a status ailment is both random and tied to the success rate of stealing an item is...also absurd

These three abilities should not be tied to the same 5 minute timer. Especially when even one 5 minute timer is way to long a recast for any one of them.

If I want to steal a buff, it shouldn't have anything to do with stealing some useless item. Same goes for inflicting despoil debuffs, it should not have anything to do with stealing items.

Edited, Jun 1st 2011 1:26pm by Nebo1
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#16 Jun 01 2011 at 12:09 PM Rating: Good
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I fully agree with the silly overlap of stealing. I think back to things like final fantasy tactics. If you want to steal gil (mug) you use the 'steal gil' ability. If you want to steal an item, you use 'steal item', if you want to steal heart (charm) you use 'steal heart'. If you want to charm, you dont use steal item and 'hope' it fails so that you can 'maybe' charm as an afterthought. Player choice and control of the ONE thing we have control over (our char) should be prioritized. How would you like a racing game that just once in a blue moon turned right when you turned left? Its stupid to place barriers between what the player is trying to do and the avatar is actually doing. Gampeplay and controls have been struggling for YEARS to make the interface between a persons thoughts and the avatars actions as seamless as possible. This is as backwards as replacing your plane ticket with a horse and buggy ticket.

The if>then method is terrible. All sharing the same 5 min timer (steal, dispel/absorb, despoil) on top of that is just a bad idea and not fun. Its frustrating.
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Some of mah gearz: http://www.ffxiah.com/player/Lakshmi/Aanalaty#item-sets
Join 'People Against The Heart Snatcher' and help put Thfs on the right P.A.T.H.S. today!
#17 Jun 07 2011 at 2:02 AM Rating: Decent
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above = the best synopsis of THF's Steal I've read thus far.
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#18 Jun 07 2011 at 4:42 AM Rating: Decent
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I just got despoil.. and I must say I was fairly surprised when I learned you only inflict a debuff when you steal an item. (Unless my lack of sleep made me confused) Waste of an ability..

They need to get rid of despoil and give it's effect in entirety to mug, while making the debuff happen 100% of the time and lowering it's recast to 5 minutes. They also need to split up steal and aura steal into two different abilities. And then finally make them all have their own recast timers. Maybe link steal/mug.
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#19 Jun 07 2011 at 5:48 AM Rating: Good
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SE have been pretty good at fixing things that need fixing recently, I wouldn't be suprised if by the end of the year those JA's will be sorted out with hopefully a re-use time in the region of 1-3mins.
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#20 Jun 07 2011 at 9:06 AM Rating: Decent
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They've already given one update to Despoil though.... I am not optomisitic.
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#21 Jun 09 2011 at 11:13 AM Rating: Decent
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Just tossing this specific note out there, if you want to farm dyna currency and use steal to get some extra, aura steal is the most annoying thing ever. With more than a few merits in it, you will never steal currency, but enjoy your protect. ><;

Due to that I changed to 1/5 aura steal because stealing annoying spikes can be handy in abyssea, 4/5 assassins charge, 5/5 feint which I still find useful for some tougher abyssea mobs. I tank to much/steal hate from tanks to often for ambush to be useful personally.
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#22 Jun 09 2011 at 1:08 PM Rating: Good
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Hemphogg wrote:
Just tossing this specific note out there, if you want to farm dyna currency and use steal to get some extra, aura steal is the most annoying thing ever. With more than a few merits in it, you will never steal currency, but enjoy your protect. ><;

Due to that I changed to 1/5 aura steal because stealing annoying spikes can be handy in abyssea, 4/5 assassins charge, 5/5 feint which I still find useful for some tougher abyssea mobs. I tank to much/steal hate from tanks to often for ambush to be useful personally.


That's just dumb luck and the fact that dyna currency from steal is rare as sh*t. Item steals ALWAYS go before buff steals. Which is the reason I hate bones so hardcore. Not only do they resist piercing, but I do sho love dem der bone chips, mhm.

That being said, 1/5 is the only real answer for aura steal anyway as more just increases the absorb rate, and on a five minute timer, that's laughable.
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#23 Jun 11 2011 at 12:10 AM Rating: Decent
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Day 2 back:

5/5 Feint
5/5 Assassin's CHarge

Aurasteal can suck it
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#24 Jun 11 2011 at 6:56 PM Rating: Default
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You're a fool. I get far more usage out of Aura Steal than assassin's charge. Far more, like, far far more, I hardly even use Assassin's charge.
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#25 Jun 11 2011 at 7:02 PM Rating: Good
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The fact you would say that is off, to say the least. Even more so if you have any mage in your pt given most mages sub SCH.


A dispel that *may* take a buff every 5 minutes if it doesn't jack an item versus a 5 minute garaunteed triple attack. Or more likely, a 7:50 garaunteed triple attack while having the EXACT same dispelling capabilities as someone who 5/5'd aura steal.

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#26 Jun 11 2011 at 7:58 PM Rating: Decent
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You must have a different experience than I have thus far in the game. I've been back two months and the only mages I've regularly grouped with are my friends dualbox whm/blm and my buddy (who is a main THF and posts in this thread!) as blm/whm. There's no dispel at all. And being able to quickly remove something like ice spikes is extremely nice, especially when you're dealing with an ice elemental of the abyssea variety.

You're greatly overstating the potency of Ass charge. In Abyssea, given that you're using Apoc, you're already at a 25% TA rate, meaning that Ass Charge only does something 75% of the time.
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#27 Jun 11 2011 at 9:12 PM Rating: Decent
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This is why I said earlier in the thread that merits are subjective to whoever is using them.

It's not so clear cut when you compare the airy concept of value between AS and AC. One increases your damage on use (assuming that you weren't going to triple attack anyway, something worth considering in abyssea) and the other is a utility that provides a somewhat accurate dispel and infrequently a buff. They each measure their own worth differently as well.

AS shines more when you're solo or don't have a dispel, e.g. snatching the ice spikes off an enemy before you even engage it (I find the buff steal to be too infrequent to factor in at 1/5). It's more notable on enemies that don't have an item up for stealing of course, but it's really useable anytime something is buffed.

AC is a strictly damage enhancing tool, and therefore it's effect is much easier to calculate directly. Yet it has it's own considerations: the timer limits its potential on any single encounter, and it's difficult to say where a reduced recast would actually have significant effect on whatever situation you're in. On top of that, as previously mentioned with abyssea triple attack rates, it could be considered to have no effect from a math standpoint if the attack was to proc triple already. Triplus, AoA, AF3+2 head and merits place you at 31%, more if you use AaO, so it's certainly more than negligable in an abyssea setting.

The point is that without examining the circumstances, I don't think saying that the lowered recast on AC is better than the entireity of AS is meaningful at all. A case could be made for both, and I don't believe one is definitively better than the other in a general case.

Everything above concerns 1/5 AS vs. not meriting it at all in favor of 5/5 AC, for clarity

Edited, Jun 12th 2011 2:41am by TheBadShadow
#28 Jun 11 2011 at 11:05 PM Rating: Good
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Aura Steal is also on a five minute timer for what any good mage can do every 5 seconds. No, I don't find absorbing ice spikes any more useful than just dispelling it because I try to avoid being hit anyway and again, the paralyze comes in a better form. (Using paralyze arrows is better even if you don't have a mage)Honestly you have a dispel on a 5 minute timer that typically is used for occasionally absorbing something odd for sh*ts and giggles.

Yes AC isn't kilometers ahead of AS now but it's still miles ahead. And as it turns out, the dev team has said there will be new content taking place of old, and it won't be abyssea, IE: No wtf 35% triple attack rate.

The only time I ever really used aura steal consistently was for flayers in nyzul isle, as dark based dispel sucked on them at 75 and our static had no BRD.

But my friends also don't sub WHM on BLM or BLM on WHM or SMN on WHM or whatever some people use apparently. I thought the general consensus was that your mage should be /SCH if not for exact reasons as having more useful spells, but for more casting/recast/MP.

EDIT: @TheBadShadow - For clarification do you mean 5/5 aura steal or 1/5? I think every THF agrees 1/5 aura steal isn't a bad thing to have. The major reason THFs don't generally condone 5/5 aura steal is it's way too full of X factors.

Does the mob have a stealable item? If yes, points docked.
Does the mob even have buffs? If no, points docked.
Does the mob have a buff that would really benefit your dps (Be it through straight damage increase or having to swap into that eva set less or whatever)? If no, points docked.
Will the mob resist aura steal? If it does, null.
Is the mob just going to reapply it in 5 seconds (We all can agree bones just freaking LOVE ice spikes I'm sure)? If so, points docked.
Did the mob apply any other worthless buffs you could steal instead of the one you want? (RDM mobs casting barspell, etc)

Etc, etc. Assassin's Charge has pretty much one. Would I have triple attacked anyway? If yes, it's null.

Sure, in abyssea, the most unfavorable situation the JA has ever seen, it's floating at a 65% success. You can't say that about AS, however.

Edited, Jun 12th 2011 1:16am by ElvaanTHF
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#29 Jun 11 2011 at 11:29 PM Rating: Decent
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I don't see anyone stating you should 5/5 Aura Steal. My comment was about having 0/5 Aura Steal, which is simply foolish. You seriously always have a dispel that's able to get the spell off as soon as you can with an instant attack?

Even if I'm with a WHM/SCH, it still requires them to switch to Dark Arts and use Addendum:Black to use Dispel. When I can just take it off instantly, before any of my swings get negated/hurt/reflected by evasion/defense/absorb/spike effects.

In the two months since I've been back I've never been in a group with a scholar and the only WHM's have been /blm for D2 utility and BLM's have been /whm for Haste. The only typically rdm guy I've done stuff with usually comes as BLM, and while he is /rdm during that, he's got long casting spells and cannot always react instantly. Whereas with Aura Steal, I can.

The utility of 1/5 Aura Steal is simply too great to give up for such a minor upgrade of 4/5 to 5/5 Ass Charge.
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#30 Jun 11 2011 at 11:36 PM Rating: Good
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I have honestly stopped caring about maxing damage at ALL costs. Damage is rediculously easy to come by with abyssea in vogue and all 75 content laughable from the DD perspective.

Were not talking about no AC vs AS. Were talking about going from 5 min to 2.5 min on AC vs ACCESS to a dispel move. Its really not much of a sacrifice when we can push out obscene amounts of damage as it is.

Personally, I just gave up on feint and dropped it to 4/5 and keep AC at 5/5 and AS at 1/5. When all 75 content is auto acc capped and all but Thf NMs and the highest level NMs in the game, i just dont use it except onthose very rare targets. 2min is just not really needed. Just like the dif between 5 and 7.5 min AC is nominal in actual total damage output, and just like the absorb is exceptionally minor.

All 3 of these are EXCELLENT abilities to simply have unlocked. They are all 1 point wonder skills. So long as you have them all unlocked, which one you shave the last min or 2 off between AC or Feint really doesnt matter. Just have access to all 3.
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99Thf/99Drg/99Rng/95Pld/Secret Job 92
Bonecraft-100+3 7/29/08
Lu Shangs-5/28/08
Twashtar-90
Ryunohige-75: 1/7/2012
Mandau-75: 3/9/2012

Maat-1/1 Thf Meleed (pansies steal)
Some of mah gearz: http://www.ffxiah.com/player/Lakshmi/Aanalaty#item-sets
Join 'People Against The Heart Snatcher' and help put Thfs on the right P.A.T.H.S. today!
#31 Jun 11 2011 at 11:58 PM Rating: Good
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@Eagle I took you saying you never used AC as saying it was worthless, my bad. I wouldn't 4/5 an ability I never used. I generally pop AC more than AS simply because of the fact someone has sh*t that needs to be dispelled while I'm waiting on my 5 minute timer, whereas since I'm using SA/TA with a WS anyway, I might as well get the most usage out of AC taking advantage of the 1 second JA pause anyway.
I apologize for the misunderstanding then.

@Banalty I've already mentioned my feelings on feint, but that's a definite playstyle thing. Staff with mage atma is hard for my wife to proc on WHM, or my friend on BLM, even with capped skill. I never roll with a group who has a high skill in everything, I'm always in a group where if we want red/blue, it's almost always the skill that's not dagger/club and I pop feint a good majority of fights I'm trying to proc anything not yellow. Not unlocking feint/as/ac is a nono agreed.
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#32 Jun 12 2011 at 7:17 AM Rating: Good
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I use 5/5 Feint and 5/5 Aura Steal.

When I'm playing Thf, it is usually either solo for farming something or in Abyssea (often farming something in Abyssea, lol). With 5/5 AS, I get 100% steal of the buff if I don't steal an item (which is seldom because I don't have the inventory room anymore to carry my stealing gear). This is particularly good for getting long duration buffs like protect and shell. Stealing spikes is nice but often, the mob just puts it up again anyway (spikes spells are high on the list for recast on the Mob's AI).

I don't understand the obsession with marginal increases in dmg output. In abyssea, if I'm not TA'ing onto our Nin, then I'm the one tanking as it is without the need for additional dmg boost. This was the case even when I had 5/5 -Enm merits (which I had for rng durability). Even more now that I've removed those merits and switched them to spell interrupt down (which helps for Utsusemi recast interruption).

It's an easy choice for me.

I only wish, as do many others, that AS and Steal were on separate timers (and that AS had a much shorter recast time to make it a more usable dispelling tool).

Now, SE needs to remove more of the restrictions on job specific group combo totals, like they did with other merit categories. I might consider putting merits into AC if that were the case.

Edited, Jun 12th 2011 9:19am by Lokithor
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#33 Jun 12 2011 at 8:56 AM Rating: Decent
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An ability that guarantees something you already have a minimum of a 35% chance of doing? Sounds worthless to me. (´・ω・`) In my opinion 1-4 merits into ass charge is all personal play style, but you should never go 5/5 and give up access to aura steal.

Also, I'm considering meriting flee instead of trick attack or ta/sa. lol

Edited, Jun 12th 2011 10:57am by Deadgye
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#34 Jun 12 2011 at 6:34 PM Rating: Decent
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SirEaglestrike wrote:
You're a fool..


lol.

Quote:
I get far more usage out of Aura Steal than assassin's charge. Far more, like, far far more, I hardly even use Assassin's charge


I ride the assassin's charge timer as it becomes available, so I use it all the time. I much prefer it to Aurasteal. I also use RR/GH/SS, so the effect is noticable.

Not to mention that a triple attack can proc on both hands. Forcing it on the first hit increases the chances nicely of that happening.

I hate Aurasteal. I love the idea of it, but I really really really hate the ability. I had it merited 5/5 a few months to give it a chance. I tried to use it on everything that I could and find ways for it to be useful. I didn't find it to be very meangingful. Being able to dispel something only once every 5 minutes is pretty "meh."

It really came down to 4/5 Assassin's Charge 1/5 Aurasteal or 5/5 Assassin's Charge. I like having Assassin's Charge on a 5 minute timer better than having 1/5 in Aurasteal.
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#35 Jun 12 2011 at 6:46 PM Rating: Decent
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You cannot TA from both hands while using Evisceration. It's a 5-hit ws, 6 while dual wielding and a triple attack makes it an 8-hit, which is the cap (unless this has changed). So one TA proc is possible in one of our weaponskills used in Abyssea.

I love when people argue against me like they're right while making clearly incorrect statements about game mechanics.
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#36 Jun 12 2011 at 8:26 PM Rating: Decent
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SirEaglestrike wrote:
You cannot TA from both hands while using Evisceration. It's a 5-hit ws, 6 while dual wielding and a triple attack makes it an 8-hit, which is the cap (unless this has changed). So one TA proc is possible in one of our weaponskills used in Abyssea.

I love when people argue against me like they're right while making clearly incorrect statements about game mechanics.


lol you are cute.

Also, Rudra's Storm.
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#37 Jun 12 2011 at 8:40 PM Rating: Decent
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Even still, you're saying 1-1.5k damage (that takes what, 5-10s to deal?) every 2.5min is worth more than an instant dispel every 5min. And it's only 1-1.5k damage if you're very, very geared and TA wasn't going to proc anyway. And if you're very, very geared, 1-1.5k damage comes so very quickly to you.

You're arguing a negligible amount of damage is better than an entire point of utility, which is silly at best.
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#38 Jun 12 2011 at 9:06 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Even still, you're saying 1-1.5k damage every 2.5min is worth more than an instant dispel every 5min


Yeah, that's what I'm saying. I'm not saying "this is what you should do and you're a fool if you don't." I'm saying this is what I like best.

Mostly because the damage from AC is constant, and useful every time its recast is up. AS is not. It is dependant on the mob using a dispellable buff. If I am fighting an NM and dispelling is necessary, I'm going to have a dispeller with me.

I find the exact opposite to be true. I don't find a lot of situations where Aurasteal is really all that useful. Especially if the monster has an item to steal and you than you have the added chance to get that instead of your dispel. Which is why I prefer 5/5 Assassin's Charge.

I've tried lots of different combinations of group 2 and rearranged them many many times. I've done 4/5 AC and 1/5 AS but and didn't like it, so I switched back to my current configuration.

Quote:
You're arguing a negligible amount of damage is better than an entire point of utility, which is silly at best.


lol what is even more silly is to act like such a complete unprovoked douchebag for no real reason.

Edited, Jun 12th 2011 11:09pm by Nebo1

Edited, Jun 12th 2011 11:11pm by Nebo1
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#39 Jun 12 2011 at 9:43 PM Rating: Decent
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This is rather tame compared to old me, and how these forums were a few years back (where I wasn't even the biggest dick).

There are all sorts of things that gives themselves buffs that aren't seen as "important" to dispel. Crabs have defense buffs which don't get dispelled instantly, buffalos have buffs, all SORTS of creatures have buffs that they will have up that can and will effect damage but since they don't kill you, rarely get dispelled that quickly. Spike spells, defense buffs, evasion buffs, etc. are used by at least 1/3 of the creatures in the game.

Fyi, if a mob uses an evasion boost move and you then miss just two attacks before someone gets a dispel off, that's 300-600 damage lost (not including 10tp!) and basically half of an AC.
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#40 Jun 12 2011 at 11:44 PM Rating: Decent
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SirEaglestrike wrote:
Spike spells, defense buffs, evasion buffs, etc. are used by at least 1/3 of the creatures in the game.....

....Fyi, if a mob uses an evasion boost move and you then miss just two attacks before someone gets a dispel off, that's 300-600 damage lost (not including 10tp!) and basically half of an AC.


Which, even by your numbers here, makes it uselss 2/3 of the time?

Hmm what to do with defensive buffs? If only we had some sort of way to remove those and grant a defense down status at the same time?

Evasion buffs? If only we had some amazingly powerful evasion down ability on a 2 minute timer to deal with those?


You are right. Aurasteal is the best thing ever!!!

Edited, Jun 13th 2011 1:45am by Nebo1
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#41 Jun 12 2011 at 11:51 PM Rating: Good
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Deadgye wrote:
An ability that guarantees something you already have a minimum of a 35% chance of doing? Sounds worthless to me. (´・ω・`) In my opinion 1-4 merits into ass charge is all personal play style, but you should never go 5/5 and give up access to aura steal.

Also, I'm considering meriting flee instead of trick attack or ta/sa. lol

Edited, Jun 12th 2011 10:57am by Deadgye


Do it, you'll never look back. At the least it's much easier to feel the benefit than the reduced sa/ta timer, which is what counts for me. But idk, I just love running around faster
#42 Jun 13 2011 at 12:47 AM Rating: Decent
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Nebo1 wrote:
SirEaglestrike wrote:
Spike spells, defense buffs, evasion buffs, etc. are used by at least 1/3 of the creatures in the game.....

....Fyi, if a mob uses an evasion boost move and you then miss just two attacks before someone gets a dispel off, that's 300-600 damage lost (not including 10tp!) and basically half of an AC.


Which, even by your numbers here, makes it uselss 2/3 of the time?

Hmm what to do with defensive buffs? If only we had some sort of way to remove those and grant a defense down status at the same time?

Evasion buffs? If only we had some amazingly powerful evasion down ability on a 2 minute timer to deal with those?


You are right. Aurasteal is the best thing ever!!!

Edited, Jun 13th 2011 1:45am by Nebo1


Despoil has had a low success rate at best for me thus far, where Aura Steal is very accurate. Feint still requires an initial landing, which after an evasion boost may not happen for a bit, thus making aura steal still fully useful in such a situation. Keep trying.
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#43 Jun 13 2011 at 1:30 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Despoil has had a low success rate at best for me thus far, where Aura Steal is very accurate.


What doess Despoil have to do with anything?

Quote:
Feint still requires an initial landing, which after an evasion boost may not happen for a bit, thus making aura steal still fully useful in such a situation.


Stack with SA or TA to make it 100%? Pop Conspirator? Swap to an ACC set?

Quote:
Keep trying


lol. Keep that sense of humor.

Edited, Jun 13th 2011 1:51pm by Nebo1
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#44 Jun 13 2011 at 1:50 AM Rating: Decent
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Oh, I see. You want to say you should be using acid bolts and give up raider's boomerang. Interesting, not sure it's worth the effort seeing how it likely requires even more effort to land those bolts than before with our awesome marksmanship skill. My accuracy is fine with daggers but I know it's not capped on everything and pre-merits there's a 40 skill (20% hit rate) difference and RR gives 25 acc that doesn't effect bolts so there's a 32.5% hit rate difference between daggers and xbow. I can't say for sure whether acid bolts are really worth it. And anyway, in any situation you need the defense down you'd bring a ranger to always have it up.

I'm almost always tanking, SA is iffy at best, TA still requires extra movement IF there's another melee with me and I've done plenty of duo/trioing with me as only melee that's around. So still not instant.
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#45 Jun 13 2011 at 2:08 AM Rating: Decent
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SirEaglestrike wrote:
Oh, I see. You want to say you should be using acid bolts and give up raider's boomerang. Interesting, not sure it's worth the effort seeing how it likely requires even more effort to land those bolts than before with our awesome marksmanship skill.


It's actually very easy. Cruor Buffs, GH, etc. Even in the abscence of those things, THF has enough racc gear to land and proc them on anything that isn't wind resistant. (Certainly anything with a defense buff that you'd want to Aurasteal)


Quote:
I can't say for sure whether acid bolts are really worth it.


I can. They are. Any fight you can land them on benefits more form them than Raider's Boomerang.


Quote:
And anyway, in any situation you need the defense down you'd bring a ranger to always have it up.


As in....any fight, where the goal is to kill the monster?

Quote:
I'm almost always tanking, SA is iffy at best, TA still requires extra movement IF there's another melee with me and I've done plenty of duo/trioing with me as only melee that's around. So still not instant.


Still more useful. Still really makes Aurasteal less relevant for dispelling evasion buffs. Still on a lower recast.

The point here is that most of the things you are saying that Aurasteal is so useful for, we have other (better) answers for. Or there is going to be a dispeller there to deal with them.

Edited, Jun 13th 2011 10:47am by Nebo1
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#46 Jun 13 2011 at 6:25 AM Rating: Decent
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You're an idiot if you get rid of Aura Steal completely just to reduce Ass Charge another 2.5 minutes. Let's look at this from a logical perspective. First off you're only using it on weapon skills because it's worthless for regular attack rounds.

Take a look at the weapon skills you're using. Rudra's Storm and Evisceration. If you're using evisceration then only one triple attack can proc. You have a ~35% proc rate already and at least two chances for it to proc. This results in at least a ~58% chance of Ass Charge being completely worthless.

Therefore it would be smart to only use it on Rudra's Storm. And you're giving up the ability to dispel any buff so that you can guarantee a TA proc on only Rudra's Storm every 5 minutes instead of every 7.5 minutes? Something that's still going to be useless at least ~23% of the time. The benefit of having an instant dispel in alliance, party, lowman, and solo situations vastly outweighs the additional damage granted by being able to use Ass Charge every 5 minutes instead of every 7.5 minutes.

Also, Raider's Boomerang > Ziskas in non solo* situations. Honestly if you want to go 5/5 Ass Charge that bad then you're better off going 4/5 Feint and 1/5 Aura Steal.

Edited, Jun 13th 2011 8:30am by Deadgye
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#47 Jun 13 2011 at 6:55 AM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
Also, Raider's Boomerang > Ziskas in non solo* situations


I disagree. Even in group scenarios acid bolts are nice to have, and the defense down effect never stopped overwriting Cocoon and Scissor Guard either. It probably depends on what you're doing, but acid bolts land on most abyssea NM's and even most of the mega bosses (glav, dragua, itza, creoin-croin, bhukis.... lots lots more). It's far more effective to knock a zone bosses defense down by 12.5% for the whole group than it is to bolster dual wield by 3%, and if you're still trying to proc weakness and not ready to finish the mob just yet this is even more true because you'll be holding back your full strength. I use raider's rang too of course, particularly if I'm in an exp setting and my group is just zerging trash mobs, but both still have their uses and ziska's is not inferior in every group setting.

Edited, Jun 13th 2011 8:56am by Melphina
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#48 Jun 13 2011 at 8:42 AM Rating: Decent
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Deadgye wrote:
You're an idiot if you get rid of Aura Steal completely just to reduce Ass Charge another 2.5 minutes.


lol. I've already said this, but I'll repeat it. I've even had Aurasteal merited 5/5 for several months at one point. It is nowhere near as useful in practice as you are trying to make it out to be. Not even close.

Quote:
And you're giving up the ability to dispel any buff


Quite right. Because any time a monster has a debuff that NEEDS dispelling, you're not going to be like "Oh guys its cool, I got this. I merited Aurasteal, we're good for dispel." NO. I'ts on a 5 minute timer, you'll use it once and the mob will buff itself again 5-10 seconds later and you'll be sitting with your thumb up your ass for 4:50 until you can use it again.

For these situations, it is functionally useless. You are going to have a dispeller with you.

As was pointed out earlier, for performance effecting buffs, like evasion boost and defense boost. We have other (better) answers for those, with more utility and much lower recast that lolAurasteal.

Quote:
Also, Raider's Boomerang > Ziskas in non solo* situations.


You think 3% DW for you is better than a 12.5% defense down effect (that stacks with Dia, box step, etc.) for your entire alliance in a group setting and you have the balls to call me an idiot? lol

Quote:
Honestly if you want to go 5/5 Ass Charge that bad then you're better off going 4/5 Feint and 1/5 Aura Steal.


Nah, I like having feint on a 2 minute timer. Although I did try this configuration for a bit as well, I didn't like it.

Edited, Jun 13th 2011 1:44pm by Nebo1
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#49 Jun 13 2011 at 11:33 AM Rating: Excellent
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I went 5/5 feint and 5/5 ass charge too because I don't think aura steal or ambush have much practical utility. Aura steal LOOKS good on paper, but the flaws have already been mentioned. They boil down to

1:) Mobs that can buff themselves will continue applying those buffs even after you dispel it until they die
2:) The steal timer is a damn long recast and can be interfered with by taking items
3:) Mobs that can buff themselves often have a LOT of buffs to choose from, and you only dispel one. You will often hit the WRONG buff. Ex.... "magician of doom casts dread spikes" --> Aura steal. Congratulations, you stole the mobs protect IV (which you already have).
4:) Most mobs buffs aren't important enough to care about. If its a weak mob its going to die in several seconds anyway, and if its a boss mob with a nasty buff you should have a real dispeller, IE a mage. Otherwise you're kinda screwed even if your aura steal does hit the mark because you're fighting a hard mob without an actual mage.


Its cute to be able to take a Phaubos shock spikes off, but once that phaubo is dead you can't do it again for a long time and he probably reapplied it shortly after it was gone anyway. Dispelling mobs never lasts.... that's why you have to KEEP dispelling them. And aura steal just isn't capable of doing that in a practical manner.

Edited, Jun 13th 2011 1:38pm by Melphina
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#50 Jun 13 2011 at 12:07 PM Rating: Decent
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Mistress Melphina wrote:

1:) Mobs that can buff themselves will continue applying those buffs even after you dispel it until they die
2:) The steal timer is a damn long recast and can be interfered with by taking items
3:) Mobs that can buff themselves often have a LOT of buffs to choose from, and you only dispel one. You will often hit the WRONG buff. Ex.... "magician of doom casts dread spikes" --> Aura steal. Congratulations, you stole the mobs protect IV (which you already have).
4:) Most mobs buffs aren't important enough to care about. If its a weak mob its going to die in several seconds anyway, and if its a boss mob with a nasty buff you should have a real dispeller, IE a mage. Otherwise you're kinda screwed even if your aura steal does hit the mark because you're fighting a hard mob without an actual mage.


1) You play this game enough to know that mobs do NOT always recast things. If you're fighting an Ice creature he has multiple spells he can cast (Ice Spikes, Blizzaga, Blizzard, maybe Freeze, paralyze, etc.) and there is a cooldown between when he casts these spells. So he may only cast Ice Spikes once every couple minutes (which could be an entire fight).

The other buffs are TP moves typically and mobs almost always have 3-5 TP moves. In Abyssea mobs are not often spamming TP moves and when they do use these moves there is a solid wait time in between them.

2) Everything in FFXI is slow. A 5min timer is an ability you NEVER use in WoW because of how fast combat is. In FFXI a 5min timer is still every few mobs, if you're fighting an NM over and over you may even get to use that 5min timer once per NM. And honestly, it's silly you're talking about a 5min timer being "too long" when the point you're spending is only making the other ability a 5min timer, lol. Also, NM's RARELY have items to steal and in fact, most mobs do not have items to steal, it's hardly an issue.

3) In such a case you either need a dispeller and you're still helping them out, OR you just removed 65(?) defense from the creature, I do believe that's more than an acid bolt does, hrm.

4) Correct! If it's a weak mob it's GOING TO DIE WITH OR WITHOUT TRIPLE ATTACK ON THAT WS! If it's a nasty mob chances are that mage is doing something else. Casting a heal, a buff, a different debuff, trying to proc yellow, etc. You don't always have a mage sitting there WAITING for a dispel. Everyone seems to be under the impression that mages sit there waiting to dispel as if the mob is about to Gates of Hades and it needs to be stunned. Lol.

Aura steal is an instant move that you lose NOTHING for using at the time and gives you a solid boost in situational utility, one thing that has always been one of the perks of playing a thief.

I mean come on people, I've always been outspoken about THF's being DD's and all, but there are some things worth far more than damage.

Edited, Jun 13th 2011 2:08pm by SirEaglestrike
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#51 Jun 13 2011 at 12:31 PM Rating: Decent
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SES wrote:
3) In such a case you either need a dispeller and you're still helping them out, OR you just removed 65(?) defense from the creature, I do believe that's more than an acid bolt does, hrm.


That's like the 3rd thing in this thread you've said about acid bolts that leads me to believe you don't know how they even work.

The acid bolt effect REMOVES a defensive buff and APPLIES a defensive debuff. It overwrites. So it removes the 65 (whatever) defense and then some. They can be used as often as needed. Given using aura steal vs. an acid bolt for the case of a defensive boost, you would be better served using an acid bolt (subject to terms and conditions).
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