Forum Settings
       
Reply To Thread

SS vs GH vs Lion atma and Twilight Dagger problem?Follow

#1 May 11 2011 at 1:59 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
****
6,580 posts
First off Twilight Dagger.
Either: Snolls or Snoll NMs have a 75% resistance to all drain affects, or, the drain affect has been lowered from 100% to 25%.
I just went single-wield Twilight Knife against Upas-Kamuy just now after noticing it wasn't working every hit, and over 100 attacks I counted 9 HP, 11 MP and 6 TP drains. So it looks like it'll be a 10/10/5% spread.

5% TP drain is pretty low. I don't think it's a significant concideration when comparing daggers now. So my question is now: Is the extra base damage and Quadruple Attack still enough by it's self for Twilight/Triplus to beat the speed of Triplus/Rapidus?

Edit: Just put it on to farm some goobbues quickly and it was 100% again in Boy. Tree... Strange.


Now onto Sanguine Scythe and Gnarled Horn. Crit damage is now capped at 100%. The problem with Sanguine Scythe before was that most of the boost was lost to the crit damage cap. That isn't the case anymore. Do you think the crit damage of Sanguine Scythe will beat the Crit rate of Gnarled Horn? (I'm looking purely at DD aspects. Not tanking/extra benefit aspects because they both have them: AGi for subtle blow and slight counter vs HP).
Concidering third atma choices now, what about Atma of the Lion? Triple Attack: Major. 10% more Triple Attack. That's a lot.

Edited, May 11th 2011 10:55am by Noodles
____________________________
[HTID]
DRG BRD TH4 RNG RDM75
Dragoon Equipment Guide
ArsDraconis wrote:
Ultima spends 10 whole seconds shouting "I'MA FIRIN MAH LAZER" like a 2004 valkurm melee waiting for SC
#2 May 11 2011 at 5:13 AM Rating: Good
***
3,775 posts
Well first off, we're really dealing with a huge sh*t is situational game now so I can't give any hard and cut rules, but I'll say this to your thoughts.

First off. Atma of Lion versus (other atma) -- Atma of the lion gives 10% triple attack rate which is nice, but it also gives thunder elemental magic attack (useless on thief), and physical damage taken -10% (situationally useful dependent on your activities). Atma of the alpha and the omega on the other hand gives 10% triple attack increase (idential to the lion), 50 attack and -25% hp, so again...what are you doing? I'd take alpha omega long before lion if I was fighting lesser game mobs or farming generic stuff or exp allying, but if I wanted to tank or was fighting high level NMs with really damaging attacks I'd shy away from AO.

Twilight Knife -- I actually never liked the knife alongside our other daggers. I don't know why, but it was never a fav of mine. My thoughts on this are limited due to the fact that I rarely used it.

Gnarled Horn versus SS -- I like this tradeoff. Really I do!! The difference between 20% crit hit rate and 30% crit damage however will boil down to different aspects of our DoT spectrum. SS will increase sneak and trick attack by considerable amounts (30% stronger than before) but the effects on DoT and unstacked WS damage are difficult to measure. The law of diminishing returns applies to critical hit rate as you close in on the 95% cap and we'd still have a 59% DoT crit rate with af3 legs + razed (higher % in WS because crit rate % is boosted on evisceration), but a crit raises pDIF by 1.0 and adds the razed ruins/crit attack bonus traits damage which a non crit doesn't get, so 20% crit rate versus 30% damage is more than just linear math. Sanguine Scythe will have a significant impact on Rudra's Storm/Shark Bite and Mercy Stroke (also Man Stab for Vajra users) whereas gnarled horn is nearly useless in raising those weaponskills damage (50 agi on ta versions is it). The secondary benefits of SS vs GH are counter and 50 agi versus enmity and max hp + 30%, and I like the HP/enmity more than I do the agi/counter. 50 agi is a small bonus to ta damage relative to our total DoT spectrum and the counter is nice but still a fairly low %. 25 eva is nice but I already have a powerful eva swap and have high parry skill now, so I prefer 30% HP to 25% more eva (I also like the enmity increase tbh). I like the SS extra perks more than the GH. SS is a **** awesome tanking atma though, so at the very least when I'm tanking I intend to swap from GH >>> SS.

I could offer sh*t is situational scenarios where you spend more time TA/SA than DoT (HNMs where you're just increasing TH levels while waiting on weakness proc or w/e ...... and this possibly has voidwatch implications but that event is young so I don't know what strategies will be used on higher eschelon bosses or what the role of atma will be after it's figured out). In these cases SS >>>> GH once more.

I've found too many sh*t is situational situations to go by a hard rule of thumb, so I work off basic principles and gauge how effective a setup seems. I judge pros and cons of my choices and use what I like best for the stuff I'm doing. If it's highly effective then I stick with it.

EDIT: I did do some basic numbers on the difference between SS/RR/GH versus GH/RR/AOA and posted them here. While the considerations of DoT between GH and SS are fuzzy, it's a given that RR/AoA + either SS OR GH is better than a full RR/GH/SS combo. It's not worth sacrificing AoA to have both, so if you want to ago the DD rout then use either GH or SS and keep RR/AoA.

Edited, May 12th 2011 7:31am by Melphina
____________________________
[ffxisig]56619[/ffxisig]

There are 10 kinds of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.
#3 May 11 2011 at 7:54 AM Rating: Good
*
75 posts
I've tested kinematics updated spreadsheet a bit. On weak stuff rr/ss/apoc sure seems to be the future now. For high level mobs/nms rr/ao/apoc might still be the winner, it depends on how debuffed they are. Of course the combo still has limited usability due hp.
#4 May 11 2011 at 8:14 AM Rating: Good
Sage
***
1,294 posts
Melphina wrote:
58% DoT crit rate with af3 legs + razed


Minor edit, We can merit crit rate up to 5% now... :D
#5 May 11 2011 at 8:33 AM Rating: Good
***
3,775 posts
Quote:
Minor edit, We can merit crit rate up to 5% now... :D


Fixed, and silly me. I already did that last night and forgot about it. It wont change any math results but yeah, right on.
____________________________
[ffxisig]56619[/ffxisig]

There are 10 kinds of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.
#6 May 11 2011 at 8:52 AM Rating: Good
Sage
***
1,294 posts
Its ok Melphina, I actually totally forgot about it until I saw your post, and I spent 15 merits getting sword from 2 to 7 last night for my pld.
#7 May 11 2011 at 4:28 PM Rating: Good
***
2,270 posts
Quote:
The difference between 20% crit hit rate and 30% crit damage however will boil down to different aspects of our DoT spectrum. SS will increase sneak and trick attack by considerable amounts (20% stronger than before) but the effects on DoT and unstacked WS damage are difficult to measure.

The law of diminishing returns applies to critical hit rate as you close in on the 95% cap and we'd still have a 59% DoT crit rate with af3 legs + razed (higher % in WS because crit rate % is boosted on evisceration), but a crit raises pDIF by 1.0 and adds the razed ruins/crit attack bonus traits damage which a non crit doesn't get, so 20% crit rate versus 30% damage is more than just linear math. Sanguine Scythe will have a significant impact on Rudra's Storm/Shark Bite and Mercy Stroke (also Man Stab for Vajra users) whereas gnarled horn is nearly useless in raising those weaponskills damage (50 agi on ta versions is it). The secondary benefits of SS vs GH are counter and 50 agi versus enmity and max hp + 30%,


Wiki SS page:"HP+: Major (20%), Critical Hit Damage+: Major (+valueVerification Needed), Enmity+: Minor (+valueVerification Needed)"

Wiki talk page: "After update i'm seeing that the CAP was raised on Critical hit damage %, with about 43% in gear this atma giving me another 20% about. Needs more testing but thats a first glance"

I have been seeing conflicting numbers on SS boosts on wiki, in forums, and just in general. I was under the impression teh crit damage was 20% and the +hp was 20%. I have seen everything posted/spoken about between 20 and 30% for both. This is not to call melph out, I just dont know what it actually is with so much conflicting information all over.

____________________________
Aanalaty, Mithra of San d'Oria
99Thf/99Drg/99Rng/95Pld/Secret Job 92
Bonecraft-100+3 7/29/08
Lu Shangs-5/28/08
Twashtar-90
Ryunohige-75: 1/7/2012
Mandau-75: 3/9/2012

Maat-1/1 Thf Meleed (pansies steal)
Some of mah gearz: http://www.ffxiah.com/player/Lakshmi/Aanalaty#item-sets
Join 'People Against The Heart Snatcher' and help put Thfs on the right P.A.T.H.S. today!
#8 May 12 2011 at 12:36 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
****
6,580 posts
For some reason I had thought AO had Double Attack, not Triple Attack.

So then it boils down to tanking 3rd Atma. For pure DD: Lion vs GH vs SS. Excluding their additional useful buffs (HP, counter, pdt etc) as those are really just personal prefferance, I wonder of the three which would be your generic best 3rd atma when you don't want the -HP of AO?
____________________________
[HTID]
DRG BRD TH4 RNG RDM75
Dragoon Equipment Guide
ArsDraconis wrote:
Ultima spends 10 whole seconds shouting "I'MA FIRIN MAH LAZER" like a 2004 valkurm melee waiting for SC
#9 May 12 2011 at 5:35 AM Rating: Good
***
3,775 posts
Banalaty: The 20%/30% quote was a typo. I meant to say that SA and TA would be 30% stronger than before with the SS (not completely accurate because GH affects TA with 50 agi, but I believe SS crit damage increase is 30%).

The SS had been tested before by Kirschy using ranged attack damage. But I've always wondered about crit damage increase, and I even asked Kirschy about razed ruins. Since s-e updated the atmas to read the correct help text razed ruins now says

Crit rate: Superior
Crit damage: Major
dex+ : Superior

The fact that razed ruins increases crit rate by 30% is common knowledge, but I went to konstant and even my ranged crits fluxuated a little at high pdif with ranger/war... enough for me to question razed ruin's 30% crit damage versus say... a 20% crit damage. I had a feeling several months ago that razed ruins may actually be increasing crit damage by only 20%, but I never followed that up with a definitive parse. Kparser needs its memloc updated after the emergency maint but I want to go back into abyssea one day and do a simple test with no crit damage enhancing gear on me with as high an attack as I can get. What i have in mind is to go to abyss kon and kill lizards for a while thf/nin. Fire kila +2/rapidus sax, and my tp set will only include af legs for crit rate so the set bonus doesn't interfere. The control setup will include the gnarled horn, dark depths and stronghold to get a good crit rate and allow me to semi afk and keep hp full. After that I'll just swap out dark depths for razed ruins, followed by sanguine scythe in the 3rd setup. I'll finish with a 4th setup of razed + sanguine + stronghold to round it out. I figure a sample size of 1K hits each should be sufficient, but thats still 4k hits so ill wait for a day off to do it.

Edited, May 12th 2011 9:40am by Melphina
____________________________
[ffxisig]56619[/ffxisig]

There are 10 kinds of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.
#10 May 12 2011 at 7:51 AM Rating: Good
Sage
***
1,294 posts
Melphina, use ranged attacks. There is little to no variance in damage from hit to hit and you could tell whether it does 20% or 30% much easier.
#11 May 12 2011 at 7:56 AM Rating: Good
***
2,270 posts
Hmm. You might be better off with any 2 kila+2s just so that both hands have the same damage to remove any possibility of error in the parse regarding which hand gets which crit, and simplify the results without having to avg your damage or anything between hands.

This month is pretty busy for me, so I may not get a chance to work on something similar myself for a while, but I look forward to your results if i cant get to it myself. It will be nice to make sure all our base assumptions are correct before we jump into a whole new atma age for thf and declare winners and losers.
____________________________
Aanalaty, Mithra of San d'Oria
99Thf/99Drg/99Rng/95Pld/Secret Job 92
Bonecraft-100+3 7/29/08
Lu Shangs-5/28/08
Twashtar-90
Ryunohige-75: 1/7/2012
Mandau-75: 3/9/2012

Maat-1/1 Thf Meleed (pansies steal)
Some of mah gearz: http://www.ffxiah.com/player/Lakshmi/Aanalaty#item-sets
Join 'People Against The Heart Snatcher' and help put Thfs on the right P.A.T.H.S. today!
#12 May 12 2011 at 8:18 AM Rating: Good
***
3,775 posts
Quote:
Melphina, use ranged attacks. There is little to no variance in damage from hit to hit and you could tell whether it does 20% or 30% much easier.


Quote:
RNG crit bonus is 40% according to BG, apparently they can reach 100% crit damage bonus with that and RR/SS.


That explains my original discrepencies in this post since I was using my ranger to gather data. I just gathered some numbers on thf/war with ziskas and bloody bolts.

EDIT: Gathered a few numbers here. Thf//war using ziska's crossbow and bloody bolts against lizards in konstant abyss.

normal melee hit

111
113
115
112
113
115
113
111

Critical damage with no crit atma

147
147
153
156
156
156
154
147
152

Critical damage with only Razed Ruins

222
224
218
222
222
224
222
218

Critical damage with only Sanguine Scythe

222
215
224
220

Critical damage with both Razed Ruins AND Sanguine Scythe

240
253
253
253
253
246
243

And with that I have to head to work. I don't even have time to analyze the numbers >.<.

RE-EDIT: I had a chance to break that down and yeah, it's a 30% increase.

Edited, May 13th 2011 6:01am by Melphina
____________________________
[ffxisig]56619[/ffxisig]

There are 10 kinds of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.
#13 May 12 2011 at 8:34 AM Rating: Good
Sage
***
1,294 posts
RNG crit bonus is 40% according to BG, apparently they can reach 100% crit damage bonus with that and RR/SS.

I have to say, I used RR/SS last night on some Bennu spam, and I wasn't all that impressed with my over all damage. I did get a few 4k SA + Mandalic Stabs though. Crits were between 173/253 with pretty good gear and Bison Steak. Probably would have been a bit better if I didn't take off 3rd atma for Ascending One for the wind resist.

Oh, and Raider's Vest +2!! :D
#14 May 12 2011 at 9:20 AM Rating: Excellent
***
2,236 posts
Quote:
Kparser needs its memloc updated after the emergency maint


I posted the new memloc the other day, but probly wasn't very noticeable. Uploaded new version of KParser with new memloc, along with revisions to the Extra Attack tab coding. Will make the public postings later tonight when I have more time.
Reply To Thread

Colors Smileys Quote OriginalQuote Checked Help

 

Recent Visitors: 25 All times are in CST
Anonymous Guests (25)