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Crit Damage increase?Follow

#1 May 10 2011 at 9:47 AM Rating: Decent
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Has anyone noticed if our native crit damage bonus recieved any change?

Or if items like Cavaros Mantle or Qirmiz Tathlum recieved any change?

Or if it was just a lift in the cap of Crit Damage Bonus/crit rate?
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#2 May 10 2011 at 10:01 AM Rating: Decent
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I think its just a cap lef because i read fast cast had its cap lefted and crit rate and dmg where under the same list of ajustment as fast cast.
#3 May 10 2011 at 10:19 AM Rating: Good
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Yeah I saw some brief testing on BG about RNG's ability to go well above the 50% critical attack damage that we previously had. So yeah, the cap is raised beyond that.
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#4 May 10 2011 at 1:47 PM Rating: Decent
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Interesting.I wonder how another crit damage atma would compare to Apoc as the third? (RR/GH/SS) for tanking/soloing?
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#5 May 10 2011 at 10:10 PM Rating: Decent
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Nebo1 wrote:
Interesting.I wonder how another crit damage atma would compare to Apoc as the third? (RR/GH/SS) for tanking/soloing?


Just tested this and using Angr Harpe + Triplus, I was critting for 250-320, as opposed to the previous 180-250, so yes, the crit dmg cap is definitely higher, if not removed altogether. I'd be more inclined to use RR/SS/Apoc though, since more swings is still better than harder hitting swings, and the more you swing, the more chance you have to crit.
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#6 May 11 2011 at 5:54 AM Rating: Good
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more swings is still better than harder hitting swings, and the more you swing, the more chance you have to crit.


EDIT: Originally I agreed with this but after actually trying it out I'm not sure this is the case. I posted a response about 8 or 10 comments down regarding this but since the convo is on several topics i'll just link right to the post for reference here. Kinematics posted a more appropriate mathematical breakdown slightly below this post and above the one I referenced to.

Edited, May 12th 2011 9:20pm by Melphina
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#7 May 11 2011 at 10:19 AM Rating: Excellent
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I tried doing a little comparison on my spreadsheet, with changing out the atmas. (This is the updated version with crit dmg cap at +100%. Also fixed crit merits to 5%, which the downloadable version hasn't changed yet.)

There's a mix of middling gear, and I decided to go with a slightly more damage-focused setup rather than speed-focused setup for SA/TA. Solo SA/TA only, not stacked with WS. Standard XP-level target. Aggressive play.

RR+GH+Apoc: 347.999

Swap out GH for Sanguine Scythe.

RR+SS+Apoc: 352.916

So it does go up a slight bit. You lose the evasion and reduced TP given from the Agi on GH in exchange for the +HP on SS. Out of curiosity I looked at replacing Apoc with GH to get back the TP and evasion advantages.

RR+SS+GH: 351.825

In this case, a miniscule reduction in damage to gain back TP given and evasion, but losing auto-RR. Though the real surprise was that GH was performing on par with Apoc.

Going back and trying out atma from the ground up (single atma at a time):

None: 173.208
RR: 259.288
Apoc: 202.318
GH: 196.173
SS: 195.074
SQueen: 194.061
VV: 187.197


The (relatively) low value on Apoc atma surprised me. However it does sort of make sense. The thf setup had 16%-19% TA (Epona, +2 head, and either Triplus or Twilight dagger) before adding Apoc. The marginal gain for Apoc atma is notably lower for thf than it is for other melee, and SA/TA also takes away some of the weight of triple attack in terms of overall melee damage.

So by exchanging Apoc for SS, you're removing a moderately good atma (instead of a great atma), and replacing it with one that on its own does decently well, but also lends itself towards enhancing the area that Apoc doesn't, SA/TA damage. In the end you end up with total DPS almost exactly the same, but better survivability (more HP, no change in TP given or evasion) and less TP feed (fewer, stronger hits).

In addition, the more over-TP rounds (the longer you hold TP between weaponskills), the more it favors RR+GH+SS over RR+GH+Apoc.

As an aside, this also pushes average solo SA/TAs up into the 1500+ range.


Also also: If you remove SA/TA damage (solo tanking an NM or farming sound-agro mobs or whatever), RR+GH+Apoc pulls ahead again in damage by a small bit (~3.5%).

Edited, May 11th 2011 11:34am by Kinematics
#8 May 11 2011 at 2:05 PM Rating: Good
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Forgive my ignorance, but what SS are you refering to? Sanguine Scythe or Siren Shadow?
#9 May 11 2011 at 2:09 PM Rating: Good
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Hmm...this is interesting indeed. I had recently been toying with RR/Omnipitant/Apoc for more epeen Rudras. But with this change, I will definately be toying with other options that exclude GH. When you spam Evis, GH is always great as it ups your melee/WS and TA damage. But with rudras, crit rate means jack for your WS, but omnipitant does virtually nothing for your melee DPS so there is no win/win.

However, I am excited to try out RR/SS+ either Apoc or (for RAW POWA WS) Omnipitant. Though for evis spam people, GH will always be a solid choice (as Kinemeatics so adequately pointed out).

I expect to have very nice new screenies with RR/Omni/SS ^_^

This also makes me far more interested in that new D30/Del 150 dagger with crit damage boost. I might even pull out my qirmiz tathlum again for grinsies.
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#10 May 11 2011 at 2:09 PM Rating: Excellent
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pinchzorz wrote:
Forgive my ignorance, but what SS are you refering to? Sanguine Scythe or Siren Shadow?


Sanguine Scythe.

Edited, May 11th 2011 3:09pm by Kinematics
#11 May 11 2011 at 2:37 PM Rating: Good
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Banalaty wrote:
but omnipitant does virtually nothing for your melee DPS so there is no win/win.



Doesn't Omnipotent give 10% haste? Take off Homam Feet/Twilight Belt and put something else on, Raider's Poulaines +2 for 5/5 Set bonus or some other foot armor, KulKulkan belt (Cant remember the name) or some such on belt.
#12 May 11 2011 at 3:04 PM Rating: Decent
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For what its worth, I was toying around with RR/SS/Apoc on sand sweepers earlier and put up a consistent 3-3.5k evisceration with just standard buffs and red curry buns. On surveyors, I was easily able to attain a consistent 4.5-5.2k evisceration. SS is definitely a worthwhile replacement for GH now, for all situations as far as I'm concerned.
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#13 May 12 2011 at 5:55 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:

Doesn't Omnipotent give 10% haste? Take off Homam Feet/Twilight Belt and put something else on, Raider's Poulaines +2 for 5/5 Set bonus or some other foot armor, KulKulkan belt (Cant remember the name) or some such on belt.


Meldi you should know better. Omnipotent gives 50 dex (basically only worth 25 accuracy for DoT purposes) and 10% haste (useless if you can cap haste with gear.... hint: we can). You would have to find gear strong enough to compensate a more damaging atma, and I can't think of anything that makes up for 20% crit rate, 15% TA rate, 30% crit damage, 30/30% crit rate/damage and etc. The af3 feet 5/5 versus 4/4 set bonus and several points of accuracy/attack you could get from cuchulains belt or w/e will never make up for a superior atma. Omnipotent is only good for rudra's, sneak attack, and weaponskill mods and Banalaty is right. There is no win win because no matter how you play it the gains you get in one area will always be lost in spades by suffering performance in another area, and omnipotent never comes out ahead.... ever. The only way omnipotent would win is it the haste was classified as magical, but since s-e classifies it as equipment haste it falls flat on its face.

Edited, May 12th 2011 9:05pm by Melphina
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#14 May 12 2011 at 7:49 AM Rating: Good
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He was talking about using it for Rudra's, and if you are using it anyway, why not change your gear setup to take advantage of the 10% haste, I don't understand.
#15 May 12 2011 at 8:05 AM Rating: Good
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Banalaty said he was toying with omnipotent for rudra's storm for epeen screenshots and stated that there was no win win. I interpreted your post as implying that there could be a way to make omnipotent a win/win atma where it came out stronger than other alternatives. Obviously if you were going to use omnipotent atma anyway you should be adjusting your tp set to account for the haste, but it will never be as effective all around as using haste gear and equipping a stronger atma. It sounded like you were encouraging people to use the omnipotent atma in place of alternatives, and that's how I took it. Omnipotent is good for e-peen weaponskill screenshots, but I don't encourage its use outside of that. If I misunderstood your intent and you weren't telling people they should be using omnipotent and adjusting their tp sets accordingly then that's what the confusion was about.

Edited, May 12th 2011 10:05am by Melphina
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#16 May 12 2011 at 12:06 PM Rating: Good
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Lol looks like were all on the same page again. If only it were magic/ja haste.../cry. I havent bothered to make an 'omni' set, but that is mostly because I only have 4/5 AF+2 (missing feet+2), so there is really nothing I can swap around to drop 10% haste and gain anything of any value (cant drop feet for set bonus, and I dont have that 15atk/acc/DA belt so nothing to really swap).

I mostly just use it in large LS style events when my personal role is rather small in an 18 man group, so I like to make people in my LS go 'oooh, ahhh' like a mattress giant commercial.

However, am i dreaming this? I remember something about adjusting the crit RATE cap from dex in an SE note. If that ends up being the case that additional dex can have an impact on crit rate beyond the 20% Ddex cap, then Omni might have a prayer depending on the new formula for it. Is this just wishful thinking, or is this actually happening sometime? I would love to be able to have a more viable dex based atma set including this.
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#17 May 12 2011 at 12:25 PM Rating: Good
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Testing is pointing to no as far as a new dDex formula at this time. I have only seen one or two little blurbs about it though, so that could just be circumstantial.
#18 May 12 2011 at 12:46 PM Rating: Good
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I wouldn't say omni will never ever win though. If all you want is damage, and you happen to need acc, chances are omni will beat every other combo. Taking RR as certain, any combination of what's considered acceptable dd atma (AO,Apoc,Omni, GH and now SS) will provide similar dps. There is always a winner of course, but the difference between them is so small that any new variable added to the table can change this winner.

The discussions i've been into based on using mirke+nusku's sash to counter the dps loss. An extra 8% dw that really does help to bring the combo on par with others. Now we have this Mextli harness. If we are lucky enough to have a 10% dw body, i would say omnipotent could very well be the next best option for us. But well, by the time we do complete this harness, we might not even go inside abyssea anymore lol, who knows.

Edited, May 12th 2011 2:51pm by Laphine
#19 May 12 2011 at 1:55 PM Rating: Good
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I hadnt even considered those DW items. I had forgotten they existed honestly. That is actually a respectable trade. We can 'pretend' that omni is 50dex and 8% DW if we build like that. That sounds considerably more viable as a DD atma.

That is an excellent point. I think i poke around and really look at what all my options are for removing 10% haste (11 since i use rapidus and overcap haste currently ; ;). Perhaps focusing on a significant DW build with Auric and Omni atma might have some real viability......

25% /nin
5% suppa
3% boomerang
5% Belt
3% body (maybe more with new body)
5% Auric
Omni atma
46% DW,
25% haste with AF+2 head/legs/hands, ballerines. (cant think of a convenient way to get 26 without doing homam hands/feet and still be over cap.

Compared to my current (4/5 AF+Homam feet/twilight/rapidus)=27% haste(over cap), 33% DW.

Picking up 13% DW for less than 1% of true haste and some dex/acc/atk seems like a good deal. I will more than make up for the dex/acc with omni. 46% DW with omni/RR/(SS or apoc) might really be competative with the other atma sets and give me some VERY nice SA and WS potential.

/is intrigued. Must look at this more closely and check out exactly what im loosing/gaining with all this gear/atma swaps.

Edited, May 12th 2011 4:12pm by Banalaty
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#20 May 12 2011 at 4:27 PM Rating: Decent
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Kinematics wrote:
RR+SS+Apoc: 352.916

So it does go up a slight bit. You lose the evasion and reduced TP given from the Agi on GH in exchange for the +HP on SS. Out of curiosity I looked at replacing Apoc with GH to get back the TP and evasion advantages.

RR+SS+GH: 351.825

In this case, a miniscule reduction in damage to gain back TP given and evasion, but losing auto-RR. Though the real surprise was that GH was performing on par with Apoc.


Just curious if this comparison took into acount the Counter on GH?

And very curious as to how it plays out in practice. For example I solo a lot of high level stuff. 50 AGL plus counter is a lot of extra attacks avoided/TP Fed for such a minimal difference in damage. This also seems like it would likey be counter balanced by being able to TP in Better DD Gear/Daggers with less time spent casting shadows as well.

Edited, May 12th 2011 6:31pm by Nebo1
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#21 May 12 2011 at 5:27 PM Rating: Excellent
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Nebo1 wrote:
Just curious if this comparison took into acount the Counter on GH?


No. I don't model counter in any of my spreadsheets since the results are so mob/buff/debuff specific. A mob that triple attacks will give you more counter damage than a single-attack mob, unless the mob has ludicrous evasion such that you're missing all your counters, and may or may not be slowed/elegied/paralyzed (anywhere from immune to the debuffs to heavily hindered by them), or if you're evading/blinking the hits away, etc.

Nebo1 wrote:
And very curious as to how it plays out in practice. For example I solo a lot of high level stuff. 50 AGL plus counter is a lot of extra attacks avoided/TP Fed for such a minimal difference in damage. This also seems like it would likey be counter balanced by being able to TP in Better DD Gear/Daggers with less time spent casting shadows as well.


Remember that a lot of the benefit of SS depends on being able to use SA/TA. If you're soloing NMs and can't SA/TA, the relative damage outputs of the atma choices changes a fair bit. Would certainly like to see some 'realistic' parsed comparisons to see how well the predictions hold, even though I know you have to be very careful in analyzing those.

#22 May 12 2011 at 5:48 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Also also: If you remove SA/TA damage (solo tanking an NM or farming sound-agro mobs or whatever), RR+GH+Apoc pulls ahead again in damage by a small bit (~3.5%)


Yeah I was thinking it would lose from a pure DD standpoint, but at such a significant defensive boost (20% HP, 50AGI worth of evasion/parry + Counter + reduced TP Feed) the tradeoff might be worth it in such situations.
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#23 May 12 2011 at 7:19 PM Rating: Good
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I want to add a little response to this thread regarding my earlier thoughts on RR/SS/GH vs RR/SS + AoA and remark that while I stated that AoA increased weaponskill frequency through the extra hits, I neglected to consider the effect that GH had on evisceration, and as kinematics pointed out it's very important.

Today I tried out razed ruins + gnarled horn + Sanguine Scythe for the first time and ya know what... I LIKE IT!! While I could feel the speed difference at the loss of triple attack rate my DoT was monstrous and my weaponskill damage was beyond anything I had ever experienced before. Solo SA and solo TA were averaging around 2K damage and my eviscerations which had previously been averaging ~~2500-3k shot straight up to 4K and beyond as an average, and a SA evisceration which used to do ~~~ 4k was up to 5500 ish. Granted this is one specific example on one mob type, but I underestimated the effect GH had one evisceration and it's a surprisingly good combo. 50 agility/50 dex (25 eva/acc also), 75% melee crit rate (85-90% weaponskill crit rate) and 68% melee crit damage boost (73% sa/ta or weaponskill thanks to loki's) is an incredible feeling. Equipping AoA instead of gnarled horn means more attacks, but the loss of melee crit rate and more importantly evisceration crit rate (at enhanced damage through both SS AND RR) is noticable, so I'm going to readjust my stance on this. I actually like SS/RR/GH, and since AoA over tps a lot I often weapinskill with 120-135 tp even if I'm trying to use it immediately at 100% when I'm using AoA. Razed + gnarled + Sanguine scythe is a **** effective DDing atma combo, and I dare say it's my new favorite of the bunch.

Edited, May 13th 2011 5:55am by Melphina
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#24 May 12 2011 at 9:36 PM Rating: Decent
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It does seem like it would be inherantly synergistic. Especially for THF.
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