Forum Settings
       
« Previous 1 2
Reply To Thread

Raider's Earring > Brutal Earring....Follow

#1 May 02 2011 at 7:16 PM Rating: Excellent
***
2,236 posts

Edit: Editing this to note that this original claim/assertion has since been proven false. Read the thread if you want to know what was going on, but don't take it as a valid state of how things work.



So, there's some unsettling new revelations regarding the relationship between DA and TA coming out in a thread over in this thread, starting about this post. Data appears pretty solid, though more generalized testing is likely to continue.

Caveat: Whether this is a bug (and thus may potentially be fixed) or intentional (and thus remain as it is) is completely unknown at this point.

Executive summary: In calculating your overall chances to proc either DA or TA, in the event that they both proc, *neither* takes effect.

In other words, there is no priority of DA over TA, or TA over DA. The calculations for both of them puts them in the 'under' category.

This has a measurable effect on anyone using Apoc atma, but will have the greatest impact on thf gear choices due to the high TA rate they can achieve.


The math for figuring out the 'actual' DA or TA rate based on 'listed' rates is:

DA = (1 - TA%) * DA%
TA = (1 - DA%) * TA%

It's unknown how quad-attack mixes in with the above. It's also unknown how this may interact with OAT/OA2-3/etc weapons.

So, how much of an impact? Let's consider a fairly high TA thf:

Triple attack
-------------
Base + merits: 10%
Apoc atma: 15%
Triplus offhand: 3%
+2 head: 3%
Epona's Ring: 3%

Total: 34%

Double attack
-------------
Epona's Ring: 3%
Atheling Mantle: 3%
Twilight Belt: 2%

Total: 8%

Suppa for one earring, the other slot left empty.

Total additional attacks per round:
Base: 0.6784
w/Brutal Earring: 0.6774
w/Raider Earring: 0.696


In other words, not only is the Raider's Earring better than Brutal, adding the Brutal Earring actually reduces your hits per round below the -base- level. Raider's, on the other hand, gives about a 1% gain in overall damage (excluding SA/TA).


So, how much TA is necessary for Raider's to beat Brutal?

Going to assume 8% base from the other three items, but will also look at 5% (removing Atheling Mantle)


(TA+1%) * 92% * 2 + 8% * (1-(TA+1%)) = TA * 87% * 2 + 13% * (1-TA)
(.92TA + .0092) * 2 + (.08 - .08TA + 0.0008) = .87TA * 2 + .13 - .13TA
1.84TA + 0.0184 + .08 - .08TA + .0008 = 1.74TA + .13 - .13TA
1.76TA + 0.0992 = 1.61TA + .13
0.15TA = 0.0308
TA = 0.2053


So at 21% and higher total TA, Raider's Earring matches or beats Brutal (not counting the Store TP).


If you remove the Atheling Mantle (using Cavaros or whatever), the threshold is:

(TA+1%) * 95% * 2 + 5% * (1-(TA+1%)) = TA * 90% * 2 + 10% * (1-TA)
(.95TA + .0095) * 2 + (.05 - .05TA + 0.0005) = .90TA * 2 + .10 - .10TA
1.9TA + 0.019 + .05 - .05TA + .0005 = 1.8TA + .1 - .1TA
1.85TA + 0.0695 = 1.7TA + .10
0.15TA = 0.0305
TA = 0.2033

Still the same: 21% or higher.


What if you have no other DA gear at all?

(TA+1%) * 100% * 2 + 0% * (1-(TA+1%)) = TA * 95% * 2 + 5% * (1-TA)
(TA + .01) * 2 = .95TA * 2 + .05 - .05TA
2TA + 0.02 = 1.85TA + .05
0.15TA = 0.03
TA = 0.20

20% TA is when the two earrings are equal (so outside Abyssea Brutal still wins, since you can only really get a max of about 20% from trait/merits/gear).

On the other hand, that 21% threshold means that as soon as you equip Apoc atma, Raider's beats Brutal, regardless of other gear.



And what about the other direction? Adding /war for 10% DA:

(TA+1%) * 85% * 2 + 15% * (1-(TA+1%)) = TA * 80% * 2 + 20% * (1-TA)
(.85TA + .0085) * 2 + (.15 - .15TA + 0.0015) = .80TA * 2 + .20 - .20TA
1.7TA + 0.017 + .15 - .15TA + .0015 = 1.6TA + .2 - .2TA
1.55TA + 0.1685 = 1.4TA + .20
0.15TA = 0.0315
TA = 0.21

And max lucky Fighter's Roll for another 24%:

(TA+1%) * 61% * 2 + 39% * (1-(TA+1%)) = TA * 56% * 2 + 44% * (1-TA)
(.61TA + .0061) * 2 + (.39 - .39TA + 0.0039) = .56TA * 2 + .44 - .44TA
1.22TA + 0.0122 + .39 - .39TA + .0039 = 1.12TA + .44 - .44TA
0.83TA + 0.4061 = 0.68TA + .44
0.15TA = 0.0339
TA = 0.226

With extreme amounts of DA devaluing TA, you'd need 23% TA for the Raider's to win. Still basically as soon as you equip Apoc atma.


Also, with the prior assumption of TA priority over DA, there was no consideration given to DA hurting the impact of the Raider set bonus. Since DA values hinder TA, they also reduce the (admittedly limited) benefit of the AF3+2 set.


Of course I just tossed a Raider's Earring last week since I thought it wouldn't do me any good. Have to get another...




Edited, May 11th 2011 10:14am by Kinematics
#2 May 02 2011 at 9:38 PM Rating: Good
***
3,777 posts
This is very interesting information. This has some real implications on thf/war versus thf/nin in addition to the gear choices. I'm curious though how aetheling mantle stacks up with charger's mantle given this data (or even something like forager's or cerby +1). I always use apoc atma with triplus dagger offhand so my base TA rate is up there. This changes the utility of twilight belt as well in lieu of goading (or bullwhip/speed/V belt). Hmm, I wonder how a setup like this fares versus the double attack set with twilighlt belt and aetheling mantle

Kila +2/ triplus dagger (alternately triplus/rapidus sax), --- bolts or raiders rang (either works)
Raiders +2, Agasaya's Collar, Raider's, Suppa
Raider's +2, raider's +2, eponas, rajas
charger mantle, goading belt, raider's +2, ballerines

That still gives us a full 25% haste (26% for true cap if you use rapidus), and omits the double attack on the belt and mantle in favor of sTP and straight attack. But I'm curious about something.

Quote:
In other words, not only is the Raider's Earring better than Brutal, adding the Brutal Earring actually reduces your hits per round below the -base- level. Raider's, on the other hand, gives about a 1% gain in overall damage (excluding SA/TA).


I never liked raider's earring when I was under the assumption that TA took precedence over DA because 1% is a darn small margin, but even with the understanding that TA and DA cancel the multi proccing out it's still a **** small increase. Would it not be more effective to just equip an aesir ear pendant or merman's earring instead? Last I checked 6-7 attack is worth approximately 2-3% average pDIF increase dependent on existing ratio, and even on the lower end I would think that 2% increase would be enough to overtake the 1% bonus of the raider's earring. Even if you consider tp gain you're looking at an increase of 1% TA which is added to the diminishing returns of an already existing 34% TA rate with apoc + merits + AF hat, triplus, and eponas. How do you feel about using an aesir ear pendant fulltime based on this new data Kinematics? Or do you still think the rauders/suppa is a better combo to tp in.

Edited, May 2nd 2011 11:51pm by Melphina
____________________________
[ffxisig]56619[/ffxisig]

There are 10 kinds of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.
#3 May 02 2011 at 10:40 PM Rating: Excellent
***
2,236 posts
First, a side note. I tweaked the thf spreadsheet to use this new xor calculation and uploaded it (link in sig), separately from the original version. Some of the numbers I'll use here are drawn from that.

For att difference: For the setup in the standard gear set I have on the spreadsheet, cRatio is 1.3272 with the Aesir Ear Pendant, and 1.3087 with no earring. (This is using Bison Steak, which is hitting its cap without the Aesir, so some small loss there.) That's a 1.4% increase in attack value, in line with rough expectations regarding attack.

However SA/TA gear sets (if solo) may use different gear, and Aesir doesn't contribute to weaponskill damage at all. With weaponskills taking up about 40% of all damage, and solo SA/TA taking perhaps 20% more, the actual contribution to total DPS from the Aesir is reduced to (for the spreadsheet config) 0.4%.

Raider's on the other hand adds to TP, so indirectly to weaponskills, and also a tiny fraction of a gain in damage from Empyrean set bonus (more of a footnote; it won't shift final numbers to any notable degree). On the other hand, its contribution in standard TP, separated from SA/TA, is also reduced a bit, such that total gain for it is 0.8%.

So yes, the gain is small, but the alternatives are even smaller. And yes, I plan to get another Raider's Earring myself, as I think it's the best second earring choice at the moment based on what I know.



With regard to the other gear change options you mentioned:

At the moment I have no idea how removing all DA gear would impact results. I'll plug in the comparison on the spreadsheet for a rough guesstimate to see, but consider this to have caveats based on the model used that combine more factors than just the TA change. This assumes solo SA/TA and weaponskills, but doesn't change any gear aside from the base TP set. Atmas: RR+GH+Apoc.

Back: Used Vellaunus since it has the same +20 att as Charger's. Swapping Atheling to Vellaunus... and DPS went up... Only 0.3%, but still...

Also checked Forager's in place of Atheling (after the other changes below). Forager's is also an improvement, though smaller than Vellaunus/Charger's.

Waist: Changed Twilight to Bullwhip, and DPS went up again. (0.2%, 314.419 to 315.112)

Fiddling with other waists like Goading means changing other gear around. Starting with 315.112 using Agasaya+Bullwhip+Homam feet to reach 26%. With Goading+Ballerines+Tiercel, DPS is 315.277. Can't really seem to improve past that, and the difference is basically just different gear to reach the same point.

The original, using Brutal/Atheling/Twilight/Agasaya/Homam feet, was 309.681 DPS. Overall, 1.75% gain by removing most DA (left Epona's on).

#4 May 02 2011 at 11:34 PM Rating: Good
***
3,777 posts
Quote:
So yes, the gain is small, but the alternatives are even smaller. And yes, I plan to get another Raider's Earring myself, as I think it's the best second earring choice at the moment based on what I know.


That's good enough for me. There's no way I could guess something this complex but I was curious about it. I don't doubt your results btw; they're perfectly believable. I'm sure I can grab a raiders earring in the next day or two, so I'll go with that as well.

Quote:

The original, using Brutal/Atheling/Twilight/Agasaya/Homam feet, was 309.681 DPS. Overall, 1.75% gain by removing most DA (left Epona's on).


Based on your OP I was expecting as much. Since we're so heavily associated with triple attack just through traits and our af hat and then adding apoc (and TA just being better than DA) it seems like intentionally adding ANY double attack gear will slow us down, and consequently that means thief/nin is a LOT faster than thf/war. I would still use eponas/rajas over any alternatives though, as I'm sure it's still our strongest ring combination without question. Even if it does add 3% DA the 3% TA coupled with the non interferenced DA'S is still a net gain for sure.

EDIT: I suppose its worth it to copypastega the relevant data from the OP link so it's more readily visible here

lynnminmay wrote
Quote:

-------------------------
Melee Data
Player .... # Melee Attacks .... # Melee Rounds .... Attacks/Round .... # Extra Attacks
Pimpchan .... 11474 .... 8819 .... 1 .... 2655

Player .... # +1 Rounds .... # +2 Rounds .... # +3 Rounds .... # +4 Rounds .... # >+4 Rounds
Pimpchan .... 1180 .... 733 .... 0 .... 1 .... 1

Player .... # MultiAttack Rounds .... MultiAttack % .... Kills w/Min Attacks .... Kills w/<Min Attacks
Pimpchan .... 1915 .... 21,71 % .... 0 .... 0
---------------------------------
Treat As:
Multi-attacks per attack (2x/3x):

Player .... # Double Attacks .... DA Rate .... Perc. DA .... # Triple Attacks ....TA Rate .... Perc. TA
Pimpchan .... 1180 .... 13,38 % .... 61,68 % .... 733 .... 8,31 % .... 38,32 %

Multi-attacks per round (Kicks):

Player .... Footwork? .... # Rounds w/Kicks .... Kick Attack Rate
Pimpchan .... Yes .... 1180 .... 14,60 %

Multi-attacks per attack (Zanshin):

Player .... # Missed First Attacks .... # DA w/Missed First .... Possible Zanshin %
Pimpchan .... 7043 .... 947 .... 13,45 %

Player .... Acc. Rate of First Attacks .... Acc. Rate of Second Attacks
Pimpchan .... 20,14 % .... 18,69 %
---------------------------------------------------------------------
margins of error :

TA rate= 8.31% +/- 0.57%
DA rate= 13.38% +/- 0.71%
multi-attack%=21.71% +/- 0.86%

At best TA rate is 8.88% so this excludes TA being checked first
At best DA rate is 14.09% so this excludes DA being checked first
At best multi attack rate is 22.57% so this excludes both models alltogether

The only explanation I have found so far is that if DA and TA "proc" at the same time, none of them appears. With this model :

DA rate = 0.15*(1-0.10) = 13.5% lies within the above confident interval
TA rate = 0.10*(1-0.15) = 8.5% lies within the above CI
multiattack rate : 0.15*(1-0.10) + 0.10*(1-0.15)= 22% lies within the CI

You heard it here first : 100% TA rate and 100% DA rate means 0% multiattack rate. Suck less SE.


Edited, May 3rd 2011 1:44am by Melphina
____________________________
[ffxisig]56619[/ffxisig]

There are 10 kinds of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.
#5 May 03 2011 at 12:48 AM Rating: Good
Sage
**
523 posts
And so the game changes again. Guess now I've got another reason to amber farm in Tahrongi again. Feel like a fool for not lotting a belt while we were doing Empyreans, but oh well.

Thanks for keeping us up to date on how flailing works.
____________________________
Server - Bahamut
Name - dawdr
Mithra 75thf/40rng/37nin/37war/37drk/37sam
#6 May 03 2011 at 2:24 AM Rating: Good
Sage
***
1,252 posts
I've been using raider's over brutal for a few weeks now just solely based on the TA > DA info, but thanks to you I now know the real reasoning behind it =P.

Dropping DA though completely just seems....eww. But numbers don't lie so I guess I have some more work to do...
____________________________
DNC: 90 THF: 90 RNG: Semi retired @90 RDM: Retired@75

lolblog: http://mithrasmemoirs.blogspot.com/
Elemental Magian Dagger Guide
Gearsets/etc
#7 May 03 2011 at 9:11 AM Rating: Good
***
3,777 posts
Kinematics wrote
Quote:
It's unknown how quad-attack mixes in with the above. It's also unknown how this may interact with OAT/OA2-3/etc weapons.


This is a curious point. If the quad attack cancels out triple attack would it be more detrimental to use it than good? Of all the daggers out there I absolutely love the triplus dagger as my favorite (insane DoT and 3% TA rate/damage increase is nuts), but I've had a hard time choosing a secondary companion. I've had the twilight for two months now but it never impressed me and I rarely used it. I'm currently using fire Kila +2/triplus as my standard dagger setup. I decided to go with a sure thing since kila +2 has the highest DoT rating of any non relic/empy/mythic dagger out there (base DoT rating 13.57 with an additional 9 strength and combined 24.5 attack is monstrous). What does everyone else think of twilight and oa2-3x weapons in this light?
____________________________
[ffxisig]56619[/ffxisig]

There are 10 kinds of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.
#8 May 03 2011 at 9:17 AM Rating: Excellent
***
2,236 posts
Additional caveat: Re-reviewing the math, I think there are some errors in how I'm calculating the new extra attack procs. I'm working on correcting them, but put a hold on believing that removing all DA is beneficial; it may not necessarily be correct.

The basic math for comparing Raider vs Brutal, however, is still correct.
#9 May 03 2011 at 9:57 AM Rating: Excellent
***
2,236 posts
Ok, made the corrections (haven't uploaded yet since I haven't copied the corrections to all the other weaponskill tables), and while corrected average hits per round are slightly higher (and DPS went from 315 to 316), the bit where removing DA improves DPS still holds.
#10 May 03 2011 at 1:45 PM Rating: Good
Sage
***
1,252 posts
Mistress Melphina wrote:
Kinematics wrote
Quote:
It's unknown how quad-attack mixes in with the above. It's also unknown how this may interact with OAT/OA2-3/etc weapons.


This is a curious point. If the quad attack cancels out triple attack would it be more detrimental to use it than good? Of all the daggers out there I absolutely love the triplus dagger as my favorite (insane DoT and 3% TA rate/damage increase is nuts), but I've had a hard time choosing a secondary companion. I've had the twilight for two months now but it never impressed me and I rarely used it. I'm currently using fire Kila +2/triplus as my standard dagger setup. I decided to go with a sure thing since kila +2 has the highest DoT rating of any non relic/empy/mythic dagger out there (base DoT rating 13.57 with an additional 9 strength and combined 24.5 attack is monstrous). What does everyone else think of twilight and oa2-3x weapons in this light?


This is also my current setup. I only use twilight on the off chance that I'm farming something low level and dont want to bother using bolts to keep HP up. I would assume that the quad attack would work like DA and TA, but since it's the only piece of QA gear we have, it shouldnt hurt as much.

As far as OAX weapons go, even if some new data is found about how they interact with DA/TA, the fact that they don't add additional attacks to WSs makes them not worth using IMO.
____________________________
DNC: 90 THF: 90 RNG: Semi retired @90 RDM: Retired@75

lolblog: http://mithrasmemoirs.blogspot.com/
Elemental Magian Dagger Guide
Gearsets/etc
#11 May 03 2011 at 8:03 PM Rating: Excellent
***
3,777 posts
Quote:
Additional caveat: Re-reviewing the math, I think there are some errors in how I'm calculating the new extra attack procs. I'm working on correcting them, but put a hold on believing that removing all DA is beneficial; it may not necessarily be correct.

Ok, made the corrections (haven't uploaded yet since I haven't copied the corrections to all the other weaponskill tables), and while corrected average hits per round are slightly higher (and DPS went from 315 to 316), the bit where removing DA improves DPS still holds.


I'm going to agree that any DA gear is bad on the grounds that we are assuming 30% or more TA rate which basically means atma of apoc + merits and a little gear. Last night I was too tired to think math but I got a chance to ponder how the calculations worked this afternoon and it's actually simple. Instead of giving a step by step instruction on mathing it I'll simply give an example because it's easier for me to show you than try to put into words

With NO DA gear at all if my base TA rate is 30% then I will swing 160 times in every 100 attacks (30% TA == 60 extra swings).

Example 1: adding 5% DA gear (IE: aetheling and twilight belt)
since I have a 30% TA rate only 70% of my swings can proc a DA, thus 70 x 0.05 == 3.5 swings gained from DA
since I have a 30% TA rate 5% of them will be counteracted by DA rate, thus 30 x 0.05 == 1.5 TA procs or 3 swings
My total is 160 swings + 3.5 (increase from non interferenced DA) - 3.0 swings (countered by procing both at once) == 160.5 swings per 100 rounds

Thus with 30% TA rate adding 5% DA rate adds 0.5 swings per 100 rounds but the 4% af3 set bonus alone makes this a complete wash. 160.5/160 == a 1.003125 gain (three thousandths of one percent gain), but you lose a 4% activation on the lost 5% TA rate (28.5/30== 95% TA activations or a 5% loss) which is 100 x 0.04 x 0.05 == 0.2, and since this is a triple damage proc it's worth 2x for a total of 0.4% loss of DoT. The increased tp gain from 1 extra swing in 200 attack rounds means 1 extra weaponskill after 3,000 or more attack rounds (based on a 15 attack round to 100% model), and by then you lose out on 3.6 triple damage procs which again is either a net loss of damage or best case scenario an absolute wash.

However this is not a static rule and when you approach 40% TA rate ANY DA is counterproductive to attack speed period!!

Example 2: adding 1% DA gear to a 40% TA rate
since I have a 40% TA rate only 60% of my swings can proc a DA, thus 60 x 0.01 == 0.6 swings gained from DA
since I have a 40% TA rate 1% of them will be counteracted by DA rate, thus 40 x 0.01 == 0.4 TA procs or 0.8 swings
My total is 180 swings + 0.6 (increase from non interferenced DA) - 0.8 swings (countered by procing both at once) == 179.8 swings per 100 rounds

a net LOSS of attack speed by adding just ONE percent of DA rate.

And yes, kinematics is right on that raiders is better than brutal.

at 30% TA rate adding 5% DA means a bonus of 70 x 0.05 == 3.5 attack rounds from double attack (NON TA procing swings multiplied by DA percent), at the loss of (30 x 0.05) x 2 = 3.0 attacks (TA rate multiplied by interferenced DA procs) == a net gain of 0.5 swings (this is example 1 all over again)

whereas raider's earring increases TA rate by 1% which is a simple bonus of 2 swings in 100 rounds, and last I checked 2 swings is better than 0.5 swings, thus raider's earring is stronger than brutal earring. There's also the added perk of 3 more evasion which is never a bad thing. Basically once you equip the atma of apocalypse any DA gear AT ALL results in a total wash or loss of damage, and the higher your TA rate the larger the loss becomes. Who would have thought? Smiley: frown

EDIT: There is one exception to this rule, and that's epona's ring. Yes, Eponas ring IS better than any alternative, and still results in a net increase in damage. That's because 3%TA/3% DA combined is a LOT of extra attack potential and more than overcomes interferenced procs and will still result in a net increase of over 2% DoT at relatively high TA rates.

Edited, May 4th 2011 9:44am by Melphina
____________________________
[ffxisig]56619[/ffxisig]

There are 10 kinds of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.
#12 May 04 2011 at 9:18 AM Rating: Good
***
2,270 posts
Just....Wow....Such fail programming ><

Excellent information, no matter how disheartening. Many, many kudos to all involved. I suppose i better get a goading or bullwhip then ><

On the other hand, Eponas is far less powerful than originally thought (though still very nice), at the 'high' TA levels described, it ends up being ~2% more melee. This is making me reconsider dusting off my mars ring (which has seen very little play for me sadly after getting it). 2% is not nearly as impressive as it once was thought to be. 8acc/atk is starting to sound far more appealing.

This does make me sadpanda about /war. Even if we DO get native DW 3, /war will basically just be /zerk at the expense of a ludicrous amount of survivability. If we get DW3, we may have to look into some other jobs besides /war for max power. /Drg may actually come back in vogue. Jumps, hate shed, and being able to 5/5 raiders set, drop down to say a goading belt, and still cap 26% haste with acc/atk bonus. Honestly, /drk with the new change to last resort matching zerk will make /drk just as good DD wise as /war but add stun and some spike damage with soul eater if we feel like it. The raw STP/Sekka/Meditate from /sam alone might actually be competative with zerk alone. Many strange things might actually work since we are taking the balls off of /war.

/goes to get raider's earring and something to replace twilight belt....and my beloved atheling ; ;
____________________________
Aanalaty, Mithra of San d'Oria
99Thf/99Drg/99Rng/95Pld/Secret Job 92
Bonecraft-100+3 7/29/08
Lu Shangs-5/28/08
Twashtar-90
Ryunohige-75: 1/7/2012
Mandau-75: 3/9/2012

Maat-1/1 Thf Meleed (pansies steal)
Some of mah gearz: http://www.ffxiah.com/player/Lakshmi/Aanalaty#item-sets
Join 'People Against The Heart Snatcher' and help put Thfs on the right P.A.T.H.S. today!
#13 May 04 2011 at 11:21 AM Rating: Decent
15 posts
Vellaunus' Mantle isn't an option on my server. (Conflux 7 isn't opened, and I have enough other things to do with my time than get into WoE.) My understanding is that the STR on Cerb Mantle +1 is "wasted" inside Abyssea since cruor buffs should put me over fSTR cap, therefore Charger Mantle is my next best option after Vellaunus'? Blech...
#14 May 04 2011 at 2:46 PM Rating: Decent
Jack of All Trades
******
29,628 posts
Probably going to just keep using Twilight Belt anyway most of the time, because I really don't want to deal with the loss of HP and resistances on my THF (the HP drop alone is already a painful enough drop from MNK). In a group setting I suppose it wouldn't matter as much, but if I'm on THF at all, I am most likely lowmanning/tanking, and I am learning the hard way about how THF's low HP score (in comparison to MNK, anyway) makes certain NMs unfeasible without taking additional defensive measures.

****, as it is, I often wear HP rings on my THF just for the added survivability (Meridian + BQ ring actually provide a pretty potent HP boost in Abyssea), and I figure it would be less of an impact on performance to replace DD rings than it would be to replace a DD atma.

Even with just the BQ ring, I've found that I still need to be careful. I got 1-shotted in Ifrit's Cauldron just last night while farming a coffer key for a friend. She was 60NIN and took about 700 damage from a Self-Destruct; I was 90THF with the BQ ring on and took about 1300. @_@

Edited, May 4th 2011 4:48pm by Fynlar
#15 May 04 2011 at 3:35 PM Rating: Decent
****
4,447 posts
Fynlar wrote:
Even with just the BQ ring, I've found that I still need to be careful. I got 1-shotted in Ifrit's Cauldron just last night while farming a coffer key for a friend. She was 60NIN and took about 700 damage from a Self-Destruct; I was 90THF with the BQ ring on and took about 1300. @_@

Edited, May 4th 2011 4:48pm by Fynlar


Quoting this so you can see your silliness and not cover it up =P

You see the other effect of the BQ ring? It basically means you're not going to resist fire-based attacks at all. So while you should have a partial resist going on based on your level, BQ ring means you're going to take full damage from a fire attack. Hence it's stupid to use a BQ ring against anything with formidable fire-based attacks.

To the actual thread topic: This is good to know, and while yes, it's poor programming, I kinda like it in a way. Now I know to avoid Double Attack, which means I can focus on all the other stats in the game. It essentially removes a stat from our stat balancing, which makes things easier, imo. Also I like how the Af3+2 set bonus works and plan to stack the **** out of Triple Attack, so this means to keep stacking it, even at the loss of double attack, woo!

Edited, May 4th 2011 5:41pm by SirEaglestrike
____________________________
Ladyofhonor: 99THF/RUN
101+7 Alchemy
Zilart/CoP/ToAU complete.
Mandau 119
#16 May 04 2011 at 4:39 PM Rating: Good
Sage
***
1,252 posts
I'm actually quite disappointed with the findings only because I have to lose once beloved gear (mainly atheling and twilight, and yet not really worried about going raider's > brutal earring). Really now regretting selling my speed belt back when I got twilight ; ;

At the same time truth > all so I'm glad that the info surfaced. Oh well...back to amemet +1 until I can find a decent replacement lol...
____________________________
DNC: 90 THF: 90 RNG: Semi retired @90 RDM: Retired@75

lolblog: http://mithrasmemoirs.blogspot.com/
Elemental Magian Dagger Guide
Gearsets/etc
#17 May 04 2011 at 5:21 PM Rating: Decent
Jack of All Trades
******
29,628 posts
Quote:
Quoting this so you can see your silliness and not cover it up =P

You see the other effect of the BQ ring? It basically means you're not going to resist fire-based attacks at all. So while you should have a partial resist going on based on your level, BQ ring means you're going to take full damage from a fire attack. Hence it's stupid to use a BQ ring against anything with formidable fire-based attacks.


I know all that. >_>

I didn't mean to have the BQ ring equipped on purpose; I still had BQ+Meridian on from a previous Abyssea run. I just plain forgot about it. Needless to say, the higher HP was not worth taking nearly double the damage as the 60NIN.

Clarification:
What I was referring to by "just the BQ ring" was that the Bullwhip Belt is packing many more types of reduced resistances than the BQ ring does, not to mention the HP cut on it too. The BQ ring is a far "safer" item (only one resistance cut and +HP instead of -HP) but it was still enough to doom me in that one particular scenario. >_>

Edited, May 4th 2011 7:24pm by Fynlar
#18 May 04 2011 at 5:28 PM Rating: Good
***
3,777 posts
TBH I don't mind the findings too much because I like the alternatives. I already have goading which adds sTP anyway and I'm a little enmity hog with +4 (soon to be +5) enmity merits so I also like the enmity it has. I'll probably add in cerberus mantle +1 or forager's mantle and try and get a favorable FoV augment if there isn't anything in the Tuesday update for my back. That in mind, we ARE getting a version update on Tuesday so I wouldn't go ape sh*t changing gear around just yet. Raiders earring is fast and easy to get so I'll grab that ASAP but I'm not expending copious amounts of energy or money changing my gear until after Tuesday. I can wait 7 days to find out if today's best is still best in a weeks time, and if it is I'll get the upgrades then (and if it isn't I'll go after the new best stuff instead).

Edited, May 4th 2011 7:30pm by Melphina
____________________________
[ffxisig]56619[/ffxisig]

There are 10 kinds of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.
#19 May 05 2011 at 8:10 AM Rating: Good
***
2,270 posts
Quote:
TBH I don't mind the findings too much because I like the alternatives.


I dont really mind it in regards to changing gear. I mind it because it grabs /war by the bawls and pulls. I have been looking forward to (hopefully) DW3 on Thf main at 95/99 and finally free us from /nin and get back to the raw power of Thf/war and have the option to be a **** on wheels DD 2handed or not. (similar to what dancer and nin are already capable of). Honestly, /war is probably inferior to /nin in nearly every situation now. It is basically zerk vs 10% DW at best. Negative damage from DA +zerk damage vs 10% DW at worst. Thf/Nin4life because of a bug? Rediculous.

I dont mind gear being gimp and this and that as there are lots of options and some gear is always better than other gear. **** is situational and all that. But, to limit our subjob capabilities because of (what can only be described as) a 'bug' in the coding is completely unacceptable to me. Truth or not, its sloppy, lazy, and should promptly be fixed as a technical issue by SE.

This is a bug and should be treated as such. I strongly encourage everyone to put this in as a bug report.
____________________________
Aanalaty, Mithra of San d'Oria
99Thf/99Drg/99Rng/95Pld/Secret Job 92
Bonecraft-100+3 7/29/08
Lu Shangs-5/28/08
Twashtar-90
Ryunohige-75: 1/7/2012
Mandau-75: 3/9/2012

Maat-1/1 Thf Meleed (pansies steal)
Some of mah gearz: http://www.ffxiah.com/player/Lakshmi/Aanalaty#item-sets
Join 'People Against The Heart Snatcher' and help put Thfs on the right P.A.T.H.S. today!
#20 May 05 2011 at 8:28 AM Rating: Decent
****
4,447 posts
I fully agree with Banalaty there. Was just thinking that today that means all my thf/war talk in years past was actually counterproductive =p Though I guess back in the days of 5-10% TA and 10% DA, this issue didn't apply much.

Of course I'm probably more disappointed to see I was reading the wiki wrong and Atma of the Lion is lightning elemental attack and not the actual physical attack I thought it was -.- I thought it would be TA+10%, attack+50 and phys damage-10%, which would've been godly =/
____________________________
Ladyofhonor: 99THF/RUN
101+7 Alchemy
Zilart/CoP/ToAU complete.
Mandau 119
#21 May 05 2011 at 11:58 AM Rating: Decent
*
59 posts
Banalaty wrote:
This does make me sadpanda about /war. Even if we DO get native DW 3, /war will basically just be /zerk at the expense of a ludicrous amount of survivability. If we get DW3, we may have to look into some other jobs besides /war for max power. /Drg may actually come back in vogue. Jumps, hate shed, and being able to 5/5 raiders set, drop down to say a goading belt, and still cap 26% haste with acc/atk bonus. Honestly, /drk with the new change to last resort matching zerk will make /drk just as good DD wise as /war but add stun and some spike damage with soul eater if we feel like it. The raw STP/Sekka/Meditate from /sam alone might actually be competative with zerk alone. Many strange things might actually work since we are taking the balls off of /war.


/COR. It's still a flat 280 damage (negligible in Abyssea, sure, but not irrelevant outside) for QD before any MAB gear, of which there's....more now, feeds the mob no TP, generates extra TP for you comparable to Meditate (much more than DRG, at least), and gives you access to a Light-based Sleep and a Dispel more reliable than Aura Steal. And hey, Rogue's Roll.

Buy my culverins, puppets!

EDIT: According to wiki calculations, a QD shot from Culv + Cannon Shell (1060 delay) should come out to 18.4 TP before any Store TP in your QD set, which you'd probably use in non-MAB slots, because why not?

Edited, May 5th 2011 2:12pm by pacobirdley

Edited, May 5th 2011 4:10pm by pacobirdley
#22 May 05 2011 at 1:57 PM Rating: Good
***
3,777 posts
I had almost forgotten about it when I got my aetheling mantle, but let's not forget belenos' mantle as a back option. 8 accuracy, 8 attack, and sTP +2. That's not bad at all.

Edited, May 5th 2011 4:47pm by Melphina
____________________________
[ffxisig]56619[/ffxisig]

There are 10 kinds of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.
#23 May 05 2011 at 2:05 PM Rating: Excellent
Sage
***
1,304 posts
Lets not forget that this is one person posting parse data, and we have another topic here on the first page with similar quantity parse data showing that this isn't the case. So maybe it isn't yet time to yell "The sky is falling" and drop our twilight belts, atheling mantles, and brutal earrings...

Needs more proof is all I am saying.
#24 May 05 2011 at 2:12 PM Rating: Excellent
***
2,236 posts
Meldi wrote:
Lets not forget that this is one person posting parse data, and we have another topic here on the first page with similar quantity parse data showing that this isn't the case. So maybe it isn't yet time to yell "The sky is falling" and drop our twilight belts, atheling mantles, and brutal earrings...

Needs more proof is all I am saying.


Indeed. I'm running more tests myself, and finding there could be flaws in KParser's grouping algorithm (not entirely surprising; it's always been a bit fussy). Given that I suspect all data was collected/analyzed with KParser (the other topic on this page doesn't specify), there's no absolute certainty that either of them are correct.

I'll be working on the program tonight to see if I can fix things up.
#25 May 05 2011 at 2:20 PM Rating: Good
Sage
***
1,304 posts
I may actually dust off my kparser(haven't parsed anything for about 8 months) and try to contribute some. I wish I had a trick staff or something that is 1 dmg so I could do the -fSTR method on a hpmede or something. I will have to see if I can figure something out.
#26 May 05 2011 at 6:45 PM Rating: Excellent
***
2,236 posts
Looks like I may have jumped the gun a bit. Found an issue with KParser's grouping that's now been tweaked (downloadable now if you want it before the release that will be out after next week's patch), but it caused invalid results in the DA/TA calculations. Still needs to be verified with the original parse data, but for now I'm recanting this thread's assertion.

Sorry for causing the panic here. I had implicit trust in the handling of the calculations in KParser that was unfortunately misplaced.


Brutal retakes its lead over Raiders:

34% TA, 8% DA

Extra attacks per round:
Base: 0.7328
w/Brutal Earring: 0.7658
w/Raider Earring: 0.7528
« Previous 1 2
Reply To Thread

Colors Smileys Quote OriginalQuote Checked Help

 

Recent Visitors: 1 All times are in CDT
Anonymous Guests (1)