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WS set up helpFollow

#1 Feb 21 2011 at 11:01 PM Rating: Decent
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i only recently (like 3 weeks ago) started a WS set up, i waited until after i had all my +2 thf gear cause i didn't see much of a difference before hand. depending on the monster i'll use mandalic stab or evisceration or a combo of the 2. mandalic stab is nice with mobs like amarok that you can tank them from behind for SA i found.
anyways, this is my set up, i've kinda ran into a dead end after looking through all the abyssea nms on wiki.

head: Deceit Mask
body: Loki's Kaftan
hands: Raider's Armlets+2
legs: Matre Bragezenn
feet: Lithe Boots
neck: Shadow Gorget
back: Nifty Mantle
waist: Shadow Belt
ear1: brutal Earring
ear2: Thunder Earring
ring1: Airy Ring
ring2: Thunder Ring

as far as i can tell i only know 4 pieces to upgrade, Aias Bonnet, 2x thundersoul rings, and a Jupiter earring
is there any ways to get more DEX or damage onto my WS set? also, i should be getting Rudra's storm soon from empyrean weapon, probably about 2 more weeks, and that's why i've been putting a WS set together.
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#2 Feb 22 2011 at 5:14 AM Rating: Decent
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What is the value of the element belts compared to Cuchulain's or even Warwolf?

As to the OP, get some Tumbler Trunks instead of the Bragezenn (particularly with that -sTP).
#3 Feb 22 2011 at 8:13 AM Rating: Decent
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For back go with cavaros for inside abyssea and atheling for outside. Would also do aesir ear instead of dex earring.
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#4 Feb 22 2011 at 1:03 PM Rating: Decent
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Atheling is better than Cavaros almost all the time. It's the answer to almost anything for DD.

EDIT: Don't know why ammo isn't included but Qirmiz Tathlum.

Edited, Feb 22nd 2011 4:40pm by Neisan
#5 Feb 22 2011 at 3:00 PM Rating: Decent
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You're more than likely to have both RR and triple attack atmas in abyssea so it really comes down to 20 attack vs 3% crit damage. Didnt do the math on it, but i would assume that the crit damage would give you more of a boost ( unless for some reason you were capped which i doubt most people would).

I would love to see some numbers though to prove either way.
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#6 Feb 22 2011 at 4:48 PM Rating: Decent
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20 attack and 3 DA. Last time I looked at it Atheling was better for overall damage even if critical hit damage was uncapped (especially for thf since they rarely /war and have berserk). 30 RR 5 Loki's 5 Qirmiz 8 trait and that's 48 crit hit damage... Cavaros is only giving 2 crit hit damage and easily loses.



Edited, Feb 22nd 2011 6:51pm by Neisan
#7 Feb 23 2011 at 7:23 PM Rating: Decent
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i didn't include ammo cause i typically use raider's boomerang for the added duel wield, i updated my signiture to include a link to what i normally tp in, although i sometimes switch out the af3+2 feet for ballerines if the mob i'm fighting has low acc on me. i do mostly duo/trio stuff where i'm tanking so the boost from evasion torque and af3+2 feet has shown a big difference.
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#8 Feb 24 2011 at 2:56 AM Rating: Decent
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Neisan wrote:
20 attack and 3 DA.
I think Kalisa's point in leaving out the 3% DA was that it's not as worthwhile as you'd normally think.

Say each hit on 6hit (5 hits + one offhand) WS does 100dmg. You can only have max 8 attacks per WS. Assume 100% Accuracy.

With 25% TA and 10% DA, and two oppertunities to DA/TA, saying each hit on a WS does 100 damage, over 100 WSs:
No TA/DA: 60000 damage (100*600)
25% TA: (56.25*600)+(43.75*800)= 68750, +8750 Increase
10% DA: (81*600)+(18*700)+(1*800)= 62000, +2000 Increase
Therefor, adding both DA and TA should be (8750+2000) = +10750 right?

Wrong, DA checks before TA and if DA procs on that hit, it means TA (which would add more damage than DA) can't proc. So actually the numbers look like this: (45.56*600)+(13.5*700)+(40.94*800)= 69538. So actually the 10% DA has not added +2000 damage over those 100 WSs (at each hit doing 100dmg) it's only added +788 damage, which is only about 40% of what you'd expect.

Essentially on 6 hit WSs like DE and Evis, the bonus from adding DA shouldn't just be calulated as a simple (New DA/Old DA = % increase). What you need to do is roughly (New DA/Old DA)*40% So for example, adding 10% DA ontop of 0% DA is not a 10% increase to damage in that WS, it's actually only about 4%.

To put this to actual equipment, say you're using Brutal Earring as your only source of DA during a WS. Adding 3% DA from Atheling would normally be an increase of 2.86% (108/105) but because of what I wrote above it's actually only a 1.14% increase, which a lot less.

Edited, Feb 24th 2011 1:25pm by Noodles
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#9 Feb 24 2011 at 6:26 AM Rating: Decent
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I could be wrong but didn't recent testing suggest TA actually procs over DA, or was I dreaming when I saw those posts?.
#10 Feb 24 2011 at 6:29 AM Rating: Good
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Noodles wrote:
Wrong, DA checks before TA and if DA procs on that hit, it means TA (which would add more damage than DA) can't proc. So actually the numbers look like this: (45.56*600)+(13.5*700)+(40.94*800)= 69538. So actually the 10% DA has not added +2000 damage over those 100 WSs (at each hit doing 100dmg) it's only added +788 damage, which is only about 40% of what you'd expect.

I think you might want take a look at this thread
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#11 Feb 24 2011 at 7:24 AM Rating: Decent
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Neraya wrote:
Noodles wrote:
Wrong, DA checks before TA and if DA procs on that hit, it means TA (which would add more damage than DA) can't proc. So actually the numbers look like this: (45.56*600)+(13.5*700)+(40.94*800)= 69538. So actually the 10% DA has not added +2000 damage over those 100 WSs (at each hit doing 100dmg) it's only added +788 damage, which is only about 40% of what you'd expect.

I think you might want take a look at this thread
If that's the case then you can diregard my last post, unless Kalisa was under the impression DA takes priority too, at which point it would still be useful to understand why they neglected the DA on atheling, even if the data it's self and their assumption aren't accurate.

So, with TA taking priority, the split would be (45.5625*600)+(10.125*700)+(44.3125*800) which is 69875. This is 56.25% of what you'd expect instead of the 4% I state above. With that in mind, the formula will now be 56.25% of (New DA/Old DA). Using the same example at the end of my las post, the 3% DA from Atheling (with Brutal as only other source of DA) works out as a 2.86% increase with no TA, but with 25% TA it works out as only an increase of 1.61. Not 1.14% as I stated above. It's still a substantial amount less than the 2.86% you'd get if you had no TA though. In short: Either way (whichever takes priority) the boost from DA is always diminished if you have a source of TA.
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#12 Feb 24 2011 at 8:01 AM Rating: Default
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I assumed 33% TA (Trait + Merits+Apoc+Raider+2 Head+Epona's) and 13% DA (Brutal+Epona's+Twilight (+Atheling 3%).

Edited, Feb 24th 2011 10:02am by Neisan
#13 Feb 24 2011 at 8:03 AM Rating: Decent
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Neisan wrote:
I assumed 33% TA (Trait + Merits+Apoc+Raider+2 Head+Epona's) and 13% DA (Brutal+Epona's+Twilight (+Atheling 3%).

Edited, Feb 24th 2011 10:02am by Neisan
The boosst from DA will be diminished even more then.
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#14 Feb 24 2011 at 8:50 AM Rating: Default
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The problem is I have the attack alone beating Cavaros without berserk (attack isn't capped without buffs), even more so versus higher level targets.
#15 Feb 24 2011 at 9:53 AM Rating: Decent
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With the whole DA vs TA thing, my assumptions were that most people would have an overall higher amount of TA than DA after atma, gear, and merits were added in and that of course only one can proc at a time (per hand and on WS). In saying that, I also would assume that adding more DA diminishes your TA procs, therefore actually hurting your overall damage (especially with af3+2 pieces).

So as i said before it really comes down to the crit damage and attack.
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#16 Feb 24 2011 at 10:20 AM Rating: Good
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Neisan wrote:
The problem is I have the attack alone beating Cavaros without berserk (attack isn't capped without buffs), even more so versus higher level targets.


No you don't.

First, you don't have a specific defense value or actual level attributed to any mob in abyssea. So you really don't have any idea what atk is really doing. Based on "guesses" on my own, mobs in abyssea have anywhere from 500 to 600 defense. This means that, if those guesses are right, 20 atk will give you anywhere from .033 cRatio (600 defense) to 0.040 (500 defense). Assuming that you have a base cRatio of 1.000, on a normal hit, attack will increase damage on your hit by 3.3 - 4%, on a critical hit, it is only increasing your damage by 1.65 - 2%. When youre base attack is higher, these numbers get lower.

Second, Cavaros Mantle adds to your damage After your cRatio has been taken into account. Which means on critical hits, Cavaros gives a relative cRatio bonus of 0.06 starting at cRatio 1.000. Now, this is only on critical hits, so it offers nothing on normal hits. But we are talking about abyssea with atmas that increase our critical hit chance on a WS that also increases our chance to crit.

Ok, some hypothetical situations.
Abyssea - RR atma, no other + crit rate gear or atmas, base cRatio 1.000, capped crit rate of 24% from stats/merits
Expected crit rate 100% TP Evisceration = ~64%
Expected crit damage up 38%
Expected mob defense = 600 (bonus from attack = 0.033 cRatio)
Base Damage = lets say 140 since I don't know how @ works now
Hits 6

Damage with +20 atk:
3.84 Crits + 2.16 Normal hits - 1820 Damage

Damage with 3% crit damage
3.84 Crits + 2.16 Normal hits - 1818 Damage

Essentially equal damage IF your cRatio is 1.000 and mobs have 600 defense. Now add GH atma to this.

Expected crit rate 100% TP Evisceration = ~84%

Damage with +20 atk:
5.04 Crits + 0.96 Normal hits - 2125 Damage

Damage with 3% crit damage
5.04 Crits + 0.96 Normal Hits - 2124 Damage

Again, essentially equal damage for both items in this completely hypothetical situation. So now you have some questions to answer.

1) Does the double attack matter? Noodles addressed that for the most part

2) what is the actual defense of mobs in abyssea? If it is higher than 600 then the bonus from atk is less than 0.033 cRatio. If it is lower than 600, #3 is important.

3) what is your actual cRatio? I am betting it is higher than 1.000

These two pieces are essentially the same if you don't account for the Double Attack. I feel that Atheling has a slight edge over Cavaros when accounting for the double attack.

Edit: Outside abyssea, Atheling should win handily.

Edited, Feb 24th 2011 10:22am by Meldi
#17 Feb 24 2011 at 11:53 AM Rating: Default
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Assumed 420 defense admittedly, raising the defense value lowered the gap, in which case Atheling should win slightly/tie inside and win outside.

Edited, Feb 24th 2011 1:53pm by Neisan
#18 Feb 24 2011 at 11:59 AM Rating: Decent
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Technically speaking, if we're talking stacked with SA, particularly since he has +2 hands, Nifty Mantle is the way to go. Obviously just for SA... but it will beat out Atheling and, apparently, Cavaros.
#19 Feb 24 2011 at 2:39 PM Rating: Decent
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Ok so with it said having the 20 attack beating the crit % of cavaros, would atheling still win out due to the DA? Even though its only a 2% increase, it has the potential to block you TA proc, and as I stated before if you're using af3+2 you're also missing out on the extra TA damage.

And ill just throw this in here, but is there really any use for cavaros?

Sorry to keep this going, just wanna make sure im fully informed here. I have both mantles btw so its not an issue of "i have this therefore my way is the right way"
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#20 Feb 24 2011 at 3:15 PM Rating: Good
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1) check the links above, latest tests are showing TA procing over DA, not the other way around. So Atheling has no impact on TA or negative effect on gear like AF3 +2 bonus or Triplus Dagger.

2) tldr version of what I did above, Atheling really only wins on attack alone when you are < 1.000 cRatio, having higher cRatio makes Cavaros much more attractive, and you probably have a higher cRatio than 1.000. The DA on Atheling is an added bonus which gives it a very slight edge on Cavaros, but they are both at most side grades. Personally, we have access to so much TA + DA gear and atmas, I would lean towards Cavaros still. But as I have niether I can't actually say that empirically.
#21 Feb 24 2011 at 3:48 PM Rating: Decent
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No, I don't want to hear that!!! I have Atheling and was passing on several Cavaros drops last week...
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#22 Feb 24 2011 at 3:57 PM Rating: Good
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They are so close that I wouldn't sweat it dude. With Atheling up, not down.

Edited, Feb 24th 2011 3:57pm by Meldi
#23 Feb 24 2011 at 10:20 PM Rating: Good
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Kalisa wrote:
In saying that, I also would assume that adding more DA diminishes your TA procs, therefore actually hurting your overall damage (especially with af3+2 pieces).
Kalisa wrote:
Even though its only a 2% increase, it has the potential to block you TA proc, and as I stated before if you're using af3+2 you're also missing out on the extra TA damage.
Oh come on seriously I wrote out two posts on this subject in this topic. Not only that the posts was written out to originally back up your point that the DA was a very small upgrade. I do that and you don't even bother to read or even acknolege their existance?

That is actually really @#%^ing frustrating.

Edited, Feb 25th 2011 5:13am by Noodles
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#24 Feb 25 2011 at 3:52 AM Rating: Good
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You're right, I actually did read your posts and still wrote what I did

Memory lapse, brain fart, quickly trying to reply at work when not really paying attention, call it what you will..

For once, My apologies.
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