2,045 posts

Which feet are better for TP, Ballerines to cap haste or Raider's Poulaines +2 for set bonus which would leave me at 23% haste?

Every other slot has +2 in it so the feet would complete the set to TP in.

Every other slot has +2 in it so the feet would complete the set to TP in.

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Scholar

6,580 posts

If you're at 23% before the feet and ballerines put you at 27% then you should be concidering homam or dusk+1 instead as they'll have effectively the same haste but wont have the -attack of ballerines

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Dragoon Equipment Guide

ArsDraconis wrote:

Ultima spends 10 whole seconds shouting "I'MA FIRIN MAH LAZER" like a 2004 valkurm melee waiting for SC

Sage

2,270 posts

The triple attack damage boost is still an abysmally small number of your total hits that hitting faster is just better. Also what noodles said. if you dont need the full 4% haste, getting 6acc and 5atk back from switching back to homam=win.

99Thf/99Drg/99Rng/95Pld/Secret Job 92

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Sage

1,056 posts

Banalaty wrote:

The triple attack damage boost is still an abysmally small number of your total hits that hitting faster is just better. Also what noodles said. if you dont need the full 4% haste, getting 6acc and 5atk back from switching back to homam=win.

This. It's been said to death, but haste is such a powerful stat in large amounts. I haven't had enough coffee to go through the formulas or look up the graphs, but just off the top of my head that 3% haste you'd be losing out on with AF+2 feet could account for something like a 10-15% drop in overall DoT. Unless the set bonus is much, much better than I've heard, it shouldn't even come close to closing that gap.

Sage

269 posts

Has anyone (this site or otherwise) done the math on the % damage increase of going from 4/5 to 5/5 Raider's +2? It's hard to compare without numbers (which would depend on atma's used ofc).

Since rapidus is currently a fairly good dagger, I'm curious how a 5/5 af + tiercel neck + rapidus (25% haste) set compares to a 4/5 26% haste (true cap) set. Particularly in an acc capped scenario (common), as we can safely assume the higher acc set would win otherwise.

Since rapidus is currently a fairly good dagger, I'm curious how a 5/5 af + tiercel neck + rapidus (25% haste) set compares to a 4/5 26% haste (true cap) set. Particularly in an acc capped scenario (common), as we can safely assume the higher acc set would win otherwise.

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Sage

1,056 posts

Not sure, and I haven't really heard much on the proc rate of the THF set bonus. The only thing is that it would really have to be a fairly decent boost going from 4/5 to 5/5, since even 1% haste in near cap situations is a pretty big difference. I don't know the exact math on this, however, and I don't know the proc rate of +2 set bonuses for THF, so I could very easily be wrong in my assumption.

EDIT: Another thought, Twashtar could possibly boost an uncapped haste 5/5 set with Aftermath. Again, no maths on this, just an idea that should be tested.

*Edited, Feb 19th 2011 2:54pm by Mikourei *

EDIT: Another thought, Twashtar could possibly boost an uncapped haste 5/5 set with Aftermath. Again, no maths on this, just an idea that should be tested.

Scholar

2,232 posts

How is everyone so certain that the bonus by adding another AF+2 piece is clearly beat out by 1.% haste?

head/legs/twilight/body/rapidus = 6/5/7/5/1 or 23.44% haste. It seems like we need to know the increase in rate of activation by adding a single piece to know if 1.56% haste beats the added damage with a 28% triple attack rate (apoc/merits/AFhead).

Or at the very least we need to know a "bounded" value for the additional piece (i.e. it's more than 1% but less than 10%) so we can calculate.

I'm not saying the extra haste isn't more valuable--I'm saying for how absolutely certain everyone is on this point I would think we'd have at least a bounded idea of this increase and a comparison has been done comparing the above scenario.

head/legs/twilight/body/rapidus = 6/5/7/5/1 or 23.44% haste. It seems like we need to know the increase in rate of activation by adding a single piece to know if 1.56% haste beats the added damage with a 28% triple attack rate (apoc/merits/AFhead).

Or at the very least we need to know a "bounded" value for the additional piece (i.e. it's more than 1% but less than 10%) so we can calculate.

I'm not saying the extra haste isn't more valuable--I'm saying for how absolutely certain everyone is on this point I would think we'd have at least a bounded idea of this increase and a comparison has been done comparing the above scenario.

Scholar

6,580 posts

1% haste will give a bonus of 1.7% going from 24 to 25% with 15% Spell.

A bit under 40% of your melee strikes will be 2nd or 3rd hits from TA (With 10% DA and 27% TA). The increase on set bonus going from 4 to 5 pieces is what? 8% with 4 to 10% with 5 or something?

300% increase from a triple damage proc. Increasing proc rate by 2% so 2% of 300 is 6%. This is only on 40% of melee strikes. 40% of 6 is 2.4%. Melee damage makes up about 60% of your total DoT, triple damage procs only affect TP phase damage and add nothing to WS frequency or damage. 60% of 2.4 is 1.44.

1.7 > 1.44

Simplified math in set bonus's favour. Should have explained that simple enough that if the increase in proc rate from going from 4>5 pieces is higher than 2%, it should be easy to plug in.

A bit under 40% of your melee strikes will be 2nd or 3rd hits from TA (With 10% DA and 27% TA). The increase on set bonus going from 4 to 5 pieces is what? 8% with 4 to 10% with 5 or something?

300% increase from a triple damage proc. Increasing proc rate by 2% so 2% of 300 is 6%. This is only on 40% of melee strikes. 40% of 6 is 2.4%. Melee damage makes up about 60% of your total DoT, triple damage procs only affect TP phase damage and add nothing to WS frequency or damage. 60% of 2.4 is 1.44.

1.7 > 1.44

Simplified math in set bonus's favour. Should have explained that simple enough that if the increase in proc rate from going from 4>5 pieces is higher than 2%, it should be easy to plug in.

DRG BRD TH4 RNG RDM75

Dragoon Equipment Guide

ArsDraconis wrote:

Ultima spends 10 whole seconds shouting "I'MA FIRIN MAH LAZER" like a 2004 valkurm melee waiting for SC

Sage

75 posts

Nice way to math that out Noodles, i'd like to add some critiques if i may.

How did you find the 40% of our hits would be 2nd and 3rd from triple? With the same rates (27 triple, 10 double) i found 33%ish(27*2/161.3). But the main issue is why only use 2nd and 3rd hits? The set bonus procs on every hit as far as i know and experienced.

I don't get why ppl still use gh on dd atma combo. An old post here showed RR/AO/Apoc being better. Kinematics' spreadsheets also favors this combo for both dnc/war and nin/war without kannagi. Shouldn't be any different for us, even with our base 10% triple. So in usual situation - talking about normal mobs/easy nms as i don't have the guts to use AO on hard nms if i'm solo tanking - a thf could be rolling with a max 44% triple attack. With 44% triple almost 70% of melee hits comes from triples (44*3/195.28).

One with Twash could also favor rapidus instead of triplus or any other higher delay weapon (as Banalty observed some time ago) so we could increase the ODDD frequency. Not only does the combo has better raw dps, but a 5/5 af makes use of the 1% haste on rapidus too.

It should come out like this in the end:

~~6% on 50% of melee hits (27% triple) on 60% melee damage: 1.8% increase. ~~

6% on 67% of melee hits (44% triple) on 60% melee damage: 2.4% increase.

Well, now that i stopped to think about it, we shouldn't use that 2% coming from 10-8 on af5/5 - af4/5. We actually need to use something like what we use to calculate the average number of hits per hand.

Idk what's our af proc rate. I thought it was 5% on 5/5? Let's use 5% for now, and take 4/5 af as 3%.

With 5% proc rate: 95% of our triples will do normal damage. 5% will do triple.

0.95*1 + 0.05*3 = 1.1; 10% increase on overall triple damage.

With 3% proc rate: 97% of our triples will do normal damage. 3% will do triple.

0.97*1 + 0.03*3 = 1.06; 6% increase on overall triple damage.

To get our actual increase in dps we just need to multiply these numbers by those we had before. The % that triple hits compromise to our mult hit average, and % that dot compromises to our overall damage. So taking 44% triple and 60% dot damage we have:

10% * 0.67 * 0.6 = 4.02% increase to our damage.

6% * 0.67 * 0.6 = 2.41% increase to our damage.

-> Going from 4 to 5 pieces: 1.57% increase.

With 27% triple:

10% * 0.5 * 0.6 = 3% increase to our damage.

6% * 0.5 * 0.6 = 1.8% increase to our damage.

-> Going from 4 to 5 pieces: 1.17% increase.

~~Soooo, it's time i change my stance on using af bonus i guess lol. This isn't good at all. 0.58% haste gained by reaching the real haste cap will beat this easily. Although the calculation was made using an assumed proc rate. Also if the set bonus increase is higher by going from 4 to 5 pieces than by going from 3 to 4, it will affect this greatly.~~ Still, using 4/5 af is a decent enough boost on itself. No reason not to go that way at least while we are talking about abyssea and super triple rates.

*Edited, Feb 27th 2011 3:15pm by Laphine *

Late edit to fix af proc rate. Used 3% for 4 pieces and 5% for 5, as it seem to be the currently accepted.

*Edited, Mar 9th 2011 10:42pm by Laphine *

How did you find the 40% of our hits would be 2nd and 3rd from triple? With the same rates (27 triple, 10 double) i found 33%ish(27*2/161.3). But the main issue is why only use 2nd and 3rd hits? The set bonus procs on every hit as far as i know and experienced.

I don't get why ppl still use gh on dd atma combo. An old post here showed RR/AO/Apoc being better. Kinematics' spreadsheets also favors this combo for both dnc/war and nin/war without kannagi. Shouldn't be any different for us, even with our base 10% triple. So in usual situation - talking about normal mobs/easy nms as i don't have the guts to use AO on hard nms if i'm solo tanking - a thf could be rolling with a max 44% triple attack. With 44% triple almost 70% of melee hits comes from triples (44*3/195.28).

One with Twash could also favor rapidus instead of triplus or any other higher delay weapon (as Banalty observed some time ago) so we could increase the ODDD frequency. Not only does the combo has better raw dps, but a 5/5 af makes use of the 1% haste on rapidus too.

It should come out like this in the end:

6% on 67% of melee hits (44% triple) on 60% melee damage: 2.4% increase.

Well, now that i stopped to think about it, we shouldn't use that 2% coming from 10-8 on af5/5 - af4/5. We actually need to use something like what we use to calculate the average number of hits per hand.

Idk what's our af proc rate. I thought it was 5% on 5/5? Let's use 5% for now, and take 4/5 af as 3%.

With 5% proc rate: 95% of our triples will do normal damage. 5% will do triple.

0.95*1 + 0.05*3 = 1.1; 10% increase on overall triple damage.

With 3% proc rate: 97% of our triples will do normal damage. 3% will do triple.

0.97*1 + 0.03*3 = 1.06; 6% increase on overall triple damage.

To get our actual increase in dps we just need to multiply these numbers by those we had before. The % that triple hits compromise to our mult hit average, and % that dot compromises to our overall damage. So taking 44% triple and 60% dot damage we have:

10% * 0.67 * 0.6 = 4.02% increase to our damage.

6% * 0.67 * 0.6 = 2.41% increase to our damage.

-> Going from 4 to 5 pieces: 1.57% increase.

With 27% triple:

10% * 0.5 * 0.6 = 3% increase to our damage.

6% * 0.5 * 0.6 = 1.8% increase to our damage.

-> Going from 4 to 5 pieces: 1.17% increase.

Late edit to fix af proc rate. Used 3% for 4 pieces and 5% for 5, as it seem to be the currently accepted.

Sage

2,270 posts

Quote:

I don't get why ppl still use gh on dd atma combo. An old post here showed RR/AO/Apoc being better. Kinematics' spreadsheets also favors this combo for both dnc/war and nin/war without kannagi.

Just a note, a lot of people avoid AO because of the -hp, and use GH for the non-DD benefits. Most thfs posting around here most likely find themselves low-manning or tanking things for most of their time in abyssea. If you are tanking or lowman, the -hp is a nono. (the low-man/Tankish scenario is also very true for those same Dncs and Nins in abyssea)

Its really just a very well rounded atma.

Counter=win on ichi (i know i have countered my way into plenty of utsus)

Subtle blow

Evasion (~25)

NO -hp

Crit rate dovetails with RR and evisceration to be very significant gains in DD.

One of FEW jobs that gets SOME direct damage from agi (rng and blade Hi nins as well).

It may fall behind in raw DD to something like AO, but it offers solid DD boost and everything a thf could want wrapped up in a nice, well-rounded package without crippling HP (arguably the most important stat for any big game mobs with high power moves).

I love AO when i am nothing but a beat stick in larger groups, but chances are if that is my role, I am gonna be tearing sh*t up on my rather disgusting drg xD

99Thf/99Drg/99Rng/95Pld/Secret Job 92

Bonecraft-100+3 7/29/08

Lu Shangs-5/28/08

Twashtar-90

Ryunohige-75: 1/7/2012

Mandau-75: 3/9/2012

Maat-1/1 Thf Meleed (pansies steal)

Some of mah gearz: http://www.ffxiah.com/player/Lakshmi/Aanalaty#item-sets

Join 'People Against The Heart Snatcher' and help put Thfs on the right

Scholar

6,580 posts

Laphine wrote:

Nice way to math that out Noodles, I'd like to add some critiques if i may.

How did you find the 40% of our hits would be 2nd and 3rd from triple? With the same rates (27 triple, 10 double) i found 33%ish(27*2/161.3). But the main issue is why only use 2nd and 3rd hits? The set bonus procs on every hit as far as i know and experienced.

How did you find the 40% of our hits would be 2nd and 3rd from triple? With the same rates (27 triple, 10 double) i found 33%ish(27*2/161.3). But the main issue is why only use 2nd and 3rd hits? The set bonus procs on every hit as far as i know and experienced.

You mention using AO over GH. To be honest, I've never known which to use. On Drg I go RR/VV/Apoc, but I wouldn't use VV on thf. For thief, you say it's been calulated and that AO is better. Does it only win marginally? Or did it have a significant lead? I wouldn't mind parsing it to be honest, but it'll have to wait till I need merits again.

DRG BRD TH4 RNG RDM75

Dragoon Equipment Guide

ArsDraconis wrote:

Ultima spends 10 whole seconds shouting "I'MA FIRIN MAH LAZER" like a 2004 valkurm melee waiting for SC

Sage

75 posts

It's marginally better not factoring the af set bonus (which is an even more marginal increase on itself). The idea on AO is that thf still makes use of its attack boost on most situations. This gives an edge against GH, as a thf/nin won't cap attack even against dc mobs.

But yeah, i don't always use the combo, but i think it's safe to use it on most of the old abyss nms and against low tier nms on heroes areas. If i'm not solo tanking hard things its usability increases too imo.

If you wanna check some close to realistic numbers and different atma combos, you should check kinematics' spreadsheets. linky

Oh yeah, another thing i like on super triple attack combo is how it boosts Rudra's Storm. For one, Evis can't triple twice. A soloed double triple Rudras can spike as high as a full crit Evis. I never math'd this out, so i'm not 100% sure, but parses i've made had shown this behavior. 5k was my highest number soloing both ws against fear deags in altepa. In this same parse my average Rudras was 2.5k while Evis was 3.5k. A higher average number of hits and pdif certainly decreased their difference.

But yeah, i don't always use the combo, but i think it's safe to use it on most of the old abyss nms and against low tier nms on heroes areas. If i'm not solo tanking hard things its usability increases too imo.

If you wanna check some close to realistic numbers and different atma combos, you should check kinematics' spreadsheets. linky

Oh yeah, another thing i like on super triple attack combo is how it boosts Rudra's Storm. For one, Evis can't triple twice. A soloed double triple Rudras can spike as high as a full crit Evis. I never math'd this out, so i'm not 100% sure, but parses i've made had shown this behavior. 5k was my highest number soloing both ws against fear deags in altepa. In this same parse my average Rudras was 2.5k while Evis was 3.5k. A higher average number of hits and pdif certainly decreased their difference.

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