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Returning Thief Dagger QuestionFollow

#52 Feb 16 2011 at 7:30 PM Rating: Decent
8 posts
I've been reading these posts for a long time, five years in fact, but today I thought I'd chime in on this issue.

I think that when it comes to dagger choices, the number crunchers tend to miss the forest for the trees. In all the years that I've played THF, I have found it very, very rare that I get to use my TP at 100%. With Blau/Sirocco I found that I went over 100% to a greater extent than with Harpe/Blau, for instance. It's not as though I'm holding my TP, but rather, with SA and TA, mob positions, and player positions (and overkill) all factors in when and how we weaponskill, I only get to TP at 100% when all of those things line up. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but I am saying, more often than not, it does not. There's usually one or two more hits that come in before the weaponskill (and with Triple or double, the extra hits can often come after you have that TP). Often, that one or two more hits has completely negated the speed benefit of those lower delay, lower damage daggers, as the frequency of weaponskills ends up about the same as with higher damage, higher delay daggers. I would wager, were someone to parse several average situations, situations where people weren't setting it up to ensure 100% TP weaponskills happened every time, that the Dex and Str Kila +2s would come out on top. I always felt this way about the Blau/Sirocco combo, too, though the wind damage on the Sirocco often balanced out the lower dagger damage. In general the higher damage daggers made up for their lack in speed with higher weaponskills and higher per hit numbers, but the argument for lower delay weapons has always been more weaponskills due to speed. I'm arguing that there is rarely actually any more weaponskills and therefore the higher damage should, in practice, as compared to theory, win out.
#53 Feb 18 2011 at 1:13 AM Rating: Decent
Thief's Knife
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It's ironic that SE added an all Jobs Haste+8% head that nobody wants.
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I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#54 Feb 18 2011 at 9:05 AM Rating: Default
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Jobs no one cares about do!
#55 Feb 18 2011 at 10:47 AM Rating: Excellent
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2,270 posts
Only job ive seen that makes sense to use it i can think of is war and stuff like lolmeleeRdm.

As for slow vs fast daggers, fast daggers also won because they (usually) have higher melee damage over time than the slow ones. Blau/Sirocco actually had higher melee DPS than Harpe/Blau to start with. The extra TP was a bonus. For example, Harpe/Blau at 75 had a base DPS (including lv 75 DW) of 13.1. Blau/Sirocco had base DPS of 13.5 AND it got TP faster AND had wind damage.

SE has generally been tailoring the 'best' thf daggers to also be the fastest ones. I dont think its a mistake that sirocco and rapidus are both thf only and suberb daggers to boot. I dont think its an accident twashtar/mandau are D48/49 with a speedy 176 delay instead of a higher damage, but harpe class delay.

Its not that thfs are necessarily obsessed with speed, but that SE is arbitrating that the highest damage options are also generally the fastest.

There is also the point that the higher damage daggers arent really going to make a significant dent in your WS damage. A D43/Del190 kila+2 vs a D46 angr harpe is going to be inconsequential on WS (in abyssea even more so). At BEST, you land an 8hit (TA on main hand) evis with ALL hits landing crit with capped atk, and capped crit hit damage. That 3 base damage will be: (only effects teh 1st 7 hits, not offhand obviously)

Pdif multiplier: 3*3.15=9.45
9.45*7=66.15 damage.
50% crit damage bonus=99.215 damage.

Under virutally PERFECT conditions of an 8 hit, 8 crit, capped attack evis IN abyssea WITH 50% crit damage boost, AND hitting 3.15 random multiplier that will be 100 damage. That eviseration will also be doing around 4700 with NO SA. With SA thats another ~1850+. SAEV under those conditions would do about 6500+ with a D43 kila/kila combo. 6600 with a Angr harpe/kila combo. That is about a 1.6% increase in damage under MAX POSSIBLE WS damage situation. The 'stronger WS' from higher damage daggers just isnt really all that much. However, Kila/Kila has DPS (33% DW) of 20.27. Angr/Kila=19.93.

In this case, Angr 'can' WS 1.6% harder, but Kila/kila will melee 1.7% harder AND that ignores the (far) superior additional stats that you get on that second kila+2 (and the TP gain). If you add in the huge acc or atk boost from a dex or str kila that will make you hit even harder/more accurately than the harpe widening that gap farther.

The thing is, if you WS on the dot and 'use' that TP, faster daggers win hands down. If you sit on TP, then more of your damage is melee which fast daggers also usually win at. There is a little loophole in logic if you think that a dagger that WS harder does better when you dont WS as much (sit on TP). If you WS less, WS damage shrinks compared to melee DPS. Slow daggers are caught in a catch 22. They TP slower but WS harder. If you TP slower, that means you WS less often so WS damage shrinks compared to melee damage. It negates the bonus of WS harder BECAUSE you are WS less often. If you DO WS on the dot, then it looses out to faster daggers because it TPs slower. Its just a loose/loose.

The only favorable situation for big slow daggers are times that you are only running in to SA/TA/WS and NOT meleeing the mob for TP. (Think Thf/Sam on a no-melee mob, or getting TP with /ra only to run in for SATAWS). Any time you melee constantly, it just doesnt really work out :S

This is not me saying harpe's fail at life or anything, but they just get edged out by the generally faster options. We are talking VERY small differences of a couple % points. Let me reiterate that. The differences are TINY and (for many people) inconsequential. They are still GREAT daggers, but they just arent quite the BEST. If you are trying to push thf to the absolute max, then a harpe just wont cut it. If you are trying to push to the MAX then you also are striving to use every bit of that TP on time as well to take advantage of the speed demons.

Edited, Feb 18th 2011 11:53am by Banalaty
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#56 Mar 02 2011 at 4:03 AM Rating: Good
26 posts
Thanks to everybody for their great responses. This thread has greatly helped me get reacquainted with the Math behind playing Thief and opened my eyes to the new equipment options available. I do apologize for not mentioning the stats of my equipment though; I realize, in hindsight, that this information may have been useful.

Since creating this thread I have thrown myself in to Thief whole-heartedly and I'm happily sporting a Auric / Rapidus combo and whilst I have Shinryu access I'm not trying too hard for the Twilight Knife as I'm currently on my Glavoid trial for the base Twashtar. I'm hoping to be able to solo/duo him with one of my other available jobs; Puppetmaster & Summoner. I'm fairly sure that Auric / Rapidus then Twashtar / Rapidus is the combo of choice for me, in part due to the Math provided here and also due to the logic provided here about the increase in level cap and effort required. Thankfully the Twashtar should continue to improve with new trials and the Rapidus and Auric were fairly easy to obtain.

I'm now happily sporting a Raider's Boomerang, Raider's Bonnet +2, Agasaya's Collar, Suppa/Brutal, Rapparee Harness, Homam Manopolas, Raja's/Ulthalam's, Forager's Mantle, Twilight Belt, Raider's Culotte's +1, and Homam Gambieras. This unfortunately puts me at 28% haste w/ the Rapidus so I am working on Raider's Culotte's +2 (3/6) and Raider's Armlet's +1 so that I can drop the Homam Manopolas in to storage and still be at the 26% Haste cap. Other than that I'm saving my brews that could be used on Shinryu as part of the never ending quest for an Epona's Ring and really looking forward to taking the Scorpion for the Raider's Vest +1 (nice and easy to find a WHM to team up w/ to duo this thanks to the WHM body seal dropping too, thanks SE!). Not to mention our TH6 feet which are as much a curse as a blessing when obtained.

Thanks again everybody, my question was well and truly answered in a very thorough way.
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