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Returning Thief Dagger QuestionFollow

#1 Jan 26 2011 at 2:39 AM Rating: Good
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I'm a long time retired Thief, having been away from the game for almost two years now. When I played previously Blau Dolch and Sirocco Kukri were the best possible dagger combination.

I'm returning now and was wondering if anybody could help me get up to speed with current dagger choices. I'm interested in what the best possible dagger combination as well as what is realistic for replacing my current Blau/Misericorde +1 combination (I was camping the Kukri before quitting). It seems that Auric Dagger, Rapidus Sax, and the Magian STR or DEX daggers are nice, maybe the Twilight Knife too.

Additionally I was wondering what purpose does a Kraken Club, Ridilli or Mercurial Kris serve for a Thief? Are any of these actually worth their salt anymore, and why were they so good before? That's just a question I've always had.

Any help you guys could give would be very much appreciated ^^

Edited, Jan 26th 2011 3:42am by Mangotastic
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#2 Jan 26 2011 at 6:50 AM Rating: Decent
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Look into Triplus dagger, Twilight knife if you've got cruor to spend, Auric should hold you until you get magians done/the better daggers.

Kraken/Ridill/Mkris might help for feeding TP to proc weakness on NMs, that's all I can think of :/ Otherwise unless you need to break a trial weapon I can't think of any use for either of them. None of them were very good for Thf at 75 in my opinion, except on trash mobs and only for getting TP quickly.
#3 Jan 26 2011 at 8:54 PM Rating: Default
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Mangotastic wrote:
Additionally I was wondering what purpose does a Kraken Club, Ridilli or Mercurial Kris serve for a Thief? Are any of these actually worth their salt anymore, and why were they so good before
They were never good.....
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#4 Jan 27 2011 at 1:02 PM Rating: Good
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I had a MKris, and well is a nice toy for campaign or farming but for serious bussines dis dagger does more damage to you than the mob cause the Tp feed, also KC and Ridill, but it's only my opinion. I'm using Auric/Rapidus and you can believe me when say SA need other 10 seconds less on recast cause i have 100tp each 30 seconds and both are not hard at all to get if you find a solid group to farm in abyssea.
Tell me if i'm wrong but the better options you have for main are Daka+2, Twashtar, Angr Harpe, and for sub Twilight, Triplus, Rapidus, Auric (this one is always nice to have if you want a extra subtle blow) and trial ones. Any combination works nice.
#5 Jan 27 2011 at 4:01 PM Rating: Good
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Not defending the multi hit weapons...but most of you are forgetting that AGI now gives subtle blow...meaning that TP feed is less of an issue than it was...especially if you're using high AGI atmas. So if you have a multi hit until you get something better its not completely harmful.
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#6 Jan 28 2011 at 6:23 AM Rating: Decent
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It's less of an issue but of all them weren't exactly good for DoT at 75, and even moreso at 90.
#7 Jan 28 2011 at 8:24 AM Rating: Decent
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Neisan wrote:
It's less of an issue but of all them weren't exactly good for DoT at 75, and even moreso at 90.
Could give a @#%^ about TP feed in merits, mob will have 100TP instantly, wouldn't make a huge difference. Obv you wouldn't use on NMs.

DoT was never as good as a proper dagger combo.
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#8 Jan 28 2011 at 8:59 AM Rating: Excellent
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^ this.

The DPS was bleh at 75. Its trash at lv 90. Also with DW3(+more DW gear) available, we get even MORE tp with normal combos and low delay daggers than we did at 75. We also now have access to lots of +DA/TA gear and atmas (we can easily waltz around in 13% DA gear and 6% TA gear now before rediculous atmas).

These two factors (more DW=faster TP for fast weapons and more multi hit gear/atmas) have actually turned me off to finishing my OAT dagger verthandi trial i have half done. It was SOOO promising at 75/80 but it is a slow dagger and the OAT washes out additional DA/TA sources.

At this point, id be willing to bet

Any lv 90 daggers will out DPS ANY old multi hit (Kclub, Mkris, even ridil). Mkris=D8. EIGHT. If you think that will compete with a D43. FORTY THREE magian dagger you are off your rocker. Magian has lower delay. If Mkris hit 3 times EVERY round it would be the same DPS as a D24/Del 192 dagger. Magian is still almost TWICE that at D42/Del 190 AND have loads of other stats. The other weapons have terrible atk (sword/club) and therefore suck even more.

I would venture to guess that a speedy combo including rapidus and something swift in your mainhand will not only stomp a multi hit in DPS (no contest at all there), but with 30-41% DW available now, fast daggers will out TP them as well normally and burry them with multi hit gear/atmas.

Let them go. They are dead relics. If you MUST get a multihit weapon for heaven knows what, then get a magian dagger 1-2 or if you must, 1-4hit paths. Forget about POS junk like D8 daggers.
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#9 Jan 28 2011 at 9:12 AM Rating: Good
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Thanks for the advice all.

I'm going to go for Versus Knife +1 / Auric Dagger as an easy to get upgrade to my Blau Dolch / Misericorde +1.

As for ultimate goals I'm torn between a few daggers; Triplus Dagger, Auric Dagger, Rapidus Sax and Twilight Knife.

These are such good daggers that I'm having trouble deciding what combo would be best. Even then I'm wondering if the Angr Harpe with DMG 46 and Dly 210 wouldn't rule over all of the above for a main hand though Twilight Knife / Triplus Dagger seems like a very nice combo too.

I wish I knew more about the math behind daggers to help making these decisions easier!
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#10 Jan 28 2011 at 1:40 PM Rating: Excellent
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Dont forget this is all temporary. Dont loose to much sleep about getting the 'best' dagger at all costs right now. We still ahve to get to lv 99 and im sure there will be even more daggers there and the magians will only continue to evolve.

Honestly, any combo of Stat Magian/Twilight/Rapidus/Auric/Triplus will get the job done. Magians you know you will keep up all the way to 99 so I prefer to just work on 1 or mroe of them for the 'long haul'. Otherwise, pick whatever you can get the easiest. Rapidus Sax is 100% drop and the NM drops items for armor people want so it should be 'easy' to get and makes a fantastic offhand and would by the 1st thing id shoot for.

I dont loose much sleep figuring out which of the above daggers are 2% better than the next one because it will all change as soon as we hit 95. (I am also working on twashtar which will simplify the choice once its done :P)
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#11 Jan 29 2011 at 3:20 PM Rating: Good
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Rapidus is prolly your best bet for hoffhand, delay 150, accuracy +12 and haste 1% plus a decent damage base (32). I'm really happy since got mine, with haste and double march your attack speed will make the game don't have time to show you the attack animation, believe me. And for main, the harpe is good, I have one and mixed with Rapidus the 210 delay don't slow you too much but like Banality i'm working on trial dagger for new WS, but i'm going for Daka since Twashtar have a horrible skin >.>
#12 Jan 29 2011 at 5:24 PM Rating: Default
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Think Rapidus loses to Auric (or it did the last I heard), the DW reduction probably wins if delay reduction if it isn't capped, accuracy shouldn't be so low to warrant the +12 unless we're talking a Thf mob.

Both lose to Triplus if I recall correctly.



Edited, Jan 29th 2011 7:26pm by Neisan
#13 Jan 31 2011 at 4:14 AM Rating: Decent
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Neisan wrote:
Think Rapidus loses to Auric (or it did the last I heard), the DW reduction probably wins if delay reduction if it isn't capped, accuracy shouldn't be so low to warrant the +12 unless we're talking a Thf mob.

Both lose to Triplus if I recall correctly.



Triplus looses to flame Kila +2 on DPS.

Edited, Jan 31st 2011 6:31am by Lobivopis
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I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#14 Jan 31 2011 at 8:17 AM Rating: Decent
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Lobivopis wrote:
Neisan wrote:
Think Rapidus loses to Auric (or it did the last I heard), the DW reduction probably wins if delay reduction if it isn't capped, accuracy shouldn't be so low to warrant the +12 unless we're talking a Thf mob.

Both lose to Triplus if I recall correctly.



Triplus looses to flame Kila +2 on DPS.

Edited, Jan 31st 2011 6:31am by Lobivopis
Surely that is completely dependant on your Triple Attack rate (read: which atmas you're using)?
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#15 Feb 01 2011 at 2:23 PM Rating: Good
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Of course Triplus > Rapidus/Auric but Rapidus/Auric > Triplus in terms of how hard is get one. I have both, Rapidus and Auric and use Angr as main, when i have some time will parse both but I think there isn't too much difference.
#16 Feb 01 2011 at 6:47 PM Rating: Decent
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Noodles wrote:
Lobivopis wrote:
Neisan wrote:
Think Rapidus loses to Auric (or it did the last I heard), the DW reduction probably wins if delay reduction if it isn't capped, accuracy shouldn't be so low to warrant the +12 unless we're talking a Thf mob.

Both lose to Triplus if I recall correctly.



Triplus looses to flame Kila +2 on DPS.

Edited, Jan 31st 2011 6:31am by Lobivopis
Surely that is completely dependant on your Triple Attack rate (read: which atmas you're using)?


Triplus is DPS 12.8 and 5% damage increase to second and third hits of triple attack.

flame Kila is DPS 13.5 and +9 STR +28 ATT always.

Rapidus is DPS 12.8 and Haste+1% ACC+12 always.



To get the DPS of a weapon multiply the damage by 60 and then divide by the delay.




Edited, Feb 1st 2011 8:48pm by Lobivopis
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I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#17 Feb 02 2011 at 4:15 PM Rating: Good
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Don't blame me for my next coment, I'm still learning about calculate damage on weapons. According to this Kila is 0.7 more DPS but this count only for regular hits, if we take into the acount the Tp gain and add the ws damage prolly kila isn't the better. Seriously I have no idea is just what it seems.
#18 Feb 02 2011 at 4:47 PM Rating: Good
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Problem with DPS calcs is that its just a comparison between weapons solely depending on base damage and delay

Quote:
Don't blame me for my next coment, I'm still learning about calculate damage on weapons. According to this Kila is 0.7 more DPS but this count only for regular hits, if we take into the acount the Tp gain and add the ws damage prolly kila isn't the better. Seriously I have no idea is just what it seems.


Which is true, but you would also have to account for the boost in attack and fSTR for both regular hits and WSs of the fire kila to make a complete comparison. Not forgetting mob def and vit, agi to calc crit hit rate,mob evasion and your hitrate, and all that other situational stuff. Don't worry, I still struggle with it all too lol...
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#19 Feb 02 2011 at 7:17 PM Rating: Decent
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Kila has much higher DPS from regular hits, Rapidus has much greater TP gain. Triplus is in the middle with only +5% damage on second and third hit of triple attack in it's favor.

Rapidus is very, very, very easy to get btw. DD/anything and WHM can duo it. It's 100% drop, the pop set is ridiculously easy to get and Amhuluk is a pushover. It's so retardedly easy you could even tank it on THF/WAR.



Edited, Feb 2nd 2011 9:22pm by Lobivopis
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Adjust the resolution of menus.
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I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#20 Feb 06 2011 at 6:31 PM Rating: Good
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I got Angr Harpe and Twilight Knife, actually i'm using harpe/twilight but don't like it too much (used to hate harpes always, to much delay) I also have rapidus and auric so which combo u guys recomended to me? I'm thinking on Twilight/Auric but not sure at all.
#21 Feb 07 2011 at 2:56 AM Rating: Decent
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Lobivopis wrote:
Kila has much higher DPS from regular hits, Rapidus has much greater TP gain. Triplus is in the middle with only +5% damage on second and third hit of triple attack in it's favor.
"Only". 25% Triple Attack (5/5 Merits + Atma of Apocalypse) - one third of your melee strikes will be 2nd or 3rd hits from Triple attacks, for about 1.7% increase to TP and WS damage, the exact same as the increase from 1% Haste on Rapidus going from 24% to 25% (ontop of 15% from spell). If you're acc is capped then their DoT will be essentially the same.

Personally I'm looking forward to trying Triplus/Rapidus. It'll be the fastest delay combo using a dagger with DMG rating worth a damn we can have, akin to the Blau/Sirocco of old.

Edited, Feb 7th 2011 8:58am by Noodles
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#22 Feb 07 2011 at 5:41 AM Rating: Decent
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Kalisa wrote:
Not defending the multi hit weapons...but most of you are forgetting that AGI now gives subtle blow...meaning that TP feed is less of an issue than it was...especially if you're using high AGI atmas. So if you have a multi hit until you get something better its not completely harmful.


Although it seems like everything in Abyssea has regain to make up for it.

Quote:
Personally I'm looking forward to trying Triplus/Rapidus. It'll be the fastest delay combo using a dagger with DMG rating worth a damn we can have, akin to the Blau/Sirocco of old.




Edited, Feb 7th 2011 7:45am by Lobivopis
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I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#23 Feb 07 2011 at 5:48 AM Rating: Decent
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Noodles wrote:
Lobivopis wrote:
Kila has much higher DPS from regular hits, Rapidus has much greater TP gain. Triplus is in the middle with only +5% damage on second and third hit of triple attack in it's favor.
"Only". 25% Triple Attack (5/5 Merits + Atma of Apocalypse) - one third of your melee strikes will be 2nd or 3rd hits from Triple attacks, for about 1.7% increase to TP and WS damage, the exact same as the increase from 1% Haste on Rapidus going from 24% to 25% (ontop of 15% from spell). If you're acc is capped then their DoT will be essentially the same.


The TP gain on a Delay 150 weapon is quite a bit higher than on a delay 178 weapon.

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/File:Tpgain.jpg



Edited, Feb 7th 2011 7:56am by Lobivopis
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Final Fantasy XI 12-14-11 Update wrote:
Adjust the resolution of menus.
The main screen resolution for "FINAL FANTASY XI" is dependent on the "Overlay Graphics Resolution" setting.
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I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#24 Feb 07 2011 at 9:21 AM Rating: Default
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Lobivopis wrote:
Noodles wrote:
Lobivopis wrote:
Kila has much higher DPS from regular hits, Rapidus has much greater TP gain. Triplus is in the middle with only +5% damage on second and third hit of triple attack in it's favor.
"Only". 25% Triple Attack (5/5 Merits + Atma of Apocalypse) - one third of your melee strikes will be 2nd or 3rd hits from Triple attacks, for about 1.7% increase to TP and WS damage, the exact same as the increase from 1% Haste on Rapidus going from 24% to 25% (ontop of 15% from spell). If you're acc is capped then their DoT will be essentially the same.


The TP gain on a Delay 150 weapon is quite a bit higher than on a delay 178 weapon.

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/File:Tpgain.jpg



Edited, Feb 7th 2011 7:56am by Lobivopis
If you cook sausages for too long they will burn. That's about as relevant as your reply. I don't see where I mentioned TP gain.
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#25 Feb 07 2011 at 6:50 PM Rating: Decent
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Noodles wrote:
Lobivopis wrote:
Noodles wrote:
Lobivopis wrote:
Kila has much higher DPS from regular hits, Rapidus has much greater TP gain. Triplus is in the middle with only +5% damage on second and third hit of triple attack in it's favor.
"Only". 25% Triple Attack (5/5 Merits + Atma of Apocalypse) - one third of your melee strikes will be 2nd or 3rd hits from Triple attacks, for about 1.7% increase to TP and WS damage, the exact same as the increase from 1% Haste on Rapidus going from 24% to 25% (ontop of 15% from spell). If you're acc is capped then their DoT will be essentially the same.


The TP gain on a Delay 150 weapon is quite a bit higher than on a delay 178 weapon.

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/File:Tpgain.jpg



Edited, Feb 7th 2011 7:56am by Lobivopis
If you cook sausages for too long they will burn. That's about as relevant as your reply. I don't see where I mentioned TP gain.



Not everyone can switch out their mainhand dagger with something else. They have to choose rapidus, triplus or kila offhand because their main hand dagger is fixed.
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I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#26 Feb 07 2011 at 7:33 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:

Not everyone can switch out their mainhand dagger with something else. They have to choose rapidus, triplus or kila offhand because their main hand dagger is fixed.


You make it sounds like a relic is an inconvenience. Personally if I owned Mandau I would go for the tried and true and use Mandau/Rapidus. I know you love your strength kila but rapidus gains tp so fast that more weaponskills is probably better than slightly stronger ones when it already averages 4-5K because of what abyssea is. The str kila +2 isn't a bad choice, but the loss of tp gain may not be worth it. 176 + 150 is blazingly fast, and you can't judge a weapon combo's DoT based solely on the damage/stats because it ignores fSTR (which is often capped inside abyssea). Once you factor fSTR and increased tp gain the Mandau/Kila +2 versus Mandau/Rapidus is not as clear cut as it first appears.

On a somewhat related note I like my Twilight Knife but I can feel the difference in speed from Kila +2/Rapidus versus Kila +2/Twilight, so much that I actually dislike Kila+2/Twilight. I'm going to try out Twilight/Rapidus in the coming week and see what I think about that though. Twilight's base damage is slightly lower than Kila +2 but delay is the same, and it does get 3% quadruple attack. By my own words "weaponskilling more often >>> weaponskilling slightly harder", but it's difficult to weigh kila +2's 3 base D + 9 str/24 ATK against 3% quadruple attack and what does appear to be a 10% activation on tp drain. However since the HP drain is a true DRAIN effect it damages the mob even if the chatlog says I heal 0 hp, making it a DoT boost similar to Sirocco's wind damage (not to meantion it's a constant self cure). I have a feeling I'll pick Twilight/Rapidus after I get a chance to try it out, but only time will tell.

Edited, Feb 7th 2011 8:38pm by Melphina
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#27 Feb 08 2011 at 8:58 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Not everyone can switch out their mainhand dagger with something else. They have to choose rapidus, triplus or kila offhand because their main hand dagger is fixed.


To be fair, most people CAN and thus most commenting on the issue will be as such. I am, however, very much looking forward to joining the ranks of people with that particular locked main hand 'problem' soon ^_^ 13 shells to go!

As a side note, i REALLY hate glavoid. Mobs shouldnt be able to do this. ITS OVER 90......baawwww ; ;

Edited, Feb 8th 2011 10:07am by Banalaty
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#28 Feb 08 2011 at 5:42 PM Rating: Good
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Let me know if i'm right with this maths.


176 delay weapon (Twashtar, triplus)/Auric

176+201*0.9 = 339.3

339.3-5% = 322.33

322.33/60 = 5.37



176 delay weapon (Twashtar, triplus)/Rapidus

176+150/2 = 293.4

293.4/60 = 4.89


There I should apply haste/dual wield/buffs reduction but i think is enough with this to make an idea of which one is faster, as long as my maths are right ofc.
#29 Feb 08 2011 at 6:23 PM Rating: Good
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Vodak wrote:
Let me know if i'm right with this maths.


176 delay weapon (Twashtar, triplus)/Auric

176+201*0.9 = 339.3

339.3-5% = 322.33

322.33/60 = 5.37



176 delay weapon (Twashtar, triplus)/Rapidus

176+150/2 = 293.4

293.4/60 = 4.89


There I should apply haste/dual wield/buffs reduction but i think is enough with this to make an idea of which one is faster, as long as my maths are right ofc.


I would at least factor in the Dual wield of Auric and Haste of Rapidus.

EDIT: AKA 4.841 for 176/Rapidus, 5.116 for 176/Auric

Edited, Feb 8th 2011 7:31pm by ElvaanTHF
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#30 Feb 08 2011 at 8:20 PM Rating: Decent
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ElvaanTHF wrote:
Vodak wrote:
Let me know if i'm right with this maths.


176 delay weapon (Twashtar, triplus)/Auric

176+201*0.9 = 339.3

339.3-5% = 322.33

322.33/60 = 5.37



176 delay weapon (Twashtar, triplus)/Rapidus

176+150/2 = 293.4

293.4/60 = 4.89


There I should apply haste/dual wield/buffs reduction but i think is enough with this to make an idea of which one is faster, as long as my maths are right ofc.


I would at least factor in the Dual wield of Auric and Haste of Rapidus.

EDIT: AKA 4.841 for 176/Rapidus, 5.116 for 176/Auric

Edited, Feb 8th 2011 7:31pm by ElvaanTHF


If you have +2 head/body/legs Homam feet and twilight/bullwhip then the +1 haste from Rapidus won't do jack.



Edited, Feb 8th 2011 10:21pm by Lobivopis
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I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#31 Feb 08 2011 at 9:29 PM Rating: Good
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Lobivopis wrote:
ElvaanTHF wrote:
Vodak wrote:
Let me know if i'm right with this maths.


176 delay weapon (Twashtar, triplus)/Auric

176+201*0.9 = 339.3

339.3-5% = 322.33

322.33/60 = 5.37



176 delay weapon (Twashtar, triplus)/Rapidus

176+150/2 = 293.4

293.4/60 = 4.89


There I should apply haste/dual wield/buffs reduction but i think is enough with this to make an idea of which one is faster, as long as my maths are right ofc.


I would at least factor in the Dual wield of Auric and Haste of Rapidus.

EDIT: AKA 4.841 for 176/Rapidus, 5.116 for 176/Auric

Edited, Feb 8th 2011 7:31pm by ElvaanTHF


If you have +2 head/body/legs Homam feet and twilight/bullwhip then the +1 haste from Rapidus won't do jack.



Edited, Feb 8th 2011 10:21pm by Lobivopis


1.) He didn't specify his gear, so we can assume as a "returning player" he hasn't gotten AF3+2.

2.) As a basis for his comparison, the dude said nude with only two shanks equipped, so yeah...


You're not going to list gear/buffs that would make Auric's DW worthless? Son, I am disappoint.
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#32 Feb 09 2011 at 10:19 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Let me know if i'm right with this maths.

176 delay weapon (Twashtar, triplus)/Auric
176+201*0.9 = 339.3
339.3-5% = 322.33
322.33/60 = 5.37

176 delay weapon (Twashtar, triplus)/Rapidus
176+150/2 = 293.4
293.4/60 = 4.89


I might be missing something, but I am confused as to what the *0.9 is and what the -5% is in the auric section and what the 150/2 is representing. Im guessing the -5% is the DW on auric, and the *.9 is DW1. If thats the case there are 2 problems. You have to do all DW simultaneously or the numbers dont come out quite right. Also, thf has native DW2 now so it is actually 15% base DW.

Ill go ahead and use DW3 since 95% of teh time we are /nin anyway. Also most players that main thf are working with a suppa. So 25%+5%+5%=35% DW with auric+suppa

So:
176+201 delay daggerss
Base:176+201=377
DW35%: 377*0.65=245
Sec/round: 245/60=4.08

176+150 del daggers (only 30% DW since no auric)
Base:176+150=326
DW30%: 377*0.7=228
Sec/round: 245/60=3.8

4.08/3.08=7.3%

After DW, rapidus is 7.3% faster in actual swing speed than auric when paired with a 176 delay weapon. Now im rather curious as I will soon be mainhanding a 176 so ill look at BASIC DPS and TP gain. (more for my own curiosity at this point) I will be using the 85 twashtar and my Raiders boomerang so results may vary.

DW38% Twash/Auric
Del/round=233=3.89sec
Del/hand=117=1.94sec
TP/Hit=4.4
Damage=45+39=84
DPS=21.56
TP/Sec=2.26

DW33% Twash/Rapidus
Del/round=218=3.64sec
Del/hand=109=1.82sec
TP/Hit=4.4
Damage=45+32=77
DPS=21.15
TP/Sec=2.42


Twash/Auric is 7% slower than rapidus. Twash/Rapidus gets 7% more TP than auric. Auric has <2% more DPS over time than rapidus. Basically they are VERY close across the board. Also, I messed with 'simulating' the 2xdamage effect (assumed 50% rate. Dont know if that is realistic or not) of double damage aftermath by just pumping up the damage rating of twash by 50%. With that additional damage skew to main hand, the DPS difference drops to less than 1/100th of a %. (functionally identical). The better Twash gets, the more it helps rapidus. I imagine the lv 90 twash/rapidus would edge out Twash/auric. Your DPS when dual wielding will always skew towards the slower dagger in the pair. This is why you would (ideally) want your highest DPS dagger to ALSO be your slower dagger in the combo so that more of your DPS is coming from that dagger once you toss in delay. If there was a dagger with the same base DPS as rapidus with 999 delay, your DPS would crash if you paired it with twashtar even though both weapons by themselves have teh same dps as Twash/Rapidus.

This also ignores any and all haste(and the 1% from rapidus). This also ignores the 12 acc on rapidus and doesnt measure WS damage at all. Considering rapidus is only 2% lower DPS but 7% higher TP over time WITHOUT the haste, if you are at 50% haste before rapidus, you will get 2% more attack speed nullifying the DPS difference and widening teh TP gap even more. If you can use just 4 of the 12 acc before capping, it will also increase DPS and TP gain by at more than 2%.

For raw damage, I am leaning slightly with rapidus for now once I finish my twash 85. Of course the Subtle blow is always nice and a rather intangible bonus to keep in mind as well.

So many good daggers now!
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#33 Feb 09 2011 at 2:09 PM Rating: Good
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Vodak wrote:
Let me know if i'm right with this maths.


176 delay weapon (Twashtar, triplus)/Auric

176+201*0.9 = 339.3

339.3-5% = 322.33

322.33/60 = 5.37



176 delay weapon (Twashtar, triplus)/Rapidus

176+150*0.9 = 293.4

293.4/60 = 4.89


There I should apply haste/dual wield/buffs reduction but i think is enough with this to make an idea of which one is faster, as long as my maths are right ofc.


As I said there isen't any haste/dual wield buffs apply, it's for a THF w/o sub, the -5% is from Auric dual wield and the /2 in the second acount is a typo casue I started using a wrong system to calculate it but the finish delay is right, it should be like i quote now. Sorry I forgot coment that Haste from rapidus would be the 27% since I have 26% from equip. And to finish I'm not a returning player cause i never leave lol this isn't may thread i'm just take advantage of it to avoid spam in a new thread with the same question ^^

But thanks for the help, the purpose was learn how to calculate it right and now is clear and can do my own maths w/o bother anyone asking, just one last think, where i have to apply the haste from equip/spells? I guess it's apply on the final delay.

Edited, Feb 9th 2011 4:03pm by Vodak
#34 Feb 09 2011 at 3:19 PM Rating: Decent
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Banalaty wrote:
Also, thf has native DW2 now so it is actually 15% base DW.


I thought we didn't? Maybe I'm wrong but I swear I read someone say we didn't get another tier at 90.
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#35 Feb 09 2011 at 7:09 PM Rating: Good
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I thought we didn't? Maybe I'm wrong but I swear I read someone say we didn't get another tier at 90.


We did get native dual wield II at 90.

Edited, Feb 10th 2011 12:31am by Melphina
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#36 Feb 10 2011 at 7:57 AM Rating: Default
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Banalaty wrote:
Also, thf has native DW2 now so it is actually 15% base DW.
Wait wut. Are you 100% serious?
Why is this the first I've heard about this? I would have thought this would have been advertised hugely after all the bitching we did about getting only DW1 at 83. No one even bothered to update wiki?

Edited, Feb 10th 2011 1:58pm by Noodles
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#37 Feb 10 2011 at 8:20 AM Rating: Good
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We discovered thf got dual wield II shortly after the version update occurred. I posted This thread practically the day of the update, which was when we did a bunch of treasure hunter and other testing. Laphine wrote in that thread

Quote:
Second: A DW test~ WE HAVE DW2 NOWZ!^^
Kila+1 and Warp Cudgel expected tp return with DW1 is 5.5. I got 52 tp after one shotting 10 low level mobs. An extra 5% delay reduction would place it right there with an expected tp return of 5.2 per hit.
I had no stp or other dw gear while testing it.


Testing dual wield is simple enough. You just go out and one shot 10 low level mobs and check your tp return. In this case kila +2/warp cudgel == (190 + 264) == 454 delay. If we had dual wield 1 then tp per hit would look like this

(454 x 0.9)/2 == 204 per hand
5.0 + [(204 - 180) * 6.5 / 270]
== 5.5xx truncated to 5.5

If we had dual wield II then you would have the following

(454 x 0.85)/2 == 192 per hand
5.0 + [(192 - 180) * 6.5 / 270]
== 5.2xx truncated to 5.2

If we had dual wield I then after one shotting 10 mobs kila +1/warp cudgel would result in 55 tp and if we had dual wield II then kila+1/warp cudgel would result in 52 tp. I have confirmed this test personally, and there is no question that by level 90 thief has dual wield II.

This is why I've taken a liking to thf/war. With native dual wield II under our belt the difference in attack speed between /nin and /war is virtually identical (/war's double attack doesn't compensate perfectly, but comes damn close). Begressor however is freakin HUGE, and since my mages have near limitless MP anyway I've brought out /war a lot more. I still have my evasion swap and defender never hurts, but the damage thf/war puts out is much better than what thf/nin does because of our trait increase.
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#38 Feb 10 2011 at 10:41 AM Rating: Default
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Just so surprised for something as big as this I hadn't seen it posted anywhere else, like in a dedicated thread saying "WE GOT DW2!!" or even an update on the thief or dual wield wiki pages.

I think next time I join an exp alliance I'ma 2box my C5/Haste bitch mule and go Thf/War.
By the way, has anyone compared Thf/War vs Thf/Sam? Does the WS frequency increase (ontop of Meditate and Sekka (Sekka is even more useful now what with holding TP at the ends of fights to avoid ruby lights, and also TP overflow from so much triple attack. shame about the long recast though) offset the boost from berserk? My guess is outside abyssea: no, as no one cares about ruby, and we don't have atmas pushing us closer to attack cap, but inside I am curious,
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#39 Feb 11 2011 at 8:56 AM Rating: Default
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People still hold TP instead of WSing a mob standing next to the one your are engaged with? I guess when avoiding a WS kill on a NM but normal mobs? just pull more than 1, WS the fresh one.

Edited, Feb 11th 2011 8:56am by LordTrey
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#40 Feb 11 2011 at 8:59 AM Rating: Decent
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Keep in mind that the big DW jump is to DW3 where you get another 10%. I wouldn't throw away /NIN just yet, but if we do in fact get DW3 in one of the next couple of updates it would relegate /NIN to sub for shadows, cheaper sneak/invis, a little subtle blow and a small chance at triggering +1/+2 (depends on day but 15% or so).
#41 Feb 11 2011 at 9:01 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
and a small chance at triggering +1/+2 (depends on day but 15% or so).


What does this mean?
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#42 Feb 11 2011 at 9:36 AM Rating: Default
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triggering grellow.

Also, yes if theres another mob nearby obviously you switch target at low HP and let the crappy melee stab it to death, but half the time there wont be another mob ready. It's very rare you'll be able to WS a different target whilst keeping engaged properly in an exp alliance unless you're in a linkshell one where the pullers are very good.
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#43 Feb 11 2011 at 10:14 AM Rating: Decent
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What does +1 and +2 have with yellow proc?

Depending on camp, and for some reason actually out in a exp alliance, you can just acid bolt a mob when you hit 60-70% tp and pull you over another. Should be at least 2-3 slept at camp I would hope, and often many up within 25' or so.

With all the exp there is to get doing nms, farming time and gold boxes at the same time, I don't join any exp alliances. way too much free exp imo. In smaller groups (or even full alliance split up on different tasks) its pretty easy to tag the next mob you want to kill with a bolt when the current one is low hp if you fight up in the middle of things.

If I were in an exp alliance, I would expect mobs to be at camp to WS (or swap target if your arent just soloing a mob or at most duoing it, even in an exp alliance) at all times.
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#44 Feb 11 2011 at 10:38 AM Rating: Decent
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Triggering grellow increases drop rate of the items necessary for +1/+2 AF3.

The real reason to join xp alliances is for cruor to brew shin, your eponas, etc. Once you have that gear and enough "walking around cruor," I don't see a reason to join.
#45 Feb 11 2011 at 8:18 PM Rating: Decent
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Ah, I had never heard it referenced like that. I have heard proc seals/stones but not +1 +2.
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#46 Feb 12 2011 at 3:44 AM Rating: Default
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LordTrey wrote:
If I were in an exp alliance, I would expect mobs to be at camp to WS (or swap target if your arent just soloing a mob or at most duoing it, even in an exp alliance) at all times.
Then your expectations of a pickup alliance are far too high.
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#47 Feb 12 2011 at 11:35 AM Rating: Good
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Banalty wrote:
Twash/Auric is 7% slower than rapidus. Twash/Rapidus gets 7% more TP than auric. Auric has <2% more DPS over time than rapidus. Basically they are VERY close across the board. Also, I messed with 'simulating' the 2xdamage effect (assumed 50% rate. Dont know if that is realistic or not) of double damage aftermath by just pumping up the damage rating of twash by 50%. With that additional damage skew to main hand, the DPS difference drops to less than 1/100th of a %. (functionally identical). The better Twash gets, the more it helps rapidus. I imagine the lv 90 twash/rapidus would edge out Twash/auric. Your DPS when dual wielding will always skew towards the slower dagger in the pair. This is why you would (ideally) want your highest DPS dagger to ALSO be your slower dagger in the combo so that more of your DPS is coming from that dagger once you toss in delay. If there was a dagger with the same base DPS as rapidus with 999 delay, your DPS would crash if you paired it with twashtar even though both weapons by themselves have teh same dps as Twash/Rapidus.

This also ignores any and all haste(and the 1% from rapidus). This also ignores the 12 acc on rapidus and doesnt measure WS damage at all. Considering rapidus is only 2% lower DPS but 7% higher TP over time WITHOUT the haste, if you are at 50% haste before rapidus, you will get 2% more attack speed nullifying the DPS difference and widening teh TP gap even more. If you can use just 4 of the 12 acc before capping, it will also increase DPS and TP gain by at more than 2%.

For raw damage, I am leaning slightly with rapidus for now once I finish my twash 85. Of course the Subtle blow is always nice and a rather intangible bonus to keep in mind as well.


I've been using triplus with my Twash and this makes me totally wanna change back to rapidus lol.

Currently i wear full af + tiercel neck for 24% haste, so rapidus 1% haste is really welcome. The 12 acc is certainly put to use on harder nms too. And finally, i also use RR+AO+AoA combo to maximize our af bonus procs.

Without accounting the extra triple rate, Twash+Rapidus has better raw dps than Twash+Triplus (21.15 vs 21.11). And i'll go from a 50%/50% contribution to dps (both weapons 176 delay) to a 54%/46% in Twash's favor (seemed about right make this a 176/326?). A nice little boost to ODD, which can potentially beat the triple loss. Really makes me wonder.

#48 Feb 13 2011 at 3:47 AM Rating: Default
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Laphine wrote:
Currently i wear full af + tiercel neck for 24% haste, so rapidus 1% haste is really welcome.
Not sure if I'd agree 5/5 AF+2 is the best way to go for thief ideal TP set.

Then again, I've been hearing some arguments for capped haste and loki's body over 4/5 AF+2. I'm still not sure which to believe but the maths the people behind the comments run over at BG is almost always correct.
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#49 Feb 13 2011 at 8:35 AM Rating: Good
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i'm not so sure either. I never went out of my way to math it out, altho i did have a small discussion with some guys at ffxiah. Well, one thing i'm sure: it sure is fun. And different than everybody else we can really cheat with 44% chance of triple. But the point in 5/5 af is that going from 4/5 to 5/5 is a bigger boost on proc rate than going from, say, 3/5 to 4/5.

I don't see how loki would be better tho. Using loki implies using a haste hand. If we go that way, then it comes down to 5% crit (that is already high due RR) vs 3% dw that mirke can offer. Yeah i would certainly fall back to mirke if i were to stop using af.

Edited, Feb 13th 2011 9:43am by Laphine
#50 Feb 15 2011 at 3:09 AM Rating: Decent
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It's also for the STP aswell, dont neglect it (it was the reason people used skadi legs over homam)
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#51 Feb 16 2011 at 10:20 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
It's also for the STP aswell, dont neglect it (it was the reason people used skadi legs over homam)

This was also a much closer comparison. lost 1% haste but gained not only 7stp, but also 1acc, 5atk as well. That is a much more lopsided trade than we get for the same 7stp in this scenario. (see below)
_______________________________________________________________________________

I just dont see it working out. Any set that requires the body to not be AF+2 requires you to drop TONS of acc/atk and such to maintain the haste.

AF body/head/hands/legs+Homam=26% haste, 48 acc, 25 atk, 8str (2fstr), 25 dex(Ddex), and 4/5 set bonus for TA damage

Mirke+homam hand+ballering+AF head/legs=25% haste, 39 acc, -2.5atk, 5str(~1fstr), 12 dex (ddex) and only 2/5 set bonus and 3% DW.

Loki+homam hand+ballering+AF head/legs=25% haste, 32 acc, -5atk, 0str, 18dex (Ddex), 5% crit damage and 7stp. Only 2/5 set bonus.

Would you trade 16 acc, 7dex, 30 atk, 8str and sacrifice 4/5 af bonus down to 2/5 all for 5% crit damage and 7stp? That is a hard sell to me. If acc is uncapped hell no. Absolutely not. Even if it is, that is a TON of atk. THIRTY atk. Not to mention 2 fstr and 7Ddex to loose.

Similarly, would you trade 9acc, 13dex, 27.5atk, 3str, and 4/5 down to 2/5 set bonus all for 3% DW? Again if acc is uncapped, hell no. Thats 4/5% hit rate and still a BUNCHA atk/dex/str etc.

*note: Non-AF sets also REQUIRE the use of Rapidus at ALL times to cap haste, or require dusk+1 gloves. Both of which are inconvenience or impractical at best and a detriment at worst.

I really dont see how 7stp and crit damage can beat 8% hit rate alone for TP/damage. Then there is some 30 atk and 3fstr and lolDdex (which we will REALLY care about outside of abyssea if 95/99 goes that route). If we stay inside, crit damage is pretty weak considering we are running with at least +38% crit damage minimum in abyssea making that 5% shrink.

I realize on a great many 'normal' mobs acc is capped. But I do not focus on them. I focus on the HNM class mobs I am often fighting now for 2 reasons.

1: We cant go all out due to ruby light crap anyway making things like STP irrelivant (holding TP far more often).
2: I dont fight those mobs anymore. Most people getting to lv 90 in exp groups DONT have this gear. Those that do have been at capped merits for MONTHS. I know i am not the only one that has no need of burn parties anymore on thf.

Therefore, I dont see a place for an 'easy mob' set of gear in abyssea because it is rare to fight those mobs where acc doesnt matter, and when we do, things like STP are VERY irrelivant due to holding TP. Outside abyssea, the str/dex/atk/Set bonus matter far more than crit damage because we crit so rarely.

I just dont really see a place for a non-AF based set right now because all of its pros fall into a different catch 22 both in and outside abyssea. Maybe I am missing something, but I just dont see the value in it.

Edited, Feb 16th 2011 11:22am by Banalaty

Edited, Feb 16th 2011 11:25am by Banalaty
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