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Returning Thief Dagger QuestionFollow

#1 Jan 26 2011 at 2:39 AM Rating: Good
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I'm a long time retired Thief, having been away from the game for almost two years now. When I played previously Blau Dolch and Sirocco Kukri were the best possible dagger combination.

I'm returning now and was wondering if anybody could help me get up to speed with current dagger choices. I'm interested in what the best possible dagger combination as well as what is realistic for replacing my current Blau/Misericorde +1 combination (I was camping the Kukri before quitting). It seems that Auric Dagger, Rapidus Sax, and the Magian STR or DEX daggers are nice, maybe the Twilight Knife too.

Additionally I was wondering what purpose does a Kraken Club, Ridilli or Mercurial Kris serve for a Thief? Are any of these actually worth their salt anymore, and why were they so good before? That's just a question I've always had.

Any help you guys could give would be very much appreciated ^^

Edited, Jan 26th 2011 3:42am by Mangotastic
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#2 Jan 26 2011 at 6:50 AM Rating: Decent
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Look into Triplus dagger, Twilight knife if you've got cruor to spend, Auric should hold you until you get magians done/the better daggers.

Kraken/Ridill/Mkris might help for feeding TP to proc weakness on NMs, that's all I can think of :/ Otherwise unless you need to break a trial weapon I can't think of any use for either of them. None of them were very good for Thf at 75 in my opinion, except on trash mobs and only for getting TP quickly.
#3 Jan 26 2011 at 8:54 PM Rating: Default
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Mangotastic wrote:
Additionally I was wondering what purpose does a Kraken Club, Ridilli or Mercurial Kris serve for a Thief? Are any of these actually worth their salt anymore, and why were they so good before
They were never good.....
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#4 Jan 27 2011 at 1:02 PM Rating: Good
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I had a MKris, and well is a nice toy for campaign or farming but for serious bussines dis dagger does more damage to you than the mob cause the Tp feed, also KC and Ridill, but it's only my opinion. I'm using Auric/Rapidus and you can believe me when say SA need other 10 seconds less on recast cause i have 100tp each 30 seconds and both are not hard at all to get if you find a solid group to farm in abyssea.
Tell me if i'm wrong but the better options you have for main are Daka+2, Twashtar, Angr Harpe, and for sub Twilight, Triplus, Rapidus, Auric (this one is always nice to have if you want a extra subtle blow) and trial ones. Any combination works nice.
#5 Jan 27 2011 at 4:01 PM Rating: Good
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Not defending the multi hit weapons...but most of you are forgetting that AGI now gives subtle blow...meaning that TP feed is less of an issue than it was...especially if you're using high AGI atmas. So if you have a multi hit until you get something better its not completely harmful.
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#6 Jan 28 2011 at 6:23 AM Rating: Decent
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It's less of an issue but of all them weren't exactly good for DoT at 75, and even moreso at 90.
#7 Jan 28 2011 at 8:24 AM Rating: Decent
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Neisan wrote:
It's less of an issue but of all them weren't exactly good for DoT at 75, and even moreso at 90.
Could give a **** about TP feed in merits, mob will have 100TP instantly, wouldn't make a huge difference. Obv you wouldn't use on NMs.

DoT was never as good as a proper dagger combo.
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Ultima spends 10 whole seconds shouting "I'MA FIRIN MAH LAZER" like a 2004 valkurm melee waiting for SC
#8 Jan 28 2011 at 8:59 AM Rating: Excellent
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^ this.

The DPS was bleh at 75. Its trash at lv 90. Also with DW3(+more DW gear) available, we get even MORE tp with normal combos and low delay daggers than we did at 75. We also now have access to lots of +DA/TA gear and atmas (we can easily waltz around in 13% DA gear and 6% TA gear now before rediculous atmas).

These two factors (more DW=faster TP for fast weapons and more multi hit gear/atmas) have actually turned me off to finishing my OAT dagger verthandi trial i have half done. It was SOOO promising at 75/80 but it is a slow dagger and the OAT washes out additional DA/TA sources.

At this point, id be willing to bet

Any lv 90 daggers will out DPS ANY old multi hit (Kclub, Mkris, even ridil). Mkris=D8. EIGHT. If you think that will compete with a D43. FORTY THREE magian dagger you are off your rocker. Magian has lower delay. If Mkris hit 3 times EVERY round it would be the same DPS as a D24/Del 192 dagger. Magian is still almost TWICE that at D42/Del 190 AND have loads of other stats. The other weapons have terrible atk (sword/club) and therefore suck even more.

I would venture to guess that a speedy combo including rapidus and something swift in your mainhand will not only stomp a multi hit in DPS (no contest at all there), but with 30-41% DW available now, fast daggers will out TP them as well normally and burry them with multi hit gear/atmas.

Let them go. They are dead relics. If you MUST get a multihit weapon for heaven knows what, then get a magian dagger 1-2 or if you must, 1-4hit paths. Forget about POS junk like D8 daggers.
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#9 Jan 28 2011 at 9:12 AM Rating: Good
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Thanks for the advice all.

I'm going to go for Versus Knife +1 / Auric Dagger as an easy to get upgrade to my Blau Dolch / Misericorde +1.

As for ultimate goals I'm torn between a few daggers; Triplus Dagger, Auric Dagger, Rapidus Sax and Twilight Knife.

These are such good daggers that I'm having trouble deciding what combo would be best. Even then I'm wondering if the Angr Harpe with DMG 46 and Dly 210 wouldn't rule over all of the above for a main hand though Twilight Knife / Triplus Dagger seems like a very nice combo too.

I wish I knew more about the math behind daggers to help making these decisions easier!
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#10 Jan 28 2011 at 1:40 PM Rating: Excellent
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Dont forget this is all temporary. Dont loose to much sleep about getting the 'best' dagger at all costs right now. We still ahve to get to lv 99 and im sure there will be even more daggers there and the magians will only continue to evolve.

Honestly, any combo of Stat Magian/Twilight/Rapidus/Auric/Triplus will get the job done. Magians you know you will keep up all the way to 99 so I prefer to just work on 1 or mroe of them for the 'long haul'. Otherwise, pick whatever you can get the easiest. Rapidus Sax is 100% drop and the NM drops items for armor people want so it should be 'easy' to get and makes a fantastic offhand and would by the 1st thing id shoot for.

I dont loose much sleep figuring out which of the above daggers are 2% better than the next one because it will all change as soon as we hit 95. (I am also working on twashtar which will simplify the choice once its done :P)
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Ryunohige-75: 1/7/2012
Mandau-75: 3/9/2012

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Some of mah gearz: http://www.ffxiah.com/player/Lakshmi/Aanalaty#item-sets
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#11 Jan 29 2011 at 3:20 PM Rating: Good
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Rapidus is prolly your best bet for hoffhand, delay 150, accuracy +12 and haste 1% plus a decent damage base (32). I'm really happy since got mine, with haste and double march your attack speed will make the game don't have time to show you the attack animation, believe me. And for main, the harpe is good, I have one and mixed with Rapidus the 210 delay don't slow you too much but like Banality i'm working on trial dagger for new WS, but i'm going for Daka since Twashtar have a horrible skin >.>
#12 Jan 29 2011 at 5:24 PM Rating: Default
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Think Rapidus loses to Auric (or it did the last I heard), the DW reduction probably wins if delay reduction if it isn't capped, accuracy shouldn't be so low to warrant the +12 unless we're talking a Thf mob.

Both lose to Triplus if I recall correctly.



Edited, Jan 29th 2011 7:26pm by Neisan
#13 Jan 31 2011 at 4:14 AM Rating: Decent
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Neisan wrote:
Think Rapidus loses to Auric (or it did the last I heard), the DW reduction probably wins if delay reduction if it isn't capped, accuracy shouldn't be so low to warrant the +12 unless we're talking a Thf mob.

Both lose to Triplus if I recall correctly.



Triplus looses to flame Kila +2 on DPS.

Edited, Jan 31st 2011 6:31am by Lobivopis
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I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#14 Jan 31 2011 at 8:17 AM Rating: Decent
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Lobivopis wrote:
Neisan wrote:
Think Rapidus loses to Auric (or it did the last I heard), the DW reduction probably wins if delay reduction if it isn't capped, accuracy shouldn't be so low to warrant the +12 unless we're talking a Thf mob.

Both lose to Triplus if I recall correctly.



Triplus looses to flame Kila +2 on DPS.

Edited, Jan 31st 2011 6:31am by Lobivopis
Surely that is completely dependant on your Triple Attack rate (read: which atmas you're using)?
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#15 Feb 01 2011 at 2:23 PM Rating: Good
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Of course Triplus > Rapidus/Auric but Rapidus/Auric > Triplus in terms of how hard is get one. I have both, Rapidus and Auric and use Angr as main, when i have some time will parse both but I think there isn't too much difference.
#16 Feb 01 2011 at 6:47 PM Rating: Decent
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Noodles wrote:
Lobivopis wrote:
Neisan wrote:
Think Rapidus loses to Auric (or it did the last I heard), the DW reduction probably wins if delay reduction if it isn't capped, accuracy shouldn't be so low to warrant the +12 unless we're talking a Thf mob.

Both lose to Triplus if I recall correctly.



Triplus looses to flame Kila +2 on DPS.

Edited, Jan 31st 2011 6:31am by Lobivopis
Surely that is completely dependant on your Triple Attack rate (read: which atmas you're using)?


Triplus is DPS 12.8 and 5% damage increase to second and third hits of triple attack.

flame Kila is DPS 13.5 and +9 STR +28 ATT always.

Rapidus is DPS 12.8 and Haste+1% ACC+12 always.



To get the DPS of a weapon multiply the damage by 60 and then divide by the delay.




Edited, Feb 1st 2011 8:48pm by Lobivopis
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The main screen resolution for "FINAL FANTASY XI" is dependent on the "Overlay Graphics Resolution" setting.
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I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#17 Feb 02 2011 at 4:15 PM Rating: Good
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Don't blame me for my next coment, I'm still learning about calculate damage on weapons. According to this Kila is 0.7 more DPS but this count only for regular hits, if we take into the acount the Tp gain and add the ws damage prolly kila isn't the better. Seriously I have no idea is just what it seems.
#18 Feb 02 2011 at 4:47 PM Rating: Good
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Problem with DPS calcs is that its just a comparison between weapons solely depending on base damage and delay

Quote:
Don't blame me for my next coment, I'm still learning about calculate damage on weapons. According to this Kila is 0.7 more DPS but this count only for regular hits, if we take into the acount the Tp gain and add the ws damage prolly kila isn't the better. Seriously I have no idea is just what it seems.


Which is true, but you would also have to account for the boost in attack and fSTR for both regular hits and WSs of the fire kila to make a complete comparison. Not forgetting mob def and vit, agi to calc crit hit rate,mob evasion and your hitrate, and all that other situational stuff. Don't worry, I still struggle with it all too lol...
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#19 Feb 02 2011 at 7:17 PM Rating: Decent
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Kila has much higher DPS from regular hits, Rapidus has much greater TP gain. Triplus is in the middle with only +5% damage on second and third hit of triple attack in it's favor.

Rapidus is very, very, very easy to get btw. DD/anything and WHM can duo it. It's 100% drop, the pop set is ridiculously easy to get and Amhuluk is a pushover. It's so retardedly easy you could even tank it on THF/WAR.



Edited, Feb 2nd 2011 9:22pm by Lobivopis
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Final Fantasy XI 12-14-11 Update wrote:
Adjust the resolution of menus.
The main screen resolution for "FINAL FANTASY XI" is dependent on the "Overlay Graphics Resolution" setting.
If the Overlay Graphics Resolution is set higher than the Menu Resolution, menus will be automatically resized.


I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#20 Feb 06 2011 at 6:31 PM Rating: Good
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I got Angr Harpe and Twilight Knife, actually i'm using harpe/twilight but don't like it too much (used to hate harpes always, to much delay) I also have rapidus and auric so which combo u guys recomended to me? I'm thinking on Twilight/Auric but not sure at all.
#21 Feb 07 2011 at 2:56 AM Rating: Decent
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Lobivopis wrote:
Kila has much higher DPS from regular hits, Rapidus has much greater TP gain. Triplus is in the middle with only +5% damage on second and third hit of triple attack in it's favor.
"Only". 25% Triple Attack (5/5 Merits + Atma of Apocalypse) - one third of your melee strikes will be 2nd or 3rd hits from Triple attacks, for about 1.7% increase to TP and WS damage, the exact same as the increase from 1% Haste on Rapidus going from 24% to 25% (ontop of 15% from spell). If you're acc is capped then their DoT will be essentially the same.

Personally I'm looking forward to trying Triplus/Rapidus. It'll be the fastest delay combo using a dagger with DMG rating worth a **** we can have, akin to the Blau/Sirocco of old.

Edited, Feb 7th 2011 8:58am by Noodles
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#22 Feb 07 2011 at 5:41 AM Rating: Decent
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Kalisa wrote:
Not defending the multi hit weapons...but most of you are forgetting that AGI now gives subtle blow...meaning that TP feed is less of an issue than it was...especially if you're using high AGI atmas. So if you have a multi hit until you get something better its not completely harmful.


Although it seems like everything in Abyssea has regain to make up for it.

Quote:
Personally I'm looking forward to trying Triplus/Rapidus. It'll be the fastest delay combo using a dagger with DMG rating worth a **** we can have, akin to the Blau/Sirocco of old.




Edited, Feb 7th 2011 7:45am by Lobivopis
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Final Fantasy XI 12-14-11 Update wrote:
Adjust the resolution of menus.
The main screen resolution for "FINAL FANTASY XI" is dependent on the "Overlay Graphics Resolution" setting.
If the Overlay Graphics Resolution is set higher than the Menu Resolution, menus will be automatically resized.


I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#23 Feb 07 2011 at 5:48 AM Rating: Decent
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Noodles wrote:
Lobivopis wrote:
Kila has much higher DPS from regular hits, Rapidus has much greater TP gain. Triplus is in the middle with only +5% damage on second and third hit of triple attack in it's favor.
"Only". 25% Triple Attack (5/5 Merits + Atma of Apocalypse) - one third of your melee strikes will be 2nd or 3rd hits from Triple attacks, for about 1.7% increase to TP and WS damage, the exact same as the increase from 1% Haste on Rapidus going from 24% to 25% (ontop of 15% from spell). If you're acc is capped then their DoT will be essentially the same.


The TP gain on a Delay 150 weapon is quite a bit higher than on a delay 178 weapon.

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/File:Tpgain.jpg



Edited, Feb 7th 2011 7:56am by Lobivopis
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Final Fantasy XI 12-14-11 Update wrote:
Adjust the resolution of menus.
The main screen resolution for "FINAL FANTASY XI" is dependent on the "Overlay Graphics Resolution" setting.
If the Overlay Graphics Resolution is set higher than the Menu Resolution, menus will be automatically resized.


I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#24 Feb 07 2011 at 9:21 AM Rating: Default
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Lobivopis wrote:
Noodles wrote:
Lobivopis wrote:
Kila has much higher DPS from regular hits, Rapidus has much greater TP gain. Triplus is in the middle with only +5% damage on second and third hit of triple attack in it's favor.
"Only". 25% Triple Attack (5/5 Merits + Atma of Apocalypse) - one third of your melee strikes will be 2nd or 3rd hits from Triple attacks, for about 1.7% increase to TP and WS damage, the exact same as the increase from 1% Haste on Rapidus going from 24% to 25% (ontop of 15% from spell). If you're acc is capped then their DoT will be essentially the same.


The TP gain on a Delay 150 weapon is quite a bit higher than on a delay 178 weapon.

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/File:Tpgain.jpg



Edited, Feb 7th 2011 7:56am by Lobivopis
If you cook sausages for too long they will burn. That's about as relevant as your reply. I don't see where I mentioned TP gain.
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#25 Feb 07 2011 at 6:50 PM Rating: Decent
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Noodles wrote:
Lobivopis wrote:
Noodles wrote:
Lobivopis wrote:
Kila has much higher DPS from regular hits, Rapidus has much greater TP gain. Triplus is in the middle with only +5% damage on second and third hit of triple attack in it's favor.
"Only". 25% Triple Attack (5/5 Merits + Atma of Apocalypse) - one third of your melee strikes will be 2nd or 3rd hits from Triple attacks, for about 1.7% increase to TP and WS damage, the exact same as the increase from 1% Haste on Rapidus going from 24% to 25% (ontop of 15% from spell). If you're acc is capped then their DoT will be essentially the same.


The TP gain on a Delay 150 weapon is quite a bit higher than on a delay 178 weapon.

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/File:Tpgain.jpg



Edited, Feb 7th 2011 7:56am by Lobivopis
If you cook sausages for too long they will burn. That's about as relevant as your reply. I don't see where I mentioned TP gain.



Not everyone can switch out their mainhand dagger with something else. They have to choose rapidus, triplus or kila offhand because their main hand dagger is fixed.
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Final Fantasy XI 12-14-11 Update wrote:
Adjust the resolution of menus.
The main screen resolution for "FINAL FANTASY XI" is dependent on the "Overlay Graphics Resolution" setting.
If the Overlay Graphics Resolution is set higher than the Menu Resolution, menus will be automatically resized.


I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#26 Feb 07 2011 at 7:33 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:

Not everyone can switch out their mainhand dagger with something else. They have to choose rapidus, triplus or kila offhand because their main hand dagger is fixed.


You make it sounds like a relic is an inconvenience. Personally if I owned Mandau I would go for the tried and true and use Mandau/Rapidus. I know you love your strength kila but rapidus gains tp so fast that more weaponskills is probably better than slightly stronger ones when it already averages 4-5K because of what abyssea is. The str kila +2 isn't a bad choice, but the loss of tp gain may not be worth it. 176 + 150 is blazingly fast, and you can't judge a weapon combo's DoT based solely on the damage/stats because it ignores fSTR (which is often capped inside abyssea). Once you factor fSTR and increased tp gain the Mandau/Kila +2 versus Mandau/Rapidus is not as clear cut as it first appears.

On a somewhat related note I like my Twilight Knife but I can feel the difference in speed from Kila +2/Rapidus versus Kila +2/Twilight, so much that I actually dislike Kila+2/Twilight. I'm going to try out Twilight/Rapidus in the coming week and see what I think about that though. Twilight's base damage is slightly lower than Kila +2 but delay is the same, and it does get 3% quadruple attack. By my own words "weaponskilling more often >>> weaponskilling slightly harder", but it's difficult to weigh kila +2's 3 base D + 9 str/24 ATK against 3% quadruple attack and what does appear to be a 10% activation on tp drain. However since the HP drain is a true DRAIN effect it damages the mob even if the chatlog says I heal 0 hp, making it a DoT boost similar to Sirocco's wind damage (not to meantion it's a constant self cure). I have a feeling I'll pick Twilight/Rapidus after I get a chance to try it out, but only time will tell.

Edited, Feb 7th 2011 8:38pm by Melphina
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