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2011 the new ideal SA and TA setsFollow

#1 Jan 17 2011 at 10:45 AM Rating: Default
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as we run into the new year and era of FF im gonna admit sumthing they have added sooo much dam gear its hard to figure what are the new standards.


while i have a preety good grasp on TP sets, solo SA, TA and WS sets have become a bit problematic
what are sum gearsets u all are using, i ask this cuz alot times i dont know sumthing exists
**** i didnt know this was in the game till 3 weeks ago
http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Aias_Bonnet

im hoping sumone posts sumthing that i might have missed ^^;

anyway thx in advance for any replies
#2 Jan 17 2011 at 4:29 PM Rating: Excellent
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I'm going to list what I'm using now and throw out a few thoughts on what I could probably change afterward. I'm only going into armor because weapons/ammo/ranged won't be swapped for sa/ta

Sneak Attack

Skadi's Visor, Love Torque, Pixie, Suppanomimi
Skadi's Cuirie, Raider's +2, Jupiter's, Rajas
Nifty mantle, Cuchulain's Belt, Raider's +2, Aurore

Trick Attack
Skadi's Visor, Arctier's Torque, Drone, Suppanomimi
Denali Jacket, AF +1, Breeze, Breeze
Cavaros Mantle, Crudelis Belt, Desutor Tassets (haste + crit damage), AF3 +1

There are several changes I could probably make but I either haven't gotten the pieces yet or haven't deemed them worthy of the cost. My sa/ta sets are hybrids which incorporate both max damage pieces as well as haste when applicable because solo sa/ta is part of our tp building routine meaning slow is bad and haste is good.

Body --> Loki's Kaftan. This is the number one upgrade I can make, but I haven't gotten it yet (mainly because I've been busy with other stuff and aside from the fact that Turul is a pain in the **** to find in the sky he's one of the few mobs that peaople actually CAMP, making him really annoying.).

SA specific
I could change the accessories, but I can't justify the cost of alternatives. Thundersoul Rings and Jupiter's Pearls cost too much and I haven't finished leveling my goldsmiths synergy skill to make them. Furthermore I could probably swap my cavaros's mantle in place of nifty, but I keep nifty for aeolian edge anyway so I use it here too. Other than that I'm pretty happy with it. I don't know how skadi's versus aias's bonnet stacks up. I don't have aias's yet but I'd use it in weaponskill for sure. I like the haste on skadi's visor and it has 6 attack, so I'd probably keep skadi's even if I got aias's. The aurore feet are in for the same reason. Haste >>> minimal stat gains elsewhere to keep speed high.

TA Specific
Again i could change the accessories, but windsoul earrings are even worse of an investment than thundersoul because I won't weaponskill in them, and suppanomimi >>> all in ta. I don't have a merman's earring and I'm on AU 42 so I'll add Aethir Ear pendant to that when I get it (ws set too). One clear upgrade is the Ambusher's Hose, but I haven't caught abysseas dark ixion yet to get them. The only use I have for Cruedelis belt is solo ta, and I'm seriously considering selling it and throwing my twilight belt in my ta set for more haste and inventory +1. I can obviously upgrade my af feet to +2 version as well.

There isn't too much more to be said, but I will throw out this. The AF3 set bonus can proc on sa/ta as seen Here, a 4841 damage sneak attack thanks to the af3 activation with a triple attack. I've considered adding raider's vest when I get it and even my raider's bonnet +2 to my sneak attack set (even ignoring loki's kaftan for sneak attack) giving me 4/5 af3 when I use sneak attack. The af3 helm also raises triple attack rate by 3%, and if you combine assassin's charge with triple attack you get a 100% triple attack rate. On that note, I'm using the atma of the apocalypse fulltime inside abyssea, putting my base triple attack rate at a whopping 25%, so I really feel like 4/5 af3 +2 is the best way to go for solo sneak attack. You get a lot of haste and dex from the head/body/legs as well as some dex/attack and you'd be using your af3 hands ANYWAY, and a triple damage sneak attack is just orgasmic. I'd be hesitant to throw the feet in though because those are a TA piece, and even though they increase TA rate by 1% the overall effects are minimal since you'd still have about a ~5% activation that only works when you score a triple attack, which is also relatively low without **** charge (which is a 5 minute recast). I'd keep my aurore for sa, but the rest I'd take in a heartbeat.

Edited, Jan 18th 2011 11:05am by Melphina
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#3 Jan 18 2011 at 2:11 AM Rating: Good
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I love doing these min maxing things for some reason. Just gives me a goal to go towards. I'm looking through FFXIAH.com using advanced search to find the best gear for SA and TA. Here is what I found so far (mainly going for rare/ex or cheap items)
* = more expensive / better options avail.
SA:
Mantle: Nifty Mantle (DEX +5 ATK + 9)
Ring: Airy Ring x 2 (Dex +5 each) *
Earring: Hollow Earring / ??? * (Dex + 2 / ???) Reason I put ??? here is because the other earrings are kind of hard to obtain.
Belt: Thiazi's Belt (STR -3 DEX + 7) Could just use warwolf's instead.
Neck: Shifting Necklace, Love Torque, Kubira Bead necklace * (DEX+5 AGI-3 / DEX+5 Dagger skill +7 Polearm skill +7 /DEF:5 STR+4 DEX+4 Damage taken +5%)

To be continued...


#4 Jan 18 2011 at 9:07 AM Rating: Good
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Melphina I have a question for you. If attack speed is important to you over marginal damage increases on SA and TA, why not sub out Hollow Earring for a Suppanomimi? 5% dual wield would replace the +2 dex. Especially in abyssea where you are using RR and cruror buffs, 2 dex would only represent about a 1% increase in base damage, and the acc is completely useless on SA.
#5 Jan 18 2011 at 9:29 AM Rating: Decent
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I have been using some odd choice of gear as of late. For head on ws and SA I am using Lightsome beret. It has like -9 acc or something, but acc doesnt rally matter. Same with Thalazi belt (-str). Basically -str and -acc matter little in abyssea so I have just been using those lol items that are 5k or free (and no one want to lot).

I have removed all heca from my SA and WS setups (the str is worthless) but I think they were mostly replaced with better items like af3 hands and such.

I do have some questions about attack. The larger the base weapon damage the less attack it takes to add 1 point of damage to a swing correct? If so, does this increase the marginal value of attack in abyssea on SA and TA? with 200ish dex and agl, its like having a base weapon damage of nearly 250. With a bigger base smaller changes in pdif should result in any damage increase making it past the truncation function of ffxi correct? I am fine at math, but not awesome and would hate to make mistakes trying to do algebra to solve for 1 damage increase with varying attack values.

If true, should we try to work in attack more than before? I dont have an good gear ideas on how to do so (other than I wish i had not sold my cuch's belt 9 months ago) but it might be worth my time to look for some.

Well, abyssea may soon be over anyway and things may change greatly after. I know I will miss 1.5k SAs and those rare 5k evicerations (<3 piercing weakness bonus with such a big base). We may need all that str back soon.
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#6 Jan 18 2011 at 10:04 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Melphina I have a question for you. If attack speed is important to you over marginal damage increases on SA and TA, why not sub out Hollow Earring for a Suppanomimi? 5% dual wield would replace the +2 dex. Especially in abyssea where you are using RR and cruror buffs, 2 dex would only represent about a 1% increase in base damage, and the acc is completely useless on SA.


I just changed that now. The hollow earring is a remnant of level 75 which I never swapped out but should have. You're right, I do consider suppa better than hollow to sa with even though it doesn't add damage directly, and I added it in accordingly (I also edited the post to reflect that).

Edited, Jan 18th 2011 11:05am by Melphina
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#7 Jan 18 2011 at 10:20 AM Rating: Good
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Based on my assumption that abyssea mobs on average have about 600 defense, 1 attack generally increases damage by 0.1 to 0.2% (~0.0016 which is truncated to 0.001). My sneak attack has ~200 dex in it at the moment with a d34 weapon (I know, it sucks). so @ 234 damage saying we are at exactly 1.000 pdif to start., 3 attack would raise the base 234 damage to 469 from 468. Raising DEX by 1 would raise the damage to 470. So even with the very high levels of dex, adding 1 dex is roughly equivalent to +6 attack.
#8 Jan 18 2011 at 10:32 AM Rating: Good
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My set up is very similar to Melphina's minus the really awesome pieces.

SA:
Head - Anwig Salade +4 STR/DEX +2% crit damage
Neck - Spike Necklace (I know, sad, hoping for rank 4 bonanza win for a love torque... :D)
L.Ear - Suppanomimi
R.Ear - Delta Earring or Brutal Earring
Body - Dragon Harness (Sometimes Mirke when I want to retain speed)
Hands - Rog. Armlets +1 until I finish Raider's Armlets +1
L.Ring - Rajas
R.Ring - Trying to get a Jupiter with +5-6 atk augment from abyssea, until then Spinel
Back - Nifty Mantle
Waist - Cuchulain's Belt
Legs - Enkidu's Subligar
Feet - Lithe Boots

TA:
Head - Aurore Beret
Neck - Arctier's Torque
L.Ear - Suppanomimi
R.Ear - Drone Earring or Brutal Earring
Body - Dragon Harness
Hands - Rog. Armlets +1
L.Ring - Rajas
R.Ring - Solemn Ring (It was cheap)
Back - Amemet Mantle +1
Waist - Crudelis Belt
Legs - Denali Kecks (Maybe I should keep Aurore Brais in there)
Feet - Lithe Boots
#9 Jan 18 2011 at 10:41 AM Rating: Good
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And I just remembered how Shamaya dig through all this more than a year ago > How to Maximize Sa/Ta Damage

Leave to apply the research to recent gear by our selves.
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#10 Jan 18 2011 at 10:47 AM Rating: Good
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And I just remembered how Shamaya dig through all this more than a year ago > How to Maximize Sa/Ta Damage


I've been incorporating those concepts into my sa/ta sets for ages. It's true, because I remember how TERRIBLE sneak attack was to use when I had hecatomb in it. I lost more damage than I gained because I hit myself with like 30% slow, which is a cumulative from losing ~~~ 22% haste == around 55% attack speed loss. Yes that's a ^%$# LOT and the stat gains on hecatomb; nice as they are, just were NOT worth it.

Meldi's post also brings up a good point about attack though. When a mobs defense is low it takes less attack to get the same percentile increase in damage as you would get if the mob had higher attack. Consider the below examples (assumed even match in every case)

Example 1:
Mobs defense is 50 and your attack is 50 == 1.0 cRatio
You raise your attack by 10. Your attack is now 60
60/50 == 1.2
A 20% increase in cRatio

Now consider this

Example 2:
Mobs defense is 400 and your attack is 400 == 1.0 cRatio
You raise your attack by 10. Your attack is now 410
410/400 == 1.025
A 2.5% increase in cRatio

And finally

Example 3:
Mobs defense is 800 and your attack is 800 == 1.0 cRatio
You raise your attack by 10. Your attack is now 810
810/400 == 1.0125
A 1.25% increase in cRatio


As you can see, as the mobs defenses go higher and higher it takes more attack to do the same thing. This is why I refuse to eat anything but red curry buns, and I've taken a liking to thf/war. It shines brilliantly and I never die (almost literally) because mages have so much MP they can throw it around like water. I reserve thf/nin for tanking and I don't even use it on every mob. When I got my atma of the apocalypse last Friday I tanked Shinryu thf/war and I had 2 whms and a rdm + monk and warrior support. Shinryu's accuracy is astronomical and I can't dodge his blows even with eva setup, but his melee hits only do ~~~ 400 damage anyway and it's his nukes that really hurt.... and they're almost all -Jas. I used sanguine scythe, razed, and gnarled horn and held hate like a champ despite getting the crud beat outta me with 3 people cure bombing me, and begressor really came in handy since my eviscerations still dealt ~~~ 2-3k damage. I held him for a full 5 minutes before we had red and blue triggered, and he started spamming some of his lower hp special attacks before our monk used a brew. I swear had they been prepared with proper meds and doom/terror screen and willing to risk it we could have finished off shinryu without even needing to brew him. I tell you thief/war is awesome if you have support, and thf/nin isn't as necessary as it used to be. There are still many places and mobs where I swear by /nin (tanking the Catuare for example), but /war has made a triumphant return inside abyssia and thanks to atmas it doesn't die too much either. We get native dual wield 2 at level 90 and begressor is not a joke; it's serious power. PLUS in case of emergency I can always swap to evasion gear and throw up defender, and now that I have my Twilight Torque + some other goodies I can usually stop a KO from occurring just by doing that!!

Edited, Jan 18th 2011 11:58am by Melphina
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#11 Jan 18 2011 at 11:06 AM Rating: Good
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Neck - Spike Necklace (I know, sad, hoping for rank 4 bonanza win for a love torque... :D)


I know we're talking abbout sa/ta sets here but as an aside if you don't have love torque this makes a very nice replacement for tp and evisceration.

Edited, Jan 18th 2011 12:09pm by Melphina
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#12 Jan 18 2011 at 11:15 AM Rating: Good
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Yeah, I have seen that. I might have to make an effort to pick it up. I am trying to get a Viridian demuline abyssite at the moment though for Ocelot Trousers, so it will have to be after that.
#13 Jan 18 2011 at 1:11 PM Rating: Good
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While all the points about haste/DW/Attack speed incorporated into SATA are true in a constant melee scenario, we cant forget that there are times that speed doesnt matter in the slightest. There is still a fair amount of time that you are running in for SA/TA/WS only (which is actually even more encouraged with SATA bumping up treasure hunter procs). Just dont forget that there is still a place for max damage builds where raw damage is more important than speed and things like heca sub(+1) are still top spot for that.
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#14 Jan 18 2011 at 3:24 PM Rating: Decent
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Melphina wrote:
I used sanguine scythe, razed, and gnarled horn

You should check Atma of a Future Fabulous sometime: Haste+:Minor, Fast Cast+:Minor, "Magic Def. Bonus":Superior. I always use this atma when I tank some NM with heavy magic attacks. Works great on Shinryu also.

As for SA/TA sets I recently went old-school again. By that I mean ignoring all haste and go with a full damage setup which coincidently also works for SAws and TAws.

SA gear:
Maat's Cap (missing Aias Bonnet)
Love Torque
Loki's Kaftan
Raider's Armlets +2
Nifty Mantle
Cuchulain's Belt
Hecatomb Subligar
Lithe Boots
Aesir Ear Pendant
Pixie Earring
Thundersoul Ring
Rajas Ring (a second Thundersoul Ring is probably better in abyssea but I cant say goodbye to Rajas)

TA gear:
Maat's Cap
Arctier's Torque
Loki's Kaftan
Rog. Armlets +2
Atheling Mantle
Cuchulain's Belt
Hecatomb Subligar (cant say goodbye to this yet. Worked too hard for it and still the best for TAws)
Raider's Poulaines +2
Wilhelm's Earring
Altdorf's Earring
Stormsoul Ring
Stormsoul Ring

Edited, Jan 18th 2011 10:26pm by Breaze
#15 Feb 22 2011 at 5:06 AM Rating: Good
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Interesting that everyone has forgotten about the increased SA damage from AF3 hands. I'm no math wizz, so my numbers are doubtless wrong, but they're probably in the ball park; I took Sham's formula, but changed the DEX numbers for SA so that they're comparable to the AGI numbers for TA (i.e. Dex is now worth 3.35), as DEX with those hands now do what AGI does with AF+1 hands (except that the +2 version presumably has a higher increase...). Any of the more surprising results I put the score next to it. I also listed the scores for those items that seem in dispute according to previous posts. Note that these results are presuming the AF3+1 and not the AF3+2. All DEX is worth even more (presumably) if you have the +2.

SA
Qirmiz Tathlum
Aias Bonnet (36.4) Lightsome (30.15) = better than Skadi (28.49)
Love Torque
Jupiter's Pearl (13.4) / Suppanomimi (10.8) / Pixie (10.05)
Jupiter's Pearl
Loki's Kaftan (36.85)*/ Raider's Vest +2 (52.7)
Raider's Armlets +2 (huge)
Rajas Ring
Thundersoul Ring
Nifty Mantle (27.46) / Atheling Mantle (26.8) / Cavaros ?
Cuchulain's Belt (32)
Tumbler Trunks (38.17)/Raider's Culottes +2 (36.7)
Aurore Gaiters (22.05) / Lithe Boots (20.1)

Suprising results: Lightsome better than Skadi; Pixie now roughly equivalent to Suppa (unless +2 hands have higher increase); I don't know how to quantify increased critical hit damage, but I'm presuming Kaftan to be better than vest +2 because of it... could be wrong though; Nifty better than Atheling, but where does Cavaros fit?; Tumbler Trunks are rarely discussed but truly shine (for TA as well), but may not be better than AF3+2 if Crit % is not capped???; Aurore are only best if you have haste and at least one march song (and may be worse regardless with +2 hands).

TA
Qirmiz Tathlum
Maat's Cap / Skadi's Visor if no Maat (Nemu's Khud +1 [28.61] is equivalent if missing march songs, and better without haste)
Arctier's Torque
Suppanomimi
Auster's Pearl
Loki's Kaftan (36.85)* / Denali Jacket (44.84)
Rogue's Armlets +1
Stormsoul Ring
Stormsoul Ring
Atheling Mantle (28.2) / Cavaros ?
Ninurta's Sash (28.56) / Twilight Belt (26.5) / Crudelis (23.2)
Tumbler Trunks (24.63)
Raider's Poulaines +2 (the +1 are better than anything other than the +2)

Surprising Results: Even with haste on, Nemu's Khud +1 is roughly equivalent to Skadi's unless you have at least one march song on (without haste, even Bersail's [26.8] beats Skadi); again, without quantifying the critical damage increase, Loki's scores less; Atheling rocks, but I have a feeling Cavaros will beat it; Twilight super close in value to Ninurta's, and Crudelis is pretty dang sweet if you don't have either; Tumbler Trunks again!

Store TP is given no value, but some of those pieces also have that and I bet it's worthwhile.

I realize I made a presumption about the value of the SA hands, but I know personally I haven't had any one piece make such a huge difference to my SA numbers, so it seems likely to me that they work the same way as AF+1, with maybe a 20% bonus for AF3+2 (as everything else seems to have increases in the +2 that had already existed in the +1), and that they are realistically more valuable to SAWS than the AF+1 hands are to TAWS. So if you have AF3+2, close pieces stop being so close (Lithe Boots probably win, AF3+2 pants probably win even if crit % is capped, Pixie completely outshines Suppa, etc.) Personally, if these results are found to be true, I for one am happy to see Dex outshining weird pieces that didn't seem to make sense (like Suppa) and because you're often no longer sacrificing top damage for the sake of speed as top damage wins out. Basically, it seems like because of those hands, if you seek to max dex, you win out; a piece with 6 or more DEX, or 5 DEX and a bit or STR or Attack on it will likely win out any other piece available in most slots, and I'm willing to bet we'll find the same dwarfing results with DEX over STR for WS as well (therefore, I bet the straight SA set is also best for SA WS with very few if any alterations). Also, I realize Qirmiz loses value immediately after SA or TA, once one has to build for TP, but if you're doing the in-out SA TA stuff, can't be beat. One last thing, as wiki isn't up to date with all gear, and I have only just returned to the game, I may have left out gear as I may be unaware of that gear.

Oh and, with the increase in mind, does it change the relative value of DEX Kila +2 (I realize there's a broader consideration for overall TP gain, but increases are increases so what may have been a marginal difference before, could mean a win for Kila +2 now)?

Cheers.

Edit: Just realized Desultor Tassets with crit. damage increase probably beat Tumblers for TA, but I doubt they do for SA.

Edited, Feb 22nd 2011 7:02am by OllorinAsura
Necro Warning: This post occurred more than thirty days after the prior, and may be a necropost.
#16 Feb 22 2011 at 5:40 PM Rating: Good
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You are forgetting the flooring function. When analyzing pieces like Lithe Boots vs. Aurore when using Raider's Armlets +2, raider's armlets +2 will only make a difference there if the extra dex from Lithe gives you a dex value that is divisible by 5. For example, lets say Aurore feet give you a dex of 250 on SA, and Lithe Boots give you 251. After the multiplier from RA +2, you get, 275 and 276 respectively... so you are still measuring a bonus of +1 DEX vs. 2% haste. If however, Lithe boots knock you up to 250 over Aurore feet, it is then 273 vs. 275, making it +2 DEX vs. 2% haste. Its all well and good to assign a point value to these items, but you have to take account the actual function of the game. In the first example, I would probably take the Aurore over Lithe, and in the second example it could go either way, but I would lean to the Aurore on that too.

Edit: tldr version, Raider's Armlets +2 only affects the outcome 20% of the time when comparing two pieces of almost identical equipment (difference of 1 dex), meaning when the bigger bonus gives you a dex divisible by 5.

Edited, Feb 22nd 2011 5:41pm by Meldi
#17 Feb 22 2011 at 5:50 PM Rating: Decent
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You're going to have to explain why that would be so with AF3+1 hands and not AF+1 hands. Or, if that is the case with AF+1 hands, Sham doesn't seem to delineate it in such a way, and simply increases the value of AGI directly because of +1 hands. To my mind, if AF3+1 hands gives a 15% increase to DEX calculations for SA, as AF+1 hands do with AGI for TA, then a straight value calculation, as Sham did with AGI for TA, makes perfect sense.

Edit: I think I understand your point, but I'm still forced to ask why then Sham simply gave a higher value to AGI for TA instead of limiting it to divisibles of 5. I do think I understand your point for a comparison between one piece or the other, yet it would seem to me that Sham's calculations, which have proven extremely reliable, need reworked with that in mind, as he clearly points out that the reason AGI is valued so high is because of the AF+1 hands % increase.


Sorry, sometimes I have to do my thinking outloud. So, from what you've said, it seems like the best route is still to follow the point system, maximizing DEX as much as possible (basically) until you see your final numbers and whether or not they hit a multiple of 5. If they do, you're probably good to go, but if they don't then consider some of the pieces that were not quite as high in the numbers, but offered comparable DEX and bonus stats like haste, DA, DW, etc. Yes?

Again, though, I'm not great with math, so I yield to better minds. Still, would not many of the straight DEX pieces have more value than the non dex pieces (take the earring for example) because of the AF3+1 hands?

Edited, Feb 22nd 2011 7:00pm by OllorinAsura

Edited, Feb 22nd 2011 7:13pm by OllorinAsura
#18 Feb 23 2011 at 3:03 PM Rating: Good
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Probably because a 15% bonus is a bit harder to quantify than a 20% bonus. With Rogue's Armlets +1, you get 3 extra AGI for every 20 AGI you add. With Raider's Armlets +2 its +1 DEX / 5 DEX. That makes break points for Rogue's Armlets on AGI a bit harder to pinpoint.

Edit:
Quote:

Again, though, I'm not great with math, so I yield to better minds. Still, would not many of the straight DEX pieces have more value than the non dex pieces (take the earring for example) because of the AF3+1 hands?


Yes, with Raider's Armlets +1/+2 DEX becomes more powerful and you have pretty much the right idea. The argument between Haste/DW pieces and more DEX/AGI is about the big picture. The idea behind Haste/DW is that using those pieces instead of more DEX is that maintaining attack speed ends up producing more OVERALL damage than adding a bit of DEX/AGI to your set. When you have a piece that has a significant amount of DEX/AGI on it though over a piece of Haste/DW gear, the added damage from that DEX might win out in the OVERALL damage argument. This is why Aurore Feet probably beat Lithe overall, even if Lithe benefits from the bonus from Raid.Armlets +1/+2 because at the cost of 1 or 2 dex, you get to maintain 2% haste, keeping your attack speed up to generate more overall DoT.

Edited, Feb 23rd 2011 3:18pm by Meldi
#19 Feb 23 2011 at 4:35 PM Rating: Decent
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Glad to know I wasn't completely off track. And I did still calculate Aurore as better, though not by a whole lot... which is justification enough for me not to wear any of that pink monstrosity.
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