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Apocalypse vs GHFollow

#1 Jan 10 2011 at 4:57 PM Rating: Decent
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There is certainly a use for this, but I'm debating including it in most of my DD setups as my third atma on THF.

So, assuming you start with RR/VV, we've had a few discussions recently on the advantages of GH, ScorpQueen, etc., but 15% triple attack is also pretty nice.

That's almost a straight 30% increase in damage (i.e. 15% triple attack is 2 extra swings each time--which also get TP to WS faster), downside being if you get too many triple attacks you'll be wasting TP more often with 125 TP WSes.

Gnarled horn is an increase of 20% to crit hit rate which increases both TP and WS (assuming evisc). To calculate TP would be easy (if I had a parser)--take a typical party and compare the average damage of each TP swing and compare it to the average damage of a crit hit. If it's double, it's a 20% increase in TP damage. WS damage should mirror that. Also, wiki says the counter rate is 10 to 20%, but it seems far lower than that to me. Any info on counter rate?

So GH would be very close (depending on ratio of damage a crit/non-crit and couter rate).

I'm also assuming here that TA takes precedent over DA (I can't ever keep track of where the status of that is).

I'm also excluding the 50AGI from GH on trick attack damage since, well, rarely do I seem to get a chance to trick attack onto anyone. Mostly because there are so few melee DD on a mob at once/sides being important/etc.

Unlimited RR is very nice, but there are definitely situations where I wouldn't want to bother with it if I can convince myself that GH can be better DD wise.
#2 Jan 11 2011 at 1:04 AM Rating: Decent
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RR/GH/Apoc go.
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#3 Jan 11 2011 at 1:11 AM Rating: Decent
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Don't forget everything is situational. It might even be smart to use apocalypse and GH in certain situations.
#4 Jan 11 2011 at 9:14 AM Rating: Decent
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TybudX wrote:
RR/GH/Apoc go.

+1

Very hard not to use this combo fosure especially solo maybe change one for cloak and dagger or siren shadow if tanking or solo...
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#5 Jan 11 2011 at 9:33 AM Rating: Default
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VV does little for thf, no Str modded WS (except Mercy Stroke on Mandau) so it's essentially regain which may or may not drop a hit and 25 attack/5 DA. RR is almost Permanent, Apoc is also almost Permanent (the TA beats out even GH), and GH would be 3rd best atma for pure DD.
#6 Jan 11 2011 at 10:01 AM Rating: Decent
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RR/GH/Apoc is the way to go most of the time.

The only change would possibly to swap Apoc out for a HP atma if you're tanking and need to break a certain threshold of HP due to a specific NM one-shot type move.

The AGI boost on GH helps greatly with TP given to the mob and thus limiting the nasty stuff it can do at times.(Some people missed this change that took place in the last update) Its also been stated the relationship between AGI and evasion further helps boosts our evasiveness.

Never give up RR if you plan on do any sort of damage.
#7 Jan 11 2011 at 10:19 AM Rating: Decent
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I personally think people over use RR often. It is not like DD is the had party of abyssea. Depending on the mob and size of group, !! triggering can be much harder than just killing the mob.

In these cases, people should use STP, Conserve TP, regain, type atmas. People might should even use different subs than normal (like war or drk or mnk) to gain access to more WS in total.

I know lots of players just exp/merit in abyssea. I have quit exping at all in abyssea. There is just too much exp to gain killing nms or whatever to bother with exp anymore. My last parse of nm spamming (on nm **** in Altepa) put the exp/hour of that run at about 60k. I know its really easy to break 100k+ an hour in exp, but with up to 60% of that exp rolling in with a 4 man group killing stuff that dops useful items, I see no point in using stones or time in a exp group (which likely is full of gimps and people with 2, 1 or no lunar abyssites).

So depending on type of group and goal, remember that DD is in no way hard. Using RR 100% is a waste.
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#8 Jan 11 2011 at 11:23 AM Rating: Good
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I have personally been tanking a lot of 'bigger' game. Bigger NMs require far more HP devolves thf into the tank role where 2 things matter. HP and keeping enmity.

I often have two HP atmas to push me into 3500hp range. Yes you DO need that much on some thigns, and it makes enmity loss from damage far less since the lost enmity is based on the % of your HP you loose. More HP means X damage is a smaller % of your total HP.

This leaves my HP covered but requires damage for both hate and kill speed. RR is a 1 stop shop for that. These big boss buggers (especially in new zones) have REALLY high def and even a little eva to deal with. RR covers all your bases brutally efficiently for DD on HNM class mobs and leaves my additional 2 atma slots open for survival.

On medium mobs, I will often drop the second HP atma for a DD related one. This is where I use GH for all the eva/subtleblow/Crit powa benefits.

On even smaller mobs, I will forgo HP atmas and go RR, GH, and either SA (neutral HP+atk/str), Omega(if i dont care about HP at all), or SS (if I feel i need a little HP over just cruor buff boost and enjoy the extra crit damage).

If I am in a larger group and there for procs, ill jsut replace SA/omega/SS with VV for regain and call it a day.

In every scenario I generally deal with, RR is a staple. Its just so brutally efficient for DD on thf with dex/crit rate/crit damage I cant give it up unless i am not doing a DD role in any capacity (hasnt happened yet. I guess if you are just a proc/TH monkey in a large group, but who wants to do that!)
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#9 Jan 11 2011 at 1:48 PM Rating: Default
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I would switch to a level 1 Dagger before I dropped RR Atma in Abyssea. It really is just that good.

Oh, and discernment says sup - when it finally decides to proc dammit.

Edited, Jan 11th 2011 4:11pm by Neisan
#10 Jan 11 2011 at 3:51 PM Rating: Decent
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Of course it's situational. My post was for damage output.

I don't have HP merits but as a galka with full abyssite merits I'm at 3K before atmas and if I need to use one for it, impreg tower puts me at 3800.

As for VV, it's advantages are: increasing fstr (isn't capped certainly on NMs with just cruor bonuses)/PDIF on all hits, 40 free TP a minute from regain, and the "roughly" straight 5% increase in damage from double attack.

Whether or not that is better than the 20% more crits (1.0 increase in PDIF plus the 38%ish damage bonus on crit), I'm not sure.

Triggering is a question of strategy that atmas minorly influence. You want a dedicated tank/healer and then people to trigger. You CAN get regain only atma and stand around, but it's usually better to just TP on side mobs and go in the for the triggering.

Really, discernment has a pretty high proc rate and makes it not nearly so bad to trigger provided you have the correct jobs around for the procing.

But, anyway, RR/GH/Apoc sounds interesting and for some reason I haven't tried it yet. I'll give that a go next time on THF.
#11 Jan 11 2011 at 4:15 PM Rating: Good
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Grrr stupid galkas. I have 4/6 abyssites of merit and 8/8 HP merits as a mithra. With TWO HP superior atmas+cruor buffs I am at about 3500 in normal gear. /hate galkas. When you only have 1 atma slot left to hurt things, its pretty clear to pick RR :P

I suppose I could create a more hybrid HP set with permanent dedicated HP slots, (especially since i recently got meridian ring etc) but then I will need to do a buncha work to determine if its better to get HP atma+DD gear or HP gear+DD atma.....and thats more work than I plan to do right now xD

But this is only really a concern for BIG boss mobs mostly in the new zones, or particularly ****** mobs like glavoid that can 1 shot the unwarry ><
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#12 Jan 11 2011 at 4:26 PM Rating: Decent
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Is one of your superior atmas ebon hoof? I think that's only 30% incraese where as impreg tower is 50%. Whereas SS is another 20% but also gives you some more critical hit damage. If you did impreg tower + SS you'd be about 3350 HP (if my numbers hold up) but have crit hit damage instead of sleep resist.
#13 Jan 11 2011 at 4:38 PM Rating: Good
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Whenever i need bawls to the wall hp i had been using ebon hoof+Impreg tower+RR. I was under teh impression that both were 30% hp buff since wiki doesnt list exact % on tower. But that is easily verified when I next get online. That would be good to know if there is a difference. Might get away with tower+ the 'good' perma hp gear swaps (full time meridian ring, gigant mantle etc).
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#14 Jan 12 2011 at 12:00 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
I don't have HP merits but as a galka with full abyssite merits I'm at 3K before atmas and if I need to use one for it, impreg tower puts me at 3800.
Freaking galkas -.-. Probably the best overall race.

I was thinking RR/Apoc myself and for a third, I couldn't decide between GH and Alpha & Omega. I was thinking Dark Depths or Scorpion Queen before, but after the wiki has been recently updated, both of these atma seem a lot weeker.

The OP had a question but the answer was to replace VV instead. But that being said though, I do wonder about A&O vs GH. 10% triple is going to be less than 20% increased DPS but it's still a lot. I'm not sure what pDif typically rides at in Abyssea. Pre-abyssea, ~1.0 pDif average in merit parties was very common evenw ith good equip. If it's the same now, then a crit doubles damage. So doubling dmg, 20% crit from GH is slightly better for dmg during the TP phase. But triple attack from A&O not only increases melee DPS, but also TP gain.

So I'd say for the TP phase, A&O beats GH. But GH should be better in the WS phase. 20% crit rate at 1.0 pDif is 20% more dmg, but pdif is probably a little higher than 1.0 in a WS set. The big difference here is that whereas in the TP phase, A&O gave an almost 20% boost in DPS, it:s not going to do that for WS's because of the 8-hit cap.


To re-iterate, is GH's WS dmg advantage and extra AGI more important than extra TP gain from A&O in terms of overall damage?
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#15 Jan 12 2011 at 6:10 AM Rating: Default
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I'd have to look over the math again but from what I recall for dual wielding Gnarled was higher overall damage than A/O, assuming the other two atma were RR & Apocalypse.

Edited, Jan 12th 2011 8:11am by Neisan
#16 Jan 12 2011 at 8:28 AM Rating: Good
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There are a lot of choices to play with, but personally I think scorpion queen is better than gnarled horn. 50 agi/10% crit rate for sTP +20 is a better trade than you may think. My favorite full DD set is currently RR + SQ + VV because I haven't gotten apoc from shinryu yet. We used to say one point of haste was worthless and blitz ring was bad until we realized fights don't last a set duration and because of this just 1% haste gave predictable returns over time. VV's regain should also raise WS frequency over time in a similar fashion because of this, and 50 str (25 atk) and 5% DA doesn't hurt. I'll definitely try out apoc when I get it though, but right now I have a very high ws frequency and a 68% melee crit rate, and since evisceration raises crit % by 10-15% at 100% tp anyway I still get monstrous weaponskill results, but I'm getting far more of them than if I had chosen a full damage only atma selection.

Don't underestimate sTP (major)!!! I think you guys should really try Scorpion Queen instead of Gnarled Horn. The triple atma selection of Razed Ruins + Scorpion Queen + Apocalypse looks very!! nice, and I think that will be my DD combo of choice once I get red on shin.

Edited, Jan 12th 2011 9:31am by Melphina
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#17 Jan 12 2011 at 2:44 PM Rating: Decent
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FYI, not sure if it has actually be verified but someone changed VV to be 10% DA on wiki.
#18 Jan 12 2011 at 3:15 PM Rating: Default
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Brb, changing it back.

To Melphina, after doing more testing I'm going to have to agree, it seems dropping hits to 100 TP was more important than I thought (should be basic but I never get it quite right with dualwielding). RR/SQ/Apoc should be best then.
#19 Jan 13 2011 at 10:12 PM Rating: Decent
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What about Alpha/Omega instead of Apoc? You lose 5% Triple Attack but you get a hefty +50 Attack.
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#20 Jan 14 2011 at 6:53 AM Rating: Default
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50 attack isn't competitive with 5% TA at all.
#21 Jan 14 2011 at 7:04 AM Rating: Good
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Noodles wrote:
What about Alpha/Omega instead of Apoc? You lose 5% Triple Attack but you get a hefty +50 Attack.

Well no
Neisan wrote:
50 attack isn't competitive with 5% TA at all.

I'll answer differently. Since you probably use Raze Ruins with another CritRate Atma (Gnarled Horn or Dark Depth) you should be on caped or almost on those 74% (or above) crit hit. Therefore, Atk do less than Triple Atk (more CritHit).
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#22 Jan 14 2011 at 11:28 AM Rating: Good
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I wouldnt write off atk so fast. Dont forget since everything but haste has diminishing returns, 'stacking' any 1 stat becomes a larger trade off the more of it you stack, while the reverse is true as well. Basically, the more multi-hit you have, the less effective adding more is. Also the less multi you have the more effective adding more is. Same for atk. The less you have the more important it is and vice versa.

The exact breaking points depend on the value of each compared stat and other junk (mob stats, etc). With that said, I wouldnt write off attack so fast when we have so much accesss to multi hit gear/atmas and still really short on the atk end as we always have been.

Also dont forget, all our crazy crit damage boost stuff is STILL affected by atk. Think of crit damage boost like piercing damage boost for crits. You dont stop using atk on birds because you get 'free' damage boost. You use as much as you can get because it is all multiplied by the extra 'free' damage.
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So some hypothetical situations to consider:
Crit rate: RR+GH+Raider legs+Ddex+merits+base5%=78% crit rate.
Crit Dam: 8% trait, 30% RR=38% crit damage boost
DA: Twilight belt2%, Brutal5%, Atheling3%=10%
TA: Base+merits+Raid head=13%
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Multi Hit:

So: (Assuming TA procs before DA based on a recent thread floating around here)
with an additional 10% DA from A/O atma:
TA:23%
DA:10%
Total additional hits per 100 base attacks: 151.4

With 15% from Apoc:
TA:28%
DA:10%
Total additional hits per 100 base attacks: 160.4

getting 5% more triple attack is a net gain of: 1604/151.5=1.0595 or 5.95% more hits.

Apoc gets 5.95% more hits over time than A/O atma under the above assumptions (TA procs before DA and in the listed gear).

So the question is, does 50 atk do more melee damage than 5.95% more hits (and it has to win by a decent margin to beat the associated 5.95% more TP as well. But much of that is lost in overflow, so it will not equal 5.95% more WS in practice).
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APOC

Lets assume 1.0 pdif for both simplicity and the fact that thf atk generally sucks a lot.

A crit will put our ratio at 2.0. Multiplied by our 38% damage boose= 2.76x the damage of a non-crit. We crit at 78% crit rate with GH/RR/merits and Raid pants+2. So per every 100 hits landed:

100 hits=
78 will crit at 2.76x noncrit power.
22 will not crit and land for 1x power.
So you do the equvalent damage of 237.28 hits at 1.0 Pdif every 100 hits.

But we dont hit 100 timer per 100. With Apoc atma and DA gear, we actually hit (worked above) 160.4 times, or 160.4% more.

1.604*237.28=380.6

380.6 is our base number with apoc, GH, RR. Every 100 hits at 1 pdif, the multi hits and crits bring our total damage up 380.6%. Multi hits+crits make us do 3.8x more damage than 0 crits and 0 multi hits. Lets see what 50 atk might do at teh expense fo 5% triple.
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A/OMEGA

Here I am just removing that 5% TA for the multi hit and boosting Pdif to account for 50 atk. 50 atk against an IT-ish mob starting at 1.0 should be 'roughly' 0.1 boost to Pdif. So instead of 1.0, we would have about 1.1. This is an estimate and can vary depending on your exact atk and the mob level difference, but it will be close enough to see if it is even in the same ballpark as 5% more TA. So lets go!

Same calculations as above but boosting the base Pdif to 1.1 and dropping the multi hit multiplier down from 160.4 hits (apoc) to 151.4 (A/O) gives us the damage equivalents of:

A crit at 1.1 pdif with 1.0 pdif boost from crit and 38% damage boost=2.1*1.38=2.89. A crit does 2.89x more damage than a 1.0 pdif hit.

100 hits=
78 will crit at 2.89x noncrit power.
22 will not crit and land for 1.1x power.
So you do the equvalent damage of 250.24 hits at 1.0 Pdif every 100 hits.

But again, were not hitting 100 times. Toss in the (5% TA lower) multi hits of 151.4 or 151.4% more hits and we get:

1.514*250.24= 378.9

378.9 is our base number with A/O, GH, RR. Every 100 hits at 1 pdif, the multi hits, crits and 50 atk(+0.1pdif) bring our total damage up 378.9%. Multi hits+crits+atk make us do 3.789x more damage than 0 crits and 0 multi hits and +0atk.
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With the following assumptions of:
1.0 pdif
Specified multi hit and crit rate gear(13% TA, 10% DA, 4% crit rate in gear)
RR+GH atmas (with 3rd being either Apoc of A/O)
That TA procs before DA
50 atk adds 0.1 pdif

Apoc does ~0.5% more damage than A/O.
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The 5% TA rate is virtually identical to 50atk in raw DPS (wins by the SLIGHTEST hair, but considering the generalized nature of my assumptions, it is to close to call and can swing either way based on bajillions of factors)

However, this is only DPS. This does not include the extra TP from APoc. Nor does it attempt to calculate WS damage (gut says WS damage will favor A/O due to 8hit caps and only the ability for 2 hits to multi hit while atk affects ALL hits. Basically the amount of damage from multi hits drops through the floor on WS compared to TP). With increased TP from Apoc and increased WS damage from A/O, its probably, again, a wash and will vary a lot based on situation/WS spammage etc.

Long story short, it looks like (from some relatively basic) calcs that the overall they are to close to call without some really obscene and **** calcualtions for VERY specific scenarios. Heaven forbid you change the other 2 atmas, get any buffs, fight exceedingly high or low level mobs or use different gear than that listed for this example.

However, I will say that I originally placed my bet on A/O before this and now see that it is far closer than I had imagined. This also ignores the other aspects of the atmas. A/O shoots your HP total in the foot. Apoc gives perma RR and quick cast. Once you factor in those non-damage related pros/cons I will be personally be using Apoc over A/O from now on (once i get stupid apoc atma....) since the raw damage is not heavily skewed towards A/O as i thought it would.

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#23 Jan 14 2011 at 11:44 AM Rating: Good
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I am glad I stopped doing the math because Banalaty did it so much better than I would have. Food for thought also, That base TA rate can jump from 23% all the way to 29% if you are using Triplus Dagger and Epona's Ring (I think that is the one with 3% TA and 3% DA), further decreasing the margin of Apocalypse purported benefit.
#24 Jan 14 2011 at 12:07 PM Rating: Good
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Ah somehow the ring entirely slipped my mind. I considered the dagger, but left it alone since I wanted to apply it to all dagger combos to widen the applicable side of the info. Either way, your point still stands. The more Triple attack stuff we get, the less appealing adding more becomes.

I still dont know what the proc rate of the AF set is on triple attacks and that would obviously boost the initial power of TA the more AF+2 is used, but it just bumps the bar higher. TA will still diminish, but the exact point that other DD 'stuff' that takes up the same 'slot' the TA does (gear/atma etc) beats said TA in a given 'slot' will just be moved up a bit, not negated (if that makes any sense). I cant stress this enough, my previous post was a very generalized 'ball park' estimate. There a TONS of things that will adjust the outcome in a real game scenario of something less than half a % different. Both are 'close' to each other. IMHO, close enough that the additional stats (-HP vs RR/Quick Cast) far outweigh any tiny damage boost that will swing either way constantly.
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#25 Jan 14 2011 at 1:41 PM Rating: Decent
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Banalaty wrote:
I have personally been tanking a lot of 'bigger' game. Bigger NMs require far more HP devolves thf into the tank role where 2 things matter. HP and keeping enmity.

I often have two HP atmas to push me into 3500hp range. Yes you DO need that much on some thigns, and it makes enmity loss from damage far less since the lost enmity is based on the % of your HP you loose. More HP means X damage is a smaller % of your total HP.

This leaves my HP covered but requires damage for both hate and kill speed. RR is a 1 stop shop for that. These big boss buggers (especially in new zones) have REALLY high def and even a little eva to deal with. RR covers all your bases brutally efficiently for DD on HNM class mobs and leaves my additional 2 atma slots open for survival.

On medium mobs, I will often drop the second HP atma for a DD related one. This is where I use GH for all the eva/subtleblow/Crit powa benefits.

On even smaller mobs, I will forgo HP atmas and go RR, GH, and either SA (neutral HP+atk/str), Omega(if i dont care about HP at all), or SS (if I feel i need a little HP over just cruor buff boost and enjoy the extra crit damage).

If I am in a larger group and there for procs, ill jsut replace SA/omega/SS with VV for regain and call it a day.

In every scenario I generally deal with, RR is a staple. Its just so brutally efficient for DD on thf with dex/crit rate/crit damage I cant give it up unless i am not doing a DD role in any capacity (hasnt happened yet. I guess if you are just a proc/TH monkey in a large group, but who wants to do that!)


This. For me the equation result isn't about most damage anymore, it's about what I can accomplish solo/duoboxed or with whoever is available and wants the extra seals/+2 items, etc.

I typically go with RR/MC/SS
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#26 Jan 14 2011 at 2:19 PM Rating: Default
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Sanguine Scythe's addition to Crit damage is severely depreciated not only due to the Crit damage cap but also due to Thf having 2 critical attack bonus traits, you're not even getting half of the crit damage+ from Sang Scythe. I wouldn't recommend it.

Edited, Jan 14th 2011 4:19pm by Neisan
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