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#1 Dec 28 2010 at 9:04 AM Rating: Good
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Traded some points for a couple of these and ended up with two of note. One with DMG+5 and resist stun, the other with no DMG, but crit damage +4%. I'm still finishing up my first Kila+2, so the DMG is my choice atm for main hand. The question is, which is going to make a better off hand weapon when I finish my Kila+2? I'm leaning towards the crit one (I'm not capping crit damage yet), but I'd like some input.
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#2 Dec 28 2010 at 9:53 AM Rating: Decent
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Razed Ruins + THF's JT is already 38% Crit Dmg enhancement. This leave 12% for other enhancement (by Atma and/or by Gear).
Add an Loki's and you're at 43% then your dagger and you're set at 47%.

Another part is your Crit Rate. The damage increased by your crit damage dagger must cover the loss in Base DMG if you off handed it. Maybe some heavy math will prove something but I think it could be done inside Abyssea with right atma > RR, GH & so what so ever ofer more crit rate (but cap at 70~75% if I remember correctly another post from here).

Edited, Dec 28th 2010 5:03pm by Neraya
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#3 Dec 28 2010 at 10:12 AM Rating: Decent
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Yataghan is only good at its highest potential. According to wiki, it would be at +8 dmg and 6% critical. Even then, it is only good as main weapon since this type of weapon the critical only apply to the hand that is holding it.

The delay on this weapon is too significant to bother trying to make it an offhand weapon since thief has a lot of other options now that are really good.
#4 Dec 28 2010 at 12:52 PM Rating: Good
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carlcarl wrote:
it is only good as main weapon since this type of weapon the critical only apply to the hand that is holding it.

The delay on this weapon is too significant to bother trying to make it an offhand weapon since thief has a lot of other options now that are really good.


Bah, I forgot about this. Ultimately, I'm aiming for rapidus, but I was thinking this'd cover the gap until then. Guess it's back to finishing that second Kila.
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#5 Dec 28 2010 at 12:57 PM Rating: Good
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Work on the kila anyway. In a few months we will be lv 90 and kilas will at LEAST match the base damage of a PERFECT yataghan, but be a good clip faster, not to mention even MORE +stats.

Anything non-magian that looks good now will be obsoleted soon enough, so I wouldnt bank on them to much. Also, rapidus is pretty easy to grab. Its 100% drop.
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#6 Dec 29 2010 at 9:54 AM Rating: Decent
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I've been using my dominion points on these for lack of anythign better.
I'm using 2 as my current daggers just because my lack of real weapons. I'm mid athame OA2-4 and fusetto ws dmg+, somewhere on the plant trial for both, and figured I'd pick up these in the meantime.
I actually want to go Triplus/Rapidus and am just missing the bat KI to have pops for both, but I've just been so busy in game playing massive amounts of catch-up*, that I haven't had time to farm the last KI or pop the triplus one. It also doesn't help I'm in japan and my LS is based in europe.

Even after I pick up a real dagger combo, prolly gonna keep using as make-shift evasion daggers untill I bother doing eva kilas.
I've picked up:
Dmg+6 Crit dmg+2
Dmg+5 Crit dmg+3
Dmg+8
So far, out of about 8-10ish. The sad thing is that the DPS of 2 of these is better than the DPS of what I was using before (cyclone+ fusetto and blau) so yeah. I'm really behind on daggers...

*When I say massive, I mean it. I just finished 2 rng af3+1 scars pieces yesterday, and am still like 5/8 thf feet 0/8 drg head 6/8 thf head 5/8 rdm legs 0/8 rdm head/feet, haven't got a single +2 haven't started a single heroes +1, dont have razed ruins, stout arm, gnarled horn or voracious violet, and having just done another mega boss today and one 2 days ago, am at a total of 4/9 and thus have no third lunar abyssite. Not to mention thf is my only Lv90, rdm, rng and drg, aswell as my whm mule are still 85-86. I also still haven't gotten around to farming my T4 nuke spells on thf for rdm (I'm not paying 300k or watever they've shot up to). So yeah, I'm very behind.

Edited, Dec 29th 2010 4:01pm by Noodles
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#7 Dec 30 2010 at 12:56 PM Rating: Good
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If you're concerned about capping crit rate from Atma like Naraya was hinting at, I'd check recent pages of BG's major Atma thread. Melphina and Vegetto both had samples indicating a 50% cap from Atma, but sample size could be an issue so I'd still keep my eyes and ears peeled on the most current info as it comes out. Either way there is no global crit cap at 75%. If crit even globally caps it should be at 95%, so I think your crit+ dagger is safe, OP.

As for which is better, I'd have a hunch the base dmg is better, but playing with some napkin math might prove me wrong. It's hypothetical but, say you were at 1.0 pDif. Crits would hit at 2.0, doubling damage. Let's say you had two base 35 daggers. Your crit rate effects both of those daggers. So with crit rate +4%, that's essentially a 4% chance to double either of your daggers' base damage. Equivalent to an 8% chance of doubling a single daggers base damage. So consider (35)*0.08 vs (5). The number to the right of the 'vs' representing the bonus from the base damage+ dagger. To the left, the bonus from the crit dagger.

It comes out to a number less than 3.5, vs 5. So it looks like the base damage dagger would win according to melee DPS. Unfortunately if you wanted to be really accurate, you'd have to consider WS dmg as well. Evisceration with dual wield is a 6 hit WS. Only one of those hits consider the base damage of your offhand dagger, whereas the rest are your mainhand. So for WS if the base damage+ weapon is in your offhand, it's doing a lot less. You only get +5 base damage to the total base damage of your WS. Whereas that "less than 3.5" I mentioned, would be added for each of the 5 other hits. In addition, it'd be bigger than 3.5 base damage, since the crits aren't coming from a 35 base-dmg dagger, but from 35base damage + damage from evisc's 30% dex mod.

So the crit one definitely wins on WS if it is in your offhand. Question is, which dagger helps more for your overall damage. I won't figure it out for you, but just offer you the above as food for thought.

Edited, Dec 30th 2010 7:11pm by Shamaya
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#8 Dec 30 2010 at 7:59 PM Rating: Decent
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The augment on these daggers is Crit damage+ not crit rate+.

On that tangent, is crit damage+ the same as rate+ in that it's for each weapon indepentantly? or if you had two with crit damage+4 on them, would you get a proper +8 or is it still +4 each hand's hits?
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#9 Dec 30 2010 at 11:47 PM Rating: Good
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Oh, hah. That being the case, what I wrote in the previous post was pointless >,<

Pretty sure though that the crit dmg+ should work for both hands.
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#10 Dec 31 2010 at 1:30 AM Rating: Good
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Im not so sure. Crit RATE from weapons has always been exclusive to the hand (LolHeartSnatcher among others). Stats have always been both (acc/atk/str/dex etc), but what i think of as 'effects' are always limited to the weapon itself. Crit rate, enspell damage (sirocco), +WS damage, +TP bonus, etc.

If i had to guess, (which means absolutely nothing other than what my gut says) Id guess crit damage was weapon/hand specific. But it would be a rather simple test. Do a number of SA with highest crit damage weapon you have, then put it in your offhand and replace it with an identical base damage dagger in main hand on level 1 mobs.
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Join 'People Against The Heart Snatcher' and help put Thfs on the right P.A.T.H.S. today!
#11 Dec 31 2010 at 6:05 AM Rating: Good
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Well, I had some time to kill while waiting on the day to change for trials, and decide to test this just for S&Gs. Decided to do the test a bit different than Banalaty described. I figured I'd just do SAs until I got something outside the min/max range for the daggers. Relevant info:

D40 main hand weapon
Crit damage +4% off hand
122 DEX
Weapon rank is 4, so fSTR caps at 12. Base damage is 40+12+122=174.

Max crit (without 4% bonus) is 174*3.15(max pDIF)*1.08(bonus from job traits) = ~592

My lowest so far has been 665. :/ What am I missing here?

Edited, Dec 31st 2010 7:18am by Desoo
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#12 Dec 31 2010 at 11:35 AM Rating: Good
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Are you attacking things that take extra damage from piercing?
#13 Dec 31 2010 at 2:20 PM Rating: Good
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Why yes, yes I have been. Good catch. Bees take an extra 25% damage from piercing, so:

Quote:
D40 main hand weapon
Crit damage +4% off hand
122 DEX
Weapon rank is 4, so fSTR caps at 12. Base damage is 40+12+122=174.

Max crit (without 4% bonus) is 174*3.15(max pDIF)*1.08(bonus from job traits) = ~592


592*1.25=740

My max crit was 766. Apparently the damage bonus DOES work off hand.
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#14 Jan 02 2011 at 5:24 PM Rating: Decent
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You need to test with another weapon too incase our crit damage trait went up. Or incase both are true.
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