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Atma caps at + 95% critical hit rateFollow

#1 Dec 15 2010 at 12:23 AM Rating: Good
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EDIT: I'm going to edit this post because the data is over a month old and incorrect. When I first made this thread I did not have the gnarled horn and I did some testing data on DD + RR fighting Ika Roa and got approximately 77% crit hit rate, at which point someone suggested this

Quote:
Crit rate+ from atma just seems to have a +50% cap.


This was the general understanding some of us had at the time (if I remember correctly this was a quote from an old bg thread someone brought up), but since then a lot more data has been gathered. If you stack Razed Ruins + Gnarled Horn + Dark Depths it will take your melee crit rate straight to 95%. That means the follows

Critical hit RATE caps at 95%
Critical hit DAMAGE increase caps at + 50%

Edited, Jan 12th 2011 1:53pm by Melphina
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#2 Dec 15 2010 at 1:00 AM Rating: Good
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Crit rate+ from atma just seems to have a +50% cap.

With thunder staff or rogue's roll, people have parsed 95% crit hit rate over long periods of time.

with only 50% from atmas +24% base + 4% from your legs gives your exact 78% figure you've seen.

Edit: Ok, it gets really close to your 77% calculated figure.

Edited, Dec 15th 2010 2:02am by LafingCat
#3 Dec 15 2010 at 8:15 AM Rating: Good
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Just making sure, but do we know for a fact that the 'major' crit rate from dark depths is 30%? I believe a few atmas have different values for the same effect even if they are labeled as the same potency 'tier' (either that or the numbers are just guesstimated leading to inconsistencies).

Has dark depths been tested alone for crit rate? (i assume RR is set in stone now, though i have not personally tested or seen tests....maybe assuming to much?)

Just to make sure we are not assuming more than we should and extrapolating wrong results from false base assumptions.
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#4 Dec 15 2010 at 8:53 AM Rating: Good
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My parses with RR and no other crit+ atma have been rock solid at 54%, so I'm pretty sure on that one. Haven't really done anything with DD and not RR, though I could try it out at some point.
#5 Dec 15 2010 at 9:02 AM Rating: Good
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lol this is why i need to start parsing again regularly. I could have had this info long ago xD
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#6 Dec 15 2010 at 9:15 AM Rating: Decent
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If my character is fighting, my parser is running lol. Even if it just confirms what I expect my acc or damage or whatever to be, its great info to have. Plus I like to figure out what I can drop at this or that camp, or if something seems to be working really well or poorly.

Plus its just fun to see how much damage you have done. If it didnt require so much spam, it would be nice to know how much damage everyone else was doing. But I never leave damage on for anyone but myself unless in a low # of DD party (ie 1 or 2 other dds max) and want to compare or they want #s.

It would be nice to call people out on their crap acc or low avg damage per hit, or over use of some lame WS ect with parser data, but that is just too much spam in an abyssea alliance. On the rare occasion I get a low lvl party to finish a sub or something, I use the parser to figure out what types of food to give the other ppl in the party so I can get exp faster.

well that was a lot of parser rambling, sorry if it has no point and is unrelated to the OP.
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#7 Dec 15 2010 at 9:38 AM Rating: Good
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I don't parse that often, but I will run Kparser when I'm interested in finding stuff out. I got a new pc a few months ago and it's pretty damn badass so I may do what LordTrey is doing and just parse everything. It's nice to know this stuff and it does help with gear choices. As a side I only had an average value of about 41 damage on melee which is close to a 1.0 pDIF, but I was using Dark depths and Razed Ruins so I believe my fSTR may not have been capped either. I have yet to get my 3rd lunar abyssite, but it's good to know that atma crit rate caps at +50%. I was wondering if my af3 legs were impacting my crit rate or not, and it sees they were (LafingCat's info is very useful). I always filter outside damage so parsing can only help. I'll be curious to see what kinds of values other mobs return on a per hit damage ratio. I think I'll go back to RR + SA or maybe RR + VV for pure damage until I get my 3rd lunar. I lack too much attack in the new zones and I don't think Dark depths is worth it yet. Maybe RR + AO + DD, but I still think there's a place for VV or SA even with DD out, depending on overall attack. I'd definitely use DD in the scars and especially visions zones though, because I KNOW my attack is good there. Hero's zones raise the bar again by a lot, so I'm going to hold off on DD atma until I get more attack somehow.
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#8 Dec 15 2010 at 1:50 PM Rating: Decent
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Do I understand correctly then that:

-Critical hit rate caps at 50% from atma

-Critical hit damage caps at 50% from all sources

Quote:
I'd definitely use DD in the scars and especially visions zones though, because I KNOW my attack is good there.


Maybe I misunderstand because I haven't played much with synthetic anywhere yet but is DD even available outside of heroes?

Also, I was kind of thinking that since it caps at 50% it would make sense to use RR/VV and then if you wanted that last 20% crit hit rate, use scorpion queen for a theoretical 30 store TP as opposed to the AGI/eva? (for DD I mean).

#9 Dec 15 2010 at 3:24 PM Rating: Good
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First off

Quote:
Maybe I misunderstand because I haven't played much with synthetic anywhere yet but is DD even available outside of heroes?


Yes, once you unlock a synthetic atma it becomes available in every zone. It's just a key item and as such works in all areas.

Quote:
Also, I was kind of thinking that since it caps at 50% it would make sense to use RR/VV and then if you wanted that last 20% crit hit rate, use scorpion queen for a theoretical 30 store TP as opposed to the AGI/eva? (for DD I mean).


There are better choices than the dark depths for crit rate, I just don't have them yet. The Gnarled Horn is enough to cap crit rate and give a bigger agility boost but because of work I missed the runs where my shell farmed it, and I've been looking at the store tp atmas with curiosity as well. I didn't remember the scorpion queen until you brought it up, but it looks awesome. I'd like to see what a "Major" store tp atma would do to my tp gain. Thief never used to have any way to get sTP outside of corsair rolls and gear, and most of the gear with sTP was outclassed by haste/acc alternatives. Now we can do a lot more than before, so I'm trying to see what kind of sTP options I could add and where. I'm currently using Rajas/belenos's/brutal fr sTP +8, Loki's + goading belt would be +20 (or 15 with raiders vest +2). Kila +2/Rapidus gets 4.9 tp/hit and the atma of the scorpion queen would increase my crit rate to 50% as well as add +30 sTP for a total of 38 sTP (45 with loki's and 50 with goading and loki's). Instead of 4.9 tp/hit i would get 6.7 tp/hit with no gear changes, 7.1 with loki's, and 7.3 with loki's and goading. There's obvious diminishing returns after the atma is added so blue raider's vest is a sure bet over loki's if you have the scorpion queen and rajas/belenos/brutal, but goading is still a good upgrade and I can still cap haste with it, although I may want to fulltime my blue hands in lieu of homam one day.

I LIKE the scorpion queen and I LIKE Razed Ruins, but a 3rd atma is kinda up in the air. I'd probably choose the alpha/omega and let it be with that for dd, but I need 2 more zone boss kills for my 3rd lunar yet so it's a matter of time. My work schedule cuts into my playtime so I get done what I do as I can.

Edited, Dec 15th 2010 4:27pm by Melphina
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#10 Dec 15 2010 at 3:51 PM Rating: Good
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So we are 100% sure that DD=30% crit rate? (and based on that, by extension that atmas crit rate caps at 50%)
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#11 Dec 15 2010 at 10:22 PM Rating: Good
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I'm 100% positive that RR is 30%, yes.

(+/- 1% anyway >_> )

Edited, Dec 15th 2010 11:24pm by LafingCat
#12 Dec 16 2010 at 12:27 AM Rating: Good
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LafingCat wrote:
I'm 100% positive that RR is 30%, yes.

(+/- 1% anyway >_> )

Edited, Dec 15th 2010 11:24pm by LafingCat
So you're somewhere between 99% and 101% positive? :-)
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#13 Dec 16 2010 at 2:46 AM Rating: Good
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Just checking but is the 50%atma cap assumed here based on melphinas sample, or also based on a prior source?
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#14 Dec 16 2010 at 3:06 AM Rating: Decent
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Its all over BG. Kristchy<sp> tested it.
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#15 Dec 16 2010 at 9:41 AM Rating: Good
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Yeah I like Kirschy. OP to that Atma thread is here, but I didn't see anything about an atma cap.

Later on after work I dug a little bit further and I see that Cream Soda aka Vegetto tested it with about a sample of 600.

In any event Melphina's sample is bigger. It's not like we can say for 100% certainty her dDex was capped but if it was she would've done 78% like cat said. I guess it's safe for us to assume capped dDex is likely? In any event when the dDex:crit testing was going along, bigger changes than I expected could occur between even 10k and 20k samples; something like the difference between 18-20% crit rate iirc (or maybe a 1% diff). I'd say these two sample still look pretty decent tho. If there were any more doubt about it, someone could try using 3 crit rate atma.
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#16 Dec 16 2010 at 10:44 AM Rating: Good
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MDenham wrote:
LafingCat wrote:
I'm 100% positive that RR is 30%, yes.

(+/- 1% anyway >_> )

Edited, Dec 15th 2010 11:24pm by LafingCat
So you're somewhere between 99% and 101% positive? :-)

Positively!
#17 Dec 16 2010 at 8:06 PM Rating: Good
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There is a 99.9% chance that my dDex was capped everywhere. I broke down the parse by individual mobs and you can see the results between the NM and the Peak Pugils. Individual Mob Comparison

As you can see Ika-Roa has higher defense than the Peak Pugils (as a NM should). I only hit Ika-roa for an average of 39.36 but I hit Peak Pugils for 45.46 so that's 5 actual damage more and looks like approximately 10% difference in average pDIF. I highly DOUBT that Ika-Roa had identical agi as the peak pugils, but the crit rate was mirrored perfectly on both mobs. So unless the only difference between a NM and non NMs is defense and not agi/str/dex my dDEX was capped everywhere. I had over 210 dex in my MELEE build and if that wasn't enough to cap dDEX on a normal mob I'd be very shocked.

Edited, Dec 16th 2010 9:09pm by Melphina
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#18 Dec 16 2010 at 8:39 PM Rating: Good
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So I did a *very* quick parse with DD as my only crit rate+ atma today. Not positive of results because I only have a sample of ~150, but my wyvern parsed 27% crit (I parsed 39% with 200 hits, but cruor buffs with no atma +dex probably means I'm neither at the floor nor the cap.)

Minimum crit rate would be expected to be 35% if it was a +30% bonus... so DD may only be 20% after all.

Small sample size though, so I'm not sure if 35% is outside the reasonable bounds on accuracy.
#19 Dec 16 2010 at 9:11 PM Rating: Good
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150 hits is way too small when you're considering a XX/100 percentile. When I ran my data collection on razed ruins + sanguine scythe versus RR + SA I collected a sample size of 1K swings each, and I remember watching the averages change a lot until about 500-600 swings landed where they stabilized pretty well. I wouldn't call a test with a sample size of less than 600 swings reliable, but the ideal is in the range of 1,000.

Edited, Dec 16th 2010 10:12pm by Melphina
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#20 Dec 16 2010 at 9:15 PM Rating: Good
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Yeah, I was intending it to be longer but stuff came up. (XP party cut short by needing to leave to collect the DRG feet >_> )
#21 Dec 22 2010 at 3:34 PM Rating: Decent
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It would apear that pepole using RR/GH/DD are seeing near constant crit rates so...no 50% cap then I guess from atma? Over on the BG atma effects discussions more tests were done etc.
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#22 Dec 22 2010 at 4:23 PM Rating: Good
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Yeah, I'm starting to wonder if RR is mislabeled and should be Superior crit rate/damage, as every other major seems to be only +20.
#23 Dec 23 2010 at 7:55 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Yeah, I'm starting to wonder if RR is mislabeled and should be Superior crit rate/damage, as every other major seems to be only +20.


It IS superior critical rate. The patch notes included Razed Ruins in the changes. Look at it again in game.

Critical Hit Rate: Superior
Critical Damage: Major
Dex: Superior

Edited, Dec 24th 2010 8:31am by Melphina
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#24 Dec 24 2010 at 1:52 AM Rating: Good
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Curse you time traveling SE ninja!
#25 Jan 12 2011 at 12:48 PM Rating: Good
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Forgive me for bumping this, but I've seen my old OP referenced now and I went in and edited it to reflect more accurate information. Crit rate caps at 95% and atma does NOT cap at + 50% crit rate. There are still some people under the understanding that it does, so I wanted to clear that up.
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#26 Jan 12 2011 at 1:00 PM Rating: Good
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Thanks for the clarification. The less old misinformation floating around the better!
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#27 Jan 13 2011 at 5:25 AM Rating: Decent
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Melphina wrote:
atma does NOT cap at + 50% crit rate


So RR+VV+GH is best combo then?


Store TP+100 is best dagger for Evisceration?

Edited, Jan 13th 2011 7:32am by Lobivopis
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I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#28 Jan 13 2011 at 8:39 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
So RR+VV+GH is best combo then?


No, I merely wanted to clarify that the crit hit rate cap was 95%. My personal favorite DD combo would be Razed Rruins + Apocalypse + Scorpion Queen. Remember lobi, this thread is almost a month old. I just edited it because the info in it was completely wrong.
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