Scholar

33 posts

i was wondering if it would be better to tp in my loki. i have 26% without body and i thought that 3%dw on to of it would be better then 5% crit dmg i have alot of acc so i could get by w/o the 10 on Mirke but wanna make sure im useing loki best i can also what do you guys think of af3 +2 body?

Sage

2,270 posts

At lv 90 with DW3+suppa, you have 30% base DW. Adding a mirke on top is a 4.48% attack speed increase. If you use the DW boomerany (also 3%) mirke will add 4.69% attack speed. Compare that with a raw 5% crit damage (ignoring acc which is in mirkes favor, or the Fstr and atk from the 5str) and mirke wins without much sweat.

~4.5% to ~4.7% MORE attacks will beat a 5% crit damage as it will always be less than 5% damage.

Outside abyysea, best case scenario @1.0pdif:

Crit RATE capped from dex/merits at 24%. Crit damage boost of 8% (trait) becomes 13%.

Crit @1.0 pdif+1 for crit. 1.13/1.08=4.63% damage boost when you crit which is only 24% of the time. 4.63*0.24=** 1.11% total damage boost** to melee. Pretty weak and pales to the ~4.5+ that DW alone gives, let alone the str/atk etc.

Inside abyssea (RR) @1.0 pdif

Crit rate now at 54%. Crit damage at 38% (42% with loki). 1.38/1.42=2.9% damage boost using loki. Only affects 54% of your melee hits, so 2.9*0.54=**1.57% total DPS boost.**

Toss in the 5 str on mirke and the**TP gain** from actually hitting more and it just stomps it BAD.

To be fair i was a little lazy and didnt give crits any extra weight in the total melee calc as the total crit damage is SLIGHTLY higher with the crit damage boost making it a slightly larger part of your total damage. But it is not going to triple-quadruple the effect, which is what you would need to to even match 3% DW, let alone the str/atk and extra TP.

*Edited, Dec 13th 2010 2:36pm by Banalaty *

~4.5% to ~4.7% MORE attacks will beat a 5% crit damage as it will always be less than 5% damage.

Outside abyysea, best case scenario @1.0pdif:

Crit RATE capped from dex/merits at 24%. Crit damage boost of 8% (trait) becomes 13%.

Crit @1.0 pdif+1 for crit. 1.13/1.08=4.63% damage boost when you crit which is only 24% of the time. 4.63*0.24=

Inside abyssea (RR) @1.0 pdif

Crit rate now at 54%. Crit damage at 38% (42% with loki). 1.38/1.42=2.9% damage boost using loki. Only affects 54% of your melee hits, so 2.9*0.54=

Toss in the 5 str on mirke and the

To be fair i was a little lazy and didnt give crits any extra weight in the total melee calc as the total crit damage is SLIGHTLY higher with the crit damage boost making it a slightly larger part of your total damage. But it is not going to triple-quadruple the effect, which is what you would need to to even match 3% DW, let alone the str/atk and extra TP.

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3,777 posts

Banalaty, don't forget that the Loki's Kaftan has store tp + 7 on it; the same amount as skadi's chausses. I always advocate gearing for sTP when it comes as a benefit to already good gear rather than focus mainly on it, but Loki's Kaftan qualifies as an already good piece. It's difficult to measure the exact benefits of sTP on daggers but +7 is a decent amount and as a simple rule of thumb "more is better". You're still getting 11 dex (5.5 accuracy) +5% crit damage increase, and sTP +7. The raider's +2 enhances triple attack damage through the set bonus but it's not a straight "Piece A is better tha piece B". I won't knock people who tp in Loki's because I can't say fr sure it's less effective than alternatives. I was thinking of tping in it myself once I get one. It's a nice little body armor, and it does raise tp gain just like the alternatives. Atm I'm undecided on my opinion but I wouldn't rule loki's out as a great tp piece. sTP +7 is a larger boost than most other pieces we get and makes it a worthy contender.

*Edited, Dec 15th 2010 10:42am by Melphina *

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Scholar

1,983 posts

For reasons Melphina mentioned it's not the easiest task to get a comprehensive comparison, but I have to say that that was a pretty good breakdown Banalty. You just about answered this question that I've been wondering for awhile.

10 posts

Something I was wondering, for the Mirke users, what augments are you using now? I was thinking of redoing my current virsion; the standard +3 dual weild / +10 acc. Lately with Rappidus, Raiders Boomerang, general dagger skill, i've found myself overflowing with acc. So, question is, what goes with the oblgatory +3 dual, of the options avaliable only the +10 att or the +3% crit hit rate really *** me up. Has anyone done any numbers or have any gut feelings about one vs. the other? I've found crits to be a huge source of my power lately, and there seem very few gear options for crit hit rate, unlike crit hit dmg now.

Thief's Knife

15,050 posts

Mistress Melphina wrote:

The raider's +2 enhances ~~trick~~ triple attack damage through the set bonus

+2 Raider's head/vest/legs with homam feet and bullwhip belt give you capped haste, allowing you to full time the +2 raider's hands with no haste penalty and loosing the triple attack enhancement from only one piece.

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I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20

Scholar

207 posts

I'm also personally aiming for a 4/5 +2 set with Ballerines / Homam Feet for TP.

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Sage

2,270 posts

I had actually completely forgotten about the 7stp on loki.

I still think loki has an uphill battle because outside abyssea you just dont crit enough to make it worthwhile. Inside, the 5% crit damage is washed out due to diminishing returns of increasing crit damage (and possibly wasted depending on atmas if hitting 50% cap), but DW will always be increasing returns in either situation.

That said, I am planning on the AF+2 body to tp in over all else in one of the 4/5 Emp. AF+2 setups(body/leg/head+hand for DD, or body/leg/head+feet for TH/Eva). At that point I will redo my mirke into something else. Not sure what, but it will probably be very situational. Something like an eva+fastcast for ichi casts or something.

Since we are on atmas, I have tweaked my 'standard' atma sets a bit now. For tank-ish things (i dual box with my rdm now a lot), i go RR(duh), Sanguine Scythe(hp20%, crit dam+20%, Enm+), and the new Dark depths (agi/eva/crit rate). This set is pretty self explanatory. RR for powa, SS for HP/enmity and a little more powa(though overkil crit damage), and i have replaced stout arm with Dark Depths for more crit rate with a side of Agi/Eva for tanking. Very pleased with these results.

For RAW POWA, I am now using RR(Duh), Omega(TA, atk, -hp25%), and Dark depths for MOAR crit rate! and agi for TA). I really miss my SA and VV as options, but I really think a TON of that str is just going to waste. But i still get to enjoy them on Drg going VV/SA/RR for epeen drakesbanes! :P

I still think loki has an uphill battle because outside abyssea you just dont crit enough to make it worthwhile. Inside, the 5% crit damage is washed out due to diminishing returns of increasing crit damage (and possibly wasted depending on atmas if hitting 50% cap), but DW will always be increasing returns in either situation.

That said, I am planning on the AF+2 body to tp in over all else in one of the 4/5 Emp. AF+2 setups(body/leg/head+hand for DD, or body/leg/head+feet for TH/Eva). At that point I will redo my mirke into something else. Not sure what, but it will probably be very situational. Something like an eva+fastcast for ichi casts or something.

Since we are on atmas, I have tweaked my 'standard' atma sets a bit now. For tank-ish things (i dual box with my rdm now a lot), i go RR(duh), Sanguine Scythe(hp20%, crit dam+20%, Enm+), and the new Dark depths (agi/eva/crit rate). This set is pretty self explanatory. RR for powa, SS for HP/enmity and a little more powa(though overkil crit damage), and i have replaced stout arm with Dark Depths for more crit rate with a side of Agi/Eva for tanking. Very pleased with these results.

For RAW POWA, I am now using RR(Duh), Omega(TA, atk, -hp25%), and Dark depths for MOAR crit rate! and agi for TA). I really miss my SA and VV as options, but I really think a TON of that str is just going to waste. But i still get to enjoy them on Drg going VV/SA/RR for epeen drakesbanes! :P

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Scholar

1,983 posts

Lobivopis wrote:

Mistress Melphina wrote:

The raider's +2 enhances ~~trick~~ triple attack damage through the set bonus

+2 Raider's head/vest/legs with homam feet and bullwhip belt give you capped haste, allowing you to full time the +2 raider's hands with no haste penalty and loosing the triple attack enhancement from only one piece.

As more and more people finish their AF3+2, it'll eventually be a very good thing for us to try and find out, if possible, what the proc rate is on the AF3 set bonus.

Set bonus being: Occasionally triples the damage of the 2nd and 3rd hits of a triple-attack. Minimum requirement: 2 pieces equipped. Damage proc-rate increases as you equip more pieces.

I can attempt a preliminary estimate of how much the set bonus can increase our dmg.

If we're using Banalty's RAW POWAAA build (RR, Dark Depths, Alpha and Omega), /nin and we're lucky enough to have all of brutal, AF3+2 head, and Epona's Ring, Twilight Belt, and Atheling mantle, then unless I'm mistaken we'll have a total of 26% Triple Attack and 13% Double Attack. (100 - 13)*(1 + 0.26*2) + 13*2 =

The 2nd and 3rd hits of our triple attacks will comprise 45.24/158.24 of all of our hits, or ~28.6%.

Therefore 28.6% of our total hits would have a chance of having their damage tripled. If equipping the full set caused the proc rate to be 50%, then the set bonus is raising our damage by (100 - 28.6) + 28.6*(3*0.5 + 1*0.5). Incidentally enough, equaling a 28.6% increase in damage.

So this formula can be used to check again for the damage increase when/if we find the proc rates of the Raider's set depending on how many pieces you have equipped. (100 - x) + x*(3*y + 1*[1 - y]), where 'x' is the "% of our total hits that are triple attacks" and 'y' is the "proc rate."

Knowing the % dmg contribution that the set bonus is giving us will help math geeks make future gear decisions. Such as Raider's hands vs Dusk+1, Raider's feet vs homam, or Full Raider's + Bullwhip/Twilight vs 3/5 Raider's + Nusku's, etc.

1,713 posts

Quote:

Dark depths for MOAR crit rate! and agi for TA

Any reason for DD over GH? Or just missing GH atm?

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Twashtar (90)

Leviathan

3,777 posts

I didn't even notice I wrote trick instead of triple attack when I proofread that post. I fixed that just now. oops.

*Edited, Dec 15th 2010 10:44am by Melphina *

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Sage

2,270 posts

That is actually a good point. I had dark depths for teh evasion and greater crit rate (GH=minor, DD=major) and i didnt care much about the greater agi on GH as I am rarely TA when i dual box.

But with the (possible) crit rate cap from atmas (see other thread), and the new agi=subtle blow stuff, DD may overkill the crit rate cap (maybe). If it does, then it will not offer any DD boost over GH+RR while GH will still have more subtle blow/trick attack.

Depending on how the crit rate cap information turns out, I very well might swap them.

But with the (possible) crit rate cap from atmas (see other thread), and the new agi=subtle blow stuff, DD may overkill the crit rate cap (maybe). If it does, then it will not offer any DD boost over GH+RR while GH will still have more subtle blow/trick attack.

Depending on how the crit rate cap information turns out, I very well might swap them.

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The added "subtle blow" (what are we calling the agl mod on that?) from the extra agl is so **** nice these days. I generally fight my own mob in exp alliances (hopefully 3-5 are being killed at a time), and rarely get more than 1 tp attack on me per mob.

I do use TA a lot by positioning the mob I am fighting so I can ta any random person even if they are fighting something else. I also thought the crit was less difference. And counter damage is no joke either. TA + counter can add up, and less tp moves may(like stun or para tp moves) or may not effect you. plus like 15 evasion difference between the 2? Idk, lots to consider.

Not that it really matters, I only really exp now to get to the next level cap. To few things to merit left, need them for random exps... Guess I need to finish off blm.

I do use TA a lot by positioning the mob I am fighting so I can ta any random person even if they are fighting something else. I also thought the crit was less difference. And counter damage is no joke either. TA + counter can add up, and less tp moves may(like stun or para tp moves) or may not effect you. plus like 15 evasion difference between the 2? Idk, lots to consider.

Not that it really matters, I only really exp now to get to the next level cap. To few things to merit left, need them for random exps... Guess I need to finish off blm.

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Twashtar (90)

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