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Treasure Hunter Testing DataFollow

#1 Dec 07 2010 at 8:57 PM Rating: Excellent
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I'm surprised nobody has posted this yet or referenced to it but I ran some basic Treasure Hunter potency testing after logging in for the first time tonight and I LIKE what i see. I posted the info in the TH >>> Melee thread but I think it's big enough news it deserves its own thread. The test data is located here.

Summarizing my test results: Treasure Hunter is applied the moment we make our first action upon a mob and includes all TH+ item bonuses then and there. This effect will not diminish if we unequip those items, and so long as the mob does not go yellow the highest level of TH stays upon the mob straight to the kill. In other words the thief's knife can be treated like a regular piece of TH + armor and only needs to be equipped at the very start of the fight. Once we perform our first action upon a mob equipped with Thief's Knife + whatever armor we have we can unequip that armor and swap to a useful offhand with no consequence to the TH rate. Oh by the way, the thief's knife does work in the offhand for the opening strike.

Now I would still fulltime the thief's knife when farming dynamis or salvage but that's only because it involves fast kills on scrub mobs with highly desirable drops (salvage cells count as highly desirable). There are very few examples of scrub mobs that die in seconds outside of those two events with drops that are worth using TK for (I can only think of water farming for Olla Grande offhand). Currently there is the example of Magian Trial upgrade items which can also be bazaared, but that will change as supply outweighs demand over time. I think this is good news because the place where Treasure Hunter matters most is NM's, and I can live with holding my TK for my opening attack if it means I won't need it for the rest of that NM battle.

EDIT: I just did some extra testing referenced HERE. The summary of that testing is that treasure hunter equipment can be applied at any point in the battle. You can start the battle off in DD equipment and swap to the TK + TH + armor at the very end or begin the fight with it and it makes no difference. So long as you have all of your TH + items equipped at any point during the battle you only need them on for ONE action and they can be removed with no consequence thereafter.

Edited, Dec 16th 2010 12:52am by Melphina
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#2 Dec 07 2010 at 10:19 PM Rating: Good
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I'm feeling stupid now so I just want to clarify.

So, you engage naked, pre-90, and you land level 3 TH. So even though you only had TH2 and no TH+, it just adds an extra 1 point to your TH level for good measure?

And you say that after hitting it, you equipped TH+ hands, hit, then took them off. And then your TH rose to 4. But you're saying you need to equip your hands at the beginning of the fight or the TH level won't raise? But in your example it did raise.

Ok ok, so thinking about it, the way I understand it is,

Initial TH Proc
[TH Traits - TH Level]
TH1 - 2
TH2 - 3
TH3 - 4
TH3+TK - 5
+Armlets - 6
+AF3Feet - 7
+Atma? - 8
2nd TH Proc - 9

So (assuming the TH atma does stack), engaging the mob with all of this equipped at lvl 90 will proc TH at lvl 8. Then you can take it all off. And then after awhile it will raise to 9..which is the MAX? Or can it raise again?

Is this correct? Sorry if I'm coming off dumb here.
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#3 Dec 07 2010 at 10:33 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
So, you engage naked, pre-90, and you land level 3 TH. So even though you only had TH2 and no TH+, it just adds an extra 1 point to your TH level for good measure?


I goofed up one of my tests somehow, dunno how. Treasure hunter + items can be applied at any point in the fight with no consequence. So if you want to wear DD attire until the very last few percent then swap into maximum TH equipment and make one final attack that will be just as effective as having all the attire on for the first strike. It only takes one action, and it does not matter when.

Edited, Dec 8th 2010 12:34am by Melphina
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#4 Dec 07 2010 at 10:47 PM Rating: Good
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I would have checked your pic but photobucket is blocked at my work ;x Youtube also blocked xD. I think I'm gettin ya tho. So you can, and will always, get 2 messages about "TH's potency raising", no matter what level TH you have, so long as the fight is long enough. That is absolutely strange that you would have to start the fight with max TH and just a tad lame. But nothing more than a nuisance; nothing beats the fact that we can just take it off afterwards.
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#5 Dec 07 2010 at 11:09 PM Rating: Good
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Actually I'm running my second test again. not sure if I was right or not about the being unable to apply later on. Wanna see for sure.

I was wrong about TH only applying on the first attack. See above. I got too excited about the one round only thing that I misread the chatlog and scrolled to an entirely different section of the logs.

Edited, Dec 8th 2010 12:36am by Melphina
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#6 Dec 07 2010 at 11:11 PM Rating: Good
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I can post screen shots of a test I performed where I was able to apply TH from gear after my initial action on the mob.
#7 Dec 07 2010 at 11:26 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:

I can post screen shots of a test I performed where I was able to apply TH from gear after my initial action on the mob.


No need, I agree. I went and edited all that erroneous commentary out so screenshots are unnecessary. TH items can be enacted at any point in the battle and only need to be equipped for one action for the full benefit, including right before the mob dies with no consequence whatsoever. I REALLY like this update. It has dispelled so many old myths about how treasure hunter works. That's priceless in its own regard.

Edited, Dec 8th 2010 12:37am by Melphina
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#8 Dec 08 2010 at 3:41 AM Rating: Good
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What I see happen in the worst case scenario :
1. THF engage with Full TH set and do an action.
2. THF increase TH effect to the max he/she can with his/her best gear.
3. THF leave the party & /sit for retarded people since there's no decrease over time ?

Retarded people are just retarded people, SE can't fix that >.<

Well have to check :
What happen if the THF stop melee ? And if the THF leave the party / ally ?
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#9 Dec 08 2010 at 10:43 AM Rating: Good
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Very nice to be proved wrong lol.

I myself started getting similar results when i helped a friend with his trials. I ranged attack mobs with th gear (base th5 without TK), and with full dps gear the th boost would start at 6. The probable reason my test didn't fair well was due solo, and sa/ta really helps triggering the addictional effect. I also did my test at fortifications, which i don't know if they behave in a different way than usual monsters (although i could get th to 8 by meleeing with th without issues).

I still think though, that boosting th with dps gear before having done any action with th gear it's going waste that boost, making it necessary/possible to reapply it. For example:
1- Melee in dps -> raise to 4.
2- Swap in full th gear and do any action with them on-> base set to 6 (overwriting that previous 4).
3- Melee in dps and sa/ta -> raise to 7 and then 8.
#10 Dec 09 2010 at 8:14 AM Rating: Good
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Here's some interesting information for you. I just ran out to the boyadha tree and shot a death cap and linked 4 of his friends. I had my TK + AA equipped when I used Aeolian Edge and hit all 5 of them, then swapped to rapidus sax and normal tp gear. After the first mob was dead I procced a TH boost on one of the additional mobs and it started at TH level 5. I'm level 87 now so I still have base TH2 trait. This means that "Hitting multiple mobs with an AoE will apply treasure hunter to every mob simultaneously", and this effect works even if they have not yet been claimed". It appears the only way for a mob to lose its TH effect is to go yellow and regenerate a tic of health, the same trigger to reset rage timers.

Really useful information there.
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#11 Dec 09 2010 at 4:00 PM Rating: Good
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Heh, that too is an interesting test Melphina. After TH info was released years ago at fanfest, some dynamis shells started having thieves sub blm or brd, etc, and do AOE's to ensure TH on everything. But some people raised the point that years ago, there was a patch which stopped AOE TH from working (at least if you one shotted the mobs hit by the AOE?), something about Blm/Thf becoming way too rich in the earliest stages of the game through AOE farming. Then again, I never saw any such patch notes and this was just an old story. Good to see you have some information regarding this ^^
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#12 Dec 10 2010 at 2:59 AM Rating: Good
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Ok, please correct me if you've seen otherwise, but here's what I noticed tonight while farming. Everytime I would get an initial treasure hunter proc, I would then equip my th+ gear and see if I could get another one. Both times it happened, the 2nd treasure hunter proc only went up by one relative to the first one, meaning the th+ gear was ignored. In other words, unless I messed up both times, you have to equip your th+ gear prior to the first th+ proc in order for it to count. Somewhat annoying, but not the end of the world.

*Edit: It occurs to me that since I was only swapping in the armlets, it could either have been that it ignored them and continued on from the previous level, or that it switched to a new base value of TH (my TH3+1) and started the count over from there, since either way would have resulted in the 2nd proc going to +5. Or I could have just messed up and not gotten them swapped in somehow.

Edited, Dec 10th 2010 3:24am by Hripthe
#13 Dec 10 2010 at 3:03 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Heh, that too is an interesting test Melphina. After TH info was released years ago at fanfest, some dynamis shells started having thieves sub blm or brd, etc, and do AOE's to ensure TH on everything. But some people raised the point that years ago, there was a patch which stopped AOE TH from working (at least if you one shotted the mobs hit by the AOE?), something about Blm/Thf becoming way too rich in the earliest stages of the game through AOE farming. Then again, I never saw any such patch notes and this was just an old story. Good to see you have some information regarding this ^^

That patch just dramatically lowered the drop rate when killing with AOE, and as far as I know it is still in effect. Definitely good to know that TH can be applied via aoe, though.
#14 Dec 10 2010 at 3:19 PM Rating: Good
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As a side note (way more testing needed), but with TH 6 on Dyna-Xarc NM's (3) we were 100% on drop (finally got my AF2 hands lol). TH5 on one gave us no AF.

Drop rates on Regular mobs were showing similar results but not the 100% we saw on the NM's. We still saw 5 AF drops off of roughly 18 mobs. Went in with 4 people for the fun of it and saw a RDM hat go to waste because no one needed it ><

I have to say that I am enjoying this change, and might actually start working towards the +2 feet for our small group events.
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#15 Dec 10 2010 at 5:52 PM Rating: Decent
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Shamaya wrote:
stuff


Pretty sure it was an 'adjustment' to how drops were handles when a mob died to an -aga spell, nothing to do with TH. One of SE's less well known BLM tweaks.
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#16 Dec 12 2010 at 11:08 AM Rating: Good
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Didn't see it mentioned here yet, but just hit 90thf last nite and was farming geodes today. Kept getting TH level 6 with just TH3 trait and TK but then finally noticed that Treasure hound was active so it definitely does stack with existing TH. Knew there was some debate about it when it first came out but now we know lol.
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#17 Dec 15 2010 at 9:53 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:

I still think though, that boosting th with dps gear before having done any action with th gear it's going waste that boost, making it necessary/possible to reapply it. For example:
1- Melee in dps -> raise to 4.
2- Swap in full th gear and do any action with them on-> base set to 6 (overwriting that previous 4).
3- Melee in dps and sa/ta -> raise to 7 and then 8.


Quote:
Ok, please correct me if you've seen otherwise, but here's what I noticed tonight while farming. Everytime I would get an initial treasure hunter proc, I would then equip my th+ gear and see if I could get another one. Both times it happened, the 2nd treasure hunter proc only went up by one relative to the first one, meaning the th+ gear was ignored. In other words, unless I messed up both times, you have to equip your th+ gear prior to the first th+ proc in order for it to count. Somewhat annoying, but not the end of the world.

*Edit: It occurs to me that since I was only swapping in the armlets, it could either have been that it ignored them and continued on from the previous level, or that it switched to a new base value of TH (my TH3+1) and started the count over from there, since either way would have resulted in the 2nd proc going to +5. Or I could have just messed up and not gotten them swapped in somehow.


I'm curious now as to whether or not this is what happened in my original test that I screwed up. If a lvl 90 thf doesn't have any TH equipment on and gets an initial proc to + 4, then equips TK + AA will the next proc be level 7 or level 6? If the TH gear impacts the level at any time then it would be level 7, but the highest level of treasure hunter overwrites lower levels, so if you proc a boost with no gear on then swap to gear you've already overwritten your previous level and must go from there. I bet this is what happened to me. Realistically you will want to simply start NM fights with your TH gear on and then take it off the rest of the fight. It's the simplest way to ensure maximum effectiveness, and it gets it out of the way immediately so we can focus on other stuff the rest of the fight.
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#18 Dec 15 2010 at 10:10 AM Rating: Good
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I am pretty sure it just goes off your base TH at this point until you 'pass it up' with procs. EG: start with TH3 (no gear lv 90). You get a proc to 4. Equip TH+2. Now if you could add TH at any point, the next proc would go to 7 (you had it up to 4 and added 2=6 meaning the NEXT proc would be 7). I am pretty sure at this point it does NOT work this way.

*Start: TH3
*Proc x1=raises to 4
*Equip +2 gear(base of 5)
*Proc again=raises to 6(NOT 7)

In other words,
*Start with TH3
*Proc up to 5
*add +2 in gear (base of 5)
*next proc=6. (no change from equipping gear)

If you add TH gear that goes BEYOND what you ahve already raised the effect to melee-ing, it just bumps you up to your Trait+gear. If you have already passed what your gear offers from meleeing, then it will have no effect as it is just a lower level of TH.

It seems +TH gear just jumpstarts your TH off the bat. It can be equipped after the fact to bump it up to that level at any point, but if you melee proc beyond your TH gear, adding it has no effect. You just get to start at a higher base TH and not 'waste' that time meleeing to get to that point as other thfs would.
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#19 Dec 16 2010 at 2:52 AM Rating: Decent
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No one here is mentioning Bounty Shot.

The rangers are saying that it only works if there's no thf. If theres a thf or /thf then it gives a "no effect" message.
So it seems bounty shot is another version of TH, probably equivilent to TH1/TH2 as it gives "no effect" as /thf with th2. What I'm wondering is what if you had a Rng Bounty Shot with either you outside the alliance or inside but before you do any action, and then you tag it with TH afterwards? I wonder if that might give you one more level of TH for you to start your climb up to TH9 or whatever.

Probably wont, but worth a shot just incase bounty is bugged and wont proc even if it's higher than the equivilent TH level tagged by a thf or /thf.

If it doesn't work though, then Bounty Shot is 90% useless (outside of soloing things if you dont have a betetr job leveled for solo0 and 100% useless i you have Thf and Rng leveled.
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#20 Dec 16 2010 at 8:47 AM Rating: Good
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It won't. Treasure Hunter gear effectively "jump starts" your TH on the mob and raises it to whatever level you have. If a level 90 thf hits a mob with TK + AA + AF3 feet then the mob's treasure hunter will be level 6. If a naked level 90 thief hits a mob and procs the treasure hunter bonus it will raise it to level 4, however if that thief then equips TK + AA + AF3 feet they will raise the treasure hunter to level 6. Since level 6 is higher than level 4 it will immediately overwrite the lower level, and the next treasure hunter boost would proc to level 7. This would waste the initial proc (4) because it was overwritten by stronger gear (6), but had you worn that gear when you made your first hit the first proc would have been 7, and the second proc would have been 8.

If that was difficult to follow for anyone the simplest way to say it is that if your gear is stronger than the current level of TH it will overwrite that level and any TH + procs up to that point will have been wasted. Since Bounty Shot is equivalent to either TH 1 or Th2 and ranger can never raise the level further than that a thief's TH will always overwrite that of bounty shot, so a ranger will never be able to add more treasure hunter than a thief can naturally.
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#21 Dec 16 2010 at 1:53 PM Rating: Good
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Mistress Melphina wrote:
IIf a level 90 thf hits a mob with TK + AA + AF3 feet then the mob's treasure hunter will be level 6. If a naked level 90 thief hits a mob and procs the treasure hunter bonus it will raise it to level 4, however if that thief then equips TK + AA + AF3 feet they will raise the treasure hunter to level 6


Let me see if I understand what you are saying Melphina.

Start fight with THF 90 + TK + AA + AF3+2 = TH 7?
Start fight with THF 90, add TK + AA + AF3+2 = TH4, then 6?

Do you really lose a level if you front load TH gear on the mob, or do you need +3 trait to raise it 2 levels? Not talking about the eventual proc up later.
#22 Dec 16 2010 at 7:45 PM Rating: Excellent
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The best way to explain this is with several examples. All of the below scenarios are assuming a level 90 thf with base TH3, and whenever I say "TH gear" I will be referring to all three pieces (TK + AA and AF3 feet).

Scenario 1:
A thief hits a mob with TH gear on. Mobs TH level is 6
The thief gets a TH proc. Mobs TH level is 7

Scenario 2:
A thief hits a mob but does not have TH gear on. Mobs TH level is 3
The thief then equips TH gear and hits the mob again. Mobs TH level is 6
The thief gets a TH proc. Mobs TH level is 7

Scenario 3:
A thief hits a mob but does not have TH gear on. Mobs TH level is 3
The thief gets a TH proc. Mobs TH level is 4
The thief then equips TH gear and hits the mob again. Mobs TH level is 6

Scenario 4:
A thief hits a mob but does not have TH gear on. Mobs TH level is 3
The thief gets a TH proc. Mobs TH level is 4
The thief gets a second TH proc. Mobs TH level is 5
The thief then equips TH gear and hits the mob again. Mobs TH level is 6

Scenario 5:
A thief hits a mob with TH gear on. Mobs TH level is 6
The thief gets a TH proc. Mobs TH level is 7
The thief gets a second TH proc. Mobs TH level is now 8.

As you can see, in scenario 3 a proc was wasted and in scenario 4 TWO TH procs were wasted. Furthermore while no TH procs were wasted in scenario 2 there was potential for wasted procs to happen. In scenario's 1 and 5 there was no wasted potential, and all procs had the maximum effectiveness. This is because the highest level of treasure hunter will always overwrite the lower level, so if your gear is more powerful than the current level the new level is equal to that of your gear. Any procs which raise TH to a level equal to or less than that of your gear will be wasted the moment you equip that gear because your gear is stronger and will overwrite them, but if you start with your gear they will raise the TH higher than you would get by equipping your gear alone.

The best way to apply TH is to equip your full gear for the first hit and then forget about it the rest of the fight. Once you get the first hit in with your gear the level will never diminish so you don't need to use it anymore and can use real gear and weapons. Use TH gear for your first attack and you're fine. It's a simple concept, and something we've wanted to be able to prove for a long time now.

Edited, Dec 16th 2010 8:53pm by Melphina
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#23 Dec 17 2010 at 4:30 PM Rating: Good
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Ok, I understand. My confusion came from this quote in the same post I replied from.

Quote:
If a naked level 90 thief hits a mob and procs the treasure hunter bonus it will raise it to level 4


Didn't notice the hits + procs. So initial proc of TH3 is TH level 3 on the mob. Got it.
#24 Dec 18 2010 at 6:07 AM Rating: Decent
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I have a quick scenario-esque question.

Scenario 1:
-THF90 with TH6 (AA/TK/AF3+2) does some action on the mob to be on the hate list, this is initially TH6 (no additional
effect animation)
-The same THF takes off AA, TK, and AF3+2 immediately and smacks the mob to get the additional effect. What treasure hunter level will this be?

Scenario 2:
-First THF (THF90 with TH6 (AA/TK/AF3+2)) does some action on the mob to be on the hate list, this is initially TH6 (no additional effect animation)

-A different THF, we'll say this new THF is THF89 with zero TH+ items (TH2 onry) smacks the mob to get the additional effect. What treasure hunter level will this be? Assuming the first THF warped out and logged off instantly after the initial action.

Theoretically, both should be TH7 right?

I guess I should test this on my own. D:
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#25 Dec 19 2010 at 7:53 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Theoretically, both should be TH7 right?


Correct. Both scenario's would result in Th 7.
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