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AGI > "TP dealt reduction" testingFollow

#1 Dec 07 2010 at 2:05 PM Rating: Excellent
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After reading this excerpt from the update details:

"The amount of TP a character deals to the target will now decrease proportionate to his or her AGI."

I began doing some limited, brief testing of how this change works. I used a Relic Dagger (DMG:1, Delay 999) in order to have the largest amount of TP per hit to work with, in order to help with math.

According to the standard TP formula, my TP per hit is 17.9, meaning the target will get 20.9 without any subtle blow (before the update, that is).


Base AGI: 80 (85THF/42BST) >> Charm used to do a TP check via <pettp> command.
Target: Sylvestre in Buburimu Peninsula.


My attack gave me 17 tp, as expected. An immediate charm and /echo <pettp> shows the Mandragora with only 11 tp instead of the expected 20, which shocked me. I equipped some limited AGI gear in order to see if the effect would grow -- at 100 AGI the Mandragora was getting 10 tp instead of 20.

According to wiki, subtle blow caps at 50%, so my next step was to test if this new adjustment was converting AGI into a hidden Subtle Blow effect. I grabbed 10 Subtle Blow in gear that would not alter the AGI gear I had on as well, and went to test.

With the additional 10 Subtle Blow, the Mandragora only recieved 9 tp from an attack that should be giving it 20.

Unfortunately, I am unable to continue this test with a Job that has native Subtle Blow traits to see if the two "abilities" stack to give a 75% reduction in TP given, but my limited testing seems to suggest that the two effects will indeed reduce the expected TP per hit below the previous 50% limit. My guess is that the AGI portion reduces the base TP given, and subtle blow takes over from there.

Is there somebody who can confirm this/check my math to make sure I'm not missing something? Thanks in advance!
#2 Dec 07 2010 at 10:41 PM Rating: Good
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That is just sick. Especially that it stacks. I really appreciate tests like these. Going to really make a big difference and open up new potential for solo/low-man.

Looking at what you wrote, my guess is that subtle blow is calculated first, or otherwise is based off of the unadjusted TP/hit the mob should be gaining from you. 10% of 20.9 being 2.09, likely flooring to 2.0. And that was the reduction you got after adding it; your 11 TP/hit given changed to 9 after equipping the subtle blow.


Looking at your two data points though, 80AGI:11(.?)TP & 100AGI:10(.?)TP, it looks hard to think of an exact model for the formula. But I'm sure it can't be too hard to figure out.

Yay THF tanking /(^^)/. So much eva now nothin can hit us. And ****, with the right amount of AGI and subtle blow and a pennance cycle (and isn't there a BLU tp-degenerating ability too?), I wonder to what depths mob control could be stretched.
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#3 Dec 08 2010 at 2:51 AM Rating: Decent
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I am not a THF and did not do any objective test.

But as a BLU, I go to learn blue magic on mob with HP less than 25% using Dia. I observed that I need to use Dia more times for the mob to use TP move.
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#4 Dec 08 2010 at 4:03 AM Rating: Good
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20 to 9 means you break the 50% from Subtle Blow Traits. That's really cool :D
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#5 Dec 08 2010 at 4:44 AM Rating: Decent
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Monk85/nin41,

Weapon:
Trainee Needle:
TP/hit: 5.4
Mob TP/hit: 8.4

Subtle Blow Trait: -20%

8.4 * 0.8 = 6.7 TP/hit

Galka MNK85/NIN41:
Base AGI: 66

10 hits to a monster in sauromugue champaign, then Maiden's Virelai'd by a brd; Utsusemi kept up to ensure the monster couldn't hit me. No other buffs, not even signet, unless stated. Initial test Naked, except for the dagger:

Pre-AGI buff: 67% TP
Previous Subtle Blow CAP: 42%

Post buff result: 45%

AGI+51 (Total 117):
10 hits = 33%

AGI+4 (total 70) SB+24 (44%)
10 hits = 30%

44% SB before AGI would have given 47% TP.

AGI+51 (total 117) SB+20 (40%)
10 hits = 25%

INTERESTING NOTE:

AGI+36 (Total 102) SB+24 (44%)
10 hits = 23% TP

BUT THERE IS STILL A CAP

AGI+77~70 (double SV AGI etudes; total 143~134) SB+24 (44%)
10 hits = 23%

I'd guess that there is an overall cap of 75% tp/hit reduction between AGI and SB, but ****, AGI gives a ******* monstrous amount of TP redux...
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#6 Dec 08 2010 at 11:48 AM Rating: Good
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I'm going to do more testing with this, but it's looking like people are capping the AGI section of the formula with ~100AGI, I didn't notice a change myself going beyond that value.

I have to say this is pretty incredible so far. With 2 Evasion Kila +1s, I am sitting at 96 AGI without counting any other gear as Thief.

Time to go use jobs with lower AGI in the same testing and see if a few more data points will help figure this out!
#7 Dec 08 2010 at 12:59 PM Rating: Good
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What I am curious about is, is it just your agi, or is it mob agi vs your agi. The tests I have seen have all been against very low level mobs.

A simple test would be:
10 hits vs pansy mob>charm>check tp (not have to worry about if it was 17 or 17.2 etc with 10 hit)
10 hits vs say, lv 70+ mob>Charm>check tp

Done in the same gear would 100% show if mob agi has anything to do with it or not.

As an aside, if it is based on mob agi, once we determine the formula we could have a VERY simple test to determine mob agi for all kinds of things. We could get down to nuts and bolts for crit builds via dex.

Edited, Dec 8th 2010 2:03pm by Banalaty
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#8 Dec 08 2010 at 1:11 PM Rating: Good
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Banalaty wrote:
As an aside, if it is based on mob agi, once we determine the formula we could have a VERY simple test to determine mob agi for all kinds of things. We could get down to nuts and bolts for crit builds via dex.

I actually did not even consider this, that's pretty good thinking.

I will be running a few tests on higher level monsters (going to keep with mandragoras, but a higher level variety, like ones in Boyahda), and use the same 80 / 100 AGI I had previously. This should show quickly whether the target-AGI has any bearing on the reduction.
#9 Dec 09 2010 at 3:19 AM Rating: Good
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Banalty wrote:
As an aside, if it is based on mob agi, once we determine the formula we could have a VERY simple test to determine mob agi for all kinds of things. We could get down to nuts and bolts for crit builds via dex.
So we could use this to determine exactly how much dex we'd need to cap dDex crit in various situations.. something only for the hardcore players to keep in their knowledge banks, but could be very useful information indeed ^^

So right, -TP from subtle blow caps at 50%; -TP from AGI caps at 50%; compounds together for total reduction of -75% TP. As for the formula, looking at all those numbers, the AGI:-TP relation doesn't seem simple and linear at first glance.
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#10 Dec 12 2010 at 1:03 AM Rating: Decent
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Banalaty wrote:


As an aside, if it is based on mob agi, once we determine the formula we could have a VERY simple test to determine mob agi for all kinds of things. We could get down to nuts and bolts for crit builds via dex.



Why would anyone bother with crit builds post RR?
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I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#11 Dec 12 2010 at 9:44 AM Rating: Good
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There are still 2 more level updates and 0 more abyssea expansions. I imagine there is a SLIGHT chance we could get some content outside of abyssea in the next 6 months.

Even if there isnt, its still good trivia information. Info is info and ill take all of it I can get in a game as vague and intentionally 'secretive' as FFXI.
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#12 Dec 13 2010 at 10:54 PM Rating: Good
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Yeah, I spread just a lil bit of misinformation due to misinformation I heard when I came back. I said something about the crit rate cap being 50%. That was something I misheard. 'Course as some of you know, I'm sure, the Crit Dmg+ Cap is 50%. Meanwhile the Crit Rate Cap is in all probability nonexistent, or otherwise maybe 95%.

Even if the Crit Rate Cap was 50%, RR + AF3+2 legs + Base crit + merits would put you at 43% crit. Still room for 7% more, and with +50Dex from RR, I'm sure that 7% would be made up pretty easily by adding more dex, if the +50Dex didn't cap dDex already. But that's neither here nor there, since there is no crit cap.

So with a proper build capping dDex, you could get 58% crit rate with RR and AF3 legs. 88% crit rate if you add Dark Depths? Not even sure if there's any other worthwhile equip to bring 88% upwards, but that is still a ridiculous number.
I've heard ridiculous things I've been hearing like Drk's switching to swords so they can exploit crit dmg from vorpal blade, crit is so powerful now. This is actually something that SE should probably scale down.

Edited, Dec 14th 2010 4:55am by Shamaya
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