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THF TH after update > melee in thf knifeFollow

#1 Dec 07 2010 at 12:46 AM Rating: Good
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Gonna make it short, its late.

With no TH items, the message after a melee reads:
"Additional effect: The [mob name]'s Treasure Hunter effectiveness increases to 3."

With either AF2 gloves or THF knife, the number starts off at 4.
With both AF2 gloves and THF knife, the number starts off at 5.

With each consecutive hit after the first proc it is raised by exactly 1. At first I thought "great we won't have to melee in thf knife or gloves" but honestly if the starting number is determined by your gear, you will definitely have to melee in ****** gear until the initial proc.


Thanks SE, this is what the thf community has been asking for!!! amirite guys!?
#2 Dec 07 2010 at 12:50 AM Rating: Decent
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Pretty much ends the ago old debate of TH4 vs TH2+2.

The results from the procs deffititly put armlets and knife as equal in effect to the traits.

Going to have definite answers to so many questions real soon.

Can we really take them off hands and knife after first hit and the numbers go 5,6,7, or will it be 3,4,5?
Will 2 thief fighting same mob mean both can cause number to increase?



Edited, Dec 7th 2010 2:15am by Everydamnnameistaken
#3 Dec 07 2010 at 1:19 AM Rating: Good
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Perhaps kinda lame.

In an event like Dynamis though, you wouldn't ever take off TH4 anyway if mobs were dying as fast as they should be. Didn't want to risk a mob or stone dying without maxed TH. So an event where mobs die incredibly fast and you want drops, such as that, will be unchanged.

For longer fights though, I do admit that most of my LS's and pickups let me engage the mob with TH4 and take it off (or rather they didn't complain about it), only to put it on at the last few % just in case. Meanwhile, I'm sure many of us have had to deal w/ LS's that forced you to melee in TH4 full-time for even long fights.

So for long HNM'ey fights, some of us will now feel relief. Whereas others of us (perhaps the majority) will feel kinda disgusted unless max TH can be procced rather quickly (try using SA/TA to raise proc chance?).

I suppose it's those middle-length fights, maybe something like 30seconds to 1minute+, that will hurt most. In those fights pre-update (think salvage farms), most of us had to keep TK on full time, but could take off the gloves after engaging. Probably won't be able to do that now.
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#4 Dec 07 2010 at 1:23 AM Rating: Good
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Also, I do feel that TH trait and TH+1 were quite different pre-update. We've had large enough sample sizes (within the thousands) to establish that it was vastly more probable that they were not equivalent.

I simply feel that they changed the TH mechanic in this update. And as someone said in another thread, it is possible that each increase in TH level offers smaller gains than the last.
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#5 Dec 07 2010 at 1:52 AM Rating: Good
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I've reached 90 sooner today (dw pwns~) and i had time to do some tests on th.

Basically what Xaetica noticed is correct. One thing i've noticed tho: we have to melee in full th gear to reach higher numbers. Normal tp set th, and an actual th set, are exclusive, the highest will stay active. I concluded this after following happening:

If we melee with dps set, TH will be enhanced to 4 (lv90). If we melee some more, it will be enhanced to 5. (2 boosts was the highest i've seen - if this is not the limit reaching a 3rd boost can be quite hard)
Now if at the same mob we swap to full th gear we will get it to 7 (won't take long to happen). Meleeing/sataing some more with th gear can make it get to 8.

So the gear was negating the effect of the previous boosts and allowing me to boost th to higher grounds yet again.

Yeah...this doesn't sound so awesome to me now, not when i need to stay with th gear full time.


Everydamnnameistaken wrote:
Can we really take them off hands and knife after first hit and the numbers go 5,6,7, or will it be 3,4,5?

If i came back to dps set after reaching a higher value of th, th level won't return to a lower value. At least i never had it happen.

Still got a taboo question left to answer: will we loose th if we die? we can finally answer this for sure. And i can't wait to know the answer~ I'm too tired to test it right now and my bed is calling me.

Edited, Dec 7th 2010 2:53am by Laphine
#6 Dec 07 2010 at 2:13 AM Rating: Good
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This also gives us a chance to find out if Atma of Dread stacks with THF TH.
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#7 Dec 07 2010 at 2:18 AM Rating: Good
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Those are interesting observations, laphine.

Concerning some of the mechanics; We had answers to things like "death" before; it wouldn't be removed. I don't suspect they've changed any of the other ways it works. For any future testing that might ever be done tho, you said it right; the fact that we can now see it take place in the log can make things a lot easier.
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#8 Dec 07 2010 at 2:40 AM Rating: Decent
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Someone on BG tested TH atma. It does stack with TH. Very ***. Was planning on just telling people I had TH atma when I really had RR. Can't do that now because they will all be expecting first proc to be an 8.

TH8... wouldn't that be something insane like +400% to drop rate?
#9 Dec 07 2010 at 2:42 AM Rating: Good
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Laphine wrote:
If we melee with dps set, TH will be enhanced to 4 (lv90). If we melee some more, it will be enhanced to 5. (2 boosts was the highest i've seen - if this is not the limit reaching a 3rd boost can be quite hard)
Now if at the same mob we swap to full th gear we will get it to 7 (won't take long to happen). Meleeing/sataing some more with th gear can make it get to 8.

I can personally vouch that shooting something in full TH+ works to establish the minimum, and that you don't have to keep it on until the first increase. I have my relic gloves in my /ra set so it's just in for that part, but any mob that I've shot will proc to +4 first instead of +3 (this was before I hit 90, so TH2 base) even though I don't have the armlets on anymore by the time I get the increase.

So we know for certain that you don't have to keep it on once you've hit it once, if it happens prior to the first increase in TH. From what you're describing, it sounds like it might work even if you equip your gear after the first proc. You engage normally, starting with +3. You get a proc, go to +4. You equip the armlets, invisibly go to +5, then get a proc and go to +6. Assuming that's the case, you still only have to hit it once with your +th gear on, and it matches the way SE described it.
#10 Dec 07 2010 at 2:46 AM Rating: Decent
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Everydamnnameistaken wrote:
Pretty much ends the ago old debate of TH4 vs TH2+2.

The results from the procs deffititly put armlets and knife as equal in effect to the traits.

Going to have definite answers to so many questions real soon.

Can we really take them off hands and knife after first hit and the numbers go 5,6,7, or will it be 3,4,5?
Will 2 thief fighting same mob mean both can cause number to increase?



Edited, Dec 7th 2010 2:15am by Everydamnnameistaken

It doesn't end the debate on TH4 vs TH2+2 at all. It could just as easily be shown that way in the log for convenience, and still have them be very different in the actual implementation. Just because TH2+1 and TH3 would both show up the same in the message doesn't mean they're actually accomplishing the same thing.
#11 Dec 07 2010 at 5:50 AM Rating: Default
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Xaetica wrote:


With each consecutive hit after the first proc it is raised by exactly 1. At first I thought "great we won't have to melee in thf knife or gloves" but honestly if the starting number is determined by your gear, you will definitely have to melee in sh*tty gear until the initial proc.


The starting number is determined by the level of TH that is on the mob.

Does anyone know if multiple THFs can raise the TH value faster?
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I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#12 Dec 07 2010 at 6:12 AM Rating: Decent
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Lobivopis wrote:
Xaetica wrote:


With each consecutive hit after the first proc it is raised by exactly 1. At first I thought "great we won't have to melee in thf knife or gloves" but honestly if the starting number is determined by your gear, you will definitely have to melee in sh*tty gear until the initial proc.


The starting number is determined by the level of TH that is on the mob.

Does anyone know if multiple THFs can raise the TH value faster?


It might be possible. I saw a few occurances of this in dynamis tonight. Ie I raised it to 5 and another THF raised it to 6. IS possible log displaying incorrectly but it happend a few times. Would need to test it to be sure.
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#13 Dec 07 2010 at 6:59 AM Rating: Good
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Figured I should let you guys know, I just had TH+ proc in a WS, and it -does not- state that it procs. I'm farming rare/ex **** for my job emotes on my 45 thf, smack a yagudo theologist, Cyclone, and then a couple hits later, I get a message stating that my TH rises to level 4. Not shocking since add'd effects can and do proc in WS normally, though. I can post screen shots if you guys want me to/
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#14 Dec 07 2010 at 7:54 AM Rating: Good
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It'll be interesting to see what the max level ends up capping out at and if multiple thieves can both raise treasure hunter together. I won't get a chance to play until tonight but I'm going to reserve judgment on my opinion until more info is collected. I also feel that before the update TH 2 +2 was not the same as the concept of TH4, but I want to see what kind of results we end up getting on mobs that matter with X level of TH versus Y amount. Now that we'll be level 90 old HMN's will be crazily easy so I'll be interested in seeing what kind of drops people end up getting from higher tier values versus those they've been accustomed to. The version update just happened so we'll see how this changes opinions after getting to experience it for a while.
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#15 Dec 07 2010 at 8:06 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Someone on BG tested TH atma. It does stack with TH. Very ***. Was planning on just telling people I had TH atma when I really had RR. Can't do that now because they will all be expecting first proc to be an 8.


I'd still go with RR for your other atma which is just as well as anyone can clearly tell when you have it on. It's the other one I was planning on lying about. :P It's a lot harder to tell if you have stout arm.
#16 Dec 07 2010 at 9:48 AM Rating: Good
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Hripthe wrote:
I can personally vouch that shooting something in full TH+ works to establish the minimum, and that you don't have to keep it on until the first increase. I have my relic gloves in my /ra set so it's just in for that part, but any mob that I've shot will proc to +4 first instead of +3 (this was before I hit 90, so TH2 base) even though I don't have the armlets on anymore by the time I get the increase.


I never got a boost after a TH+ ranged attack, not even once. I thought this was because TH6 from ranged was higher than TH3 with usual tp set (like other debuffs work). Maybe i was unlucky then and if others start getting these results i suppose there is hope for us after all lol.

Hripthe wrote:
So we know for certain that you don't have to keep it on once you've hit it once, if it happens prior to the first increase in TH. From what you're describing, it sounds like it might work even if you equip your gear after the first proc. You engage normally, starting with +3. You get a proc, go to +4. You equip the armlets, invisibly go to +5, then get a proc and go to +6. Assuming that's the case, you still only have to hit it once with your +th gear on, and it matches the way SE described it.


Following your example this is how it happened to me: You engage normally, starting with +3. You get a proc, go to +4. You equip the armlets, then go to +5 and +6. The problem was that to reach +5 and +6 we need to melee with armlets the whole time. If we could ranged attack will full TH+ gear, placing a base of 6 at a mob, it would be much better if we could boost it to 7 and 8 with dps tp gear.
#17 Dec 07 2010 at 12:51 PM Rating: Good
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Lady Jinte wrote:
Figured I should let you guys know, I just had TH+ proc in a WS, and it -does not- state that it procs. I'm farming rare/ex sh*t for my job emotes on my 45 thf, smack a yagudo theologist, Cyclone, and then a couple hits later, I get a message stating that my TH rises to level 4. Not shocking since add'd effects can and do proc in WS normally, though. I can post screen shots if you guys want me to/

Oh, that could make sense of what I was seeing last night. Every now and then I'd get a proc that skipped one, and I couldn't figure out why, but it was always after I'd WSed at least once.
#18 Dec 07 2010 at 1:00 PM Rating: Decent
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Hripthe wrote:
Lady Jinte wrote:
Figured I should let you guys know, I just had TH+ proc in a WS, and it -does not- state that it procs. I'm farming rare/ex sh*t for my job emotes on my 45 thf, smack a yagudo theologist, Cyclone, and then a couple hits later, I get a message stating that my TH rises to level 4. Not shocking since add'd effects can and do proc in WS normally, though. I can post screen shots if you guys want me to/

Oh, that could make sense of what I was seeing last night. Every now and then I'd get a proc that skipped one, and I couldn't figure out why, but it was always after I'd WSed at least once.


It is also possible that I can proc twice on a triple attack but doesn't show both in the log. I would occasionally proc a 6 instead of a 5 on the first hit and I noticed that each time was a multi attack.
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#19 Dec 07 2010 at 4:30 PM Rating: Default
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From now on zerging is going to mean sacrificing drop rate.
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I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#20 Dec 07 2010 at 4:33 PM Rating: Default
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SKSmokes wrote:
Quote:
Someone on BG tested TH atma. It does stack with TH. Very ***. Was planning on just telling people I had TH atma when I really had RR. Can't do that now because they will all be expecting first proc to be an 8.


I'd still go with RR for your other atma which is just as well as anyone can clearly tell when you have it on. It's the other one I was planning on lying about. :P It's a lot harder to tell if you have stout arm.


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THFs get to be better TH whores and they can't pretend to be DD's anymore. Everyone wins!




Edited, Dec 7th 2010 6:34pm by Lobivopis
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Adjust the resolution of menus.
The main screen resolution for "FINAL FANTASY XI" is dependent on the "Overlay Graphics Resolution" setting.
If the Overlay Graphics Resolution is set higher than the Menu Resolution, menus will be automatically resized.


I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#21 Dec 07 2010 at 7:10 PM Rating: Good
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Lobivopis wrote:
From now on zerging is going to mean sacrificing drop rate.

That's been true since Scars came out, anyway. For tier1 NMs I already have to hold off damage even in a 4-person party to avoid killing it before we can finish trying to proc yellow !!'s.

Edited, Dec 7th 2010 7:12pm by Hripthe
#22 Dec 07 2010 at 8:31 PM Rating: Good
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THF TH after update > melee in thf knife

THFs get to be better TH whores and they can't pretend to be DD's anymore. Everyone wins!


Actually it's quite the opposite. This update is a blessing IMO. I've gotten a chance to test this out a bit and what I've discovered is favorable.

Quote:

Can we really take them off hands and knife after first hit


The answer to this is a resounding YES. My test was basic but effective.

NOTE: I tested this after logging in for the first time at level 85. I do not have treasure hunter 3 yet so my base level with no items is TH2 and I have TH4 with armlets and TK. I do not yet own my af3 feet.

The Test: I ran out to Misereaux Coast without any TH gear and sneak attacked a few megalobugards and recieved the text message "The Megalobugard's Treasure Hunter effect raises to level 3". Afterwards I equipped my assassin's armlets and mugged a megalobugard then UNEQUIPPED my assassin's armlets shot him with a sleep bolt and swapped into my homam hands and sneak attacked him. The resulting message was "The Megalobugard's Treasure Hunter effect raises to level 4". For the final test I equipped my thief knife (offhand) and my AA mainhand and shot a megalobugard with a sleep bolt and then unequipped everything and performed a sneak attack naked. The message read "The Megalobugard's Treasure Hunter effect raises to level 5". In both tests I did not receive a treasure hunter message upon making first contact and the only actions I performed were either regular melee or a ranged attack to sleep the beast. The first Treasure hunter message I got included every TH item I used up to that point at a point in time where I had NO treasure hunter equipment active.

CONCLUSION: The evidence is 100% that upon hitting a mob the highest level of treasure is applied immediately (including weapon/armor) and once that level is applied it will not diminish even if you remove your TH + armor and thief's knife. In other words we only need to equip the thief's knife at the very start of a NM battle for the very first hit and can then swap to a USEFUL offhand dagger and ignore TH armor the rest of the fight.

There is no need to fulltime the TK in an NM fight. The only events where you would still want to fulltime the TK are events where you would be doing so anyway (dynamis and salvage), but there are only a few select examples where scrub mobs have important drops (such as farming water in sky to pop Olla Grande), and aside from that it's not a big deal. I've raised my treasure hunter effectiveness to level 5 three times on a megalobugard and gotten nothing at all (they always were stingy) so the overall use still lies on Nms. And we only need the TK for a split second for it to serve its purpose, so fulltiming it is unnecessary. That knowledge is a **** blessing if I ever knew of one.

Edited, Dec 7th 2010 9:45pm by Melphina
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#23 Dec 07 2010 at 9:17 PM Rating: Good
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Yeah, that matches the results I posted earlier. The question that still remains is whether you can:

1) Equip nothing to start the fight
2) Get a TH increase from meleeing
3) Equip TH+ gear
4) Hit the mob once then remove TH+ gear
5) Get another TH increase from meleeing that takes both the TH+ gear and the first increase into account.

If that works, we could either start the fight with TH+ gear, equip it briefly sometime in the middle, or just put it on at the end and it would work equally well each way (which is what we've all assumed on here for awhile, but hadn't been able to conclusively prove). I haven't been able to test it yet because I haven't fought anything that stays alive long enough to get more than one proc from meleeing.
#24 Dec 07 2010 at 9:32 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
Yeah, that matches the results I posted earlier. The question that still remains is whether you can:

1) Equip nothing to start the fight
2) Get a TH increase from meleeing
3) Equip TH+ gear
4) Hit the mob once then remove TH+ gear
5) Get another TH increase from meleeing that takes both the TH+ gear and the first increase into account.

If that works, we could either start the fight with TH+ gear, equip it briefly sometime in the middle, or just put it on at the end and it would work equally well each way (which is what we've all assumed on here for awhile, but hadn't been able to conclusively prove). I haven't been able to test it yet because I haven't fought anything that stays alive long enough to get more than one proc from meleeing.


You CAN!!! I just tested it ... again (somehow screwed it up the first time.... dunno wtf i did)

I engaged a mob naked and did not get a TH proc in the chatlog. After that I equipped my Thief's Knife and Assassin's Armlets for one attack round then took them off again and continued to melee (also without a chatlog message). Since my H2H skill is low I got a chance to witness a naturally occurring proc and started at level 5!! That means that the TK and AA were included even though I had them on for only one round mid fight. Treasure hunter items can be applied at any time during the battle, and the moment they are applied they stay applied until the mob either goes red or dies.

Edited, Dec 8th 2010 12:32am by Melphina
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#25 Dec 07 2010 at 10:48 PM Rating: Good
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Well, we don't know that TH after the first strike doesn't have an effect.

You engage naked, you apply TH2

You proc melee TH+, goes to TH3

If you did fists + AA, the TH you would apply at that point would be 3.

So we *don't* know with just that whether the AA did nothing, or just did it to 3.

What we would need to see to know that is

1) Engage naked.
2) Proc TH+ for TH3 total.
3) Put on *two* pieces of TH+ gear for TH4.
4) wait for next TH+ proc, if it's 4, it did nothing, if it's 5, it works.

(obviously it's best to start the fight with all your TH on so you don't waste procs, but it could be important to know whether you can fix your mistake after you've already taken the first action with non-max TH.)


Edited, Dec 7th 2010 11:50pm by LafingCat
#26 Dec 07 2010 at 11:08 PM Rating: Good
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In fact, I just did this.

I engaged with no TH gear at on, hit the mob.

Then I put on TK + AA. First TH proc was TH5.

So yes. Not starting a fight with TH on can waste procs, but it doesn't fix the mobs base value at TH2(3).

Edited, Dec 8th 2010 12:10am by LafingCat
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