Forum Settings
       
Reply To Thread

Delay and TPFollow

#1 Oct 04 2010 at 12:01 PM Rating: Good
Scholar
*
57 posts
With all the new sources of dual wield reduction, I am finding myself at an impasse with which route to take.

Raiders' Tossy Returning Throwing Thing (5%)
Suppanomimi (5%)
Auric Dagger (5%)
/Nin pre-90 (15%)
/Nin post-90 (25%)


However with Mandau / Auric @ 25% DW I need ~11 stp during TP to hit 100 in 20 hits.
This is covered by tar harness, rajas, and brutal.

If we add the 90 cap in or raiders, things like goading belt become more appealing because that extra STP is needed to maintain a 20 hit. However this takes away haste, precious haste, so it forces us to use carbonara.

The only time I can see a justification for Raiders' is /war. Allowing me to the same 25% I am using now. (Assuming thf doesn't get natural 2 in the next update). /Dnc is in the same boat of having DW 2, already forcing the 11 stp.

-Thoughts?-
____________________________
http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/profile.xml?193950
NEW PROFILE -YaY-
#2 Oct 04 2010 at 1:12 PM Rating: Good
***
3,775 posts
Or you could just use a theoretical 21 hit build? Thief tp building is highly erratic and I almost never weaponskill right at 100%. Often I weaponskill at 110-125% just because triple attack and server lag happen which delay my recation (ever see a flurry of 8-12 swings in a row that raises tp by 30-50 in a split second... thats usually server lag), or because I'm casting utsusemi or getting hit and I get tp from taking damage, or because I'm thf/war and double attack, or because I need to wait for a cure, or because trick attack is 5-10 seconds away and I really want to throw the weaponskill onto my tank (I sometimes weaponskill at 170-180% or higher in this case because the fight calls for someone else holding hate and TA WSing the tank matters), or because I want to sneak attack a weaponskill and need to move a bit for positioning, or because... you get the idea.

Long story short, if you choose to NOT use the thief boomy just because of sTP tiers then you should reevaluate your tp priorities. Oh and btw, dual wield +5 makes you swing more often. You're going to be getting more tp per hour with it on, not less. More swings == more tp + more damage == good. We love our thief boomy; it's the best ranged accessory we can use. I would however choose to NOT use the rang if I think I can spam bolts (which admittedly is almost always nowadays).

Edited, Oct 5th 2010 1:06am by Melphina
____________________________
[ffxisig]56619[/ffxisig]

There are 10 kinds of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.
#3 Oct 04 2010 at 2:25 PM Rating: Good
Scholar
*
57 posts
With haste and 1 march you actually TP slower with the raider's because of the additional time it takes to make the additional attack round to make 100 tp.

(Assuming 25% gear haste 90% acc 5% double attack and 10% triple attack.)
(Haven't done any figuring for /war's double attack increase.)

Furthermore you lose 6 attack 3 acc on tp and 3 attack 5% overall ws damage on the ws's.

I just don't see the trade off being better considering it takes longer, and giving up that much. You can pull with darts just fine.

Any damage you take from getting hit is going to favor the store tp more than the faster hits. Example. If it took 2 rounds for the stp and 3 for the dw. 2*2.3 vs 3*2.1

You're argument about waiting is also somewhat contradictory. If you end up getting more tp before you weaponskill because you are attacking too many times, why would you not want to reduce the number of swings, to make sure that each swing has a tiny bit more acc, does a bit more damage, and your overall weaponskill damage has increased by 5%, without feeding the mob extra tp.

Store tp also helps situations where you cant full time melee by alot.

There are far far too many benefits for what may be slightly more damage tp round (depending if the extra swings > 5% ws damage), and slightly faster if you have more than 1 march.

Edited, Oct 4th 2010 4:25pm by Mirax
____________________________
http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/profile.xml?193950
NEW PROFILE -YaY-
#4 Oct 04 2010 at 2:28 PM Rating: Good
***
1,064 posts
Mistress Melphina wrote:
The only time I would ever choose to NOT use the rang would be when acid bolts mattered. Other than that the raider's rang is the number 1 ammo slot for tp gain, period.


I have acutally been giving this a lot of thought lately. I've always had a pretty solid RACC build and this update has only given us better options. Although I also have full marksmanship merits.

I have not had a situation yet in abyssea where I couldn't consistantly land acid/bloody bolts (eating pizza/meat) outside of mobs that are wind/dark resistant.

We're talking everything from leveled up exp mobs to NM's like Briarues. I wonder if maybe most of us just wrote them off because merit mobs were all wind resistant for eternity. As my RACC build gets more powerful, I find myself not wanting to take off my Ziska's for Bomlet/Core and have been seriously questioning other ranged options' worth.

Edited, Oct 4th 2010 4:32pm by ThiefKiller
____________________________
Nebo
THF99/BRD99
#5 Oct 04 2010 at 3:53 PM Rating: Good
***
3,775 posts
Quote:
We're talking everything from leveled up exp mobs to NM's like Briarues. I wonder if maybe most of us just wrote them off because merit mobs were all wind resistant for eternity. As my RACC build gets more powerful, I find myself not wanting to take off my Ziska's for Bomlet/Core and have been seriously questioning other ranged options' worth.


I agree and I added that in there for a reason. Acid's 12.5% defense down has always been a big deal and I've been shooting everything in abyssea with bolts. I haven't tried to get the thief rang for this reason (we've seen a few new mobs that have overwritable defense up moves to boot). Most abyssean mobs are more defensive than they are evasive to me and I can use red curry buns almost everywhere I go. But if I'm subbing /nin I really need more attack and acids are a huge help. When I /war... night to day!! I was farming Percy for head seals thf/nin yesterday and with acid bolt + red curry my stacked weaponskills were doing approximately 1200-1300. I soon realized /nin sucked here after seeing tremors and silencega etc spammed so I came back thf/war. Instead of the 1300 ish* damage weaponskills I was hitting percy for 2K+ TA evisc and TA DE's once I used zerk. Instead of hitting the baby worms for ~~~ 1500 damage I shot upwards to the 2500 range. I didn't realize the worms had such pathetic int and MAB at first but when I /war it was a huge boost. That's slightly off topic but my point is that my thief is really limited by her low attack rating whereas my acc and r acc is good 90% of the time even with meat. Acid bolts proc on almost everything in abyssea and that's a bigger boost than rang bomblet or core. I've even skipped out on the stone because of it. I trust my marksmanship and I never take it off nowadays because birds are a thing of the past.

Also @ Mirax, I agree the boomerang will calculate to a 21 hit round, but I was trying to emphasize that calculating X hit builds for thief doesn't work like it does for 2 handers. There are too many things to consider about thief tp build for me to place faith in a model

--much lower tp per hit to start with vs 2 handers (but many more hits)
--multi hit ws will return 8-16 tp in every interval dependant on multi procs and missed swings/offhand swing
--we swing by 2 dagger rounds
--getting hit adds tp
--both hands can triple and double attack

We've discussed X hit builds by individual swings to 100%, rounds to 100%, builds involving the tp/hr model, and more. There just isn't any way to be certain because too much is happening. This is one instance where I don't believe what you get on paper is what you will see in practice and I err on the side of what I KNOW works. Haste and dual wield increase damage in a way I can easily quantify whereas Stp increases tp gain in a way that's very difficult to quantify. Thief burn DD is heavily DoT oriented and my damage skew is almost always approximately 35% weaponskill to 65% DoT. Because of this I err on the safe side with the sure fire thing .... more speed is always good. I will add Stp to my builds if they come on pieces I like already, but I wouldn't trust NOT using the thf rang just because of sTP issues. The increased speed and DoT is something I have come to rely upon, so if I wasn't so set in my ways of spamming bolts I would use the rang in lieu of the alternatives.


Edited, Oct 5th 2010 11:04pm by Melphina
____________________________
[ffxisig]56619[/ffxisig]

There are 10 kinds of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.
#6 Oct 04 2010 at 5:29 PM Rating: Good
Scholar
*
57 posts
Well I think we can all agree that bolt spamming is awesome!.
____________________________
http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/profile.xml?193950
NEW PROFILE -YaY-
#7 Oct 04 2010 at 6:12 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
**
485 posts
Mirax wrote:
Raiders' Tossy Returning Throwing Thing (5%)

This was confirmed at 5%? Can we have some data please?
#8 Oct 04 2010 at 10:36 PM Rating: Decent
Avatar
***
1,713 posts
Acids have come back strong since abyssea. The main reason to not use is some exp in abyssea i guess, where mobs die to fast for it to matter. However, on thf i tend to only do the exp for the beginning light gathering, then go off and kill stuff while the main group gets more time/gold boxes.
____________________________
-LordTrey
99 THF, COR, DRK, BLM, WHM, DNC
Twashtar (90)
Leviathan
#9 Oct 05 2010 at 2:56 AM Rating: Decent
Thief's Knife
*****
15,049 posts
Mirax wrote:
With all the new sources of dual wield reduction, I am finding myself at an impasse with which route to take.

Raiders' Tossy Returning Throwing Thing (5%)
Suppanomimi (5%)
Auric Dagger (5%)
/Nin pre-90 (15%)
/Nin post-90 (25%)


However with Mandau / Auric @ 25% DW I need ~11 stp during TP to hit 100 in 20 hits.
This is covered by tar harness, rajas, and brutal.

If we add the 90 cap in or raiders, things like goading belt become more appealing because that extra STP is needed to maintain a 20 hit. However this takes away haste, precious haste, so it forces us to use carbonara.

The only time I can see a justification for Raiders' is /war. Allowing me to the same 25% I am using now. (Assuming thf doesn't get natural 2 in the next update). /Dnc is in the same boat of having DW 2, already forcing the 11 stp.

-Thoughts?-


If you have Mandau an x-hit build is pointless because you'll be waiting on timers anyway. Especially in Abyssea where furtherance, strong arm and voracious violet = 2200 damage mercy strokes as your baseline WS damage.



Edited, Oct 5th 2010 6:05am by Lobivopis
____________________________
Final Fantasy XI 12-14-11 Update wrote:
Adjust the resolution of menus.
The main screen resolution for "FINAL FANTASY XI" is dependent on the "Overlay Graphics Resolution" setting.
If the Overlay Graphics Resolution is set higher than the Menu Resolution, menus will be automatically resized.


I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#10 Oct 05 2010 at 8:18 AM Rating: Good
***
2,270 posts
Everyone seems to be assuming its 5% DW, i dont remember any boomerang tests, but would love to see them if they exist. As much as I like new gear, its becoming frustrating in the ranged/ammo areas. We are getting better options, but mutually exclusive ones. Crit ammo/bomb core-ish things, DW, or xbow. Wy couldnt they at least make the boomerang a stinking ammo piece. I really dont mind buying darts to have the option to swap around any ammo options -_-

I actually had a similar conundrum with my new AF+1 4% haste pants vs TP-ing in skadi, and the points melph has made are basically the same ones I used to make my decision to go for 2% more haste, -1/2acc, -5atk, 7stp. I too am finding myself holding TP to sata often for a number of reasons: crit boost trait making stacked WS more attractive, More Evis usage=holding a little more to land darkness, NOT killing with WS for junky ruby light is a BIG one, and the more "normal" stuff weve had for years like planting hate etc.

Cant wait to finish Daka+1 (still going painfully slow ><) which will be another BIG reason I will be holding TP by the sounds of it.

Edited, Oct 5th 2010 10:19am by Banalaty
____________________________
Aanalaty, Mithra of San d'Oria
99Thf/99Drg/99Rng/95Pld/Secret Job 92
Bonecraft-100+3 7/29/08
Lu Shangs-5/28/08
Twashtar-90
Ryunohige-75: 1/7/2012
Mandau-75: 3/9/2012

Maat-1/1 Thf Meleed (pansies steal)
Some of mah gearz: http://www.ffxiah.com/player/Lakshmi/Aanalaty#item-sets
Join 'People Against The Heart Snatcher' and help put Thfs on the right P.A.T.H.S. today!
#11 Oct 05 2010 at 11:16 AM Rating: Excellent
***
3,775 posts
I'm trying not to over think my gear selections and making choices based on what I know about stats. It keeps the stress down and allows me to have fun in the game. I'm also not trying to maximize everything because let's face it; nobody has everything they want for any of their jobs and next update the best stuff of today could be obsolete. The only hard abyssean NM's are the zone mid boss and mega boss but the rest can be done with 3-6. After getting my raider's culottes +1 I helped a friend with his drg and war seals and ended up giving away the thf seals to outsiders. My social/event shell has hit abyss-mis pretty hard too. I'll get almost everything I want just because the nms are in such demand and have good drop rates + low respawns. I sold off most of my old gear since prices suck now and work with mostly rare ex (to be fair, the rare/ex I have is still top of the line equipment anyway). For example the quest "An Acrydian Anodyne" gives a Jupiter's Ring 100% the first completion which can have ATTK +1-6. I use my Raider's Culottes +1 and aurore gaiters for sa and tassets + NQ dragon leggings for ta. I can add in my AF3 feet and ambushers hose later. I've spent more time leveling new jobs than worrying about miniscule details against mobs with widely varying unknown stats. I have a lvl 81 taru blm now and Mel is a lvl 67 SMN and 68 RNG. All have gear ready for 85 because the nm's are just that easy (some are even the current ideal like goetia mantle and caller's pendant) and I have several seals to boot. It really is just that easy, the only limitation is playtime and traverser stones. There are three months between each update and I had just finished up my adjustments from the June update when September rolled around so its a perfect schedule. S-E has executed abyssea phenomenally well and it's a lot of fun, so right now I don't see a point in micromanaging details because everything has changed (and continues to change) rapidly.

Trying to perfect tp useage causes ulcers. Check a parse and figure out your total tp gained vs ws frequency and you usually have 20-30% lossiness and even 40% is not that uncommon. Ruby light is yet another reason why we soometimes hold tp. Even if you tp beyond 100% by a little bit it's really not THAT bad because our weapons won't turn to sh*t like the blau dolch did. As long as you don't routinely weaponskill in the 170%-200% range you should be just fine.

Edited, Oct 5th 2010 11:00pm by Melphina
____________________________
[ffxisig]56619[/ffxisig]

There are 10 kinds of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.
#12 Oct 05 2010 at 11:31 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
**
485 posts
@Mirax: before I forget you should really try the Rapidus Sax for your off-hand sometime. I have both daggers and the Sax feels a lot faster for tp (eyeballing).

I would also keep Raider's boomerang (if it actually is 5% dual-wield) and mirke (DW/acc) for that matter. The only evasive monster I have seen so far in abyssea was just one NM called: flame skimmer. I don't feel the need for Taranis's harness at this point. I would not worry about Stp too much either.

And for all who are going after Raider's boomerang: The pop condition for Kutharei is to kill Ironclad Severer first. It has been confirmed by Kirschy from BG. And Kirschy is known for his solid information.
#13 Oct 06 2010 at 10:26 AM Rating: Good
***
2,270 posts
Quote:
I have a lvl 81 taru blm now and Mel is a lvl 67 SMN and 68 RNG.


O_O finally breaking out of THF ONRY! then eh? I was honestly shocked you stuck to one this long. I thoguht i was a 2 job man.....then along came frustration with so much new content (when VNMs etc were coming out) that i REALLY wanted to do but could basically only TH **** on because so much stuff was so anti-melee related. I was also nearly capping out on the lv 75 world of thf+drg with only VERY minor aquisitions left to bother with. And thus spawned Aana the rng. And shortly after Aana the pld just because i had all the gear and wanted to try out the other end of the hate machine and now im a 4 jobber. It was mostly due to scraping the ceiling for things i was able to get/do on thf and drg that i expanded out. Then, of course, level cap was announced and im no longer near "done" with thf/drg anymore :P.

But i am suprised you never felt you were 'capping' out on thf and looking for new challenges after all these years until now. I guess you funneled excess energy into mandau, i put it into 3 more jobs :P

Edited, Oct 6th 2010 12:28pm by Banalaty
____________________________
Aanalaty, Mithra of San d'Oria
99Thf/99Drg/99Rng/95Pld/Secret Job 92
Bonecraft-100+3 7/29/08
Lu Shangs-5/28/08
Twashtar-90
Ryunohige-75: 1/7/2012
Mandau-75: 3/9/2012

Maat-1/1 Thf Meleed (pansies steal)
Some of mah gearz: http://www.ffxiah.com/player/Lakshmi/Aanalaty#item-sets
Join 'People Against The Heart Snatcher' and help put Thfs on the right P.A.T.H.S. today!
#14 Oct 06 2010 at 10:13 PM Rating: Good
***
3,775 posts
The level cap increase has given us a fresh start and we're all more or less on even grounds if we pick a job to play. Almost everything from lvls 1-75 is easily replaced by a comparable or better item now and I have no doubt this will continue when the body/hand af3 comes out at level 90. My tp set is entirely rare/ex but it's one of the best you could ask for and most of my other swaps follow suit so when I sold my gear I didn't lose anything in performance except a few points of dex and agi on solo sa/ta and my sa set has been compensated for by adding haste. I'll have better choices soon when I finish my af feet anyway. I only use 5 or 6 pieces of sellable gear so I used the money to play other jobs. Of course the other jobs will be mostly rare/ex in time as well (totM staves for mage, goetia for blm, callers for smn, etc. The only accessory I don't have yet is the goetia chain so I use lemington medallion for now and I have several seals for each AF 3 on both jobs as well) and aside from a few low cost auction items which drop from the new nms or dirt cheap old items like errant and dark staves for hMP I won't have to bend over backwards to gear them well once they reach lvl 85. I've taken the stance that in the coming year I will just play FFXI to experience what s-e throws at us and I'll worry about end game when level 99 rolls around. For now we've been given a fun little playground where we can advance ourselves rapidly both in levels/merits as well as GOOD gear selections so I'm taking advantage of it and diversifying myself. That's not to say I don't still play to excel because It's quite the opposite (I always put my heart into the game). But I'm being faced with entertaining time sinks instead of frustrating ones this time around so I don't mind it too much. As far as thief related accomplishments my latest acquisitions would be

--Kila +1
--Raider's Culottes +1 finished
--3/8 feet seals and 1/8 head seals with a small group from my /flist set to take the worm and slug apart in the coming weeks. I'll low man --the feet boxes in abyssea with friends because farming af3 through pickup exp ally is a terrible idea and I just won't do it that way.
--lotsa misc stuff like arctier's torque and a rare/ex jupiter's ring and etc etc etc as well as belenos' and cavaros's mantles
--both abyssites of celerity (heck yeah to 12 hour traverser stone recast)

I also spawned my first Amhuluk today and we got a rapidus sax and a coin of balance. I chose to lot the coin and threw the dagger up for points because in the long run the sax will be easy to get whereas coins will not. There are 5 jobs which need 6 coins each for their AF3 +2 plus 5 more that need the jewels of balance and of those 10 jobs only one or two would make use of the sax (plus sax drops almost every time) whereas I saw ONE coin and no jewels on my kill. The bottleneck is definitely on the coins so I'll prioritize them over sax in a group event until I get sax just because everybody else already has one and it's free lot. That should take me... oh a week or two tops at the rate my shell is farming abyss mis since we haven't touched the other zones as a shell and farmed mis for 7 days straight Smiley: dubious. I guess we're knocking each zone out one at a time until people get legs +1 so sax won't be hard at all for me to get. So with that said... 1/6 on rogue's cullotes +2.

That aside, I'm enjoying the new content. Abyssea is just that awesome.

Edited, Oct 7th 2010 12:20am by Melphina
____________________________
[ffxisig]56619[/ffxisig]

There are 10 kinds of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.
Reply To Thread

Colors Smileys Quote OriginalQuote Checked Help

 

Recent Visitors: 22 All times are in CDT
Anonymous Guests (22)