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General discussion for the September update findings.Follow

#1 Sep 10 2010 at 9:55 PM Rating: Excellent
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Hey guys, I thought it would be a good idea to have a centralized place to discuss the information that will be forthcoming in the following weeks as well as a place for general discussion and speculation on playing thief itself. This update looks like it was as big as the last and we still have three more to go until we hit level 99 O.O. I'm totally at a loss for words... it's so much information to take in I can't keep up. It feels refreshing though and I'm enjoying it.

I'll start off with a few observations I haven't sene mentioned. First off, my base stats were adjusted. When S-E wrote this in their update notes

Quote:
A change to the algorithm used to calculate status effects for player characters and automatons has been implemented.


They were referring to our BASE attributes. Before the version update I was a level 80 thief/nin with 82 base dex (unmerited) and
85 with merits. I logged into the game yesterday as a level 80 thf/nin with 85 dex (unmerited) and 88 dex with merits. I triod for my kindred's crests with a hume dark knight and a galka warrior and their strength was 3 more after the update than it was before. Cool!! We thought our base stats were rising too slowly immediately after the last update and it seems s-e agreed.

With that out of the way, I want to know your thoughts on dex versus strength merits in general. 4 strength raises weapon base damage by 1, but now players are garnishing 2 handed weapons to the tune of 115 + base damage (absolution +1) and our Kila +1 is an astounding 41 base damage. By level 99 I can foresee dagger base damage being 50+ and 2 handers brandishing 130+ base D weapons. Considering that no matter how powerful your weapon's base damage is 4 strength is only 1 more it's much less important on a relative scale. However criticals raise pDIF by 1.0 which is akin to adding the base damage to the actual damage output (it's not quite this simple, but that's the gist when your attack doesn't suck). If a D 115 scythe hits for 200 normal it may critical for 315, whereas adding 1 strength may make it hit for 202 damage instead. We have critical attack bonus 1 and we will be getting at least another tier of the trait, and those of us with warrior or dark knight leveled will also have the trait. Criticals are becoming ever more powerful!!

Expanding upon criticals; evisceration is becoming more powerful with every update. The reason dancing edge held its own against evisceration at level 75 was because the 40% charisma secondary modifier was a significant amount of base damage increase to our back-then low base damage weapons. Now that we're wielding stronger daggers (even stronger in the future) coupled with our critical attack bonus I think it's time/(or very lose to it) that we make evisceration our full time multi-hit weaponskill. Unless s-e releases some serious charisma modded weaponskill gear evisceration is getting shinier and shinier with every passing update.

Finally... weapons. We have a veritable armory of high powered daggers to choose from and I think all of them have merit. I will not break down every combo nor analyze beyond very basic thinking because the variables are too many, but I want to show you guys a few interesting things.

The following will be done with with 51% total haste and 38% dual wield and stp + 8 (I'm considering Dual Wield III at level 90 as well as a few personal hypothetical gear choices). The actual numbers are not important; only the discussion therein.

Edit: Before anyone asks me. YES I have accounted for the fact that auric dagger increases dual wield by 5% and the rapidus sax increases haste by 1%. The scenario's with auric have the proper tp/hit and swings/hr and the kila/kila scenario has been done with 1% haste less than the two scenarios with the rapidus sax as well as the appropriate dual wield.

Quote:
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Auric Dagger/Rapidus Sax
Average base damage per swing == 35.5
Average tp per hit == 4.6
Swings per hour === 5,464
Base damage per hour == 193,972
tp per hour == 26,008
------------------------------------
Kila/Rapidus Sax
Average base damage per swing == 36.5
Average tp per hit == 4.6
Swings per hour === 5,186
Base damage per hour == 189,289
tp per hour == 23,850
-----------------------------------
Kila/Kila
Average base damage per swing == 41
Average tp per hit == 4.7
Swings per hour === 4,547
Base damage per hour == 186,427
tp per hour == 21,370
--------------------------------------

These numbers are for general reference ONLY!! I have intentionally omitted accuracy, average pDIF, criticals and secondary mods in the above calculations because these variables are potentially huge.

ALL of those weapons are badass, and the Kila +1's hold their own no less!! If you were to consider dual wielding two flame kila's then we're talking 16 strength (+4 base damage every swing), and 44 attack, whereas two thunder kila +1's would enhance dexterity (sa/critical rate/ws mods) by 16 and accuracy by a whopping 36 (18%). The Auric Dagger is lower base damage than the Kila's and it doesn't come with a secondary stat set. The Rapidus Sax however comes with 12 accuracy as well as 1% haste and 150 delay, but 32 damage is 9 less than a Kila and we get no dex/str.

There are a lot of sh*t is situational factors involved here. The Auric/Rapidus Sax combo does seem like its the strongest because of the tp but the tradeoff lies in the secondary stats the Kila +1 would have had, and they're getting pretty beefy by now. I wonder how much better it really is. All of these new weapons are really strong. If the Rapidus sax proves difficult to get I'm thinking of trying out a critical build for real (especially with thf pants crit rate+) and I may change my two strength merits to dex and see what happens. My mithra already has an absurd dex level and I wonder how much stuff I can cap crit rate on with two thunder kila's and my existing tp gear. Side note: I've been slowly watching my solo sa/ta damage grow and with this update I began hitting colibri for 820-850 damage whereas I peaked out around 680-710 at lvl 75. It's fun to watch my criticals grow in strength and I wonder how much I can push them in quantity as well.

At any rate, that's all I have to offer right now. I have no opinion of sub job atm. Thf/war versus thf/nin is out in the open with too much uncharted territory for me to pass judgment one way or another.

Edited, Sep 11th 2010 12:22am by Melphina
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#2 Sep 10 2010 at 11:09 PM Rating: Decent
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i'm very excited about all the new stuff aswell, i think we'll see some fun combos work their way out of the woodwork next few weeks ~ months. As this is general discussion i was wondering did we get another Evasion Bonus job trait somewhere between 81 and 85? I was trying to skill it off of Blazendrakes in Riverne B and it just felt like it i guess (i was missed 26 times in a row at one point) but it could just very well be other factors.
#3 Sep 11 2010 at 5:12 AM Rating: Decent
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I'm not sure that anything beats STR/ATT Kila +1 for offhand with Mandau. That's a total of STR+8 Attack+52. Pretty much a free mithkabob.

Also, 85 Mandau is now a rank 5 weapon.



Edited, Sep 11th 2010 8:15am by Lobivopis
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I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#4 Sep 11 2010 at 6:07 AM Rating: Good
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I saw ThiefKiller's post about his level 84 thf/war experience and I had a similar one in my abyssea party, albeit I didn't break 3k but came close. Since cruor is common nowadays if the restoral chests are going to waste you can use a key to just pop it and restore your two hour ability (I did this many times) while simultaneously reviving berserk/warcry. White Mage has become an absurdely powerful healer, and while I did take a lot of healing myself I only died once (they actually made ME the main assiist so i was first to strike the birds and eventually I said screw it and began voke pulling). We were fighting Coastal Colibri in Abyssea-Misereaux and even though I took a lot of damage I had about ~~~ 1600 HP with my tp set and cruor buffs to max hp (I also merited max hp 8 times). I took a good 200-300 damage per shot but we had like 8 mages to cure the sh*t outta me so I wasn't in that much danger. Abyssea has broken the old rules and it allows both mages and melees to use their full power when fighting. Resting is almost a thing of the past. Refresh II plus Ballad III and /rdm convert and hell even /rdm refresh 1 further ehnaced the "I have more mp than I need.... CURE!!" effect. I was amazed at how powerful everyone was, both the damage dealers AND the support.

I have said in the past that I believe the old way of playing events is going to be broken soon and I feel even stronger about that now more than ever. Melees beat the crud out of stuff, mages provide divine protection (my god those mage buffs have been sexy), and Black Mages blast the ever living bajeesus out of anything that moves. The coastal colibri weere extremely resistant to elegy and seemingly light based spells in general, but our blms didn't have and problem sleepping them and by the time we capped our lights once fell on them they went down like a wet paper bag (coastal colibri don't reflect magic of any kind back at you). We started pulling 4-5 of em at a time during the last hour I was awake for and it was a blast.

Just like ThiefKiller I don't HATE thf/war if we're talking about abyssea. I think I may still tote my /nin sub around for a long time doing solo and low man stuff outside abyssea, but unless I'm tanking something like Megantereon or fighting a similar type of mob (endoom or terrible aoe that utsu actually WORKS on) I'm going to make /war my default sub inside abyssea for the time being and see what happens.

Edited, Sep 11th 2010 8:15am by Melphina
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#5 Sep 11 2010 at 9:47 AM Rating: Good
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Mistress Melphina wrote:
I saw ThiefKiller's post about his level 84 thf/war experience and I had a similar one in my abyssea party, albeit I didn't break 3k but came close.


Yeah the whole time in that abyssea party I think I only broke 3k twice. Most likely due to really lucky multi procs and having zerk + stalwart tonic up at the same time. Although there is lots of room for improvement on that with atmas (I still don't have a lunar abyssite or really know much about them) and stat boosts so I can see us becoming very powerful there.

I think /war could be really good if SE decided to add some natural defensive ability for THF. As it stands we really can't even make good use of accomplice and collaborator without /nin or blowing PD. Even a max evasion set really isn't going to save you against those leveled up abyssea mobs.

I died twice in the begining due to lack of serious DD's and I couldn't seem to lose hate so I was getting dissapointed. But after the first hour a few DD's swapped out and some solid people showed up and birds were essploding in seconds and I could start to really let loose. It was a lot of fun.

Edited, Sep 11th 2010 11:52am by ThiefKiller
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#6 Sep 11 2010 at 2:49 PM Rating: Good
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Just a note about str vs. dex merits and abyssea. I see no reason why, if you have an LS that is very active pursuing atmas to have STR merits if you are a thf. atma of the lion and atma of the voracious violet are two of the best atmas you can equip for a DD, and they have +70 str between them (Not saying you have to use both), so if you are in abyssea and you have those atmas, you are probably @ or above fSTR cap. DEX however only comes on one atma, and it seems to suck.

Also, I am a little bummed that there is an atma with TH +5, not because it has TH +5, but because it has no other useful stats on it so essentially you have to sacrifice potential yet again for drops...
#7 Sep 12 2010 at 3:40 AM Rating: Decent
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Melphina wrote:
Since cruor is common nowadays if the restoral chests are going to waste you can use a key to just pop it and restore your two hour ability (I did this many times) while simultaneously reviving berserk/warcry.

By doing this you not hitting the mob currently in your camp. So you lose damage and tp by disengaging -> clicking on a chest -> trade key -> engaging. Kind of defeats the purpose of going /war imo. And you died one time which made your damage go down even further.

I exped my thf in abysea today and went from 81 to 85. We fought birds in miseraux. I really needed my shadows. I never died and was engaged 95% of the time (eyeball). I can say honestly going thf/war would not have been a good idea. Cure power is nice but mages can do other things also: Dia, haste, sleep, nuke, pull, ect, ect.

If you going to be an mp sink you better crank up you damage by a lot i.e. Fell Cleave burn.

And keep in mind in abysea party's people swap in and out almost constantly. At the start of an abysea party you can have two mages in your party and at a later moment it can be one or even zero mages. /nin in exp just makes the most sense imo.

Edited, Sep 12th 2010 11:46am by Breaze
#8 Sep 12 2010 at 6:47 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
By doing this you not hitting the mob currently in your camp. So you lose damage and tp by disengaging -> clicking on a chest -> trade key -> engaging. Kind of defeats the purpose of going /war imo. And you died one time which made your damage go down even further.


Disengaging a mob to pop a chest is such an insignificant detail I'm surprised you used that as an argument. If you were really worried about it you could even create a macro /item "forbidden key" <t>. If you partied in abyssea for three hours and took a few seconds to open 12 chests you may lose a minute or two of engage time max. That's not a lot and you know it. I've noticed a pattern in abyssea where most mobs are generally easy to hit but their defenses are extremely high. Last night a few friends and I did some nm runs in abyssea-misereaux and I ran a parse thief/nin with my tp gear and no food on a few normal mobs and yellow curry afterward to see what kind of numbers I got back. The sample sizes were small but my accuracy was a consistent 80-90%+ which tells me I was doing pretty good on accuracy. Even the NM's didn't dodge that well. The worst was the colibri where after ~~100 swings I was in the high 70 percentile accuracy range. Before meat my attack was 421 and my actual damage per swing was pitiful (~~5-30 damage) and I managed to hit a few coastal colibri for 3 actual damage like this. After eating yellow curry my attack was 498 and I still think my average pDIF was hovering in the 1.0 or lower range on several targets. Curry allowed me to hit for more respectable damage but my dagger's base damage is 38 and I have a decent amount of strength so I know 30-40 actual damage is too low. If I had been able to use berserk I would have shot my attack upwards to 622 and if I had some support I could have really hiked it. Since we were just friends messing around I had a chance to gather some data and I got back some interesting stuff. We managed to kill the NM's we fought and I was in a 2 man party with my partner watching for a pop nm so I wasn't going to be getting buffed anyway.

Quote:
If you going to be an mp sink you better crank up you damage by a lot i.e. Fell Cleave burn.


Um... that's exactly what berserk does. As I just stated Abyssean mobs generally have a lot of defense and berserk cuts through that defense like a hot butter knife. My abyssean exp alliance had 18 people and about 8 of them were mages plus I was getting cross cured from the mages in the other groups. I wasn't the only one getting cure bombed either, so I won't rule out thief/war so easily like you have. You're trying to argue thief/nin's superiority to thief/war for damage by calling me out on semantics (time lost popping chests is insignificant and sh*t happens where people die...that's nothing new. Trust me, others died a few times as well). But berserk is huge. Nitpicking small stuff will never compensate for a %$#@ 25% attack boost 60% of the time. I'm sorry, it just won't!

Quote:
And keep in mind in abysea party's people swap in and out almost constantly. At the start of an abysea party you can have two mages in your party and at a later moment it can be one or even zero mages. /nin in exp just makes the most sense imo.


In my experiences once you start losing people (especially mages) if they aren't replaced the alliance usually breaks soon anyway. If I'm in a good party this typically takes hours and by then I'll be ready to head out myself. My attention span can only focus on one thing for so long. Abyssea is such a fun place and s-e is telling players it's OK to experiment since the difficulty scale is relatively low. More often than not you can go in there and do what you want and have fun while still achieving your goals. I intend to keep trying out new stuff and making observations, but I'm not ruling out thief/war's viability even in exp alliances.

Edited, Sep 12th 2010 12:52pm by Melphina
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#9 Sep 12 2010 at 7:41 AM Rating: Good
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Back to the findings and whatnot, does anyone know what dagger caps at 85? Got my dnc capped at 329 iirc then turned around to level thf and it was uncapped by 82. I'm at 85 now but had to super pull my last party and didn't get to skillup ; ;

Edited, Sep 12th 2010 9:42am by Kalisa
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#10 Sep 12 2010 at 10:08 AM Rating: Good
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Just wanna chime in that if you're pulling for an Abyssea party, grab a 50 pack of keys, and make an arrangement with your chest leech to get all the 2 hr restores. I'd pull five frogs at once, pop Perfect Dodge, yawn as they whiffed at me til they were slept, and then dive in to help with the slaughtering, only disengaging the last of the set to go pull 1-2 more - until the next 2 hour chest popped, then I'd PD and grab 5 all over again. I think I used Perfect Dodge about 20-30 times last night.

Since we'd end up with 2-3 2-hour chests in a row, and we didn't have a SMN with Odin, me and the bard split em up, and the main DD party was pretty much running with permanent Soul Voice on. It was wacky crazy fun AND I got nearly 20 evasion skill and almost recapped my dagger (it's around 320 now) :D
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#11 Sep 12 2010 at 10:43 AM Rating: Good
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Kalisa wrote:
Back to the findings and whatnot, does anyone know what dagger caps at 85? Got my dnc capped at 329 iirc then turned around to level thf and it was uncapped by 82. I'm at 85 now but had to super pull my last party and didn't get to skillup ; ;

Edited, Sep 12th 2010 9:42am by Kalisa



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#12 Sep 13 2010 at 1:01 AM Rating: Default
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melp use some common sense. The restore chests should be going to the cor's and brd's in the first place. Full time SV do you need it? Hell even a sam, war, mnk could make better use from those chests.

You also did not reply to my mage argument: Cure power is nice but mages can do other things also: Dia, haste, sleep, nuke, pull, ect, ect.

And I mentioned Fell Cleave burn. Let me show you what I mean:
http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/98430-new-job-abilities-traits-spells-and-adjustments-to-old-ones-thread!-9-8-10?p=4102502&viewfull=1#post4102502

I could not find the original pic but it is there somewhere. 230k/hour Abyssea PT. That is what I meant by cranking up your damage by a lot and being an mp sink at the same time. thf/war, also an mp sink, cant compete with that kind of damage. My point being: yes with thf/war your damage might go up a bit compaired to thf/nin but not enough to warrant the cure bombing you need. On top of which there is the risk of death and the stuff I mentioned before.

Having said all this. I admit it is lolabyssea where nobody really cares what you sub, eat or wear. As long as the exp and time chests come in nobody seems to care what you do or don't do. I see so many horrible gimp players there. I have seen drg full-time staff, Blm full time NQ ice staff. Thf full-time HS and thf knife. Brd only singing ballads even if they are in a melee party. Random jobs with random gear skilling up w/e weapon they want, ect, ect. So I don't think a thf/war who is actually doing a lot of damage will meet much resistance either. (I am not implying you are gimp or horrible I just don't think thf/war is efficient in exp.)
#13 Sep 13 2010 at 4:51 AM Rating: Good
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Breaze wrote:
melp use some common sense. The restore chests should be going to the cor's and brd's in the first place. Full time SV do you need it? Hell even a sam, war, mnk could make better use from those chests.

You also did not reply to my mage argument: Cure power is nice but mages can do other things also: Dia, haste, sleep, nuke, pull, ect, ect.

And I mentioned Fell Cleave burn. Let me show you what I mean:
http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/98430-new-job-abilities-traits-spells-and-adjustments-to-old-ones-thread!-9-8-10?p=4102502&viewfull=1#post4102502

I could not find the original pic but it is there somewhere. 230k/hour Abyssea PT. That is what I meant by cranking up your damage by a lot and being an mp sink at the same time. thf/war, also an mp sink, cant compete with that kind of damage. My point being: yes with thf/war your damage might go up a bit compaired to thf/nin but not enough to warrant the cure bombing you need. On top of which there is the risk of death and the stuff I mentioned before.

Having said all this. I admit it is lolabyssea where nobody really cares what you sub, eat or wear. As long as the exp and time chests come in nobody seems to care what you do or don't do. I see so many horrible gimp players there. I have seen drg full-time staff, Blm full time NQ ice staff. Thf full-time HS and thf knife. Brd only singing ballads even if they are in a melee party. Random jobs with random gear skilling up w/e weapon they want, ect, ect. So I don't think a thf/war who is actually doing a lot of damage will meet much resistance either. (I am not implying you are gimp or horrible I just don't think thf/war is efficient in exp.)


Fell Cleave burns are good exp, yes. I think it would be a bit silly if that became the new standard though. Abyssea exp parties are already really really good. I don't think its fair to say that THF/WAR is not worth it because it can't put out the damage of a fell cleave burn WAR.

THF/WAR, imo, is completely dependant on two things. Do you have real DD's to work with? DO you have mages that are worth a damn? If those two things are present, in my oppinion, THF/NIN is less efficient. I started a party the other day where none of the DD's could take hate back from me. My sneak attacks alone were more than the SAM's WS's...thats not a party where THF/WAR is a good idea. I've also had parties with really agressive DD's and mobs are spinning and exploding out of control. In that party, I think /WAR might be more efficient than /NIN to keep up and contribute.

I don't think there is anything wrong with asking mages to use their mp to heal people either. Especially with the buffs they now receive from atmas, new abilites, spells and gear. (Cureskin/Aoe Stoneskin/Near infinite MP from refresh sources etc., etc.). Not to mention that with temp items constantly being refreshed, you have your own means to heal your hp as well.

I would still like to see THF get some kind of defensive ability that would ease out dependancy on shadows a a bit.

Edited, Sep 13th 2010 10:48am by ThiefKiller
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#14 Sep 13 2010 at 7:15 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Do you have real DD's to work with? DO you have mages that are worth a damn?


This is all that you really need, though if you're slightly light on healing, a main-assist with some damage mitigation can go a long way. melee/sam or mnk/war with counterstance has worked well in my experience. Just think: the mob is going to be swinging at *someone*. Whether it's you, or the hasso 2 hander doesn't make much difference. Both need curing. Most quality abyssea burns I've had, everyone is going all-out, so one more thf/war taking hits to the face won't matter.

If you're in a pickup alliance that is playing defensively, it would be more prudent to /nin.
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#15 Sep 13 2010 at 8:21 AM Rating: Excellent
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I've used both thf/nin as well as thf/war to pickup abyssea and I don't deny that thief/nin still has it's place. Yesterday I joined a pickup la thiene group for an hour and the group wasn't doing very good so I subbed /nin. I was glad I did because this group wasn't as prepared as some of my others. However some runs are overprepared, and in this case I think thf/war is perfectly viable.

Quote:
melp use some common sense. The restore chests should be going to the cor's and brd's in the first place. Full time SV do you need it? Hell even a sam, war, mnk could make better use from those chests.


I don't base my sub job selection off of restore chests. If I'm in a weak group I will sub /nin but if I'm in a strong group I'll consider subbing /war. I originally mentioned restore boxes because my colibri burn didn't need them all. The thing is that chests only stay up for a few minutes and not everyone uses them even if they should be used. This can happen for 1 of 2 reasons. 1: Your group isn't doing very well and your party has poor players OR 2: Your group is kicking so much ass you're getting SO MANY boxes that there isn't enough time to keep track of them all. In the latter case temporary items are flying around like candy and your group may be more interested in those gargantuan gold boxes popping up than the restorals. For whatever reson be it the former or the latter I've joined alliances where restore chests timed out and vanished. If people are just going to LET them go by the wayside then yes I'm going to use them myself. It's better than the alternative.

As you said, abyssea exp alliances aren't a big deal. People bring underleveled sub jobs and mages who are level 60-65 to the field as well as poorly equipped "anyjob". The funny thing is that if the group is paying attention to the lights and getting the proper types of kills at the proper times you can still extend abyssea exp chains indefinitely, all the while getting better exp per hour than anything you could elsewhere. Abysea exp is just that easy. Abyssea notorious monsters on the other hand need a bit more tact, but for simple exp ally you don't have to do anything special to contribute meaningfully; just play smart.

Edited, Sep 13th 2010 10:37am by Melphina
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#16 Sep 13 2010 at 1:39 PM Rating: Excellent
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Mistress Melphina wrote:
If you were really worried about it you could even create a macro /item "forbidden key" <t>.


/item "forbiddey key" <stnpc>

Then you dont ever need to disengage a mob. you can pop chests around you while still engaged.
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#17 Sep 13 2010 at 4:26 PM Rating: Decent
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Great idea, I am changing my macro.
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