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Hopeful SpeculationFollow

#1 Sep 10 2010 at 1:52 AM Rating: Good
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As the name implies, we don't really know yet, BUT at the current rate the lv 99 Magian dagger should be ~Double Attack +15, and *praying* we do get DWII sometime soon, and with the new gear coming out 25% Haste cap should be fairly easy to reach. SO, my proposition is THF/WAR DW 2 base Double Attack 10% base Triple Attack 10% (merits) wearing:

HEAD: AF3+2 ACC +12 Haste +6 triple attack +3
BODY: Rap. Harness Haste +4 or ACP body DW+ or potentially something better post 85
HANDS: Homam atm Haste +3 but fairly sure something better will be out by then
lEGS: AF3 +2 Haste +5 DEX +7 Crit. Hit rate +4%
FEET: Homam? Haste +3 vs AF3 feet depending on set bonus (Homam would be wasted because of Haste cap)
NECK: Lets say Tiercel necklace Haste +1 for the sake of capping Haste easily
BACK: Aesir Mantle double attack +1% attack +8
WAIST: Speed Belt Haste +6 or better belts (not sure of the Haste +7 belt's name)
EARS: Brutal Dbl attack +5%/ Supp. DW 5%
RINGS: Raja's/ some ACC ring
AMMO: New DW boomerang

=
Haste + 25%
Triple attack +3 + set bonus = 13%+
Double attack + 6 +15 = 31%
DW Base 15% + 5 + boomerang = 20%+
Excluding other bonuses such as ACC DEX Crit etc

I know it's all speculation but this has been buzzing around in my head for a little while now, as I'm sure others have thought about it. Giving that we can potentially reach 20% or higher DW fairly easily (higher with ACP body) 1. Would subbing WAR be a viable option without sacrificing the extra DW? 2. Would the Double Attack dagger be worth it?

Neither questions can really be answered now and only time will tell, but it does get me to start thinking about it. If this plays out I can be pretty d@mn sure that even if its not the best possible setup given DW 3 from /NIN, this is most likely how I'm going to be doing THF/WAR. Just thought I'd bring up the topic to discuss.

Edited, Sep 10th 2010 3:53am by Yopopoe

Edited, Sep 10th 2010 12:19pm by Yopopoe
____________________________
Dec 1st 2008- "Hey maybe they will throw in a B in H2H just because they ignored this issue for so long(pfft yeah right).
LOLSE"

2010 - (03/22/2010) The Version Update Has Arrived!
"The following changes have been made to puppetmaster:
Hand-to-hand combat rating has been raised from rank C to B+."

...Well what'ddya know!
#2 Sep 10 2010 at 3:44 AM Rating: Decent
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I was thinking over the same thing. I might not be around by the time this all becomes possible, but I was thinking of using the mini expansions to get dual wield and double attack where applicable towards this goal. I haven't seen the Raider's armor yet though so I don't know about the stats on that. Thf/war has been something I liked doing and now that we can dual wield it could be a lot more fun.
#3 Sep 10 2010 at 4:22 AM Rating: Good
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If we indeed get DW2 by 99 as it seems to be planned, I think that /war will be stronger than /nin, but you really have to not die and not hold back in order to make it work. It'll be just as problematic as other /war jobs. DW3 (from 2) will give more than 10% more hits. D.A. from /war will give less than 10% more hits. From there, it's a question of which is better for your DPS, the differential in swing volume between extra D.W. over D.A.? Or Berserk + Aggressor + Attack Bonus?

Intuitively, I'd say that generally speaking it will be /war that will produce more damage, so long as it is possible to sustain the damage you take. In my opinion, this will usually not be the case. But there should be no shortage of instances where you can do it. So Thf/War will see increased usage from 83->89, and from whenever we get DW2 onward.

Just to note, while double attack+15 does seem like a lot, it is probably still going to be lackluster (we'll see). Remember that as you add double/triple attack in higher and higher quantities, you will see 'diminishing marginal utility' so to speak.
Thf/Nin with only 10% triple attack and 5% from brutal earring, if using a d.a.+15 dagger, would see a boost in swing vollume of about 9.7%, assuming d.a. procs before t.a. as we believe.

On the contrary, let's assume we use the AF3 in unison and get the triple attack+ boost, and let's say it's 5%. Thf/War would have 18% triple attack and 15% double attack. Marginal increase of a hypothetical +15 dagger from that would only be 155.2/145.6, or about 6.6%. 6.6% is a very small increase, deceptively small considering the dagger would say "such and such + 15". In order for it to be the best weapon to use, divide it's dmg/delay to get its dps, and multiply that by 1.066. If it is higher than your other options, use it. If not, then it's not worth it probably. Though I didn't consider WS stuff.

Also, tiercel neck aside of course, I'm not so sure about aesir mantle. Maybe it could have some use on mobs where your attack is capped, but generally there are going to be much better mantles. I understand the speed demon-age of maxing your attack volume is tempting though. It's going to be pretty ridiculous though with the new AF and DW though.

And let's not forget that unfortunately, these new heights of d.a. and t.a. also make the multiattack daggers sh*ttier.
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#4 Sep 10 2010 at 7:45 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:

And let's not forget that unfortunately, these new heights of d.a. and t.a. also make the multiattack daggers sh*ttier.


This does make me sad panda in a way. I have been TRYING to get that stupid OAT dagger done since its release back in what? april? far to long to only have 2/10 verthandi (its a long and painful story (. .) ).

All of this DOES however respark my interest in low delay builds. I have been moving away from them due to the (planned) Kila(dex/str)/OAT Paraz combo i wanted. Both slow daggers by thf standards (190/211) but with incredible power of the magian elemental line combined with the OAT offhand to keep my TP up to snuff. However with the notable increases in Triple and (if /war becomes premier DD sub) DA, then the gains of a DA dagger will be sharply cut.

As if SE predicted this plight, here comes rapid sex....errr rapidus sax dagger. This just brings back the fond memories of Blau/sirocco speed but updated for a new age. 1st thought is Auric/Rapid. Perhaps future set of that D39/176 dagger with latent mercy stroke combined with rapidus D32/Delay150/Haste1%/Acc12.

The slowness of magian daggers is making me a little sad now that we have the possiblity to return to our speed demon roots. (and also fearing that I may have wasted a lot of time working on some 5 magian daggers).

I havent really found a mainhand FAST dagger in the way blau used to be at lv 75. But as soon as we get/find one, I think I know exactly how I will be using both DW3 at level 90 or DW2 /war in the future. By going back to our roots and ABUSING low delay to skyrocket our TP/DPS and now just pdate it with more haste, more DW, and more 2x/3x attacks.
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#5 Sep 10 2010 at 10:31 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
On the contrary, let's assume we use the AF3 in unison and get the triple attack+ boost, and let's say it's 5%. Thf/War would have 18% triple attack and 15% double attack. Marginal increase of a hypothetical +15 dagger from that would only be 155.2/145.6, or about 6.6%. 6.6% is a very small increase, deceptively small considering the dagger would say "such and such + 15". In order for it to be the best weapon to use, divide it's dmg/delay to get its dps, and multiply that by 1.066. If it is higher than your other options, use it. If not, then it's not worth it probably. Though I didn't consider WS stuff


I'm not a FFXI math guy, but from what I'm seeing, DA dagger would be about 6.6% increase to attack rounds? What would THF/WAR assuming DW II without the dagger be? Because depending on how much of a difference it makes, when comparing 6.6% to 10% from DWIII /NIN, Agressor, Attack Bonus, Warcry and Berserk could easily make up for a 3.4% loss in attacks.

Without the dagger though, would the low delay weapons increase our DPS even more than the marginal 6.6% gain? Assuming either DA dagger mainhand (41/211) and blau offhand, vs's lower delay mainhand. I'm essentially just trying to determine if this will be useful for my own decision to go ahead and start the dagger and not feel like I wasted my time, but once again its all hypothetical speculation which makes me realize its pointless. X_x;
____________________________
Dec 1st 2008- "Hey maybe they will throw in a B in H2H just because they ignored this issue for so long(pfft yeah right).
LOLSE"

2010 - (03/22/2010) The Version Update Has Arrived!
"The following changes have been made to puppetmaster:
Hand-to-hand combat rating has been raised from rank C to B+."

...Well what'ddya know!
#6 Sep 10 2010 at 11:01 PM Rating: Decent
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Offhanding Blau isn't worth it. Sell it if you still own it.
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#7 Sep 15 2010 at 8:44 PM Rating: Good
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That's a difficult question, Yopopo. It's easy to show the marginal improvement by adding a single D.A. or T.A. piece. You only have 2 variables to consider: double attack, and triple attack. But to accurately answer your question, it would require a fully blown-out Thf/War vs Thf/Nin comparison, which I've done before and it takes pages to do accurately. Gotta pick a target mob or mob standard and compare its stats to the stats of your player, incorporating gear and trait differences. It's feasible but tiring. But unfortunately when you go into math involving mainhand/offhand weapons, sub jobs, or job vs job, it gets sticky because you have to make assumptions. Thief is one of the most difficult jobs to analyze thus, because you have to assume % variation between the use of TA+WS, SA+WS, and unstacked WS, as well as TP overflow.
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