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Petition for Dual Wield 3+ or more Follow

#1 Aug 28 2010 at 11:01 AM Rating: Decent
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Hi I would like everyone that wants to have more then Dual Wield 1 as bad as I do and tired of not getting much of a increse in are DD to please send SE feedback about it here

https://support.na.square-enix.com/form.php?id=20&la=1&p=0&fo=41


I just think its worth a Shot if you guys want it you will take the 5 mins to fill this out

Im asking all the populer thf fourms to do this and hopeing for the best.

not saying this will work but im giveing it a try and im doing it because I love thf and i put so much into it i want it to be worth something more then just the guy with th4.
#2 Aug 28 2010 at 11:55 AM Rating: Good
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I sent something in, but I'm not hopeful. Square-Enix never directly responds to the playerbase unless they're getting international negative attention (Pandaemonium Warden, Surplus EXP).
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#3cyrii, Posted: Aug 28 2010 at 1:38 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) op is spamming this post on all major forums, what a failure.
#4 Aug 28 2010 at 1:54 PM Rating: Decent
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The jobs listed below will each welcome an existing trait to their arsenal upon reaching the specified level, beyond which the degree of mastery will increase in stages.
#5TheBarrister, Posted: Aug 28 2010 at 5:01 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) I decline. Higher tiers of dual-wield aren't going to change the community mind because it won't be drastic enough.
#6 Aug 28 2010 at 6:50 PM Rating: Decent
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yeah, the main reason i quit was because it really made me mad that SE didn't give every job the same traits, armor, abilities, etc.
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#7 Aug 29 2010 at 11:18 AM Rating: Default
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Much as I'd like DW IV, I can see why they (probably) didn't add it to us. Just looking at some obtainable weapons:

Mnk: taipan fangs: dmg+22 delay +61. 58x2 dmg weapon (116) 361 delay. DPS (of weapons): 19.3.

Thf (hypothetical DWIV) Auric+kila: Dmg 77 delay 222.8. DPS (of weapons): 20.7. (suppa, auric, +3% dual wield body)

Granted mnks will be getting more martial arts traits, but as of now with dw IV our DPS would be higher than the average mnk.

Now, I'd *really* love that, sure. Mnk DoT on my thief (but then, I would have less use for my mnk) I can just see why SE might find it unfair.

Dnc though, they can have that mnk DoT (they have the exact same daggers used in this example, and an extra 5% duel wield necklace)

Can you feel my rage yet, SE?

Edit: fail adding. 58x2 is 116. Must have been mentally adding str from the weapon to base D, but then ignored it on the dagger example.

Edited, Aug 29th 2010 6:01pm by Wolfhart
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#8 Aug 29 2010 at 11:27 AM Rating: Excellent
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Online petitions from socks always work out so well.
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#9 Aug 29 2010 at 5:53 PM Rating: Good
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lolgaxe wrote:
Online petitions from socks always work out so well. never, ever work


Edited, Aug 29th 2010 8:53pm by Lobivopis
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I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#10 Aug 29 2010 at 8:24 PM Rating: Good
THF will get Dual Wield III.



At level 90.



With /NIN45.

Edited, Aug 29th 2010 7:24pm by TheHolyDragoonSeraphus
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#11 Aug 30 2010 at 3:55 AM Rating: Decent
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The jobs listed below will each welcome an existing trait to their arsenal upon reaching the specified level, beyond which the degree of mastery will increase in stages.


Level 83 being such a weird number for a trait, maybe we'll get DW II at 84 and DWIII at 85 ? A THF can dream !
#12 Aug 30 2010 at 12:37 PM Rating: Decent
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I am hoping for the best, but all it will make us is faster swinging TH whores.
#13 Aug 31 2010 at 1:35 AM Rating: Good
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To be fair, I'd like to say that the improvement from /nin DW3 alone would balance things out pretty well. It's more valuable than Sekkanoki and the other stuff that other jobs are getting. Is it enough? Well for me it is, I have confidence in my thief. But DW3 alone won't be enough if we're comparing wal-mart AH thieves to wal-mart 2h's, though. But while DW4 + /war would certainly make wal-mart thieves ridiculously strong IMO, it would make the really good thieves a bit overpowered to be honest.. After all the years of kicks in the balls, I hate to say that, but it's kinda true.

Not that I'd complain and tell them to change it if they made my job OP. I'd love it and laugh in people's faces. For that reason I'll fill out the petition lol, even tho it is a lolpetition. But in defense of such petitions, there was one time recently where it did work, actually. Not anything to do with job balance though. A dude's g/f dropped his blackbelt and couldn't get it back. GM's told him they could do nothing, even after verifying his black belt quest title. Buncha people from BG petitioned it, and a couple days later the dude got his belt. DK if that offers some spark of hope.
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#14 Aug 31 2010 at 10:43 AM Rating: Default
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Shamaya wrote:
To be fair, I'd like to say that the improvement from /nin DW3 alone would balance things out pretty well. It's more valuable than Sekkanoki and the other stuff that other jobs are getting. Is it enough? Well for me it is, I have confidence in my thief. But DW3 alone won't be enough if we're comparing wal-mart AH thieves to wal-mart 2h's, though.


Or when comparing a top of the line Thief to a top of the line 2handed DD on anything higher than Very Toughs. Nor is our current lack of native Dual Wield what is preventing us from being invited over 7 other DD jobs. (Nor is DW the utility we need to add more to endgame, which is where the entire game is right now.) Hey but I guess in the eyes of this forum, balancing an unbalanced equation is best achieved by adding the same number to both sides...


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#15 Aug 31 2010 at 5:14 PM Rating: Excellent
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Or when comparing a top of the line Thief to a top of the line 2handed DD on anything higher than Very Toughs. Nor is our current lack of native Dual Wield what is preventing us from being invited over 7 other DD jobs. (Nor is DW the utility we need to add more to endgame, which is where the entire game is right now.) Hey but I guess in the eyes of this forum, balancing an unbalanced equation is best achieved by adding the same number to both sides...


Its not that DW will magically make us gods at well....gods. It OPENS our sub job options. Right now if we want def, we /nin. If we want offense we /nin because DW rivals DA+zerk etc. Come lv 90 we are forever bound to /nin. And thus we are basically trying to compare Thf/nin vs the world. If you give thf/nin better DD tools, you now have the most evasive job in the game back up by shadows beating the sh*t outta everything. Yes there is something wrong with that. Just like if Sam/Nin could DD like a rng, Zerk/DA with /war, tank /nin, 25% haste it up /drg, and heal itself /dnc. That would also be OP. But its not because they have to change subs to do all that stuff. Thf CANT change subs. Our best DD subis also our best defensive sub.

DW3+ would open sub jobs. We could put on the hurt /war with DW3+ on an HNM. We could /nin for def. We could /rng and /ra. We could /drg for an ideal haste build and jumps/hate loss. We can /dnc/ for support and/or easy sh*t. We could even /sam and still be effective moreso than now. Hell we could see some interesting uses from /cor honestly and a return or Thf/Drk for zergs with an extra ~38-43% increase to attack speed over now. These are all significant boosts to specific situations we can cater towards far better than we can now. Currently the tradeoffs are far to skewed to make use of all the great tools we could. We can /war to gain offense....but sacrifice offense.....and defense. Now why the hell would we ever do that? We can sacrifice offense and defense for STP/Sekka/Med...thats stupid. And on down the line. /nin is far to potent compared to every other sub to the point that we cant justify using them.

Right now, any boost of any other sub is completely and dominantly overshadowed by how damn effective DW is. The combo of huge DD boost and best defense bar none binds us to /nin. One way to "balance" thf is by opening up subs without crippling BOTH our defense (Shadows) and offense (DW). Native DW would do that. Its not that DW would make us all cool and everyone would want a thf. Its that DW cuts our ties to /nin as best def and offense and gives us LOTS of new options/tools. Look at just how friggin versatile Sam is because of its ability to use ANY sub job. /drg, /war, /nin, /dnc, /rng to name a few can augment sam to fit niche roles in a variety of situations. We talk about versatility being a premier trait of thf, imagine if we could use more than 1 damn sub job.

But alas, we are forever destined not to be a thf, but a thf/nin.
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#16 Aug 31 2010 at 5:43 PM Rating: Good
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Thats why im alitle upset about getting DW1. its no pointin haveing it if /nin is still better its like nothing changed at all.
#17 Aug 31 2010 at 6:50 PM Rating: Decent
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Banalaty wrote:
We could put on the hurt /war with DW3+ on an HNM.


Oh like every 2 hander and Ranger can already?

I haven't seen a Thief show up in the top 5 spot ever on a parse of HNM, and we do parse our kills. The ones that are too long to parse, well guess how much melee are engaging on that? Have you really lost your marbles or simply arguing theorycrafting?

Banalaty wrote:


We could /nin for def. We could /rng and /ra. We could /drg for an ideal haste build and jumps/hate loss. We can /dnc/ for support and/or easy sh*t. We could even /sam and still be effective moreso than now. Hell we could see some interesting uses from /cor honestly and a return or Thf/Drk for zergs with an extra ~38-43% increase to attack speed over now. These are all significant boosts to specific situations we can cater towards far better than we can now. Currently the tradeoffs are far to skewed to make use of all the great tools we could. We can /war to gain offense....but sacrifice offense.....and defense. Now why the hell would we ever do that? We can sacrifice offense and defense for STP/Sekka/Med...thats stupid. And on down the line. /nin is far to potent compared to every other sub to the point that we cant justify using them.

Right now, any boost of any other sub is completely and dominantly overshadowed by how damn effective DW is. The combo of huge DD boost and best defense bar none binds us to /nin. One way to "balance" thf is by opening up subs without crippling BOTH our defense (Shadows) and offense (DW). Native DW would do that. Its not that DW would make us all cool and everyone would want a thf. Its that DW cuts our ties to /nin as best def and offense and gives us LOTS of new options/tools. Look at just how friggin versatile Sam is because of its ability to use ANY sub job. /drg, /war, /nin, /dnc, /rng to name a few can augment sam to fit niche roles in a variety of situations. We talk about versatility being a premier trait of thf, imagine if we could use more than 1 damn sub job.

But alas, we are forever destined not to be a thf, but a thf/nin.


I don't disagree with these points. But you all need to ask yourself one question:


If you could get just one thing from Square Enix to balance out the equation of our job right now, would changes to dual-wield be it?

I'd rather have at least 5 or 6 other areas of adjustment beyond higher tiers of dual-wield.
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#18 Aug 31 2010 at 7:45 PM Rating: Excellent
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TheBarrister wrote:
If you could get just one thing from Square Enix to balance out the equation of our job right now, would changes to dual-wield be it?


It would be a start. But there is more than one area that THF needs DD adjustment imo.

Quote:

I'd rather have at least 5 or 6 other areas of adjustment beyond higher tiers of dual-wield.


I don't disagree with that either. I think the negative sentiment here is that they said they were giving us something that we know to be a powerful trait, only to give something nearly useless. Less than Sub job level DW by 99 is a joke.

I'm not so much concerned about THF getting the dual wield trait or not. I am concerned with the fact that THF does need some useful changes, and we get useles garbage like DWI at 83. You can't blame people for being unhappy about that.

I don't know why, but I'm holding out a bit of hope left over for the other job adjustments they haven't announced yet.

Edited, Aug 31st 2010 9:46pm by ThiefKiller
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#19 Sep 01 2010 at 7:08 AM Rating: Excellent
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I'm happy with my tp burn damage. S-E doesn't need to do anything for us there. The problem is that DW1 doesn't help me where I need assistance the most. DW 3 or 4 would have been a big upgrade in the HNM department whereas DW I thf/war is almost the same as dagger/shield thf/war. Last update S-E gave dancer DW IV and then after dangling dual wield in front of our faces this update they give us DW 1 instead. It feels like unequal treatment which is why people are bitter; it's a letdown. Thief is a great job and I love it to death but it needs help to cope with the change in player mentality over how we handle high end mobs and none of the updates we've gotten have offered a solution. Even if I had dual wield IV or III naturally I'd still sub /nin when I was tp burning just for utsusemi (like many monks do now). But I'd at least have a better solution to high end mobs where /war is viable to begin with. The problem is that while I'm a major TP burn DD I'm nearly crippled at HNM. The only real damage I get off is my SA and TA plus my infrequent shark bites and that isn't enough. The 2 handed jobs are so much stronger that they destroy me thus leaving me on the sidelines.

Since any 90 job/45 thief will get TH2 next update I'm expecting our TH 3 trait in December. Unfortunately TH3 still won't solve my problem being stuck on the sidelines, it'll only maintain my current status of "TH whore". Now I like the addition of native TH3. Contrary to what the board may imply I enjoy having TH II +2 and I love my drop rate. But we should expect TH3 just like RDM should expect refresh 2. If you swap me into a fight at 5% HP I can hit the mob once and fulfill my task for the whole fight (this can be done by a naked mule equally well). It's not fun to stand on the sidelines and WATCH your linkshell fight an epic battle only to hit it a few times and be done. Unfortunately I don't have enough other redeeming qualities to warrant fighting the mob more so that's what often happens. Because of this my great blessing is also my greatest curse; taking me out of all the action and by consequence, all the fun. Hate control is well and good but it's largely irrelevant at HNM when paladin's can cap their hate. Truthfully collaborater/accomplice serve me better when I'm tp burning than they do when I'm fighting a HNM. Treasure hunter IS a part of my job and I wouldn't ever want to give it up, but right now it's the only thing people want me for against high level NM's and I want to actually FIGHT the mob rather than just watch.

Summarizing that I like having treasure hunter and I think thief is an awesome job. A well played thief is always worthy of a DD spot in a burn. Unfortunately it's no fun at all in the HNM department because my only role people REALLY care about is treasure hunter and I can do that without even fighting. Unfortunately the updates s-e has given me have done nothing to change that. I'll get DW III from /nin at 90 so I don't need anything more to tp burn with (and I'd be /nin then even if I had a higher DW trait myself), but thief/war with dual wield I is not a very big change from thf/war with dagger/shield thus a dual wield as weak as this is useless to me.

Edited, Sep 1st 2010 10:38am by Melphina
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#20 Sep 01 2010 at 8:13 AM Rating: Good
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I hope if SE hears what the good thf have to say they will change what there doing.
#21 Sep 01 2010 at 9:43 AM Rating: Decent
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Mistress Melphina wrote:
Last update S-E gave dancer DW IV and then after dangling dual wield in front of our faces this update they give us DW 1 instead. It feels like unequal treatment which is why people are bitter; it's a letdown.


I completely agree. I didn't post on this because it simply didn't surprise me that SE would do this to Thief.

Mistress Melphina wrote:

I'm happy with my tp burn damage and I don't think s-e needs to do anything for us in that department.


Agreed, although TP burns aren't really what they used to be. Beating on a mob for 10seconds in Abyssea isn't equivalent to 40 second engagements (or more) on Greater Colibri. Part of where we used to shine was spike damage in the form of SA+WS, TA+WS, SATA+WS, SA, TA, WS separated, etc. It's very hard to land most of those besides TA and WS separated, and I believe this is an area SE could adjust and should adjust (for Thief main job only).

Mistress Melphina wrote:

DW 3 or 4 would have been a big upgrade in the HNM department whereas DW I thf/war is almost the same as dagger/shield thf/war.


I don't agree it's going to be as big of an upgrade as you think it is, and I do not agree that Dual-Wield is the area SE needs to focus on adjusting for balancing Thief in the HNM department at all. I think more utility is needed so that we have a unique place on HNM besides "hey you thief make sure you hit it at least once for TH but we could care less about your damage when there are decked out 2 handers here that trump you, or BLM, or SMN, or RNG...or GET OFF THE MOB OMG STOP FEEDING TP".




Mistress Melphina wrote:

Thief is a great job and I love it to death but it needs help to cope with the change in player mentality over how we handle high end mobs and none of the updates we've gotten have offered a solution. Even if I had dual wield IV or III naturally I'd still sub /nin when I was tp burning just for utsusemi (like many monks do now). But I'd at least have a better solution to high end mobs where /war is viable to begin with. Thief doesn't need any adjustments against tp burn mobs at all. The problem is that I'm a major TP burn DD but nearly crippled at HNM. SA and TA plus my infrequent shark bites don't cut it. The 2 handed jobs are so much stronger that they destroy me thus leaving me on the sidelines. Since any 90 job/45 thief will get TH2 next update I'm expecting our TH 3 trait in December. Unfortunately TH3 still won't solve my problem being stuck on the sidelines, it'll only maintain my current status of "TH whore". Now I like the addition of native TH3. Contrary to what the board may imply I enjoy having TH II +2 and I love my drop rate. But we should expect TH3 just like RDM should expect refresh 2. TH is my greatest curse as well as my great blessing. If you swap me into a fight at 5% HP I can hit the mob once and fulfill my task for the whole fight (this can be done by a naked mule equally well). It's not fun to stand on the sidelines and WATCH your linkshell fight an epic battle only to hit it a few times and be done. Unfortunately that's we're reduced to most times, so my great blessing also takes me out of all the action and by consequence, all the fun. Hate control is well and good but it's largely irrelevant at HNM when paladin's can cap their hate and my collaborater/accomplice serves me better when I'm tp burning than it does against a HNM because of this.

I like having treasure hunter and I think thief is an awesome job. A well played thief is always worthy of a DD spot in a burn. Unfortunately it's no fun at all in the HNM department because my only role people REALLY care about is treasure hunter and I can do that without even fighting. Unfortunately the updates s-e has given me have done nothing to change that. I'll get DW III from /nin at 90 so I don't need anything more to tp burn with (and I'd be /nin then even if I had a higher DW trait myself), but thief/war with dual wield I is not a very big change from thf/war with dagger/shield thus a dual wield as weak as this is useless to me.


Unfortunately this is the case and I have to agree with you. This has been my experience too. Even when it's a "bring the job you like" event, I still question why some people in my linkshell come Thief when we already have a thief and they also have a more useful job (Bard, Corsair, Dancer, Red Mage....<insert 10 more jobs>).

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#22 Sep 01 2010 at 10:28 AM Rating: Default
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I'm already on record with my objections to requests for THF DD enhancements, so I won't rehash it.

The one unqualified benefit of this change is: it allows THF to offhand TK with any SJ.
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#23 Sep 01 2010 at 2:03 PM Rating: Good
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Honestly, that is the 1st thing I thought of as well RVW, sad as it is. (way to sub default a completely neutral post just because RVW was devils advocate in an old thread. Sheesh. Intelligent representation from the other side of the table is always needed no matter the debate.) I just hope there is something changed so we dont have to use that POS dagger at lv 99. I remember the complaints about how it "sucked" for DD back before teh dagger update, or the interview that SE stated in plain english that you only have to stick TH once etc.

Lv99 that thing is going to be about as effective as a bee stinger. I keep trying to think of things that could be done to prevent us from having to use it and dealing with the swapping in/out of a retardedly bad dagger especially for shorter fights (farming etc). If they add a TK#2 later on, we would just be expected to DW them which just sucks more. There are only 2 things i can think of.

1. TK gets on magian trial for beefed up POWA. +damage, -delay, +stats etc to make it a reasonable DD dagger. (huge pain in the ass overall unless it also happens to be a GREAT dagger when its all done).

2. TK 2.0 is released later on and is an OK dagger designed for lv 99 AND it somehow shares a rare/ex type tag that prevents them from keeping both.

3. Nothing happens and we have to use that POS at lv 99 for everything. -_-

I would far prefer 2, but theres no real precedent for a new item preventing an old, non-rare/ex item from being kept/used unless they somehow tweak the JA so that the new dagger's +TH overrides or cancels the old TKs in some way. /shrug.

As for the rehashed debates, I think (at least the 2 of us from the last thread) have some understanding, we just disagree on player perception. Your point that only something extreme to the point of broken has sweeping effects on general perception and we dont want that to happen (nice for a day, bad for years) is true. Anything SE does will either flip flop the flavor of the month, or will go unnoticed by the general playerbase and we dont want to be flavor of the month. I fully agree with that. We cant have a "balanced" change that will impact the overall perception overnight.

I cant speak for the rest of the board, but i personally dont give a rats ass if people dont "think" im good at HNMs if I actually am good in that situation (in either damage and/or utility). I can fight my little battle for a place in a fight with my LS and people i hang with. But if we really DO suck at HNMs (damage and/or utility), then i cant really do much about it (like right now). I guess ive always just been a functional person. If it is functional, i really dont care if other people "believe" it or not. If something as a statement of fact works, their "belief" in it working is irrelevant from my perspective. I dont mind being a misunderstood class. I mind being a class that actually sucks in this situation (and i realize thf is not the only one in this boat).

Edited, Sep 1st 2010 4:06pm by Banalaty
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#24 Sep 01 2010 at 8:00 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm already on record with my objections to requests for THF DD enhancements love of SE's pen0r,


ftfy

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I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#25 Sep 01 2010 at 9:44 PM Rating: Good
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I don't think thief is terribly broken against HNM's, it's just that the one fatal flaw is so large it cannot be overcome. By level 99 we should have dual wield II and I'd be OK with that for damage. Thief/war with dual wield II and berserk/aggressor won't stand toe to toe with the heavy hitters, but it's close enough for me to be satisfied. Dual wield is a start to fixing our handicap at HNM, but the biggest underlying issue is not our damage but our TP feed. If I was allowed to melee a HNM like the 2 handers are I could throw out some pretty nifty weaponskills alongside average/passable DoT. That would be enough for me. However THIS is the REAL problem problem I'm stuck with

Quote:
I don't agree it's going to be as big of an upgrade as you think it is, and I do not agree that Dual-Wield is the area SE needs to focus on adjusting for balancing Thief in the HNM department at all. I think more utility is needed so that we have a unique place on HNM besides "hey you thief make sure you hit it at least once for TH but we could care less about your damage when there are decked out 2 handers here that trump you, or BLM, or SMN, or RNG...or GET OFF THE MOB OMG STOP FEEDING TP".


As quoted on the wiki here
Quote:

Enemies gain TP in the following ways:

* When attacking a player, TP is calculated normally based on Delay. Most enemies have 240 Delay, and gain 6.4 TP per hit.
* When hit by a melee attack, enemies gain the attacker's Base TP + 3.
* When hit by a spell that does direct damage, enemies gain 10 TP.
* When hit by a physical Blue Magic spell, enemies gain 10 TP for every hit that connects.


THAT is the problem. My melee DoT strikes don't deal significant damage but they DO feed tp at an alarmingly fast rate. If a 2 hander hit a mob 5 times to tp to 100% the mob would have approximately 90-100% TP. The 2 handers get a 5 hit with sTP traits which don't interfere with the mob's tp gain thus it's almost a 1/1 ratio. However when I hit the mob I will feed approximately 2 more tp per swing than I get even with sTP gear and I'll take about 18 swings to hit 100%. That's an additional ~~40 tp fed to the mob beyond what a 2 hander would have fed while dealing about 30-50% the amount of actual damage to do it. It's inefficient and these bad boys pack a punch. Their tp attacks are DANGEROUS so I'm often forbidden from engaging for this reason.

Now I would have argued before that some job traits are defining characteristics of XYZ job so giving them to ABC job would be unfair, but s-e has broken that with the level increase. Sub job convert/refresh 1, dual wield IV on dancer and now DW 1 on thf and blu (via spells), old traits added to other jobs, etc etc. So I'm just going to say it. I want subtle blow, and I want a lot of it. The highest subtle blow trait is 25% and subtle blow caps at 50%. Another idea is a stance that Lobi has proposed in the past. I would be all for a stance to reduce our attack speed in exchange for significantly reducing the amount of tp fed to the mob (a reasonable attack speed reduction). This isn't game breaking because less attack speed is akin to adding slow, thus it would be a HNM stance only. THIS is the type of utility I think thief needs in order to be allowed more action at hnm. Even if it doesn't improve our damage if we aren't a threat to causing a wipe from our tp feed at least we may be allowed to fight the battle. There are many well geared thieves who could still put up reasonable numbers at HNM if we were only allowed to engage.

Summarizing that:
I think dual wield II (@99) is a good start to help fix thief at HNM and that thief is not THAT broken. However dual wield isn't enough, S-E needs to address the bigger underlying problem that we feed too much tp to warrant our DoT. If we had a significant amount of subtle blow or a stance that reduced our attack speed (reasonably) while significantly decreasing the amount of tp we feed to the mob (or both!!) it would be a really big step in the right direction. I am well geared; I CAN deal respectable damage if I have proper buffs but I will feed too much tp to make it worthwhile. If the only updates thief were to get from now until level 99 were Treasure Hunter 3, critical hit attack bonus increases, Dual wield II, and both a stance to trade speed for tp feed reduction and subtle blow V I'd be satisfied. I'll never be the ideal DD against a HNM and that's FINE. As long as I'm allowed to engage the mob I could still put up decent numbers and I'd have a lot more fun fighting alongside my colleagues. If it meant people would still joke about my damage but actually let me fight... well I could live with that.

Edited, Sep 1st 2010 11:53pm by Melphina
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#26 Sep 02 2010 at 11:07 AM Rating: Decent
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7,094 posts
Banalaty wrote:
I keep trying to think of things that could be done to prevent us from having to use it and dealing with the swapping in/out of a retardedly bad dagger especially for shorter fights (farming etc). If they add a TK#2 later on, we would just be expected to DW them which just sucks more. There are only 2 things i can think of.

1. TK gets on magian trial for beefed up POWA. +damage, -delay, +stats etc to make it a reasonable DD dagger. (huge pain in the ass overall unless it also happens to be a GREAT dagger when its all done).

2. TK 2.0 is released later on and is an OK dagger designed for lv 99 AND it somehow shares a rare/ex type tag that prevents them from keeping both.

3. Nothing happens and we have to use that POS at lv 99 for everything. -_-

I would far prefer 2, but theres no real precedent for a new item preventing an old, non-rare/ex item from being kept/used unless they somehow tweak the JA so that the new dagger's +TH overrides or cancels the old TKs in some way. /shrug.

Bandit's Knife
(Dagger) All Races
DMG:42 DLY:194
Latent Effect: Treasure Hunter+1
Lv.94 THF

Latent effect is activated any time Thief's Knife is not equipped. (Of course, given the highly superstitious nature of the FFXI community, SE would need to spell this out explicitly in some sort of announcement.)

Quote:
As for the rehashed debates, I think (at least the 2 of us from the last thread) have some understanding, we just disagree on player perception. Your point that only something extreme to the point of broken has sweeping effects on general perception and we dont want that to happen (nice for a day, bad for years) is true.

That's not my point at all.

My point is that I see DD enhancements as a temporary solution and, therefore, a waste of time. I certainly agree that THF deserves enhancements; I just believe that they (the enhancements) should be implemented so that the net impact of them is not contingent on how much damage another job is capable of dealing. The easiest way to do that is to enhance non-DD-related aspects of the job.
____________________________
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#27 Sep 02 2010 at 11:50 AM Rating: Good
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492 posts
redvenomweb wrote:
Banalaty wrote:
I keep trying to think of things that could be done to prevent us from having to use it and dealing with the swapping in/out of a retardedly bad dagger especially for shorter fights (farming etc). If they add a TK#2 later on, we would just be expected to DW them which just sucks more. There are only 2 things i can think of.

1. TK gets on magian trial for beefed up POWA. +damage, -delay, +stats etc to make it a reasonable DD dagger. (huge pain in the ass overall unless it also happens to be a GREAT dagger when its all done).

2. TK 2.0 is released later on and is an OK dagger designed for lv 99 AND it somehow shares a rare/ex type tag that prevents them from keeping both.

3. Nothing happens and we have to use that POS at lv 99 for everything. -_-

I would far prefer 2, but theres no real precedent for a new item preventing an old, non-rare/ex item from being kept/used unless they somehow tweak the JA so that the new dagger's +TH overrides or cancels the old TKs in some way. /shrug.

Bandit's Knife
(Dagger) All Races
DMG:42 DLY:194
Latent Effect: Treasure Hunter+1
Lv.94 THF

Latent effect is activated any time Thief's Knife is not equipped. (Of course, given the highly superstitious nature of the FFXI community, SE would need to spell this out explicitly in some sort of announcement.)

Quote:
As for the rehashed debates, I think (at least the 2 of us from the last thread) have some understanding, we just disagree on player perception. Your point that only something extreme to the point of broken has sweeping effects on general perception and we dont want that to happen (nice for a day, bad for years) is true.

That's not my point at all.

My point is that I see DD enhancements as a temporary solution and, therefore, a waste of time. I certainly agree that THF deserves enhancements; I just believe that they (the enhancements) should be implemented so that the net impact of them is not contingent on how much damage another job is capable of dealing. The easiest way to do that is to enhance non-DD-related aspects of the job.


We could only hope SE was clear on the bandit's knife, but it would work nicely. I've never asked, do you have any suggestions for the "Non DD enhancements"? Thinking of hate control I can only think of one or two things that would help at all without breaking us.
____________________________
THF on HNM attack in Binary. 10010110101
#28 Sep 02 2010 at 11:54 AM Rating: Excellent
***
2,270 posts
Quote:
Bandit's Knife
(Dagger) All Races
DMG:42 DLY:194
Latent Effect: Treasure Hunter+1
Lv.94 THF

Latent effect is activated any time Thief's Knife is not equipped. (Of course, given the highly superstitious nature of the FFXI community, SE would need to spell this out explicitly in some sort of announcement.)


I really like that work-around. Hadnt considered this type of solution, but its a good one. Second on the SE statement.
___________________________________
I am always open to more support/tactical abilities. I just honestly dont think SE can do it. They are smoking som good sh*t if they think despoil was a good idea. Well, rephrase: Despoil is a OKish IDEA. Alternate steal that debuffs an enemy. I can live with that. Implementation fails HARD as we all know. I cant remember the last time ANY support ability was added that was good for any job honestly (that wasnt just a 'next tier' of old stuff like refresh 2, ballad3, cure6 etc).

Collaborater seems to be the last succesful thing I can think of that was actually kinda cool, and even then it took them ages to get it right starting off with over-timed accomplice.

SE could, in theory, add boatloads of tactical support to thf, but I honestly dont think SE has the IQ to pull it off after the utter brainfart that is despoil (even though its not that complex). The one thing they do seem to like to do is buff DD. Its a more straightforward (though less elegant and less interesting) fix to the thf issue (if you can even call it a fix). I guess im just settling at this point for DD buffs because SE seems to feeble to have any idea what the playerbase wants besides damage. So if thats all they know, then ill take it.

I honestly dont expect SE to approach either side with any semblance of intelligence as our choices seem to be utter crap like despoil for support or DW1+Gust slash3+4 for DD, just dont do anything until you can hire something besides 13yo interns. I feel like its 2004 and I hate both candidates because I feel both would do a terribly inept job.

Had this been 3 years ago, i would be all optimistic that it will turn out all right in the end. Now Im with SES post. Weve all been broken to expect so little from SE that we cant imagine SE navigating this issue in any intelligent fashion.

Way to go SE. You fail so much your customers dont think you even CAN do better. I guess if you play dumb long enough people start to believe your retarded. I just cant believe someone got PAID to make despoil. PAID to make DW1. Who gets paid to turn out sh*t like that just doesnt work. How does one of the wolrds gaming behemoths noted for their stellar line of games stretching back 2 DECADES devolve into this completely retarded company that adds JAs that have NO PRACTICAL USE. Christ. Some people ACTUALLY sat at a meeting and said:

"You know what thf needs? Gust slash 4! It will be great! Oh and a new steal that doesnt stack with aura steal, steals FEWER items than steal (if thats possible), gives a mob a random debuff with no choice by the player or even telling the player what debuff it got, but...wont do anything if you dont succesfully steal anything, AND....lets not give HNMs anything to steal!" Someone got PAID to do this. A buncha people got PAID to come up with this bullsh*t. It unfathomable.

Heres a list i can come up with of simple things that would be infinitely better than wtf your creative team is smoking in 30 sec: GO!
*Alternate mug shared timer ability with stun effect
*Reverse collaborater (separate timer)
*Increased crit RATE trait
*backtrack SA to the original effective area. Anything outside frontal visual cone of mob

Well look at that. Theres a list of sh*t i can type out in 30 sec that would not overpower the job for DD (only max potential DD boost is crit rate), while adding a long timed emergency stun ability, better hate control that could actually adjust hate in a significant way by having separate timers. Thats a hate steal or hate plant eery 30 sec. That is significant. ALso frustration removal of landing SA (and possible return do oldschool fuidama to bring thf back up to hate plant king over DD/thf). This sh*t is NOT THAT COMPLEX. Would this make thf perfect? no. Would it be 4 easy steps to program that would be a huge leap in the general right direction? Helluva lot more than whatever SE is cooking right now i can tell you that.
Edited, Sep 2nd 2010 2:04pm by Banalaty

Edited, Sep 2nd 2010 2:13pm by Banalaty
Edit: /rant off.

Edited, Sep 2nd 2010 2:57pm by Banalaty
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Aanalaty, Mithra of San d'Oria
99Thf/99Drg/99Rng/95Pld/Secret Job 92
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#29 Sep 02 2010 at 12:44 PM Rating: Excellent
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7,094 posts
ElvaanTHF wrote:
I've never asked, do you have any suggestions for the "Non DD enhancements"? Thinking of hate control I can only think of one or two things that would help at all without breaking us.


- new JA: doubles enmity on next attack. (60s recast)
- Aura Steal affects Despoil and Mug, Despoil is moved to 60s timer (shared with Steal @ 5min), Mug recast is changed to 5min
- Collaborator/Accomplice recasts are halved
- Hide resets enmity* against any mob if you are not at the top of the hate list (unchanged otherwise)
- new JA stance: RACC+15%, RATK-15%. Increases debuff accuracy of status ammo. Gained at SJable level.
- SA/TA stay up until a qualifying hit has landed, like Feint (this is marginally a DD enhancement)
- Feint can be applied by a ranged attack

You could implement all of these at the same time and THF still wouldn't be "broken". You have to TRY REALLY HARD to break a job with non-DD related changes.

*Hide doesn't actually "reset" enmity unless you are at the top of the hate list; it just removes you from the list, but you get re-added at your original value when you attack again

Edited, Sep 2nd 2010 11:50am by redvenomweb
____________________________
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Viper Beam - ARC/CRP - Fabul
#30 Sep 02 2010 at 1:48 PM Rating: Good
**
492 posts
redvenomweb wrote:
ElvaanTHF wrote:
I've never asked, do you have any suggestions for the "Non DD enhancements"? Thinking of hate control I can only think of one or two things that would help at all without breaking us.


- new JA: doubles enmity on next attack. (60s recast)
- Aura Steal affects Despoil and Mug, Despoil is moved to 60s timer (shared with Steal @ 5min), Mug recast is changed to 5min
- Collaborator/Accomplice recasts are halved
- Hide resets enmity* against any mob if you are not at the top of the hate list (unchanged otherwise)
- new JA stance: RACC+15%, RATK-15%. Increases debuff accuracy of status ammo. Gained at SJable level.
- SA/TA stay up until a qualifying hit has landed, like Feint (this is marginally a DD enhancement)
- Feint can be applied by a ranged attack

You could implement all of these at the same time and THF still wouldn't be "broken". You have to TRY REALLY HARD to break a job with non-DD related changes.

*Hide doesn't actually "reset" enmity unless you are at the top of the hate list; it just removes you from the list, but you get re-added at your original value when you attack again

Edited, Sep 2nd 2010 11:50am by redvenomweb


I like the steal/mug/despoil things and the SATA/feint things, but I don't think personally that'd do anything to make us more desirable. Hate caps being what they are, I would love to see more ways of REMOVING hate from alliance members though.
____________________________
THF on HNM attack in Binary. 10010110101
#31 Sep 02 2010 at 1:54 PM Rating: Decent
Jack of All Trades
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28,999 posts
Quote:
Latent effect is activated any time Thief's Knife is not equipped. (Of course, given the highly superstitious nature of the FFXI community nigh-ineffectiveness of TH gear in general, SE would need to spell this out explicitly in some sort of announcement.)
#32 Sep 02 2010 at 3:25 PM Rating: Good
***
1,060 posts
redvenomweb wrote:
ElvaanTHF wrote:
I've never asked, do you have any suggestions for the "Non DD enhancements"? Thinking of hate control I can only think of one or two things that would help at all without breaking us.


- new JA: doubles enmity on next attack. (60s recast)
- Aura Steal affects Despoil and Mug, Despoil is moved to 60s timer (shared with Steal @ 5min), Mug recast is changed to 5min
- Collaborator/Accomplice recasts are halved
- Hide resets enmity* against any mob if you are not at the top of the hate list (unchanged otherwise)
- new JA stance: RACC+15%, RATK-15%. Increases debuff accuracy of status ammo. Gained at SJable level.
- SA/TA stay up until a qualifying hit has landed, like Feint (this is marginally a DD enhancement)
- Feint can be applied by a ranged attack

You could implement all of these at the same time and THF still wouldn't be "broken". You have to TRY REALLY HARD to break a job with non-DD related changes.

*Hide doesn't actually "reset" enmity unless you are at the top of the hate list; it just removes you from the list, but you get re-added at your original value when you attack again

Edited, Sep 2nd 2010 11:50am by redvenomweb


I think your ideas are cool. But I disagree that, other than making our lives a bit more fun, they would make THF -desired- for them.

I am not of the mind that we need either a DD update OR a Support role update. We realistically need both. Becuase to use our support abilities, we need to be engaging and hitting the mob. The only way that is ever going to be ok on high level mobs is if A: We do enough damage to them to warrant the slot over a MUCH better DD or B: we don't feed such ridiculous TP.

We are not competing for support role or mage slots, THF is competing for DD slots. We do not have enough support abilities to be considered a support class. We are a mediocre DD with some even more mediocre (if completeley undesired) support abilities.

I am of the mind that we will only have more opportunities to use our support abilities when it is not so out of the question for a THF to DD an HNM. Because as it stands now, you could add all the shoop de woop in the world to our enmity abilities, and it would not be worth sacrificing a real DD in that slot.

Edited, Sep 2nd 2010 5:26pm by ThiefKiller
____________________________
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THF99/BRD99
#33 Sep 02 2010 at 3:25 PM Rating: Decent
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7,094 posts
ElvaanTHF wrote:
I like the steal/mug/despoil things and the SATA/feint things, but I don't think personally that'd do anything to make us more desirable.

Let me ask you this:

If Accomplice was on a 15sec timer and could be used on alliance members, would that make THF more desirable?
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#34 Sep 03 2010 at 3:46 AM Rating: Good
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1,060 posts
ThiefKiller wrote:
I don't know why, but I'm holding out a bit of hope left over for the other job adjustments they haven't announced yet.


I know why. I musta been HIGH out of my @#%^ing mind.
____________________________
Nebo
THF99/BRD99
#35 Sep 03 2010 at 4:08 AM Rating: Good
***
1,778 posts
Quote:
1. TK gets on magian trial for beefed up POWA. +damage, -delay, +stats etc to make it a reasonable DD dagger. (huge pain in the ass overall unless it also happens to be a GREAT dagger when its all done).

2. TK 2.0 is released later on and is an OK dagger designed for lv 99 AND it somehow shares a rare/ex type tag that prevents them from keeping both.

3. Nothing happens and we have to use that POS at lv 99 for everything. -_-


I thought about this as well a while back, and I figured there was actually another option. One that SE may, however, not use.

The idea is that they could just add a lot of TH+ gear. A leg piece that has TH+3, a foot piece with TH+2, a body with TH+8 etc (Whether the pieces are rank 1 for dps or not doesn't really matter, they're easier to swap in and out). From there, all the new bosses they add to the game, they work out some math and create a drop rate/drop table that mathematically roughly equals what bosses today drop even with the new TH gear. Then, all the old bosses suddenly have a significantly higher drop rate, and people can play catch up through the levels more easily, while the new bosses still maintain whatever effective drop rate SE wants to use.

At that point, having TH+25 and an assumed extra tier of the Treasure Hunter job trait, no one will really "care" about the whole TH+1 on Thief Knife. TH+25 & Treasure Hunter job trait 3 & solid LV99 worthy weapons vs TH+26 & Treasure Hunter job trait 3 & a crappy weapon that no one finds value in because of the TP/dmg loss swapping to it
____________________________
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99RDM/99MNK/99THF/90Druid
#36 Sep 03 2010 at 4:22 AM Rating: Good
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492 posts
redvenomweb wrote:
ElvaanTHF wrote:
I like the steal/mug/despoil things and the SATA/feint things, but I don't think personally that'd do anything to make us more desirable.

Let me ask you this:

If Accomplice was on a 15sec timer and could be used on alliance members, would that make THF more desirable?


For alot of fights, absolutely I think. Maybe not in a burn, but good THFs were are fine in burns anyway, not the best, but fine.

EDIT: lolAdverb

Edited, Sep 4th 2010 4:03am by ElvaanTHF
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THF on HNM attack in Binary. 10010110101
#37 Sep 03 2010 at 5:32 AM Rating: Good
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Torzak, I think that is a decently clever idea, at least if modified a bit. Of course, some people will not want old gear to become so easily obtainable, myself included. But it looks like lately SE has been quick to discard a lot of classical gear and be in with the new. Only beef I got w/ the idea is that it would make people a bit too dependent on thieves for drops. I know thieves should be at fights, but the closer to a thief being a necessity rather than an added bonus, could be a bad thing. I guess there is a cutoff point, somewhere where they're desired enough but not technically required.

I don't really want the draw of "thief" to be TH, just an added bonus. I think thief, I think a rogue. The stealing is only part of it really. SE prolly could have done a bit to make TH'ing something requiring skill to be good at, rather than a passive trait that requires little other than attendance and afk'ing to activate.

I wouldn't be opposed to new TH+ gear so long as it's not a weapon. But we might as well equally be due a trait. The pro of the trait would be that we don't have to carry extra gear (I'm having a hell of a time myself); the con would be that less hardcore players would have access to the stuff. *shrug*

Edit: Oh yeah, also as it stands, pure TH+ in crazy quantities like that would be a bit more broken than you think. Mostly in the department of things with incredibly low drop rates, like defending ring. It'd basically
turn D. Ring from like a once a year if even drop rate, into more than once a month.

Edited, Sep 5th 2010 3:53am by Shamaya
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#38 Sep 03 2010 at 7:08 PM Rating: Default
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Quote:
For alot of fights, absolutely I think. Maybe not in a burn, but good THFs were fine in burns anyway, not the best, but fine.


You think a fully merited Feint is all you need to be a good THF?
#39 Sep 03 2010 at 7:16 PM Rating: Good
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492 posts
Fynlar wrote:
Quote:
For alot of fights, absolutely I think. Maybe not in a burn, but good THFs were fine in burns anyway, not the best, but fine.


You think a fully merited Feint is all you need to be a good THF?


Not going to lie, I'm not even sure how you pulled that rabbit out of your hat Bullwinkle. Red and I were talking a 15 second alliance wide accomplice, which while amazing, would sadly be broken.
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THF on HNM attack in Binary. 10010110101
#40 Sep 03 2010 at 11:34 PM Rating: Good
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3,772 posts
Quote:
At that point, having TH+25 and an assumed extra tier of the Treasure Hunter job trait, no one will really "care" about the whole TH+1 on Thief Knife. TH+25 & Treasure Hunter job trait 3 & solid LV99 worthy weapons vs TH+26 & Treasure Hunter job trait 3 & a crappy weapon that no one finds value in because of the TP/dmg loss swapping to it


Of course they'll care, more drops is more drops no matter how small the edge is over time. People would still take the TH + 26 with the sh*tty weapon.

Edited, Sep 4th 2010 1:37am by Melphina
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#41 Sep 04 2010 at 12:09 AM Rating: Decent
Thief's Knife
*****
15,049 posts
Torzak wrote:


The idea is that they could just add a lot of TH+ gear. A leg piece that has TH+3, a foot piece with TH+2, a body with TH+8 etc (Whether the pieces are rank 1 for dps or not doesn't really matter, they're easier to swap in and out). From there, all the new bosses they add to the game, they work out some math and create a drop rate/drop table that mathematically roughly equals what bosses today drop even with the new TH gear. Then, all the old bosses suddenly have a significantly higher drop rate, and people can play catch up through the levels more easily, while the new bosses still maintain whatever effective drop rate SE wants to use.

At that point, having TH+25 and an assumed extra tier of the Treasure Hunter job trait, no one will really "care" about the whole TH+1 on Thief Knife. TH+25 & Treasure Hunter job trait 3 & solid LV99 worthy weapons vs TH+26 & Treasure Hunter job trait 3 & a crappy weapon that no one finds value in because of the TP/dmg loss swapping to it


So instead of being forced to just wear Assassin's Armlets now I'll be forced to wear a whole bunch more sh*tty gear.

No thanks.
____________________________
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Adjust the resolution of menus.
The main screen resolution for "FINAL FANTASY XI" is dependent on the "Overlay Graphics Resolution" setting.
If the Overlay Graphics Resolution is set higher than the Menu Resolution, menus will be automatically resized.


I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#42 Sep 04 2010 at 1:39 AM Rating: Default
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Quote:
Not going to lie, I'm not even sure how you pulled that rabbit out of your hat Bullwinkle. Red and I were talking a 15 second alliance wide accomplice, which while amazing, would sadly be broken.


You said "were" though, leading me to assume the 15 second Accomplice wasn't even a factor in your THF evaluation.
#43 Sep 04 2010 at 2:03 AM Rating: Excellent
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492 posts
Fynlar wrote:
Quote:
Not going to lie, I'm not even sure how you pulled that rabbit out of your hat Bullwinkle. Red and I were talking a 15 second alliance wide accomplice, which while amazing, would sadly be broken.


You said "were" though, leading me to assume the 15 second Accomplice wasn't even a factor in your THF evaluation.


I still fail to see how feint ties into this at all, "Were fine" Are fine" neither one implies Feint being the only thing necessary to being a good THF, or have I been drinking a wee bit much tonight?

EDIT: Also, Lob I believe the point was to make the +1 from the knife less valued. I think we would all rather hit a macro to swap in a full set of armor as opposed to having to constantly put on and take off a weapon.

But as mentioned above, surely most LS will demand the knife AND the gear if that were the exact scenario.

Edited, Sep 4th 2010 4:05am by ElvaanTHF
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#44 Sep 04 2010 at 9:31 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
I still fail to see how feint ties into this at all, "Were fine" Are fine" neither one implies Feint being the only thing necessary to being a good THF, or have I been drinking a wee bit much tonight?


You said "good THFs were fine in burns"

In a burn, you are only there for Feint and TH. Every THF already has TH (and has no effect on the outcome of the fight regardless); Feint is something they may or may not have (even though all of them should). Anything else you think you're there for is a delusion, really.

THF can be a decent overall DD if they try, but simply put, they are not an ideal choice for pushing out as much damage as possible in a short amount of time, which is what you want optimized in a burn. The only thing THF has to offer offense-wise that burns want is Feint (which any heehaw can merit and apply on a mob without hassle), hence my wondering at what it is other than that which you think makes "good" THFs good for a burn.

Edited, Sep 4th 2010 11:34am by Fynlar
#45 Sep 04 2010 at 10:19 AM Rating: Good
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3,772 posts
Quote:

THF can be a decent overall DD if they try, but simply put, they are not an ideal choice for pushing out as much damage as possible in a short amount of time, which is what you want optimized in a burn. The only thing THF has to offer offense-wise that burns want is Feint (which any heehaw can merit and apply on a mob without hassle), hence my wondering at what it is other than that which you think makes "good" THFs good for a burn.


Perhaps I'm misreading you Fynlar, but if you're talking about a TP burn against normal mobs thief can be one of the top tier DD's. If you're talking about zerging a HNM... well then that's different. However when we both gear and play intelligently we can put up some crazy damage if we don't hold back on our job ability timers. Traditionally most thieves will only use sneak and trick attack to weaponskill with (many of which will be wearing a thief knife offhand). Even if you have good gear this is not the way to use thief in a tp burn to push your damage. I merited my sneak attack recast timers 5 times, so it's up every 50 seconds aside from my 1 minute ta timer. I have a dedicated sneak and trick attack set that I swap into to raise the damage of each of these criticals and I use them as my timers allow. If I'm going to have tp and a critical timer at near the same time I'll stack a weaponskill, but if I have to wait 10-15 seconds for both SA and TA I'll solo the weaponskill immediately then use the critical ability later. Using tp immediately is coommon understanding when you're burning, but using critical abilities immediately ISN'T as common. My tp set is pretty solid. flam/tnhunder kila, fire bomblet/xbow, love torque, toreadors, rajas, skadi's and homam etc etc. If I'm equally buffed with the other melees I can built tp really fast, but my sa/ta sets set me apart from the thieves that don't use them. My sneak attack macro increases my dex by 50, stength by 29, and raises attack by about 30 but I also added my skadi's visor and aurora feet + my ASA pants with 3% haste/crtit damage + 3% to it to maintain 9% haste (heca slow is terrible when you aren't weaponskilling, even for one single attack). This gets the critical off quickly and my ta set has similat mechanisms to increase damage while keeping speed; skadi's visor and suppa for example.

If I'm paying attention and I use my sneak and trick attack timers as they come up while swapping to their dedicated solo sets, and solo my dancing edges in my weaponskill set or stack if timers align, then I can put up some monstrous damage if we're talking about any abyssea exp alliance type of burn. Now granted I have taken the time to get the gear necessary to make it work, and its the rarest stuff in the game, but following the same principal you can pull off good and even great damage with slightly lesser gear if you do the same thing. Thief may not be ideal to fight HNM's with, but I am one of the strongest TP burn melees you can bring, and others who play the same as me will attest that thief can put up some serious burn damage. If we're equally buffed my thief outdamages any average 2 hander badly and keeps up with the really good ones toe to toe. That's the effect of my playstyle though; it's just very effective against lesser mobs.
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#46 Sep 04 2010 at 12:18 PM Rating: Good
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Fynlar wrote:
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I still fail to see how feint ties into this at all, "Were fine" Are fine" neither one implies Feint being the only thing necessary to being a good THF, or have I been drinking a wee bit much tonight?


You said "good THFs were fine in burns"

In a burn, you are only there for Feint and TH. Every THF already has TH (and has no effect on the outcome of the fight regardless); Feint is something they may or may not have (even though all of them should). Anything else you think you're there for is a delusion, really.

THF can be a decent overall DD if they try, but simply put, they are not an ideal choice for pushing out as much damage as possible in a short amount of time, which is what you want optimized in a burn. The only thing THF has to offer offense-wise that burns want is Feint (which any heehaw can merit and apply on a mob without hassle), hence my wondering at what it is other than that which you think makes "good" THFs good for a burn.

Edited, Sep 4th 2010 11:34am by Fynlar


You could check my equipment sets if you'd like on ffxiah I guess. On burn stuff (IE: Limbus, Dyna, Exp) I actually come @2 DD on my LS parse, below the Amano every gear imaginable SAM and above the Usu Body/Feet, speed belt, etc, etc SAM. Of course this is provided I get the same buffs, as even the DRK who was over 12k dmg below me on a Temenos - North run comes far ahead if he has marches and chaos roll when I do not. It takes a sh*t ton more work than the other DD, but THF sare fine in a burn and as a rule, TH isn't needed. Feint isn't technically either since everyone has capped acc or close to it, which is why I tend to pop Feint between mobs as much as possible, the allow the JA pause to not mess up my TP phase.

Edited, Sep 4th 2010 2:38pm by ElvaanTHF
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#47 Sep 04 2010 at 1:21 PM Rating: Good
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Yeah fyn, mixing up burns. Usually around here thf saying burn=merit style burn where we perform superbly if geared/played well (though that takes more effort to do than many DDs). Your talking HNM zerg/TP burn type things where we suck terribly and you are right in that we are there primarily for TH+Feint as we cant possibly keep up with timers attached to our spike damage, no damaging 2hour, and no hasso to get our haste up to cap like other DDs.
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#48 Sep 04 2010 at 7:50 PM Rating: Good
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I thought I might be misreading Fyn. I just call HNM burns "zergs" as opposed to "burns". Everyone else I do things with uses the same terminology so it's good to be sure.

Edited, Sep 4th 2010 9:51pm by Melphina
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#49 Sep 04 2010 at 9:22 PM Rating: Decent
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Yeah my bad, I wasn't talking about a TP burn for EXP purposes, was thinking more of HNM >_>
#50 Sep 05 2010 at 1:52 AM Rating: Good
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Fynlar wrote:
Yeah my bad, I wasn't talking about a TP burn for EXP purposes, was thinking more of HNM >_>


Oh yeah, on a zerg feint is good enough to allow one THF, but everyone always brings one THF anyway for TH onry.
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#51Erecia, Posted: Sep 05 2010 at 10:34 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) When BLUs got only dual wield 1, and had to set some pretty lousy traits for it, there was some disappointment but we got over it.
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