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THFs rejoice! Native DW for you in September update!Follow

#27 Aug 25 2010 at 4:25 PM Rating: Decent
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Mistress Melphina wrote:
+ Sekkanoki


SA + Mercy Stroke

TA + Mercy Stroke

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redvenomweb wrote:
Unless THF natively gets DW3 (at least), /NIN will still be the SJ of choice.


This.

Grandlethal wrote:
I am going to remain on the fence until I see what level they give... I can see SE giving us DW1 at 70 and putting in some clause that makes it so DW from subjobs do not overwrite our native DW... SE is slightly sadistic likes to kick THF in the balls whenever possible, so it fits with the MO.


This basically, only change it to "TP Floor removal" "2H buff" "Astral Ring change" ect.



Edited, Aug 25th 2010 7:33pm by Lobivopis
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I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#28 Aug 25 2010 at 5:04 PM Rating: Good
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Interestingly enough, if THF DW is subbable, BLU just got a significant boost.
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#29 Aug 25 2010 at 5:04 PM Rating: Excellent
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Maybe its just me...but I can't see myself subbing /war for anything other than tanked fights (HNMs etc), which I am fine with.

In events like limbus, dyna, Abysea, meripo etc, anything other than a TAWS will probably get you killed unless you are swapping out to a max evasion set, holding damage, TP or all of the above. Any one of which would really chew into the damage bonus /war gives anyway. Plus we all know how much tp burn DD's love to be trick attacked amirite?

/goodbye to using collaborator or accomplice at all.

Whereas if I am /nin, I can still idle in my regular TP gear and maybe cast a Ni before another DD grabs hate.

I am still not convinced that THF will get a significant DW trait, although I am hopeful. IF its not AT LEAST 3+, its useless. But SE loves to give us useless crap (Hai2u Despoil) so I am quite skeptical.
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#30 Aug 25 2010 at 6:29 PM Rating: Default
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Not really the adjustment to the job that is needed at this point.


(Should have happened earlier instead of/with Dancer. Still not going to change much.)
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#31 Aug 25 2010 at 8:20 PM Rating: Excellent
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I don't think our old way of thinking during old events will be applicable for too long. We're going to be level 85 soon and lvl 90 before years end meaning older mobs will miss us more often and hit for less damage as they become lower and lower on the relative scale. Meanwhile we can crank up the DD stats with no concern of accuracy and tear them apart. Subbing /war in limbus may be safe by level 90 with stuff dying before it gets off many attacks. Healers and support classes are growing just as fast as we are with stronger gear and spells. The ability to recover from and mitigate damage dealt by level 75 events should be child's play by the end of the grind. We're talking about a group of level 85-90 (and one day higher) players taking on decent challenge level mobs with level 90+ abilities, gear, and spells. Much of the NEW content is stripping us of our utsusemi dependency. Abyssea experience alliances... you get more exp per individual whilst having a freaking alliance to cover your ****. 18 people versus a few mobs means you don't NEED utsusemi if your group is balanced. New Notorious Mobs, many of which completely bypass utsusemi have been added. There are NM's where utsusemi is required (Megantereon anyone?) and NM's where utsusemi won't do crap as the nm's that use -ga's attacks use a lot of them (almost exclusively in some instances).

FFXI is going through a revolutionary phase and I have a feeling that by level 99 the game will be nothing like it was at 75. S-E is releasing powerful buffs and spreading them across all the job classes while simultaneously taking the NM's to new levels. Sub jobbable convert, natural dual wield, an exp environment where black mages are highly sought after, "starting" gear that rivals old sets, and higher end weapons and armor with mouth watering enhancements, and new job abilities both high and mid level are a few of the things we've gotten that people never expected we'd ever see. We have four more updates before we hit level 99 and if each one is as revolutionary as the first we can't discredit anything yet. Thief/War may well be viable at level 99. S-E has a lot of freedom to work with and the old limitations to develop around have been broken on both player as well as the enemy side.

Edited, Aug 25th 2010 10:26pm by Melphina
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#32 Aug 25 2010 at 9:03 PM Rating: Decent
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Mistress Melphina wrote:
I don't think our old way of thinking during old events will be applicable for too long. We're going to be level 85 soon and lvl 90 before years end meaning older mobs will miss us more often and hit for less damage as they become lower and lower on the relative scale. Meanwhile we can crank up the DD stats with no concern of accuracy and tear them apart. Subbing /war in limbus may be safe by level 90 with stuff dying before it gets off many attacks. Healers and support classes are growing just as fast as we are with stronger gear and spells. The ability to recover from and mitigate damage dealt by level 75 events should be child's play by the end of the grind. We're talking about a group of level 85-90 (and one day higher) players taking on decent challenge level mobs with level 90+ abilities, gear, and spells. Much of the NEW content is stripping us of our utsusemi dependency. Abyssea experience alliances... you get more exp per individual whilst having a freaking alliance to cover your ****. 18 people versus a few mobs means you don't NEED utsusemi if your group is balanced. New Notorious Mobs, many of which completely bypass utsusemi have been added. There are NM's where utsusemi is required (Megantereon anyone?) and NM's where utsusemi won't do crap as the nm's that use -ga's attacks use a lot of them (almost exclusively in some instances).

FFXI is going through a revolutionary phase and I have a feeling that by level 99 the game will be nothing like it was at 75. S-E is releasing powerful buffs and spreading them across all the job classes while simultaneously taking the NM's to new levels. Sub jobbable convert, natural dual wield, an exp environment where black mages are highly sought after, "starting" gear that rivals old sets, and higher end weapons and armor with mouth watering enhancements, and new job abilities both high and mid level are a few of the things we've gotten that people never expected we'd ever see. We have four more updates before we hit level 99 and if each one is as revolutionary as the first we can't discredit anything yet. Thief/War may well be viable at level 99. S-E has a lot of freedom to work with and the old limitations to develop around have been broken on both player as well as the enemy side.

Edited, Aug 25th 2010 10:26pm by Melphina


Everything you said is well worded, grammatically correct and appears to make logical sense.

The only caveat I must add (which is before your time as a long-time Thief poster on here because I don't remember seeing you around much pre-ToAU) is that Square-Enix, no matter what update, no matter what change, has a history of complete inability to balance the game. The pendulum of balance at Square-Enix headquarters for their FFXI job "adjustment" team swings to one extreme or the other. There really isn't a middle ground, and they have proven they do favor certain jobs over others. This favoritism based on someone who has read every single update note on FFXI and followed most English based FFXI forums appears to be largely correlated to who whines the loudest and longest.
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#33 Aug 26 2010 at 3:03 AM Rating: Good
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And the case for Evisceration continues to increase.

I'm not sure if anyone has gotten the new crit body piece yet, but that combined with our newer crit dmg+ trait and now fencer, is making thf/war sound mighty beastly to me.

Edit: Oh yeah single weapon only -.-

I'm actually worried about how much damage I'll be taking. Thf will pretty much be on the same /nin status as Mnk.
Do they have any idea how beastly they just made DD thief in the right situations? You can often get away with /war in Abyssea parties and I know I should be able to /war in exp parties if I want to be cheeky and bring my PL.


DW IV is 30% delay. Since dancer got it, that's just what I'm expecting them to give to thief. I'll keep my fingers crossed so I won't be disappointed if it's something lower, but that's really what I expect.
Add current standard equip: Suppa, Mirke Wardecors and Auric Dagger, and that becomes 43%. Ridiculous.

For zerging, if so desired we can use Krabkatoa head, 1% haste neck, /drg w/ earring, dusk gloves +1, ocelot legs, and homam feet, for 23% haste while still able to wear something that might look intriguing, Nusku's Sash.

I don't know what the DW on that sash is, but if it's 5%, it could be situationally better for dmg than a belt with haste.
If we're starting off with 43% DW and if we have 26% equip haste and 15% haste spell, 5% DW would still be better than a 5% haste belt. That could be something to think about; I'd like to know how much DW is on that thing.



This could just be flat out ridiculous. I'm excited lol. I've been binging starcraft 2 and even started to play FFXIV beta, but thief getting treated right really restores my interest in XI again.

If they give us DW IV, 28->43% DW is an approximate 26% DPS increase. /war D.A. added, factoring in T.A., is a 6.5% increase. Compound that together for a 34% increase in DMG. And we haven't even factored in Berserk, fencer, native attack bonus, and eventually aggressor. Whatever the settings, I sure as **** have never been 34% behind in damage when competing with neither the best Apoc on my server, nor the best Mnk, nor the best War. If SE does things right, thief with or without mandau will be something to fear. As it should be.

Edited, Aug 26th 2010 10:01am by Shamaya
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#34 Aug 26 2010 at 3:40 AM Rating: Decent
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Just to nitpick but Fencer is incompatible with dual wield it seems.
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#35 Aug 26 2010 at 2:58 PM Rating: Decent
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What would THFs do if they found out they get DWI at level 15, DWII at level 35, DWIII at level 55, DWIV at 75??? I know, SE is implementing the Job trait in the same update that takes us to level 85, but nothing prevents SE from making DWIV level 75.

Can anyone guess what could happen at level 95?
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#36 Aug 26 2010 at 4:41 PM Rating: Good
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While I can see DWIV possible once the cap increase finishes, I can't help but shake the feeling we'll only get up to III for now, maybe even overall. DNC stands to benefit more from faster swings due to more frequent JA use, whereas THF is usually limited to SA or TA.

Nonetheless, I have a healthy respect for a properly buffed THF and know mine isn't too shabby at the moment, either. Went 2/5 on Auric over the past few days, mine being the second. So will be nice to play with that some soon, but I've also been having ISP issues all day. -.-
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#37 Aug 26 2010 at 6:28 PM Rating: Good
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Speculation:

The introduction of dnc dual wield was such that someone at max level at the time of the update (lvl 75) would see an improvement over subbing /nin (ie: DW2 -> DW3), and make a further gain upon reaching the new cap (DW4 @ 80).

I would therefore expect the same pattern for thf. DW3 would be in place for lvl 80s, and DW4 at lvl 85. One could then extrapolate backwards and expect DW tiers at levels 25, 45, 65 and 85.
#38 Aug 26 2010 at 8:30 PM Rating: Good
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I'd like to offer some input on the subject of thief/war and propose the concept of a shadow build. I've become more and more familiar with shadow armor since I play ballista a lot and it's becoming increasingly popular to find as much PDT as possible. Whereas defense won't protect you much if you're shadowless PDT will! Consider this

Thief/War
PDT Kila, PDT Kila --- ammo
head, neck, earring, earring
body, *****, Jelly Ring, ring
back, waist, Desultor Tassets with 3% haste and +4 PDT, feet

Look at how CLOSE that is to our current setups. I only swapped out 4 slots and managed to retain weapons that still have a high base damage and DoT rating. I also left the hands empty because Denali is not PDT but straight damage reduction itself (IE: a conceptual baby defending ring). The denali cuts into armor bound haste however whereas the others do not affect gear haste.

PDT caps at -50% reduction and as you can see this shadow set adds +25 PDT with only a few minor setbacks to a standard /nin tp set. The biggest cut in damage comes from dual wielding two shadow daggers but that adds PDT + 16. The Kila's are going to be expanded upon yet again, and the upgrade from shadow dakini to shadow kila was 5% PDT---> 8% PDT. If we get 10% or more pDT on a single weapon we can dual wield with the shadow capabilities of an earth staff and even more down the road. Imagine a hypothetical level 99 shadow weapon with 15% PDT and then dual wield two of them!!

PROS: Shadow sets are more effective than defense sets because they offer straight damage reduction. The rest comes from a hypothetical dual wield IV with /war sub and the accompanying berserk, warcry, double attack, provoke (lol?), and at level 90 + add in agressor. Furthermore you can swap full gear sets to weaponskill in and swap back to your shadow TP set immediately afterward.

CONS: The jelly ring raises magic damage taken by 5% and shadow sets don't work on casters period. Depending on how much PDT is available to you you may still get whalloped. And there is always the obvious fact that adding in shadow weapons and armor DOES cut into DD stat equipment.

Additional thoughts:
While the Jelly Ring has obvious setbacks there are augmented Dark Rings inside abyssean chests that add +6 PDT and can be worn as a pair for +12 PDT ... something I've become painfully aware of in ballista. Pairing up two of them sacrifices the rajas ring however. Still, while it's somewhat limited in capabilities now the shadow thief/war has potential to grow. Remember that we don't know WHAT kind of gear and abilities we'll end up with when we're finally level 99. This is just another possible line of thinking that could one day grow into something beautiful.

Edited, Aug 26th 2010 10:42pm by Melphina
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#39 Aug 27 2010 at 12:35 AM Rating: Decent
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If the Parazoniums continue to improve I wonder if whether at some point /WAR and the +Double Attack version might become better than the OAT?
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I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#40 Aug 27 2010 at 2:39 AM Rating: Good
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I did some napkin math on another forum on the D.A. dagger,
Meanwhile, I'm not impressed with the DoubleAttack+7 Kartika. With brutal and triple merits, Thf's added swing volume is 1.24hits/round. Since double attack is believed to proc first and gimps t.a., and since d.a. has decreasing marginal returns in a sense, and the increase only brings you to 1.296hits/round. A marginal increase of 4.5% more swings rather than 7. If you're dual-wielding this (211 delay) and a 190 delay weapon with 23% D.W., the D.A+7 equates to about -13 delay in terms of DoT. So melee DoT wise, it's as if swinging a 41/198 delay weapon. That isn't bad, but it's no 39/201, 5% DW Auric Dagger.

But of course it will be buffed. And as our swing volume (d.a. and t.a.) go up, which they will with /war, you're right in that the d.a. dagger will be hurt relatively less than the OAT one.


Melphina that is a lot of PDT. And lately I have been addicted to -MDT and -PDT sets for my Rdm. But I don't know what kind of a mental image you have for their application for thief. Surely for tanking we'll still use Thf/Nin, I'm sure you don't mean to say we shouldn't. But for our /war, a dmg mitigation set is certainly going to be necessary for survival.
Oh, well actually I now know what you mean. I thought you were drawing a relation to ballista. But you're simply talking about a ballista set. Do you mean shadow-less and not a /shadow/ set? The PDT daggers you're talking about are earth element.

Well if that's the case, I mean I don't do ballista and there are probably only a few who do it here. But that sounds pretty ideal to me. Both PDT and evasion get exponential gains, the more you stack, until they reach their cap, though. So, for example, say you were at 23% evade rate and were using dark ring -6PDT. If you addded alert ring to get 3% evade rate, you just decreased your dmg taken by 20/23, or about 13%. If the -6PDT ring put you from 44% -> 50% PDT, that'd be marginally decreasing your dmg reduction by 44/50 or about 12%. So in that situation you're better w/ evasion.
I have a feeling that for ballista some amount of PDT will be the best option. It is possible to cap evasion I would think on some opponents, and still have room to add PDT. Or perhaps, sometimes a piece of PDT will be overpowering compared to an evasion option. But without knowing your evade rate it's hard to say what's better at any given moment I think. Maybe best to go w/ the gut.
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#41 Aug 27 2010 at 2:47 AM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:

The jobs listed below will each welcome an existing trait to their ******* upon reaching the specified level, beyond which the degree of mastery will increase in stages.
Job Level Job Trait
MNK Lv.85 Skillchain Bonus
WHM Lv.85 Shield Def. Bonus
RDM Lv.85 Mag. Burst Bonus
THF Lv.83 Dual Wield
DRK Lv.85 Crit. Atk. Bonus
BRD Lv.85 Fencer
NIN Lv.85 Skillchain Bonus
COR Lv.85 True Shot
PUP Lv.85 Crit. Def. Bonus


So um...no DW until we hit 83 and increases from there....so yeah DW1 it looks like >.>
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#42 Aug 27 2010 at 2:52 AM Rating: Excellent
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Dual Wield 1, shocker.

Worthless.
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#43 Aug 27 2010 at 4:47 AM Rating: Good
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Great. ;/ Well it is kind of silly to overpower us so ridiculously with a DWIV

I still wouldn't consider DWI to be useless, though, pre-90. Sacrifice 5% DW, aka more than 5% increased hits, in place of 10% d.a., aka less than 10% increased hits. Not to mention berserk, etc. So certainly not worthless.

They did also say "with further improvements to the traits to come." But at 99 we're probably looking at a 15% natural DWII vs a 25% DW3 ;/
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#44 Aug 27 2010 at 5:32 AM Rating: Good
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I don't know Sham, it is kind of a downer.

We have always wanted it before, at least me, and to give it at such a late level and supposedly tier 1 kind of saddens me.

I wouldn't mind if they had given us starting at level 50 and increased tiers every 20 levels so that we'd end up with only dual wield III. That would be fair and made us happier.
#45 Aug 27 2010 at 6:20 AM Rating: Good
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I thought that native traits over-ride the same traits from sub jobs. If that is the case, we will lose DWII with nin sub once we ding 83 and lose the opportunity we had for DWIII at 90. Please tell me my recollection is wrong. If I'm right, this is a huge nerf.
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#46 Aug 27 2010 at 6:26 AM Rating: Good
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ElvaanTHF wrote:
Dual Wield 1, shocker.

Worthless.


After 8 years of SE delivering groin shots to THF at every opportunity we should have known better.

Well played SE, you are master trolls.


Edited, Aug 27th 2010 9:29am by Lobivopis
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The main screen resolution for "FINAL FANTASY XI" is dependent on the "Overlay Graphics Resolution" setting.
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I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#47 Aug 27 2010 at 6:37 AM Rating: Decent
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Lokithor wrote:
I thought that native traits over-ride the same traits from sub jobs. If that is the case, we will lose DWII with nin sub once we ding 83 and lose the opportunity we had for DWIII at 90. Please tell me my recollection is wrong. If I'm right, this is a huge nerf.


If this turns out to be the case I think I really will quit FFXI. I'm serious.



Edited, Aug 27th 2010 9:38am by Lobivopis
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Final Fantasy XI 12-14-11 Update wrote:
Adjust the resolution of menus.
The main screen resolution for "FINAL FANTASY XI" is dependent on the "Overlay Graphics Resolution" setting.
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I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#48 Aug 27 2010 at 6:41 AM Rating: Decent
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Lobivopis wrote:
Lokithor wrote:
I thought that native traits over-ride the same traits from sub jobs. If that is the case, we will lose DWII with nin sub once we ding 83 and lose the opportunity we had for DWIII at 90. Please tell me my recollection is wrong. If I'm right, this is a huge nerf.


If this turns out to be the case I think I really will quit FFXI. I'm serious.


That would be kind of the most destructive nerf SE has ever given a job that didn't need a nerf in the first place. It will now be THF/WAR onry, cause what will be the point of /NIN in that case, if THF will very likely never be able to pull enough hate to make shadows worth it again.
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#49 Aug 27 2010 at 7:00 AM Rating: Good
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Traits don't work that way. A BLU can get MAB 1 naively but if their /BLM or /RDM they still get the MAB2 from the sub. Don't worry you get to keep the DW from your jobs, but I seriously think SE is ******** the pooch here. THF should be getting DW at the same level that DNC gets it ... /sigh.
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#50 Aug 27 2010 at 7:38 AM Rating: Good
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Easy test. DRG or WAR main.... sub DRK. If you get an additional 12 atk the stronger trait wins.
#51 Aug 27 2010 at 8:06 AM Rating: Good
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^ this. Same tier traits do not stack in any way. Multiple tier traits, only the highest takes effect. ie: Drg gets atk bonus 1. /war gives atk bonus 1. Drg/War has Atk bonus 1. /Drk has atk bonus 2 (lv 30). Drg/Drk =atk bonus 2. Same with Drg/Rng and acc bonuses, mages and MAB, HMP, MDB and everything else.

If there was some retarded thing where DW2 /nin doesnt overwrite DW1 from Thf main that would be completely unprecedented in the history of FFXI among all job traits in the game. Highly, highly unlikely.

That said, DW1 is friggin lame as ****. We will have a tiny window of thf/war with DW1 vs DW2 (10 vs 15%) till 85. Come level 90, it will likely be back to /nin all over again.

Lv 90 scenario: We stay with DW1 (DW1 at 83, almost no chance of DW2 by 90). Now its 10%DW /war vs 25% DW /nin. We already know how that turns out. We have been doing 15% DW2 vs /war comparisons for years. 10% vs 25% is the same but even worse because that 15% boost /nin would have over /war (10% vs 25%) will be exponentially better than the 0% DW vs 15% since DW has inreasing returns. Back to square 1 except that 15% boost from /nin is even better than the old 0-15% were working with now.

Post lv 90 We get DW2 (maybe). Now its 15%/war vs 25% /nin. It will still be in the same ballpark /war, but with /war having to hold back without all that much of a damage boost, i cant imagine it being very practical considering it wont be OMGBBQ more damage as it would if we were say DW4/war.
____________________________________________________________________________________________________

This is really frustrating. I would have been ecstatic with DW4 though thats honestly more than i realistically expected or feel we needed, but was honestly expecting DW2 now and 3 available by 99 matching /nin.

I was really expecting a larger boost considering in the same breath, they are 'adding hate manipulation spells'. As lol as hate control is these days, I liked the idea of spreading it around so overall hatecontrol for groups would go up. But with the expected result i have been pushing for in most of our thf update wishlist type threads. Either give us more tactical/support functions (obviously not with LOLdespoil and new hate control spells to others) OR push us back in the rat race with a significant DD boost and leave our support in the current rather subtle state. I was really hopeful that SE had gotten off the fence and chosen a direction and it was looking like a big boost in the DD direction via DW. After seeing the dnc update, i was actually very positive about the potential (like many here). This is just sad. SE still hasnt gotten off the fence about what they want thf to do.

since lv 75 we have gotten: Worst excuse for a support JA in existence (loldespoil), 5% crit boost, and now.....DW1. We havent made any ground in any direction. DDs are getting more DD boosts. Support jobs are still moving ahead in the support division. We hare just falling behind from every angle. When it comes to thf, SE needs to (in the words of my HS band director :P) its time to **** or get off the pot. Pick a path for thf and commit to it. Stop halfassing this **** and get off the fence. **** or get off the pot.
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