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THFs rejoice! Native DW for you in September update!Follow

#1 Aug 25 2010 at 2:34 AM Rating: Excellent
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SE gonna give native Dual Wield to THF Job!

http://www.playonline.com/pcd/topics/ff11us/detail/5757/detail.html

Let's celebrate!
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#2 Aug 25 2010 at 3:11 AM Rating: Excellent
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Good news yes, but not holding my breath. Is it going to be the level of DW that was given to DNC (yay)...or to BLU? (>.>)

But at least our ******** finally got through to them XD
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#3 Aug 25 2010 at 5:18 AM Rating: Decent
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Eh, we're probably still going to have to sub nin for most things anyway. A THF without shadows can be a dead THF real quick. We'll have to wait and see what tier they give us I guess.
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#4 Aug 25 2010 at 6:42 AM Rating: Good
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As long as the DW we get at least matches what we would get with /nin I would be happy. I wonder if this means we can sub /war under certain circumstances?

Of course, as it was mentioned, sometimes you are required to have shadows (if you are pulling and / or kiting). I would imagine that for solo, /NIN still may be king too (or is it /DNC now?). But if there isnt much of a chance of you pulling and / or kiting, hopefully we can ditch /nin.

So, if this was the case, what would we sub? /WAR for berserk and warcry? /DNC for the (coming) haste samba and cures for the party?
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#5 Aug 25 2010 at 7:16 AM Rating: Good
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This was a welcome surprise to me as well. If they hold true to the buffing method's they've been using for the past several updates then yeah, we'll probably get get a good dual wield rating here. I'm hoping so for sure. That changes a lot of things to consider.

Auric Dagger -- This could very well become the dagger of choice.

New Sub Job considerations

/Warrior -- Offensive benefits include attack bonus I (10 attack), Double Attack, Berserk, Warcry and at level 90 Aggresssor. Defensive benefits include defender. Interesting note is provoke also makes a nice fast claim tool as well for hunting nm's. Thief/war with natural dual wield would have some serious power behind it. I don't know where and when it would be most viable but I'll be playing around with it at least a little bit.

/Samurai -- Offensive Benefits include store tp II (sTP + 15), Meditate, and Zanshin + Sekkanoki while defensive benefits include 3rd eye. I've seen a lot of dancer's subbing /nin but they operate differently than us and their tp is their life blood whereas ours relies more on our DoT . This would be a much weaker sub offensively than /warrior without question.

The old sub job considerations haven't changed other than adding in whatever natural dual wield we would get. Of course if we do get something like Dual Wield IV then we could still sub /nin and have some extreme attack speed with the safety of shadows. I'm wondering how big of an issue losing our protection from shadows will turn out to be, and where it can and can not be overcome.

EDIT: Edited out Zanshin in accordance with the info posted by Veggeto below. Also this deserves a quote

Seriha Wrote:
Quote:
/DRG would probably be my big group sub of choice with native Dual Wield. First being I'd swap out my Brutal for Wyvern (Suppa in other slot). Sub itself brings and ATK and ACC bonus. Jumps can provide additional TP, as well as being able to Triple Attack. The hate shedding properties of Jumps also allow us to yank someone else's enmity and then get rid of it without us eventually having to be careful if we're meleeing, too. If you can get your hands on a Speed or Bullwhip belt, 25% equipment Haste opens up, too.


**** that's nice O.o. Interestingly enough

Acuben's Helm
Wyvern Earring
Homam (hands)
speed/v belt
skadi's chausses
homam (feet)

is 25% haste without the bullwhip belt and if I threw in bullwhip it would raise it to 26% which is the true gear haste cap according to rounding. While the acuben's helm drops accuracy by 10 the sub job counters this with accuracy bonus 1. And of course there's always homam/acp legs and ocelot's trousers to consider with a turban build. That's pretty wicked!

Edited, Aug 25th 2010 11:06am by Melphina
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#6 Aug 25 2010 at 7:25 AM Rating: Good
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I am going to remain on the fence until I see what level they give... I can see SE giving us DW1 at 70 and putting in some clause that makes it so DW from subjobs do not overwrite our native DW... SE is slightly sadistic, so it fits with the MO.
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#7 Aug 25 2010 at 8:26 AM Rating: Good
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To quote Tychus Findlay (Marine in cinematic announcing Starcraft 2 after 12 years since Starcraft 1)

"****, it's about time"

In other news.....Guess i better level my war sub >_>. I havent been /war in so long i was planning on just not leveling it. Between thf and drg, I only need /sam, /nin, /dnc, and /blu. Guess i better get /war back in the mix.

Edited, Aug 25th 2010 10:28am by Banalaty
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#8 Aug 25 2010 at 8:35 AM Rating: Good
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Knowing how SE hates THF... I won't put up hope for higher Tier of DW will be given to THF.

And... without /NIN, I don't know how to keep my dmg up without sucking MP from healer or dying...
/RDM ? Beside of Phalanx, nothing I can think it is good for THF.
/SAM ? Sekki WS , solo SC, then what? Dodge or die?

just can't think of any subjob give me longer survival ...
Perhaps, I am a THF with /NIN for a long time, it is hard to ask me not to /NIN >.>;
#9 Aug 25 2010 at 8:40 AM Rating: Excellent
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/DRG would probably be my big group sub of choice with native Dual Wield. First being I'd swap out my Brutal for Wyvern (Suppa in other slot). Sub itself brings and ATK and ACC bonus. Jumps can provide additional TP, as well as being able to Triple Attack. The hate shedding properties of Jumps also allow us to yank someone else's enmity and then get rid of it without us eventually having to be careful if we're meleeing, too. If you can get your hands on a Speed or Bullwhip belt, 25% equipment Haste opens up, too.
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#10 Aug 25 2010 at 8:45 AM Rating: Decent
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Mistress Melphina wrote:
/Samurai -- Offensive Benefits include store tp II (sTP + 15), Meditate, and Zanshin + Sekkanoki while defensive benefits include 3rd eye. I've seen a lot of dancer's subbing /nin but they operate differently than us and their tp is their life blood whereas ours relies more on our DoT . This would be a much weaker sub offensively than /warrior without question.


Just Fyi, zanshin doesn't work w/ dual wield or h2h. Only single wield/2handed.

Tested myself ect. Blind pots, single wield sam 2handed wep. Procs very often. Single wield, procs very often. DW, couldn't get it to proc in 10 mins of swinging w/ blind pots. /blm h2h (one punch per round) procs like mad. /mnk 2 punches per round, no procs at all
#11 Aug 25 2010 at 9:51 AM Rating: Decent
THF/DRG? SATA+Assassin's Charge+Jump with 2 multi hit weapons? I wonder what that will do...
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#12 Aug 25 2010 at 10:10 AM Rating: Default
Also what makes you think it'll be DW1 only? Didn't they give DNC DW last patch and they got it at early levels? Or was that a last minute patch and not a previewed 'Level Cap' job adjustment like the one for thf this time?
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#13 Aug 25 2010 at 10:43 AM Rating: Good
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I've been thinking about Thief/dragoon for the past hour and I don't think I like it as much as I do thief/war for general group setups. The reason /war is dangerous comes more from lacking shadows than it does from the inability to shed hate. If you're geared and buffed well you can take hate with normal melee swings. I don't think thief/dragoon will be any less in the line of fire than thief/war. High Jump is on a timer and if you're looking to sub /drg for an attempt at hitting the haste cap you're GOING to be getting struck. 25% gear haste + 13% dual wield (auric mirke and suppa) will attract just as much attention as the benefits /war affords. Regular jump actually increases enmity whereas High Jump only reduces enmity by 50% once every 3 minutes. That's not enough to protect you any more than /war defender is. Honestly if you sub /dragoon you're getting an offensive sub with higher haste whereas if you sub /war you're getting an offensive sub with raw power. BOTH combos are equally capable of getting plowed due to the DoT.

Furthermore while jumps may give you tp double attack is going to do that better. /war sub with brutal versus /dragoon sub with wyvern is a difference of 15% double attack rate versus 5% haste and I can't say for sure that the 5% haste automatically wins. Furthermore /war has berserk and warcry and very soon it will have aggressor whereas /dragoon will only have haste and conserve tp going for it. /war sub's double attacks can activate during weaponskill as well and berserk/aggressor will do far more for weaponskills than /dragoon's acc bonus. I have said for a long time that thief/war is a very dangerous job combo if you're talking about a TP burn scenario. When /dancer got dual wield last update I restated this point. Now it's our turn to get dual wield (at last!!) but I'd advise you to be careful because it packs a load of power with it and soaks up damage when it gets struck just as easily.

With that out of the way I'll say this. YES! I will be trying out thief/war!! Thief DOES have a natural defense against damage other than our shadows and that's our A+ Evasion rating. My evasion set is pretty **** good and if I'm pulling hate I will swap to it to shield me. I can foresee us in the near future discussing the need for a good evasion build and trying to make /war sub work so I'll start with mine.

Optical Hat --- Ritter Gorget -- Elusive Earring -- Elusive Earring
Aurore Doublet -- War Gloves +1 -- Breeze Ring -- Jelly Ring
Boxer's mantle, Scouter's Rope, Raven Hose, Aurore Gaiters

Now here's an interesting thought. The raven set has a large amount of -enmity which aides in enmity decay and can be coupled with novia.
Raven Jupon -- Evasion +9, Enmity -9
Raven Bracers -- Evasion +6, enmity -5
Raven Hose -- Evasion + 6, enmity - 6
Raven Gaiters -- Evasion +5, enmity -5
Novia Earring -- Evasion +1, enmity - 7

That adds a large amount of evasion while silmultaneously reducing enmity by a whopping 32%. It's a fun thought and one I'd like to discuss further with everyone elses input.

Edited, Aug 25th 2010 12:48pm by Melphina
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#14 Aug 25 2010 at 11:00 AM Rating: Good
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I think with DRG sub, High Jump only sheds 30% hate, not the full 50%. But i could be wrong >.> lv11 DRG
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#15 Aug 25 2010 at 11:18 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Optical Hat --- Ritter Gorget -- Elusive Earring -- Elusive Earring
Aurore Doublet -- War Gloves +1 -- Breeze Ring -- Jelly Ring
Boxer's mantle, Scouter's Rope, Raven Hose, Aurore Gaiters


Just curious why you would make a hybrid type evasion set and not just go all out. You could replace the jelly ring with an alert ring (which is duoable) (+6), aurore gaiters with dance shoes+1 (+2), ritter gorget with evasion torque (+1 assuming 1 skill = 0.9 evasion), aurore doublet with SH+1 (+2), and one elusive with novia (+2) (since you are talking about it as a possibility). That would get you 13 more evasion from things which are relatively easily obtainable.
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#16 Aug 25 2010 at 11:43 AM Rating: Decent
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Just a passing comment that Melphina's probably already considered, but I thought I'd share anyway; you should probably try to figure out at what point the evasion actually starts to hurt your DoT.

what I mean: (note, when I say "full time" I mean "ignoring ws", not ignoring the benefits the subs give to ws, just that the over all damage from your tp set "full time" means not having to switch to an eva set when you pull hate)

thf/nin: full time TP set = x dot while engaged
thf/war: TP set = y dot while engaged and Eva set = z dot while engaged, where z < x < y
thf/drg: TP set = w dot while engaged and Eva set = v dot while engaged, where v < x < w
whether z/y = v/w, z/y < v/w or z/u > v/w depends on build, player skill, attention, and what you're fighting.

At what point are z+y and/or v+w less than x? That's the ultimate question. In non math terms, at what point does your reduced damage taken and thus, reduced damage dealt, from switching to an evasion set end up over taking the over all increase in damage from subbing war (or drg)?

I point this out because, if you plan on subbing war, once you get aggressor, that -20 evasion will also need to be considered. Yea, I know thf has a ******* of evasion. I'm a pup, I know what that's like Smiley: lol. I'm just pointing that you probably want to consider this stuff too.
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#17 Aug 25 2010 at 11:46 AM Rating: Excellent
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TheHolyDragoonSeraphus wrote:
Also what makes you think it'll be DW1 only? Didn't they give DNC DW last patch and they got it at early levels? Or was that a last minute patch and not a previewed 'Level Cap' job adjustment like the one for thf this time?


No it wasn't, if I recall. The job they said they were giving Dual Wield to was BLU, who got only DW1.

I want to believe, but man I know the pattern says DW1 or 2, tops. ; ;

Please DW3 or higher, please!


EDIT: @ Melphina -enmity gear won't assist in enmity decay, only hinder it's production. For instance, all melee strikes will generate less enmity than they would, but the decay of enmity would still be the same if I recall, according to Kanican's LJ.

Edited, Aug 25th 2010 1:55pm by ElvaanTHF
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#18 Aug 25 2010 at 11:56 AM Rating: Decent
Not talking about using Jumps as a stand alone thing. But I'm curious because SATA makes your next hit a super critical, so I'm wondering what kinda damage SATA+Dual Wield+multi hit weapon/ridill+Assassin's Charge+Jump would do
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#19 Aug 25 2010 at 12:12 PM Rating: Excellent
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THF DW should be on par with DNC DW, only seems right. The reason BLU have DW1 is because all BLU traits are level one traits. Hopefully we will get more in the future, but its a start.
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#20 Aug 25 2010 at 12:52 PM Rating: Good
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Melphina, I would avoid Ritter Gorget in a build trying to make /war work. Only because it has +3 enmity on it.
#21 Aug 25 2010 at 1:35 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Just curious why you would make a hybrid type evasion set and not just go all out. You could replace the jelly ring with an alert ring (which is duoable) (+6), aurore gaiters with dance shoes+1 (+2), ritter gorget with evasion torque (+1 assuming 1 skill = 0.9 evasion), aurore doublet with SH+1 (+2), and one elusive with novia (+2) (since you are talking about it as a possibility). That would get you 13 more evasion from things which are relatively easily obtainable.


There is a point where evasion caps and adding more no longer works. Since we're dealing with an 80% evasion rate anyway you're going to get hit 1/5 times no matter what you do so I adjusted a few pieces to accomodate that. What I listed was my current build but I may consider altering it a bit.

Aurore Gaiters-- you trade 2 evasion for 2% haste and 5 dex. Haste lowers utsusemi recast as well and up until now my builds have focused mostly on /nin play. The DoT and dex were worth the trade imo.

Ritter Gorget -- The most an eva torque will give you is 7 evasion but at level 75 I always got 6 from it because I lost a point to rounding. The Ritter adds to the max hp count which the eva torque does not. Up until now I preferred extra enmity so I didn't mind it increasing enmity. To be fair I also forgot about that little fact because I wasn't concerned.

Aurore Doublet -- Just like the feet I'm sacrificing 2 evasion for more DoT friendly stats. The blend of 2% double attack, 4 str, 4 dex, 4 agi (if you consider lowering enemy crit rate), with 10 eva/r acc/ and acc appealed to me more than simply adding 12 eva/acc and 20 hp.

Novia Earring
-- Coupled with not caring about enmity and the fact that evasion caps at 80% I didn't deem it a necessary upgrade and never bought it to save gil.

Jelly Ring-- I figured 5% pDT would benefit me during the 1/5 hits landed more than a few more eva since I had a reliable set already and risked not maxing out 80% eva rate on a few higher end mobs.

Quote:
Melphina, I would avoid Ritter Gorget in a build trying to make /war work. Only because it has +3 enmity on it.


I forgot it tacked that on. I merited maximum enmity increase 4 times though. I honestly wonder if worrying about enmity gear is worth it when we're talking about dual wielding /war. I'm so decked out I don't think it would help me much. I just mentioned it to see what others thought.

Quote:
EDIT: @ Melphina -enmity gear won't assist in enmity decay, only hinder it's production. For instance, all melee strikes will generate less enmity than they would, but the decay of enmity would still be the same if I recall, according to Kanican's LJ.


Yeah, I worded that poorly. I was thinking of overall enmity in relation to that of your party members since they'll be building enmity at full rates. I don't know if it would be worth considering though since this is /war we're dealing with and it's just... well dual wielded speed + berserk + 15% double attack is extremely potent when you're geared right. In my case after I pull hate I'd probably only lose main hate to another melee's weaponskill or a trick attacked version of my own on another person.

Edited, Aug 25th 2010 3:39pm by Melphina
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#22 Aug 25 2010 at 1:38 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Not talking about using Jumps as a stand alone thing. But I'm curious because SATA makes your next hit a super critical, so I'm wondering what kinda damage SATA+Dual Wield+multi hit weapon/ridill+Assassin's Charge+Jump would do


Jump only does more damage than a regular attack for 2 reasons:
1. It has a 'vit mod'. Its similar to, but not the same as a WS mod, but a low multiplier based on vit.
2. Drgs SHOULD be using AF boots which add 10% atk to jump.

Other than that it is identical to a normal attack. It can miss/DA/TA/crit/etc like a melee round. Thf has piddly vit and no AF boost. It will only be SLIGHTLY stronger than a melee attack due to vit boost. So your not going to be seeing OMGBBQ numbers with SAJump. A SAAC Jump will basically be a regular melee SAAC attack.

However this does bring up a mildly interesting point for me as a drg. Does the vit boost only effect the primary hit (like WSC) or is it more like a modifier that applies to all hits such as double attack, dual wield, or in thf case, potential 6hits (like the 100% acc on melee SATA). If thats the case, you would see a moderate boost on SATA+AC+Jump, but still nothing compared to saving that SATA+AC with a WS.

The biggest fun thing for that is you can SATA+Jump without engaging and from a range of 10. More like a blu/thf using cannonball. It is also instant so no more "SA!....wait for it.....mob turns...smack for 30 damage" and becomes "SA!Jump!=POW".

As for /war vs /drg, this has been done on the 2hander side a great deal, but the primary candidates were sam/drg and war/drg. War/drg has been outstripped since hasso came into the picture. Sam/war vs sam/drg has been raging a long while but /drg generally considered superior, but that wont work for us because zerk wont help gekkos already capping atk which is some ~60% of sam damage (WS). Thf will gain WAAAAY more from zerk than sam ever can (unless polearm). And when aggressor hits, the 10acc boost of /drg wont be so notable. Also sam doesnt give up brutal earring as we would.

15% DA, zerk, aggressor vs 10acc, 5% haste and 1handed weapon jumps dosnt stack up so well. Particularly since we can already break over 20% haste with high end gear as it is. We wont gain the full 5% boost in haste compared to say, 22% build with ocelot pants. 22% haste, 15% DA, zerk+agressor build utilizing ocelot pants should defeat a 25% /drg build with 2 jumps+10acc.

Thf/war will be a BEAST.
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#23 Aug 25 2010 at 1:55 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
There is a point where evasion caps and adding more no longer works. Since we're dealing with an 80% evasion rate anyway you're going to get hit 1/5 times no matter what you do so I adjusted a few pieces to accomodate that. What I listed was my current build but I may consider altering it a bit.


Right, but how can you be sure you are hitting that point unless you have fought a specific mob and parsed it out and/or know its accuracy already? Evasion builds are already going to gimp your damage output in favor of survival, so why not go all out? I've never even looked into a -PDT build on THF since I generally played /NIN and used my evasion build to get up Ichi. /WAR is going to make me have to rethink things.
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#24 Aug 25 2010 at 2:09 PM Rating: Excellent
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Regardless of sub, if we find ourselves frequently the attention of mobs then I'd pin it more on healers being keen on their duties (Thinks like Convert and Accession'd Stoneskin do exist, after all). If people can be okay with two-handers full-timing Hasso, there's no reason to exclude a strong THF from those scenarios.

I know in SAM talks over Soboro and wearing Brutal, people complained that Brutal's DA would hurt Soboro's TA rate due to precedence in code checks. Can similar be applied to THF when considering 15% DA and our fully merited TA?
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#25 Aug 25 2010 at 2:32 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Right, but how can you be sure you are hitting that point unless you have fought a specific mob and parsed it out and/or know its accuracy already? Evasion builds are already going to gimp your damage output in favor of survival, so why not go all out?


A valid point. I'll look into adding the eva torque and scp harness +1 back into my eva set. I no longer have my dance shoes +1 and those are a pain to find on the auction house, but I'll see what I can do with it.

Quote:
I've never even looked into a -PDT build on THF


I think there are instances where a PDT piece is a good choice. Denali Hands, Jelly ring, and the recently added fugacity beret for starters. You can build the desultor tassets with 7 evasion and 4% -PDT as well. I augmented my tassets with 3% haste and critical hit damage + 3% to make them a hybrid speed/damage option for my sa/ta macroes. I could redo the fight but I really don't want to. I'm rather fond of my tassets choice and I added aurore gaiters and skadi's mask into my SA build giving my sa a total of 9% haste and my TA a total of 7%. I have suppa in my ta build as well but I'm reluctant to pass up hollow for suppa in my trick attack macro. I use this for my standard setup and I'm pleased with the results.

Edited, Aug 25th 2010 4:35pm by Melphina
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#26 Aug 25 2010 at 2:35 PM Rating: Decent
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Unless THF natively gets DW3 (at least), /NIN will still be the SJ of choice.
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