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#1 Aug 12 2010 at 10:41 AM Rating: Good
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Things are pretty slow lately, so I have been thinking about a build using sTP, and wanted to know what you think. No, I am not talking about full Aurore. Here goes.

stp Fusetto +8
Brisk Mask +4
Brutal Earring +1
Goading Belt +5
Skadi's Chausses +7
Rajas Ring +5

Total: +30

Sacrifices in this build:
Fussetto < Kila w. +1 base damage AND either +6 STR +16 atk or +6 DEX +12 acc
This one is tough, Kilas offer so much in terms of DoT, its a hard sell.

Brisk Mask +6 acc +6 atk < Walahra Turban +1 Haste
Brisk Mask +1 Haste +1 atk < Anwig Salade +4 acc
This one is easy imo, Brisk mask should win. Plus it isn't ugly like turban

Goading Belt < Speed belt +1 Haste
Goading's +5 stp probably beats +1 haste here, would need more math

Skadi's Chausses +5 atk < Aurore Brais +1 Haste +5 acc
This is another tough one, I don't really think there is a clear winner on this one.

Anyway, the +30 sTP build would put you in a 17 hit build, essentially shaving 3 hits off of our trek to 100. Fusetto would apply to WS as well, so you should see at least 15 TP from fulling landed DE/EV. So you should be looking at roughly 14 hits to 100 tp after a full WS. The hardest sell of this config really I think is using Fusetto over another more damaging dagger like Kilas or Auric if you have it. What do you guys think.

PS: Obviously I don't have Brisk Mask or Goading Belt yet, was just looking at the potential of the build.
#2 Aug 12 2010 at 11:46 AM Rating: Decent
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Seems to me that this is a set-up where the OA2(2-3) weapons would really shine. Due to the delay on the weapon itself (typically higher than what a THF would equip), pair with the increase in hits, you would accumulate 100TP pretty quickly. Though most pieces are a downgrade from what you would be using, it would be interesting to see how the full Aurore set would play into a set up like this. If it shaved off a full attack round (due to rounding), would it be worth using? I am sure I will get the OA2-3 weapon at some point, where I can play around with this, but due to time constraints... that wont happen for a little while.
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#3 Aug 12 2010 at 6:41 PM Rating: Decent
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You forgot Belenos' Mantle 2stp which is also a solid tp piece in itself.

And since you talking Brisk Mask and Goading Belt which are both hard to get. You might want to add Ocelot Trousers. I would use those over skadi.
#4 Aug 14 2010 at 1:32 PM Rating: Good
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Let's use your TP set and WS set (signature links) as a baseline, substituting the equipment in question where appropriate, to get a sense of the difference in WS frequency (not that this is a difference in the overall rate of damage output). Assume 95% hit rate for both TP and WS and the use of a 5-hit weapon skill such as Dancing Edge or Evisceration.

Please point out any errors I may have made so I can fix them. Thanks.

Before store TP

Key conditions:
- 390 base delay for both weapons (before DW and haste is applied)
- 23% dual wield (15% for WS)
- 18% haste
- 5% double attack rate
- 6 store TP (11 for WS)

Consequences of the above stated conditions:
- 4.9 TP per hit (5.3 for WS)

Given the "ideal" of spamming WS continuously (without having to hold TP past 100 longer than necessary for whatever reason), the average number of attack rounds to get 100 TP is 9.33907 (where I got this calculation to be discussed later). The typical number (mode) of hits (after a 5-hit weapon skill) is 18, which makes sense as the typical "5-hit" weapon skill will have 6 landed hits, with TP 5.3*2 + 4*1.1 = 15 TP return. 85/4.9 = 17.34694, so then the required number of hits to get 100 TP after a 15-TP weapon skill is 18.

Then, the average time between weapon skills is (roughly) 9.33907*390*(1-.23)*(1-.18)/60 + 2 = 40.33 s.

After store TP

Key conditions:
- 381 base delay for both weapons (before DW and haste is applied)
- 23% dual wield (15% for WS)
- 17% haste
- 5% double attack rate
- 30 store TP (19 for WS)

Consequences of the above stated conditions:
- 6.1 TP per hit (5.7 for WS)

Given the "ideal" of spamming WS continuously (without having to hold TP past 100 longer than necessary for whatever reason), the average number of attack rounds to get 100 TP is 7.3342. The typical number (mode) of hits (after a 5-hit weapon skill) is 14, which makes sense as the typical "5-hit" weapon skill will have 6 landed hits, with TP 5.7*2 + 4*1.1 = 15.8 TP return. 84.2/6.1 = 13.80328, so then the required number of hits to get 100 TP after a 15.8-TP weapon skill is 14.

Then, the average time between weapon skills is (roughly) 7.3342*381*(1-.23)*(1-.17)/60 + 2 = 31.76 s.

Result, discussion, and conclusion

A note regarding the calculation of the average number of attack rounds to get 100 TP: this is based on a consideration of all possible outcomes for WS and possible outcomes for getting to 100 TP, given a particular TP return. It would take too much time to show particular calculations, but as you can see, the computed average number of rounds in both cases is close to the nominal number of attack rounds to get 100 TP, given that either 18 hits (9 rounds) or 14 hits (7 rounds) is needed.

Given the above conditions, the store TP setup has approximately a (40.33/31.76 - 1)% = 27% higher weapon skill frequency. (The difference will be less with higher levels of haste.) If weapon skill frequency is to be taken as a proxy measure of which setup could be better for DD (this is not necessarily true!), then the store TP setup is likely to be better even with 1% less haste than the original setup.

Edited, Aug 14th 2010 4:26pm by Antisense
#5 Aug 14 2010 at 10:41 PM Rating: Good
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My biggest gripe with the above post is that it uses the max sTP as the only change from the original setup and doesn't add a third scenario without the fusetto. Generally speaking the fusetto is a weaker dagger than the Kila's, and I've completed both a thunder and a fire version so I've experienced both. If we were to compare setups I would argue the above to be incomplete until you add a 3rd version.

Kila/Kila
Brisk Mask (4)
Brutal Earring (1)
Rajas Ring (5)
Belenos's mantle (2)
Goading belt (5)
Skadi's Chausses (7)

Total sTP == 24

When you're building a set there is no black and white when it comes to mixing/matching armor with the weapon choice like there is in the reverse. In fact the reason I think the second scenario would be stronger is because of superior armor choices. However I think the Fusetto holds the potential back.

Brisk Mask >>> Turban
Goading >>> Swift
Skadi's >> Aurore

The other pieces are constant across both sets and can be eliminated due to associativity. That leaves the dagger

sTP Fusetto vs a Kila

I just don't see the sTP fusetto worth adding to a STP build when the majority of sTP comes from the armor anyway. I'd much rather have a superior weapon and that brings me to my second gripe (albeit much smaller). Assuming 95% accuracy is inherently flawed because it doesn't pan out as simple in the game but for a simple example it's not a problem. Still, it's worth mentioning that if you can use the accuracy the Thunder Kila will give you more of both TP and DoT by landing hits that would have otherwise missed, and if your accuracy is at 95% I have very little doubt that the Fire Kila's 19 attack and fSTR + 1.5 is stronger than the weaponskill frequency the Fusetto would give in its place. I advocate adding more sTP into your tp set when plausible, but weapons are in a class of their own. Due to the fact that weapons cannot be swapped in and out like armor they require their own considerations when viewing their stats, because unlike armor these will be FULLTIME stats. You get the whole package deal the whole time; you can't mix and match. I agree with everything else that was said, but I wouldn't be so quick to add a Fusetto in your build if you already have an appropriate Kila ready for the task at hand.

Edited, Aug 15th 2010 12:48am by Melphina
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#6 Aug 14 2010 at 11:46 PM Rating: Good
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To be honest, I didn't even look at the Dakini attributes, but yes, if hit rate is nowhere close to being capped (for example, 87% or 88% is not very good), then an accuracy-based Kila can be shown to be superior to Fusetto with store TP. If anything, the above example should just be a motivating example to consider equipment with both store TP and other positive DD-oriented attributes (Goading Belt, Brisk Mask, and Belenos' Mantle) and don't worry as much about a loss of 1% or even 2% haste.

It could also be said the fire-based Magian "DD" weapons in general are very strong (see fire Taipan Fangs), so Fusetto (and most other daggers) pale in comparison to fire Kila.
#7 Aug 15 2010 at 5:10 AM Rating: Default
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Stp is nice if 1 or 2 can shave a round off between WS.

But.. I seen a lot of brisk mask goading belt etc posts, but never actually met anyone with one let alone both.

I say use the stp +100 Mega dagger. Obtained by killing every mob and completing all quests/missions in the game.
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#8 Aug 15 2010 at 8:24 AM Rating: Good
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Kevanff wrote:
Quote:
Stp is nice if 1 or 2 can shave a round off between WS.

But.. I seen a lot of brisk mask goading belt etc posts, but never actually met anyone with one let alone both.

I say use the stp +100 Mega dagger. Obtained by killing every mob and completing all quests/missions in the game.


Just because they are uncommon items doesn't mean we can't try to build our hypothetical "dream builds". It's this way of thinking that leads to progression because people are pushed to obtain said items and experience them. The Brisk Mask is a drop from Glavoid (which is also needed for the Twaster) and the Goading Belt is a reward from Lacovie so both items come from Anyssea-Tahrongi and Glavoid is required to get to Lacovie. While the new NM's in the future expansions will be even harder with better drops the level cap increases forthcoming will make the current abyssea zone bosses more bearable. Progression comes one step at a time and now that we know which mobs drop the items it's only a matter of time before people start farming them more readily. Also the Belenos's Mantle wiki page has finally been updated with a source to obtain it, the "Tonberry-Liege" in Abyssea Konstant. As information trickles in little by little and people become more familiar with the abyssean NM bosses on a whole the reward items will slowly become more common, so setting goals for the future is not unrealistic at all.

Edited, Aug 15th 2010 10:27am by Melphina
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#9 Aug 17 2010 at 12:59 PM Rating: Excellent
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I would also avoid using fusetto. If we are talking about dream builds with rare gear, there is no reason to be using the "easy" dagger from magians. The Kilas and the OAT Parazonium are far superior daggers. Even if acc is capped, Flame Kila/Paraz is the best non-relic level dagger combo you can get.

One should only make serious concessions to get more STP if you are a 2hander aiming at an X hit build. For example, going from a 7hit to 6hit as a 2hander is 20% increase in WS frequency. 6hit to 5hit is a 25% increase in WS OVER the 6hit. (7hit=WS+6 melee, 6=WS+5hit, 5=WS+4hit etc). Combine this with the fact that most 2handers overall damage is skewed much more towards WS and away from DPS to begin with and it makes perfect since to sacrifice damage for STP to increase the frequenct of their powerful WS.

Thf doesnt work this way. My Drg/Sam will usually be 50% WS, 40% melee, 10% jump damage. My thf will be closer to 60% melee, 40% WS with SA/TA falling under both categories depending on how much i stack SATA with WS. 2handers also have MUCH more consistency in their TP gain. The WS return far more consistent TP returns. Their TP from WS to 100tp is much more predictable. Thf is very difficult to even theorycraft TP gain due to DA, TA, lower acc than other melees, wildly variable WS returns, all compounded by Dual wield.

More of our damage comes from melee than WS. It is backwards to sacrifice melee damage for more WS unless it is a LOOOOT of STP for minimal loss in melee. Things like brisk mask do that without much, if any, negative tradeoffs. Fusetto takes a dive as your weapon is the single most important item to determine your melee DPS. Kila(str if acc cap, dex if not)+Paraz are going to beat the pants off of any fusetto combo and still net awesome TP gain due to paraz (and possibly acc from dex kila).

Otherwise, STP "builds" are fine so long as you dont get so caught up in it that you choose poor gear. But if the STP item is better than the alternative, you should be using it anyway (see skadi legs at lv 75). I guess what im saying is that STP "builds" shouldnt be neccessary because if the piece is good enough to warrent use, it would be used over the alternatives anyway. So if the best gear all has STP on it (goading/brisk/Skadi legs etc) then its not a 'STP build' its the 'ideal build' in general. When people talk about DA builds, STP builds, Crit builds, i immediately get a negative reaction because the idea being put forth is usually to sacrifice perfectly good gear to get more of your "XX build" stat which never makes any since. If the pieces can stand alone, they will stand as a set (see skadi legs). Fusetto is falling into the trap of "It has XX stat and i want an XX Stat build!" even though it is inferior in ANY build. (Its a great dagger, i use it now, but it is not the BEST dagger. As soon as my kila's and Paraz are done, its gone until we see what the expansion of the magian stuff gives come lv 90+)

Edited, Aug 17th 2010 3:15pm by Banalaty
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#10 Aug 18 2010 at 7:45 AM Rating: Decent
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Some Tonberry-Liege info:

Tonberry-Liege is a lotto pop NM. The PH is the top Cryptonberry Occultist in the widescan list.
Wiki has the wrong information. Wiki says timed pop which is not true!
Cryptonberry Occultist are found at K-4 Abyssea - Konschtat.

NM repop time is 40-60 min not 100% sure on repop time. The rest of the wiki info is correct. NM will cast:
Fire V, Fire IV, Firaga III, Flare, Flare II, and Firaga IV.
Starts out with Firaga III, Fire IV, Flare.
When HP reaches below 50% its Flare turns AoE
Higher Tier spells like Fire V, Flare II and Firaga IV will only be used below 50% HP.

Tonberry-Liege has perma blaze-spikes and enfire which you can't dispel. Aura steal also does not work against blaze-spikes. Blaze-spikes will do more damage as it's HP gets lower. At start I was getting hit for 40-50 dmg. At the end 200+ dmg. A thf can literally kill himself/herself by tping on Tonberry-Liege.

That said the NM is rather easy to kill. Kite nuke works best since the NM will stop often to cast a spell. rdm/nin can solo with temp items from NPC. Thf can still do damage with SA and ranged attacks. A whm with 5/5 shellra and aff solace barfira is very nice to have for this fight.

First time we wiped because our brd ran out of abysea time when we pulled NM. JP group took over and killed NM and got mantle. Second time we held NM with thf, whm, rdm/rng (lolwidescan). We waited till smn and rdm/nin came to help. Then killed NM. 1/1 on Belenos' Mantle not counting the JP kill.

Edited, Aug 18th 2010 4:08pm by Breaze
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