Time for a ChangeFollow

Why are we talking about exp parties at all? Saying that THF was useful in EXP back in 2003 is completely NOT relevant to THF being useful on HNMs in 2010.

Hate control was relevant in 2003, it is not relevant now.

The mobs we were fighting with yokodama were EXP mobs, not HNM (yokodama was removed in the November/December 2003 update and FFXI was released in North America in October 2003, 99.9% of THFs had NOT reached endgame before the change happened)

What HNMs existed back then were pansies compared to HNMs that were added after COP so even the JP THFs at the time can't be compared because the HNMs they were fighting were easier.




Edited, Aug 8th 2010 7:49pm by Lobivopis

I disagree with every one of your points except for possibly A. You might be right, jobs that were once top dog have gotten tossed aside again. I'll concede that my hopes for change because of just being on top once are empty.

B would mean that after the 2hand original buff broke the game in half, SE would have then nerfed them into oblivion rather than leaving the game cracked after breaking it and gluing it back together. The RNG nerf is not relevant to this argument either, as they were never buffed in the first place.

C I argued that since 997/1000 thfs were bandwagon already what would it hurt to pile a few more on to the bandwagon, I'm not sure how C was a rebuttal to my point.

D I disagree with wholeheartedly. Are the SAMs that were pushing what Samurai could do before the Y/G/K and 2handed buffs worse off than what they were before? Hell no they aren't. They're the pimp of the pimp of the pimp, showing the bandwagoners how it's done.

Ninjas were not built to be tanks.
Thieves were not built to be DDs.

What is the difference between the two statements? SE listened to the players and helped make Ninja into a tank. Ninjas evolved into the tank job and there is no reason Thieves cannot do the same thing with being a DD. The only difference is SE has done very little to help Thieves if anything at all. The biggest thing, that SE has done to help us, is the dagger damage upgrade. The Assassin upgrade was done to keep us from becoming sub-job only not to actually buff us. As a matter of fact, it seems as if all our upgrades have been to keep us from getting too weak not to actually buff us.

I am not saying that such buffs were no good, just that they were not good enough for what is needed.

A new 2 hour ability is probably the number one thing the majority of thieves agree on and I couldn't agree more.

I personally think thief has been getting dumped on so much because they keep giving other jobs the job abilities, traits, ect that could fit the THF theme well but didn't want to share them.

Such as: Dodge, Absorb-XXX, Duel Wield, Accuracy Bonus and tool use to name a some.

Dodge just screams THF to me and I still have no idea why we don't have it. Absorb-XXX just screams Steal-XXX to me. Is there really a reason why we couldn't have this?

To help our damage dealing native Duel Wield and Accuracy Bonus could help a lot. Duel Wield for obvious reasons and Accuracy Bonus would let us switch a few accuracy armor pieces for damage pieces.

Tool use is just something that Thief type characters seem to always have in any game I have played. Right now the only real tools I can think that we use are the status bolts. Which with a C+ skill in Marksmanship, they don't land nearly accurately enough without massive gear swaps, not to mention the tendency for the effects to not proc when really needed.

Thief needs a real buff and not just another lets keep it from being to weak upgrade.

I was merely stating, that above all else, the 2 hour is the most agreed upon wanted change.

If it is, it's only because the loudest voices are the most ignorant.

Feint does more for our ability to get into a situation where we'd be needed for our 2 hour than anything else and for me I get to use it many times per hour.

Hello!

I really enjoy reading this thread, and I definitely want to sign the petition.

A few thoughts based on what I've read so far:

1) Trick Attack problem: It looks like most DDs don't like getting TA on them, especially in TP burn type situations. I'd like to see thf join the other jobs that has dual stances (example: WHM, SAM). In both stances, TA would change the position of the trick partner in the hate list. In the "add" stance, TA would plant hate (based on the hit or WS) on the trick partner. In the "take" stance, it would *remove* hate from the trick partner. The trick partner might go up or down a position or two in the hate list based on the strength of the TA (see #2). TA would continue boost the damage a mob would take from the hit (but see #2). The new TA would be different from collaborate or accomplice which "steals" hate from a party member and gives it to the thf, with no damage given to the mob. Ideally, with "normal stance" TA, the mob would turn to the trick partner, with the "hate remove" stance, the mob would turn *away* from the trick partner.

2) Positioning problem: I agree with other people in this thread that SE should change SA and TA back to the old method. By this I mean, if the mob can't see you, SA and TA goes off. To me, this means outside the mob's arc of vision. Any person in the alliance could be the thf's partner based on who is closest to the thf. (see #1 for the TA problem) SE can do something equivalent to what was done with RNG, increasing the effectiveness of SA or TA based on position. If the thf is in the sweet spot directly behind someone, there would be 100% effectiveness. but on the side only 60 or 75% effectiveness. The change should not effect using Hide with SA or TA.

3) New thf 2 hour: I'd like to see the thf 2 hour involve transferring or stopping the mob's TP gain. For example, the thf hits the mob near his 2-hour partner which could be any person in the alliance. After that, for a short period (perhaps 30 seconds unmerited -- but it would be nice if it could be made longer) every hit the mob takes results in the 2 hour partner getting TP, not the mob.

4) New Perfect Dodge: PD would be changed to a JA with a long timer, perhaps 10 minutes, meritable to 5 minutes, and last for about 10 seconds.

What do you all think?

Janaka.

well, why not let perfect dodge be like perfect counter? they are semantically similar, why not let them be functionally similar as well? If i understood perfect counter correctly, it works like a 100% counter seigan. This means we would get our very own third eye+seigan, not countering or antecipating, but dodging. Perfect dodge would then be a damage mitigation tool that lasts up to 30 secs and has 1min recast.

That means we could probably /dnc it for a while (until dw3), adding even more utility to the job without sacrificing much of our defenses.

Perfect Dodge functioning as Perfect Counter would be better than it's current state, I'll give him. I like Lobivopis' idea better, however. 30 second duration, high recast.

signed, but I would like to request higher tier of TH and more TH gears NOT weapon ! not the f*****g lvl 70 dagger ... hmm... actually, SE please listen, NO TH from WEAPON ! Except that add TH+10 to Mandau !!!!

2 Stances for SATA

Stance 1 useful for TP burns, big events etc:

Trick Attack removes the same amount of enmity (from the target player) it would add based on damage.

Sneak Attack works from anywhere but right in front of the Mobs frontal cone of vision.


Stance 2, Useful for Tanked HNMS, etc:

Sneak Attack, Trick Attaack and Hide timers are reduced

Trick Attack Transfers enmity.

Sneak Attack only works from directly behind but gereates reduced enmity.

Hide removes you from the hate list, regardless of mob detection.


Edited, Sep 6th 2010 8:50am by ThiefKiller

Lets hope atleast Tom can do anything for you THFs.

The TP feed issue is terribly overblown. There ARE times that TP feed is an issue and thf suffers more. However the idea that we are turned away from an alli in MOST situations (anything you melee with a full DD party or more) due to PT feed is ludicrous. If you have more than 4+ DDs on it, it will get TP every ~5-6 seconds anyway.

If people gave a shat about TP gain:
*DDs would NEVER be hasted. EVER.
*Any and all multi hit weapons would be banned from melee
*People wouldnt use DDs practically at all in favor of magic/quickdraw/jumps/WS onry strats.

Most of the mobs in this game are not chariots with 1-2 mnk tanks with gear/rolls capping subtle blow spamming penance.

Most mobs are going to fall into 1 extreme or the other. Either you are:
*meleeing along with bajillions of people and Thf TP gain is a drop in the bucket (TP gain irrelivant. Mob has 100+ TP every ~2 sec)
OR
*the TP moves are devastating AOEs so you have ranged damage (no/few melees due to mp sponging more than TP spam)
OR
*you are lowmanning/special case mobs where ALL DDs are limited in their melee (IE Sam or /sam WS onry.

This is not to say that thf gets the shaft in the damage/tp ratio moreso than just about anyone in the game. Its true. But the idea that a Thf meleeing suddenly turns a mob with 4-5 DDs on it into a TP spamming death machine is completely overstated AND that this is the primary reason thf is not a practical HNM job is just not true. If the playerbase believes this, they are simply misguided. Misguided players that perceive the job in as worse than it actually is are not a reason to change actual game mechanics. Broken game mechanics that force a job into a poor position are. Just because players "think" something is OP/UP does not necessitate a change. EG: "OMG SAMZ IZ BORKED!!! When its not nearly as powerful as the hype does not mean sam should get nerfed just because players "think" its broken. Similarly "OMG PUP SUX!" doesnt make it true, nor a reason to buff them out the ass.

As I have said a few times, this just feeds into it. If a job is looked down on because its misunderstood and actually quite good, then the job is fine. If the job is ACTUALLY poor and that is why it is looked down on, it does need to be adjusted. In both cases the playerbase scoffs at it. Player perception is not adequate reasoning in and of itself because it is inherently biased and flawed.

They just added "enhances Despoil" to 2 pieces of AF3. They really do think that Despoil is a useful ability.

That makes me loose all hope.


Edited, Sep 8th 2010 7:36pm by Lobivopis

I haven't really played a lot in the last few years. Enough to play catch up in game, but I've not followed all the math despite most of it being largely unchanged.

Anyway!

I thought TP gain for the player was supposed to be mostly proportional to the delay of the weapon you are hitting with and I thought monsters gained your TP gain +2.

If that's correct, it'd mean that faster hitting attacks will tend to give more TP per damage done than slower attacks.

5.5 to 6TP or whatever it is that you make per hit while using parazonium OAThrice in your off hand means at lot of 7.5 to 8TP per hit you give the mob. Those little 2TPs are almost a ~35% increase over what you make as a thf.

Another class swinging and making 12TP per hit, their little 2TPs are a ~17% increase for the mob over what they'd make.

Thinking about it more, StoreTP may not affect the amount the mob gets, and it might have even been 3TP extra for the mob instead of 2 more than what you make.

In any case, mob TP is less proportional on delay than player TP. Your opponent's love your faster attacks for less dmg because they get lots of free +2 or +3 TPs per hit landed.

Edited, Sep 9th 2010 12:04am by Torzak

Yeah it is a bit overblown.

Here are some numbers I did awhile back,

SpoilerCross-Comparison
Thief/Nin
Equip: Blau/Sirocco, x, Turban, x, Brutal, Suppa, Corazza, Homam Hands, Rajas, x, x, Swift, Homam Legs, Homam Feet
Other Stuff: Capped Triple Merits (5%) ; Native Triple (5%) ; Subtle Blow II (10%); No dragon-set equipment or peiste belt+1 used; No /war, so no native Double-Attack
-Delay/hand(Dual Wield) = 131.2 = 131
-HasteTotal = Gear(18%) + Spell(26%) = 44%
-Delay(w/ Haste) = 131 * (1 - 0.44) = 73.36 = 73
-Multi-Procs = 5*2(Native) + 5*2(Merits) + 5(Brutal) + 2.5*2(Corazza) = 30ExtraHits/100; Multiplier = 1.3
-BaseTP/Hit = 4.5
-Subtle Blow Total = Native(10%) + Gear(5%) = 15%
-Factoid - Just for interest, with 95% accuracy and constant swinging, this would give 286.25 tp to the player in 1 minute (w/ storetp), or, assuming a base TP of 13% after each WS, 3.29 WS's per minute assuming no TP surplus, or rather, TP13->100% in 18.237 seconds.
TpGiven/Minute: (4.5 + 3)*(1 - 0.15) * (3600 / 73)*1.3 = 7.5*0.85 * 49.315*1.3 = 6.3*64.110 = 403.89

Thief/War
-Delay(blau) = 178
-HasteTotal = 44%
-Delay(w/ Haste) = 178 * (1 - 0.44) = 99.68 = 99
-Multi-Procs = 5*2(Native) + 5*2(Merits) + 5(Brutal) + 2.5*2(Corazza) + 10(sub Native) = 40ExtraHits/100; Multiplier = 1.4
-BaseTP/Hit = 4.98 = 4.9
-Subtle Blow Total = (Rajas) 5%
TpGiven/Minute: (4.9 + 3)*(1 - 0.05) * (3600 / 99)*1.4 = 7.9 * 36.364*1.4 = 7.9*50.909 = 382.07

Monk/Nin
Equip: Destroyers, x, Turban, x, Brutal, x, x, x, x, x, Rajas, Black Belt, Haidates, x
Other Stuff: Capped Kick-Attack Merits (5%) ; Native Kick-Attack Trait (10%) ; Subtle Blow IV (20%); No /war, so no native Double-Attack; No AF2 Hands used; No tp given from counter considered
-Base Monk Delay at 75 (Martial Arts VI) = 300, Destroyers Delay = +48;
-Delay/round = 348
-HasteTotal = Gear(22%) + Spell(26%) = 48%
-Delay/swing(w/ Haste) = (348 / 2) * (1 - 0.48 ) = 90.48 = 90
-Multi-Procs = 10(Native) + 5(Merits) + 5(Brutal) = 20ExtraHits/100; Multiplier = 1.2
-BaseTP/Hit = 4.5
-Subtle Blow Total = Native(20%) + Gear(10%) = 30%
TpGiven/Minute: (4.5 + 3)*(1 - 0.3) * (3600 / 90)*1.2 = 7.5*0.75 * 40*1.2 = 5.6*48 = 252.00

Ninja/War
Equip: Senji/Perdu, x, Turban, x, Brutal, Suppa, x, Dusk Gloves, Rajas, x, x, Swift, Haidates, Fuma
Other Stuff: Dual Wield IV (30%); Subtle Blow V (25%); Native /war Double-Attack (10%); Subtle Blow Merits (5%); No AF body used,
-Delay/hand(Dual Wield) = 135.525 = 135
-HasteTotal = Gear(20%) + Spell(26%) = 46%
-Delay(w/ Haste) = 135 * (1 - 0.46) = 72.9 = 72
-Multi-Procs = 10(sub Native) + 5(Brutal) = 15ExtraHits/100; Multiplier = 1.15
-BaseTP/Hit = 4.6
-Subtle Blow Total = Native(25%) + Gear(5%) + Merits(5%)= 35%
TpGiven/Minute: (4.6 + 3)*(1 - 0.35) * (3600 / 72)*1.15 = 7.6*0.7 * 50*1.15 = 5.3*57.5 = 284.05

Samurai/War
Equip = Hagun, PoleStrap, x, Askar/Ace's, x, Brutal, x, x, Dusk Gloves, Rajas, x, x, Swift, Haidates, Fuma
Other Stuff = Native /war Double-Attack (10%); No Zanshin attacks considered; Hasso not considered (we'll pretend seigan full-time)
-Delay = 450
-HasteTotal = Gear(19%) + Spell(26%) = 45%
Delay(w/ Haste) = 247.5 = 247
-Multi-Procs = 10(sub Native) + 5(Brutal) + 2(Strap) = 17ExtraHits/100; Multiplier = 1.17
-Base TP/Hit = 11.5
-Subtle Blow Total = Gear(5%) = 5%
TpGiven/Minute: (11.5 + 3)*(1 - 0.05) * (3600 / 247)*1.17 = 14.5*0.95 * 14.575*1.17 = 13.7*17.053 = 233.62

Thief/Nin (Corazza -> DH, etc)
-Subtle Blow from gear: Rajas + DH = 15
TpGiven/Minute: 7.5*(1 - 0.25) * (3600 / 73)*1.25 = 7.5*0.75 * 49.315*1.25 = 5.6*61.644 = 345.21
-
Thief/Nin (an S.B. Build; D.H. + D.Subligar + PeisteBelt+1) & H.Q. S.B. Set
-HasteTotal = Gear(11%) + Spell(26%) = 37%
-Delay(w/ Haste) = 131 *(1 - 0.37) = 82.53 = 82
-Subtle Blow from gear (NQ set): Rajas + DH + DragonSubligar/Enkidu'sSubligar + PeisteBelt+1 = 30%
-Subtle Blow from gear (HQ set): Rajas + DH+1 + DragonSubligar+1 + PeisteBelt+1 = 33%
TpGiven/Minute(NQ): 7.5*(1 - 0.4) * (3600 / 82)*1.25 = 7.5*0.6 * 43.902*1.25 = 4.5*54.878 = 246.95
TpGiven/Minute(HQ): 7.5*(1 - 0.43) * (3600 / 82)*1.25 = 7.5*0.57 * 43.902*1.25 = 4.2*54.878 = 230.49
*Estimated*50%SB Build: less than 7.5*(1 - 0.5) * (3600 / 82)*1.25 = less than 205.79

When you have a critical amount of people hitting a mob, or rather, the mob has a critical rate of TP gain, it doesn't really matter that one DD feeds more TP or not. But I doubt many people in FFXI have a good feel for what that critical amount is.



Also, with every update, they keep adding better and better subtle blow gear. Like this new neck with 8 accuracy and 8 attack also has 5 subtle blow iirc. Rings with 3 acc, 3 eva, and 7 subtle blow each. Pair these with our other subtle blow options to give us a competitive option in the subtlety department.