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#102 Aug 08 2010 at 4:37 PM Rating: Decent
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TybudX wrote:
THF was a puller. Nobody cared that they couldn't DD.

Sure. And it's a total coincidence that immediately after the Yokodama nerf, suddenly the demand for THF's pulling skills dropped like a rock.
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#103 Aug 08 2010 at 4:42 PM Rating: Excellent
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redvenomweb wrote:
TybudX wrote:
THF was a puller. Nobody cared that they couldn't DD.

Sure. And it's a total coincidence that immediately after the Yokodama nerf, suddenly the demand for THF's pulling skills dropped like a rock.


Why are we talking about exp parties at all? Saying that THF was useful in EXP back in 2003 is completely NOT relevant to THF being useful on HNMs in 2010.

Hate control was relevant in 2003, it is not relevant now.

The mobs we were fighting with yokodama were EXP mobs, not HNM (yokodama was removed in the November/December 2003 update and FFXI was released in North America in October 2003, 99.9% of THFs had NOT reached endgame before the change happened)

What HNMs existed back then were pansies compared to HNMs that were added after COP so even the JP THFs at the time can't be compared because the HNMs they were fighting were easier.




Edited, Aug 8th 2010 7:49pm by Lobivopis
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I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#104 Aug 08 2010 at 8:23 PM Rating: Decent
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AldousCayo wrote:
I've played since January of '04, I've been around for many of the buffs and nerfs that changed the way we play the game. I want a buff that changes THF for the better. Even if we aren't top dog for very long just being top dog will do tons for the perceptions that keep us down. Why would it be bad? We'd have to deal with bandwagon thfs? We don't have TH mules already? A massive buff for THF would be nothing but good for the THFs that already know what they're doing, which I'm pretty sure most of us on this board are.


I can't believe what I'm replying to.

If you have been around for as long as you claim you have, then you ought to know by know that:

a) making us top dog for a while isn't going to change perceptions unless it stays that way
b) if (a) happens then there is a near 100% chance that we will be nerfed because what you're asking for in a) is too powerful, meaning we will likely be nerfed to not only be worse off on HNM but worse off on everything else too
c) 997/1000 thieves are bandwagon already (my last Abyssea party saw a 71 thief show up full timing Rogue's Cullote and Dragon Hat...everyone else thought this was perfectly fine)
d) a massive buff for Thief would change everything, not just bring to light the Thieves that know what they are doing. Which is horrible because the thieves that know what they are doing wouldn't shine anymore than they already do now.

Seriously, think about the consequences of what you ask for before just barfing words onto a forum. SE does read these forums and unfortunately usually takes the worst possible suggestions and makes them their next top change.

Edited, Aug 9th 2010 9:28am by TheBarrister
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#105 Aug 08 2010 at 9:38 PM Rating: Good
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I can't believe what I'm replying to.

If you have been around for as long as you claim you have, then you out to know by know that:

a) making us top dog for a while isn't going to change perceptions unless it stays that way
b) if (a) happens then there is a near 100% chance that we will be nerfed because what you're asking for in a) is too powerful, meaning we will likely be nerfed to not only be worse off on HNM but worse off on everything else too
c) 997/1000 thieves are bandwagon already (my last Abyssea party saw a 71 thief show up full timing Rogue's Cullote and Dragon Hat...everyone else thought this was perfectly fine)
d) a massive buff for Thief would change everything, not just bring to light the Thieves that know what they are doing. Which is horrible because the thieves that know what they are doing wouldn't shine anymore than they already do now.

Seriously, think about the consequences of what you ask for before just barfing words onto a forum. SE does read these forums and unfortunately usually takes the worst possible suggestions and makes them their next top change.


I disagree with every one of your points except for possibly A. You might be right, jobs that were once top dog have gotten tossed aside again. I'll concede that my hopes for change because of just being on top once are empty.

B would mean that after the 2hand original buff broke the game in half, SE would have then nerfed them into oblivion rather than leaving the game cracked after breaking it and gluing it back together. The RNG nerf is not relevant to this argument either, as they were never buffed in the first place.

C I argued that since 997/1000 thfs were bandwagon already what would it hurt to pile a few more on to the bandwagon, I'm not sure how C was a rebuttal to my point.

D I disagree with wholeheartedly. Are the SAMs that were pushing what Samurai could do before the Y/G/K and 2handed buffs worse off than what they were before? Hell no they aren't. They're the pimp of the pimp of the pimp, showing the bandwagoners how it's done.
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#106 Aug 11 2010 at 2:00 PM Rating: Default
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How about instead of changing previous abilities (other than possibly the cone for SA) we come up with some possiblities for new ones? Here is my thought for a new ability maybe in the upcoming levels.

It will be called Multiply. Creates a copy of the THF dividing the emnity between the copy and the THF. The copy will be stationary but will still swing as the normal THF does (even possibly at 50% damage compared to the THF / or even make it have the stats of the THF lvl only with no SJ). You will be able to TA the copy transferring more emnity to the copy and setting up for the ability to SA in a solo situation. Copy will dissapear after idk 20-30 seconds or if it is KO'd by taking hits and the eminty disappears with it. Put it on any timer found suitable by SE (depending on how much damage ability they give it).

Something like this would be a perfect fit for THF. It sticks with the general idea that SE has about THF (hate control), it increases the soloability of THF, increases your damage potential, no more people moving out of the way of your TA, adds the ability to SA/TA back in a party situation, no party damage for a very limited amount of time.

Thoughts?
#107 Aug 11 2010 at 5:20 PM Rating: Decent
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Ninjas were not built to be tanks.
Thieves were not built to be DDs.

What is the difference between the two statements? SE listened to the players and helped make Ninja into a tank. Ninjas evolved into the tank job and there is no reason Thieves cannot do the same thing with being a DD. The only difference is SE has done very little to help Thieves if anything at all. The biggest thing, that SE has done to help us, is the dagger damage upgrade. The Assassin upgrade was done to keep us from becoming sub-job only not to actually buff us. As a matter of fact, it seems as if all our upgrades have been to keep us from getting too weak not to actually buff us.

I am not saying that such buffs were no good, just that they were not good enough for what is needed.

A new 2 hour ability is probably the number one thing the majority of thieves agree on and I couldn't agree more.

I personally think thief has been getting dumped on so much because they keep giving other jobs the job abilities, traits, ect that could fit the THF theme well but didn't want to share them.

Such as: Dodge, Absorb-XXX, Duel Wield, Accuracy Bonus and tool use to name a some.

Dodge just screams THF to me and I still have no idea why we don't have it. Absorb-XXX just screams Steal-XXX to me. Is there really a reason why we couldn't have this?

To help our damage dealing native Duel Wield and Accuracy Bonus could help a lot. Duel Wield for obvious reasons and Accuracy Bonus would let us switch a few accuracy armor pieces for damage pieces.

Tool use is just something that Thief type characters seem to always have in any game I have played. Right now the only real tools I can think that we use are the status bolts. Which with a C+ skill in Marksmanship, they don't land nearly accurately enough without massive gear swaps, not to mention the tendency for the effects to not proc when really needed.

Thief needs a real buff and not just another lets keep it from being to weak upgrade.
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#108 Aug 11 2010 at 5:27 PM Rating: Decent
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Masterlinktm wrote:
A new 2 hour ability is probably the number one thing the majority of thieves agree on and I couldn't agree more.

It is difficult for me to express how strongly I believe that this is among the worst of all possible solutions.

You're asking for an update which, at most, can be used once every two hours. What zerg fight is it that you are missing out on? Bahamut v2? King V? It's definitely not Dynamis Lord (every DD in the zone can engage him) and this would do virtually nothing at all for something like Kirin (where it's common to fight him many times back-to-back).

So what problem does this solve? Which DD would you be replacing if you get, say, Mighty Strikes as your 2hr?

Edited, Aug 11th 2010 4:27pm by redvenomweb
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#109 Aug 11 2010 at 5:56 PM Rating: Good
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redvenomweb wrote:
Masterlinktm wrote:

A new 2 hour ability is probably the number one thing the majority of thieves agree on and I couldn't agree more.


It is difficult for me to express how strongly I believe that this is among the worst of all possible solutions.

You're asking for an update which, at most, can be used once every two hours. What zerg fight is it that you are missing out on? Bahamut v2? King V? It's definitely not Dynamis Lord (every DD in the zone can engage him) and this would do virtually nothing at all for something like Kirin (where it's common to fight him many times back-to-back).

So what problem does this solve? Which DD would you be replacing if you get, say, Mighty Strikes as your 2hr?


I was merely stating, that above all else, the 2 hour is the most agreed upon wanted change.
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#110 Aug 11 2010 at 6:10 PM Rating: Excellent
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Have to agree with RVW on this instance. A stronger 2hr will not be game-changing for us. We need an upgrade that is constant.

Something as simple as native dual-wield would increase our offense quite a bit when it's feasable to /war. If a thf can't /war, it's likely the other melee can't /sam in the same situation, so they lose a good deal of their offensive advantage (hasso).

It's been said, but the update to dnc feels like a low-blow to the thieves. Grats to them, I'm happy for them. I alliance with them, so all buffs welcome. But as of now they can deal more damage than us. Can heal on the fly. Have an easier time soloing (we could technically carry hi-pots for self healing, but evasion is similar, and they have fan dance). And gives a 10% /ja haste buff (important, because it can stack with the easier capped magical haste and gear haste). stun. Other things.

What does thief currently get to offset being weaker than the other dagger class? Treasure Hunter, Feint, gimmicky steals, and "hate control." I'm just kind of disgusted with the current situation. At least before, we had superior damage in exchange for their other advantages.

Well, /rant off. I like some of the ideas here, such as crit rate + to offset our neglected attack stat. Keep posting ideas. Something might actually stick in SE's collective head.
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#111 Aug 11 2010 at 6:38 PM Rating: Default
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Masterlinktm wrote:
redvenomweb wrote:
Masterlinktm wrote:

A new 2 hour ability is probably the number one thing the majority of thieves agree on and I couldn't agree more.


It is difficult for me to express how strongly I believe that this is among the worst of all possible solutions.

You're asking for an update which, at most, can be used once every two hours. What zerg fight is it that you are missing out on? Bahamut v2? King V? It's definitely not Dynamis Lord (every DD in the zone can engage him) and this would do virtually nothing at all for something like Kirin (where it's common to fight him many times back-to-back).

So what problem does this solve? Which DD would you be replacing if you get, say, Mighty Strikes as your 2hr?


I was merely stating, that above all else, the 2 hour is the most agreed upon wanted change.


If it is, it's only because the loudest voices are the most ignorant.

Feint does more for our ability to get into a situation where we'd be needed for our 2 hour than anything else and for me I get to use it many times per hour.
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#112 Aug 12 2010 at 5:02 AM Rating: Excellent
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The problem with THF is the same as pet jobs : SE's been really scared to favor them because if they were "best" choice for damage in most circumstances, no one in their right mind will play any of the other jobs. Best damage, treasure hunter, hate control all in one ? Who needs SAM DRK WAR DRG MNK unless you need specific SCs ? That's why SE found it best to favor damage for 2 handed jobs because most jobs using 1 handed weapons have added utility to them. That utility is more or less used by the player base. As it stands now no one appreciates hate control in most things requiring an alliance. I think giving more unique debuffs to THF like Feint (which unlike DNC doesn't require TP, just a JA use) or some JA AoE buffs would be a right way to give THF more popularity, as long as those JAs can be kept on a relatively low timer (no more than 3 min).
#113 Aug 12 2010 at 5:12 PM Rating: Excellent
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Hello!

I really enjoy reading this thread, and I definitely want to sign the petition.

A few thoughts based on what I've read so far:

1) Trick Attack problem: It looks like most DDs don't like getting TA on them, especially in TP burn type situations. I'd like to see thf join the other jobs that has dual stances (example: WHM, SAM). In both stances, TA would change the position of the trick partner in the hate list. In the "add" stance, TA would plant hate (based on the hit or WS) on the trick partner. In the "take" stance, it would *remove* hate from the trick partner. The trick partner might go up or down a position or two in the hate list based on the strength of the TA (see #2). TA would continue boost the damage a mob would take from the hit (but see #2). The new TA would be different from collaborate or accomplice which "steals" hate from a party member and gives it to the thf, with no damage given to the mob. Ideally, with "normal stance" TA, the mob would turn to the trick partner, with the "hate remove" stance, the mob would turn *away* from the trick partner.

2) Positioning problem: I agree with other people in this thread that SE should change SA and TA back to the old method. By this I mean, if the mob can't see you, SA and TA goes off. To me, this means outside the mob's arc of vision. Any person in the alliance could be the thf's partner based on who is closest to the thf. (see #1 for the TA problem) SE can do something equivalent to what was done with RNG, increasing the effectiveness of SA or TA based on position. If the thf is in the sweet spot directly behind someone, there would be 100% effectiveness. but on the side only 60 or 75% effectiveness. The change should not effect using Hide with SA or TA.

3) New thf 2 hour: I'd like to see the thf 2 hour involve transferring or stopping the mob's TP gain. For example, the thf hits the mob near his 2-hour partner which could be any person in the alliance. After that, for a short period (perhaps 30 seconds unmerited -- but it would be nice if it could be made longer) every hit the mob takes results in the 2 hour partner getting TP, not the mob.

4) New Perfect Dodge: PD would be changed to a JA with a long timer, perhaps 10 minutes, meritable to 5 minutes, and last for about 10 seconds.

What do you all think?

Janaka.

#114 Aug 13 2010 at 7:18 PM Rating: Good
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janaka wrote:
Hello!

I really enjoy reading this thread, and I definitely want to sign the petition.

A few thoughts based on what I've read so far:

1) Trick Attack problem: It looks like most DDs don't like getting TA on them, especially in TP burn type situations. I'd like to see thf join the other jobs that has dual stances (example: WHM, SAM). In both stances, TA would change the position of the trick partner in the hate list. In the "add" stance, TA would plant hate (based on the hit or WS) on the trick partner. In the "take" stance, it would *remove* hate from the trick partner. The trick partner might go up or down a position or two in the hate list based on the strength of the TA (see #2). TA would continue boost the damage a mob would take from the hit (but see #2). The new TA would be different from collaborate or accomplice which "steals" hate from a party member and gives it to the thf, with no damage given to the mob. Ideally, with "normal stance" TA, the mob would turn to the trick partner, with the "hate remove" stance, the mob would turn *away* from the trick partner.

2) Positioning problem: I agree with other people in this thread that SE should change SA and TA back to the old method. By this I mean, if the mob can't see you, SA and TA goes off. To me, this means outside the mob's arc of vision. Any person in the alliance could be the thf's partner based on who is closest to the thf. (see #1 for the TA problem) SE can do something equivalent to what was done with RNG, increasing the effectiveness of SA or TA based on position. If the thf is in the sweet spot directly behind someone, there would be 100% effectiveness. but on the side only 60 or 75% effectiveness. The change should not effect using Hide with SA or TA.


Add a new JA that forces a crit with a 50% DEX bonus (2 DEX = 1 DMG) on the next hit without regard to position with a 30 second cooldown which shares SA's timer. This fixes both the positioning problem and the fact that a hasted well geared THF gets TP way faster than the SATA timers cool off.

Quote:
3) New thf 2 hour: I'd like to see the thf 2 hour involve transferring or stopping the mob's TP gain. For example, the thf hits the mob near his 2-hour partner which could be any person in the alliance. After that, for a short period (perhaps 30 seconds unmerited -- but it would be nice if it could be made longer) every hit the mob takes results in the 2 hour partner getting TP, not the mob.


Nobody would need that and stopping a mob's TP for 30 seconds isn't likely to make much of a difference anyway.

Quote:

4) New Perfect Dodge: PD would be changed to a JA with a long timer, perhaps 10 minutes, meritable to 5 minutes, and last for about 10 seconds.


That would cause PD to be essentially worthless. Leave the duration at 30 seconds and reduce the timer to 20 minutes.



Edited, Aug 13th 2010 10:25pm by Lobivopis
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I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#115 Aug 14 2010 at 11:50 AM Rating: Default
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well, why not let perfect dodge be like perfect counter? they are semantically similar, why not let them be functionally similar as well? If i understood perfect counter correctly, it works like a 100% counter seigan. This means we would get our very own third eye+seigan, not countering or antecipating, but dodging. Perfect dodge would then be a damage mitigation tool that lasts up to 30 secs and has 1min recast.

That means we could probably /dnc it for a while (until dw3), adding even more utility to the job without sacrificing much of our defenses.
#116 Aug 14 2010 at 12:32 PM Rating: Good
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ThiefKiller wrote:
I could care less what stupid people think.
Sometimes, certain phrases are too good NOT to pass up. Heh heh. It's "I COULDN'T care less."

As for the poster above, and their 1 minute recast on Perfect Dodge? Yeah, bad idea.
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#117 Aug 14 2010 at 2:01 PM Rating: Good
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Perfect Dodge functioning as Perfect Counter would be better than it's current state, I'll give him. I like Lobivopis' idea better, however. 30 second duration, high recast.
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#118 Aug 25 2010 at 5:28 AM Rating: Good
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How would you guys feel about requesting a stance kind of JA that, among other things, alters the way Trick attack works. IE, under this stance, instead of giving enmity to the target, it decreases their enmity by a certain amount. Or something a DD in a TP burn party would want to have on them.
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#119 Aug 25 2010 at 8:43 AM Rating: Default
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signed, but I would like to request higher tier of TH and more TH gears NOT weapon ! not the f*****g lvl 70 dagger ... hmm... actually, SE please listen, NO TH from WEAPON ! Except that add TH+10 to Mandau !!!!
#120 Aug 25 2010 at 4:46 PM Rating: Good
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chichicha wrote:
signed, but I would like to request higher tier of TH and more TH gears NOT weapon ! not the f*****g lvl 70 dagger ... hmm... actually, SE please listen, NO TH from WEAPON ! Except that add TH+10 to Mandau !!!!


Unless there are at least two new TH weapons in the game you're still going to be offhanding the Thief's Knife at level 99.
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I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#121 Sep 06 2010 at 3:42 AM Rating: Good
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2 Stances for SATA

Stance 1 useful for TP burns, big events etc:

Trick Attack removes the same amount of enmity (from the target player) it would add based on damage.

Sneak Attack works from anywhere but right in front of the Mobs frontal cone of vision.


Stance 2, Useful for Tanked HNMS, etc:

Sneak Attack, Trick Attaack and Hide timers are reduced

Trick Attack Transfers enmity.

Sneak Attack only works from directly behind but gereates reduced enmity.

Hide removes you from the hate list, regardless of mob detection.


Edited, Sep 6th 2010 8:50am by ThiefKiller
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#122 Sep 06 2010 at 2:56 PM Rating: Excellent
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Although it's not a traditional Thief trait, some sort of Doublehand might help with the HNM situation. It worked so well with MNKs and Footwork Smiley: dubious.
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#123 Sep 07 2010 at 5:42 PM Rating: Decent
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Lets hope atleast Tom can do anything for you THFs.
#124 Sep 08 2010 at 4:19 AM Rating: Decent
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Fact is, the only reason THF isn't used on HNMs (basically 95% of the important parts of the game) is TP feed.. This is the case with any good linkshell.. The amount of TP given to the mob compared to damage given is just not worth it.. This is really a problem with all 1h weapons.. Maybe there should be a JA like Hasso for 1h weapons that increases Subtle Blow..
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#125 Sep 08 2010 at 10:19 AM Rating: Excellent
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The TP feed issue is terribly overblown. There ARE times that TP feed is an issue and thf suffers more. However the idea that we are turned away from an alli in MOST situations (anything you melee with a full DD party or more) due to PT feed is ludicrous. If you have more than 4+ DDs on it, it will get TP every ~5-6 seconds anyway.

If people gave a shat about TP gain:
*DDs would NEVER be hasted. EVER.
*Any and all multi hit weapons would be banned from melee
*People wouldnt use DDs practically at all in favor of magic/quickdraw/jumps/WS onry strats.

Most of the mobs in this game are not chariots with 1-2 mnk tanks with gear/rolls capping subtle blow spamming penance.

Most mobs are going to fall into 1 extreme or the other. Either you are:
*meleeing along with bajillions of people and Thf TP gain is a drop in the bucket (TP gain irrelivant. Mob has 100+ TP every ~2 sec)
OR
*the TP moves are devastating AOEs so you have ranged damage (no/few melees due to mp sponging more than TP spam)
OR
*you are lowmanning/special case mobs where ALL DDs are limited in their melee (IE Sam or /sam WS onry.

This is not to say that thf gets the shaft in the damage/tp ratio moreso than just about anyone in the game. Its true. But the idea that a Thf meleeing suddenly turns a mob with 4-5 DDs on it into a TP spamming death machine is completely overstated AND that this is the primary reason thf is not a practical HNM job is just not true. If the playerbase believes this, they are simply misguided. Misguided players that perceive the job in as worse than it actually is are not a reason to change actual game mechanics. Broken game mechanics that force a job into a poor position are. Just because players "think" something is OP/UP does not necessitate a change. EG: "OMG SAMZ IZ BORKED!!! When its not nearly as powerful as the hype does not mean sam should get nerfed just because players "think" its broken. Similarly "OMG PUP SUX!" doesnt make it true, nor a reason to buff them out the ass.

As I have said a few times, this just feeds into it. If a job is looked down on because its misunderstood and actually quite good, then the job is fine. If the job is ACTUALLY poor and that is why it is looked down on, it does need to be adjusted. In both cases the playerbase scoffs at it. Player perception is not adequate reasoning in and of itself because it is inherently biased and flawed.
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#126 Sep 08 2010 at 10:58 AM Rating: Default
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Changing PDodge to a perfect counter seems stupid to me... counter with puny daggers... whats the point. I'd rather it generated enmity like invincible or just leave it the hell alone, it has its uses.

Or... make it a Meteor 2hour!!! Hmm, that probably should be added to mijin gakure.

I think thief is fine, kickass on weak stuff, able to solo/lowman tank, bring th, drop some damage and control on big stuff. Also I feel pretty confident the dual wield thing will lvlup just fine... we'll see.

Only thing else I'd say is no more ja please (just native/passive enhancements) because I'd rather be swinging than paused in delay.

#127 Sep 08 2010 at 4:35 PM Rating: Good
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They just added "enhances Despoil" to 2 pieces of AF3. They really do think that Despoil is a useful ability.

That makes me loose all hope.


Edited, Sep 8th 2010 7:36pm by Lobivopis
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I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#128 Sep 08 2010 at 4:37 PM Rating: Good
Thief's Knife
*****
15,049 posts
TheLoanRanger wrote:
Fact is, the only reason THF isn't used on HNMs (basically 95% of the important parts of the game) is TP feed.. This is the case with any good linkshell.. The amount of TP given to the mob compared to damage given is just not worth it.. This is really a problem with all 1h weapons.. Maybe there should be a JA like Hasso for 1h weapons that increases Subtle Blow..


TP feed should be directly proportional to the delay of the weapon you are hitting it with.
____________________________
Final Fantasy XI 12-14-11 Update wrote:
Adjust the resolution of menus.
The main screen resolution for "FINAL FANTASY XI" is dependent on the "Overlay Graphics Resolution" setting.
If the Overlay Graphics Resolution is set higher than the Menu Resolution, menus will be automatically resized.


I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#129 Sep 08 2010 at 11:58 PM Rating: Good
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1,778 posts
Quote:
TP feed should be directly proportional to the delay of the weapon you are hitting it with.


I haven't really played a lot in the last few years. Enough to play catch up in game, but I've not followed all the math despite most of it being largely unchanged.

Anyway!

I thought TP gain for the player was supposed to be mostly proportional to the delay of the weapon you are hitting with and I thought monsters gained your TP gain +2.

If that's correct, it'd mean that faster hitting attacks will tend to give more TP per damage done than slower attacks.

5.5 to 6TP or whatever it is that you make per hit while using parazonium OAThrice in your off hand means at lot of 7.5 to 8TP per hit you give the mob. Those little 2TPs are almost a ~35% increase over what you make as a thf.

Another class swinging and making 12TP per hit, their little 2TPs are a ~17% increase for the mob over what they'd make.

Thinking about it more, StoreTP may not affect the amount the mob gets, and it might have even been 3TP extra for the mob instead of 2 more than what you make.

In any case, mob TP is less proportional on delay than player TP. Your opponent's love your faster attacks for less dmg because they get lots of free +2 or +3 TPs per hit landed.

Edited, Sep 9th 2010 12:04am by Torzak
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Torzak of Carbuncle/Crushridge (I play both toons very casually now)
Elvaan Male/Tauren Male
99RDM/99MNK/99THF/90Druid
#130 Sep 09 2010 at 12:30 AM Rating: Excellent
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63 posts
Quote:
The TP feed issue is terribly overblown.


Fact, and also I propose that "your feeding too much TP to the mob" become "Feeding to much TP to the mob is so 2009."

Fact is were gonna hit 99, whether you like it or not.

Fact is (as of right now) mobs are not being scaled up, and yes im referring to our 'current' endgame mobs we all love and respect out the ass as the pinnacle trophy killing mobs of the current game.

Fact is they WILL be dying a lot faster, heck probably right now at lvl 85 is a damn good time to test it out.

so the idea of feeding a mob too much TP with a THF whacking it is so 2009, because its gonna die so fast at our current level cap of 85 and beyond it's not gonna matter one bit.

Mages have more MP and more tools to restore MP faster (convert, SCH sub, lvl76+ gear, etc.)

Tanks have higher defense, more evasion, and better survivability than they did at 75.

As Banalaty said, its overblown, because people spread sh*t like that around, people, especially those unwilling to accept the changes happening to the game, are going to believe it. So NOW I believe is the time, the PERFECT time, to convince people otherwise, that what i wrote above may not be the answer, but I sure like to think it's a good start to drill the idea into peoples heads like a parasite that wont let go, that feeding... the... mob... too... much... fkkn... TP... is... so... fkkn... two-thousand... and nine...

#131 Sep 09 2010 at 2:57 AM Rating: Good
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1,983 posts
Yeah it is a bit overblown.

Here are some numbers I did awhile back,

Cross-Comparison
Thief/Nin
Equip: Blau/Sirocco, x, Turban, x, Brutal, Suppa, Corazza, Homam Hands, Rajas, x, x, Swift, Homam Legs, Homam Feet
Other Stuff: Capped Triple Merits (5%) ; Native Triple (5%) ; Subtle Blow II (10%); No dragon-set equipment or peiste belt+1 used; No /war, so no native Double-Attack
-Delay/hand(Dual Wield) = 131.2 = 131
-HasteTotal = Gear(18%) + Spell(26%) = 44%
-Delay(w/ Haste) = 131 * (1 - 0.44) = 73.36 = 73
-Multi-Procs = 5*2(Native) + 5*2(Merits) + 5(Brutal) + 2.5*2(Corazza) = 30ExtraHits/100; Multiplier = 1.3
-BaseTP/Hit = 4.5
-Subtle Blow Total = Native(10%) + Gear(5%) = 15%
-Factoid - Just for interest, with 95% accuracy and constant swinging, this would give 286.25 tp to the player in 1 minute (w/ storetp), or, assuming a base TP of 13% after each WS, 3.29 WS's per minute assuming no TP surplus, or rather, TP13->100% in 18.237 seconds.
TpGiven/Minute: (4.5 + 3)*(1 - 0.15) * (3600 / 73)*1.3 = 7.5*0.85 * 49.315*1.3 = 6.3*64.110 = 403.89

Thief/War
-Delay(blau) = 178
-HasteTotal = 44%
-Delay(w/ Haste) = 178 * (1 - 0.44) = 99.68 = 99
-Multi-Procs = 5*2(Native) + 5*2(Merits) + 5(Brutal) + 2.5*2(Corazza) + 10(sub Native) = 40ExtraHits/100; Multiplier = 1.4
-BaseTP/Hit = 4.98 = 4.9
-Subtle Blow Total = (Rajas) 5%
TpGiven/Minute: (4.9 + 3)*(1 - 0.05) * (3600 / 99)*1.4 = 7.9 * 36.364*1.4 = 7.9*50.909 = 382.07

Monk/Nin
Equip: Destroyers, x, Turban, x, Brutal, x, x, x, x, x, Rajas, Black Belt, Haidates, x
Other Stuff: Capped Kick-Attack Merits (5%) ; Native Kick-Attack Trait (10%) ; Subtle Blow IV (20%); No /war, so no native Double-Attack; No AF2 Hands used; No tp given from counter considered
-Base Monk Delay at 75 (Martial Arts VI) = 300, Destroyers Delay = +48;
-Delay/round = 348
-HasteTotal = Gear(22%) + Spell(26%) = 48%
-Delay/swing(w/ Haste) = (348 / 2) * (1 - 0.48 ) = 90.48 = 90
-Multi-Procs = 10(Native) + 5(Merits) + 5(Brutal) = 20ExtraHits/100; Multiplier = 1.2
-BaseTP/Hit = 4.5
-Subtle Blow Total = Native(20%) + Gear(10%) = 30%
TpGiven/Minute: (4.5 + 3)*(1 - 0.3) * (3600 / 90)*1.2 = 7.5*0.75 * 40*1.2 = 5.6*48 = 252.00

Ninja/War
Equip: Senji/Perdu, x, Turban, x, Brutal, Suppa, x, Dusk Gloves, Rajas, x, x, Swift, Haidates, Fuma
Other Stuff: Dual Wield IV (30%); Subtle Blow V (25%); Native /war Double-Attack (10%); Subtle Blow Merits (5%); No AF body used,
-Delay/hand(Dual Wield) = 135.525 = 135
-HasteTotal = Gear(20%) + Spell(26%) = 46%
-Delay(w/ Haste) = 135 * (1 - 0.46) = 72.9 = 72
-Multi-Procs = 10(sub Native) + 5(Brutal) = 15ExtraHits/100; Multiplier = 1.15
-BaseTP/Hit = 4.6
-Subtle Blow Total = Native(25%) + Gear(5%) + Merits(5%)= 35%
TpGiven/Minute: (4.6 + 3)*(1 - 0.35) * (3600 / 72)*1.15 = 7.6*0.7 * 50*1.15 = 5.3*57.5 = 284.05

Samurai/War
Equip = Hagun, PoleStrap, x, Askar/Ace's, x, Brutal, x, x, Dusk Gloves, Rajas, x, x, Swift, Haidates, Fuma
Other Stuff = Native /war Double-Attack (10%); No Zanshin attacks considered; Hasso not considered (we'll pretend seigan full-time)
-Delay = 450
-HasteTotal = Gear(19%) + Spell(26%) = 45%
Delay(w/ Haste) = 247.5 = 247
-Multi-Procs = 10(sub Native) + 5(Brutal) + 2(Strap) = 17ExtraHits/100; Multiplier = 1.17
-Base TP/Hit = 11.5
-Subtle Blow Total = Gear(5%) = 5%
TpGiven/Minute: (11.5 + 3)*(1 - 0.05) * (3600 / 247)*1.17 = 14.5*0.95 * 14.575*1.17 = 13.7*17.053 = 233.62

Thief/Nin (Corazza -> DH, etc)
-Subtle Blow from gear: Rajas + DH = 15
TpGiven/Minute: 7.5*(1 - 0.25) * (3600 / 73)*1.25 = 7.5*0.75 * 49.315*1.25 = 5.6*61.644 = 345.21
-
Thief/Nin (an S.B. Build; D.H. + D.Subligar + PeisteBelt+1) & H.Q. S.B. Set
-HasteTotal = Gear(11%) + Spell(26%) = 37%
-Delay(w/ Haste) = 131 *(1 - 0.37) = 82.53 = 82
-Subtle Blow from gear (NQ set): Rajas + DH + DragonSubligar/Enkidu'sSubligar + PeisteBelt+1 = 30%
-Subtle Blow from gear (HQ set): Rajas + DH+1 + DragonSubligar+1 + PeisteBelt+1 = 33%
TpGiven/Minute(NQ): 7.5*(1 - 0.4) * (3600 / 82)*1.25 = 7.5*0.6 * 43.902*1.25 = 4.5*54.878 = 246.95
TpGiven/Minute(HQ): 7.5*(1 - 0.43) * (3600 / 82)*1.25 = 7.5*0.57 * 43.902*1.25 = 4.2*54.878 = 230.49
*Estimated*50%SB Build: less than 7.5*(1 - 0.5) * (3600 / 82)*1.25 = less than 205.79


When you have a critical amount of people hitting a mob, or rather, the mob has a critical rate of TP gain, it doesn't really matter that one DD feeds more TP or not. But I doubt many people in FFXI have a good feel for what that critical amount is.



Also, with every update, they keep adding better and better subtle blow gear. Like this new neck with 8 accuracy and 8 attack also has 5 subtle blow iirc. Rings with 3 acc, 3 eva, and 7 subtle blow each. Pair these with our other subtle blow options to give us a competitive option in the subtlety department.
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#132 Sep 09 2010 at 3:32 AM Rating: Decent
Thief's Knife
*****
15,049 posts
Satonaka wrote:
Quote:
The TP feed issue is terribly overblown.


Fact, and also I propose that "your feeding too much TP to the mob" become "Feeding to much TP to the mob is so 2009."

Fact is were gonna hit 99, whether you like it or not.

Fact is (as of right now) mobs are not being scaled up, and yes im referring to our 'current' endgame mobs we all love and respect out the ass as the pinnacle trophy killing mobs of the current game.

Fact is they WILL be dying a lot faster, heck probably right now at lvl 85 is a damn good time to test it out.




Fact is nobody is going to be doing old content anymore because the new gear coming out completely outclasses almost everything from the old content.

And I doubt there will be any more expansions for FFXI (unless FFXIV fails horribly and FFXI maintains it's current subscription numbers as a result).

This pretty much means that from now on until they finally unplug the servers a few years from now FFXI endgame is going to mean Abbyssea and VNM and that's it.

Edited, Sep 9th 2010 6:34am by Lobivopis
____________________________
Final Fantasy XI 12-14-11 Update wrote:
Adjust the resolution of menus.
The main screen resolution for "FINAL FANTASY XI" is dependent on the "Overlay Graphics Resolution" setting.
If the Overlay Graphics Resolution is set higher than the Menu Resolution, menus will be automatically resized.


I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
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