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Time for a ChangeFollow

#1 Aug 01 2010 at 5:03 AM Rating: Good
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Continued from the Despoil Thread

It would be nice to create a unified petition for THF that all of us could agree on and send to SE. But it seems people have their own (often very different) specific solutions to the problems that Thief faces. Others don't agree on the problem(s).

As I see it, most of these issues are based on the opportunity for THF to deal damage. I have heard it said many times that THF is not a DD job by design. I disagree. I think it is a DD job based around a party dynamic that is no longer relevant

Many of our skills, abilities and traits are designed specifically for the purpose of DD. Sneak Attack, Trick attack, Triple Attack, Assassin, Critical Attack Bonus, Top tier DD daggers, Top Tier DD Armor, high dagger skill rating, and high damage potential weapon skills. Almost all of our Merits are DD oriented. Especially Category 2

In my opinion there are three areas that Thief needs fixing.

1. A damaging 2 hour ability.
This one has been admitted by SE and is overdue for a fix. It’s one of the fundamental reasons that every other DD job has more damage potential in many situations: In addition to their other bag of DD tricks, they can deal damage with their 2 hour. THF can’t.

I propose they do with us what they did with DRG: Put PD on a shorter timer and give us a damaging 2 hour ability.

That may sound extreme to some. But, Perfect Dodge isn’t that strong. It only lasts 30 seconds and doesn’t dodge ranged attacks or protect you from magic. I can already do what PD does…BETTER with Flee, shadows and a max evasion set.

With a damaging two hour, we can start to level the playing field with the other DD’s

2. The opportunity to deal damage to high defence targets.
I definitely think critical hits are the way to do it. It seems like SE does too. I like where they are going with the Critical Attack Bonus traits. We’ll have to see how they progress with levels. I can only hope we get the highest.

However, we also need a way boost to critical attack RATE. Either through job traits, better critical hit rate gear…something. THF needs to be able to meaningfully increase critical hit rate for it to be something that can compete. And we need to be able to do this without being forced to /war for fencer or sacrificing vital stats like Haste, ACC, ATT etc to do it.

3. The utility of Thief job abilities. This is two parts for me:
Sneak Attack and Trick Attack
THF’s main downfall is that using our fundamental damaging abilities requires an unreasonable level of cooperation that most groups aren't willing to cater to.

Many of today's FFXI events are not THF DD friendly because it is often most effective for the DD’s to burn TP at 100%, kill faster and bounce hate to mitigate damage between them. The mobs are constantly changing directions, making it difficult to land Sneak Attack consistently. In tankless TP burn parties, none of the DD’s WANT to be trick attacked. Maybe if they aren’t paying attention or don;t care you can land them, but a good portion of the DD’s I meet move out of the way when they see me ready trick attack behind them. This problem only gets worse the better your THF is. You're thinking "YEAH!! Check out that sick Trick Attack I just landed!" The other DD's are saying "Whoa! gtfo with that...I pull enough hate as it is. I don't want that on me!"

So, rather than lining up for a SATA line, making sure they don't turn the monster so the THF can land Sneak Attack, NOT jumping out of the way when they see a THF using trick attack behind them, or fulfilling any of the positional requirements that dealing damage as a THF requires, most DD will simply carry on like there was never a THF there. It is just more efficient for them to do so.

And why shouldn't they? Why should they have to sacrifice their own damage and efficiency, or take on the added risk of increased enmity, just so THF can do its DD job? This is quite a hindrance.

Further more, at the time I am typing this, I cannot remember the last time I was asked to come to an event that is actually tanked to use trick attack and help the tank keep hate. I didn’t see a THF trick attacking that RDM in their AV video!!

I propose that SE remove the positional REQUIREMENTS and create positional enhancements via job traits that cannot be subbed.

Sneak Attack: Your next attack will deal critical damage based on the same DEX formula that it is now. Same guaranteed Critical, same everything.

Instead of REQUIRING Sneak Attack to be performed behind a mob to land, performing it behind the mob will enhance it in some way. This enhancement could be: shedding a certain amount of enmity, or decreased enmity for the hit/WS, or even generating increased enmity so we can better use our evasive skills. It could even add a (not random <.<) status ailment . SE could really do a lot of things with this but make it a positional enhancement instead of a requirement.

Trick Attack: Your next attack will deal extra damage based on your AGL. Same guaranteed Critical, same everything. Instead of REQUIRING you to be behind a party member for it to land, it will transfer enmity only if performed behind a party member.

I’ve heard a few people say that removing the positional requirements would be “broken.” I strongly disagree with this. Specifically because it would not allow us to surpass our current potential at all. IF parties still worked like it was 2005 and tanks held hate for everything and no one TP burned anything, we would already be able to do this. The fact is, the game has evolved and THF has not. Our abilities are harder to land than is reasonable and often unwanted for their intended purpose.

With this change THF would put out consistent DD, but keep to the positional nature of the job to make use of the secondary enmity utility SE means us to have.

Thief Job Abilities like Aura Steal, Despoil, Steal, Mug etc.
Admittedly, this area is a sore spot for me. I have always been let down by Thiefesque abilities in FFXI.

I find that all of them have unreasonably long recast timers and unnecessarily low successes rates. I find that despoil and mug aren’t really worth using. I think that having aura steal attached to (item) steal is absurd, let alone only being usable every 5 minutes (with a chance to miss completely if the target has an item).

I have always wanted them to create steal categories akin to waltzes and sambas, have those groupings share recast timers and lower them to a max of 1 minute across the board (with some being less).

I mean, it is right there …make use of steal abilities as an offensive weapon. Steal TP, steal ACC, Steal Attack, Steal DEX, Steal Evasion, Steals that don’t take something but give a status ailment (Think Despoil…only useful) etc. There is no reason Thief shouldn’t utilize steal in battle. Especially since SE has made it very clear that our money making abilities are too dangerous to be made worth while.

Have three categories:

Money Makers
Steal, Mug, Item steal, Armor steal, Weapon steal (yeah I can dream)

Battle Related Steals
Despoil(not a random debuff), Steal Evasion, Steal ACC, Steal Attack, Steal DEX, etc.

Enmity Steals
Accomplice, Collaborator, An ability that redirects the enmity you stole to someone.

With this change, THF could supplement its DD with offensive steals while being able to retain and utilise its function as a THIEF.
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I apologise this is so long. It seems I had a lot to say lol. This is not a "Hey guys lets send a petition in asking for all these things." Its more of a "Lets start a conversation about the possibility of agreeing on some of them" Maybe it isnt possible? But I'd like to try.

Edited, Aug 3rd 2010 7:51am by ThiefKiller
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#2 Aug 01 2010 at 11:16 AM Rating: Good
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Well said, signed.

(Inc poor steal abilities and none of the useful PD, SA, TA, DD-steal, etc things mentioned)
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#3 Aug 01 2010 at 12:09 PM Rating: Good
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I'm on board as well.

To fix the damage thing, I've been toying around with the idea of adding an attack boost to the amount of enmity that we have, either gradually through normal enmity gain, or have a direct boost from using accomplice or collaborator. If the latter, could do something like 100 attack that lasts 2.5 min for accomplice and 50 attack that lasts 30 seconds for collaborator.

The sneak attack idea is actually pretty good. Kinda sounds like what they did with RNG (sweetspot) so won't be too overpowered.
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#4 Aug 01 2010 at 1:34 PM Rating: Excellent
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I'd say for a DD's "damage" 2 hour, a state equivalent to Berserk with 100% accuracy would serve us well. With 100% accuracy guaranteed even for a short duration (I'd say 60 seconds is reasonable), we could adjust our gear for a DD zerg, pop a pure +att food, and put out a lot more damage with that alone.
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#5 Aug 01 2010 at 3:07 PM Rating: Good
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Kalisa wrote:
The sneak attack idea is actually pretty good. Kinda sounds like what they did with RNG (sweetspot) so won't be too overpowered.

The proper analogy to what they did with RNG would be to slightly lower the damage of SA when you are standing behind the mob, and to significantly lower the damage of SA (but still better than a melee attack) if you were standing anywhere else. Not exactly much of an upgrade

Personally, the best and easiest solution to SA/TA problems is: you maintain SA/TA status until you land a qualifying hit (like Feint). For example, you're behind the mob and you pop SA, but it turns right before you swing. That swing becomes a normal melee hit and SA stays up, so you can rotate around to the back of the mob (again) and get another shot. Same applies for TA if your trick buddy moves out of alignment. THF is one of the fastest attacking jobs in the game, so we shouldn't have to spend too much time spinning around.

The great thing about this solution is that it requires no strange or complex new changes that have to be balanced for SJ play; /THF can also have this upgrade with very little concern about outshining THF main.

Edited, Aug 1st 2010 2:08pm by redvenomweb
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#6 Aug 01 2010 at 5:05 PM Rating: Good
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SA paired with Overwhelm says Hi.... Again.
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#7 Aug 01 2010 at 6:37 PM Rating: Good
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Signed. Heavily agreed that PD should just be a regular ability. It's too late for AF/relics to enhance it, but there's room for it on new lv 99 merits and new gear along the way possibly.

Edited, Aug 1st 2010 7:37pm by Jevilwolf
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#8 Aug 01 2010 at 6:40 PM Rating: Good
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The only real issue I Have with the "Just Make SATA not wear off if you miss" solution, is that it still makes us reliant on (often reluctant) DD's to land trick attack on. By this point in our THF careers..I think we should have the choice. Whether we just need to deal damage, or whether we need to plant hate on someone else. The fact is, that 90% of the players we melee with DON'T WANT hate planted on them. I think this is a major issue when people consider whether or not to invite THF as a DD.
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#9 Aug 01 2010 at 9:24 PM Rating: Decent
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ElvaanTHF wrote:
SA paired with Overwhelm says Hi.... Again.

How is this relevant?

If they are in front of the mob for Overwhelm, SA will not be applied to the WS.
If they are in back of the mob for SA, Overwhelm will not be applied to the WS.

Letting SA stay on until it's actually used does not affect this dynamic at all.
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#10 Aug 01 2010 at 9:26 PM Rating: Good
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ThiefKiller wrote:
The only real issue I Have with the "Just Make SATA not wear off if you miss" solution, is that it still makes us reliant on (often reluctant) DD's to land trick attack on. By this point in our THF careers..I think we should have the choice. Whether we just need to deal damage, or whether we need to plant hate on someone else. The fact is, that 90% of the players we melee with DON'T WANT hate planted on them. I think this is a major issue when people consider whether or not to invite THF as a DD.

Easily resolved: use Collaborator on someone after you TA them. Solo TA followed by -25% enmity will almost certainly leave them lower on the hate list than where they were before you TAed them.

Edited, Aug 1st 2010 8:27pm by redvenomweb
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#11 Aug 02 2010 at 12:40 AM Rating: Good
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redvenomweb wrote:
Easily resolved: use Collaborator on someone after you TA them. Solo TA followed by -25% enmity will almost certainly leave them lower on the hate list than where they were before you TAed them.


I don't know if Collaborator easily resolves this. Sure you know you can steal that enmity from them...but what if you needed to use Accomplice? No Trick Attack for 5 minutes? Even if you spent time explaning how your enmity abilities work to other DD's....and were able to make them fully understand how they work...I seriously doubt it will stop people from dodging Trick Attack.

I just met a SAM yesterday (really great gear/had been playing since NA release etc) that still thought Trick Attack transferred all my enmity to him.

Maybe its just me. But I really feel that if THF is ever going to truly rise to the occasion and be percieved as a legit DD, it NEEDS to stop depending on other people to do it.
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#12 Aug 02 2010 at 12:50 AM Rating: Default
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ThiefKiller wrote:


3. The utility of Thief job abilities. This is two parts for me:
Sneak Attack and Trick Attack
THF’s main downfall is that using our fundamental damaging abilities requires an unreasonable level of cooperation that most groups aren't willing to cater to.



Sneak Attack should be changed from the "all or nothing" way it works now to a "falloff" based DEX bonus where the further away from behind the mob you are the lower the DEX bonus is. Also it should always force a crit on the next hit no matter where you're standing. The SATA timers should also be cut in half.

An alternative might be to put a mini SA that just forces a crit regardless of position on the next hit on the same timer as SA. So SA still has a cooloff of 60 seconds while the new JA would have a cooloff of 20 seconds.
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I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#13 Aug 02 2010 at 7:05 AM Rating: Good
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I just came back to the game, ohh 2 months ago(after not logging on for a year and a half)? I just bought wings of the godess maybe three weeks ago and I just bought abyssea yesterday.

I was just ranting to an old friend that THF's SA/TA are an irrelevant set of abilities in a lot of situations these days. I was trying for the DEX/Acc's last trial some yesterday, and I noticed most of the thieves in the group rarely bothered trying to SA, and none used TA, including myself. I'm almost positive I was the only English native tongue in the 2 group alliance full of pretty much thieves and dancers. So even among the JP from what little I've seen, TA is not often used.

I was helping this same friend I had ranted to last night to kill some imps, and I found about the most use I've had for TA since I've been back. I TA WS'd the friend, who played rdm/dnc in the group, so he could wake up the other guy. And he couldn't move to tell me no!

Anyway, signed!
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#14 Aug 02 2010 at 8:03 AM Rating: Excellent
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The "simplest" way to fix SA would be just change it back to how it used to be. Instead of behind the mobs, just NOT in front. If it was outside that frontal cone of mob vision SA would land. Side, back, anything BUT the front. This also removes the SA+Overwhelm issue as they become mutually exclusive.

I would just propose another trait like assassin buffed up TA for SA at say, lv75 thf (level doesnt matter long as its not subbable) that reverts SA effective aread to anything but frontal cone like the old days. This would let us pull off the oldschool fuidama or whatever it was spelled in which you can pull off a full SATA on the tank by moving just out of vision of the mob for SA, but still close enough to the tank to land TA.

This would upgrade thf by allowing it to plant hate BETTER than /thf (IE can full sata the main tank), while also allowing us to land SA much more often on spinning mobs. This also means Thf can perform their JAs on things with flail type moves by using SAWS etc on the side of a mob. As said above, adjusting the requirements for SA/TA wont change Thf DD potential, just actually let us meet that potential much more realistically.

This would really allow thf to do their job much more often without many of the issues that prevent it right now.
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I also really like the PD idea like drg. Remove PD as 2hour, stick it on a 20:00 timer and make it only last 15 sec. Give us a "real" 2hour that involves crits and hate manipulation. Much like drg 2hour steals wyvern stats+tp, gives 25% magic haste and gives each jump an additional effect and makes jumps not miss(jump=angon, high jump=remove mob TP, super=erases party member hate behind you) and also resets jump timers, could do something similar for thf.

For example maybe: (hypothetical buffs. Could be almost anythign)
*resets SA+TA+Steal+mug timers
*Enhanced eva (instead of stealing wyvern stats) by a significant amount or maybe even keep the PD effect
*SA= 2-3x dex boost (big damage buff), removes position reqs and guarantees crits for all hits while SA icon up(offhand+WS like mini mighty strikes for SAWS)
*TA= 2-3x agi boost (big damage buff) and transfers 2-3x enmity.
*Collaborator steals 50% hate instead of 25%
*Accomplic steals 100% hate instead of 50%
*Mug=additional stun effect (just like weapon bash or something)
*Steal= Absorb something. Maybe like feint, but absorbs all that eva. (could replace "enhanced eva" from earlier in list maybe)
*Hide=Works on anything (

Similar to spirit surge, it becomes a very very versatile 2hour. It has the option to pump out some nice spike damage, do some serious hate manipulation, be a temp last ditch tank (steal+absorb feint level eva paired with SAACWS), gives a secondary feint ability to "extend" normal feint but using it when feint wears off (much like Drg can double up using angon then 2hour+jump after it wears off to do the effect over again). Could also instead do some serious hate manipulation with SATAWS HUGE damage+enmity and steal most or all of someones hate. Stun, just lots of tools, but cant use all of them. Perhaps even just boost "next SA or TA used" so you ahve to choose between a big damage SA or a huge enmity+damage TA, but not get both (could still stack, but only 1st one used would get the buff, ie SA>TA>WS=dex boost and full crit. TA>SA>WS=craploads of enmity. Or could only use one. Eh nvm SA>TA would already give MONSTEROUS hate if paired with a critted WS.)

Could also use it "better" than PD for sacing etc by making hide work on anything, and just using our "mini" PD together.

Anyway, obviously any/all the details can be tweaked in effect or potency, but if SE gave me developer power for a day, this is the line of thinking I would go down. Just has OPTIONS. Thats what I like about the drg 2hour, it can be used for a LOT of different things in varying capacities because it has a lot of little-ish buffs/abilities you can combine in interesting ways (just make it JA haste instead of magic haste >_<).

Edit: Added hide works on anything and would remove the need for SA positional reqs to be temp removed. Simpler solution.

Edited, Aug 2nd 2010 11:05am by Banalaty
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#15 Aug 02 2010 at 9:29 AM Rating: Decent
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ThiefKiller wrote:
I don't know if Collaborator easily resolves this. Sure you know you can steal that enmity from them...but what if you needed to use Accomplice?

You aren't using Accomplice in any situation where you are also tricking random DDs.

Quote:
Even if you spent time explaning how your enmity abilities work to other DD's....and were able to make them fully understand how they work...I seriously doubt it will stop people from dodging Trick Attack.

I just met a SAM yesterday (really great gear/had been playing since NA release etc) that still thought Trick Attack transferred all my enmity to him.

I don't think the game is going to be designed around dealing with party members who are actively trying to thwart you.
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#16 Aug 02 2010 at 10:16 AM Rating: Good
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I don't feel comfortable using Trick Attack on anyone because it feels like I'm forcing them to tank when they're not wanting to. I don't make anyone to do anything they don't want to, especially if I can do it myself.
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#17 Aug 02 2010 at 11:44 AM Rating: Decent
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NarelCaitsith wrote:
I don't feel comfortable using Trick Attack on anyone because it feels like I'm forcing them to tank when they're not wanting to. I don't make anyone to do anything they don't want to, especially if I can do it myself.

...which is why you use Collaborator on them after TAing them.
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#18 Aug 02 2010 at 1:26 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Sneak Attack should be changed from the "all or nothing" way it works now to a "falloff" based DEX bonus where the further away from behind the mob you are the lower the DEX bonus is. Also it should always force a crit on the next hit no matter where you're standing.


Seconded. Regular, forced crit while in front scaling up to the current SA from behind.

I'd also like to see double/triple attack procs fixed, so triple is checked first. It's not a big difference in our DoT, but it's always irked me.
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#19 Aug 02 2010 at 2:23 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
Sneak Attack should be changed from the "all or nothing" way it works now to a "falloff" based DEX bonus where the further away from behind the mob you are the lower the DEX bonus is. Also it should always force a crit on the next hit no matter where you're standing.


At this stage in the game i still say, think bigger. Just reverse SA back to the original version in the game at release. SA works anywhere at full power so long as its not in the mobs frontal vision cone. Add this as an upgraded SA trait just like assassin upgraded TA at lv 60. Just make it lv 75 or whatever. Removes the SA+overwhelm issue as they are mutually exclusive, and doesnt require any fancy new formula for scaling the damage based on your angle from mobs face etc. Simple is better and, in this case, more effective too. Even in big events like einherjar, we wont have much problem landing SA if you have a 70% arc around the mob to land it in.

Also opens up the oldschool SATA on the tank facing the mob with careful positioning making thf far superior to DD/thf for hate planting. Seems an elegant solution the more I think about it. Fixes a lot of issues with a VERY simple change.
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#20 Aug 02 2010 at 4:51 PM Rating: Decent
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I like the ideas being thrown around here, my 2 cents;
I've thought for a while THF could use a 'Stance' something akin to RNG's Velocity Shot, NIN's yonin/innin etc...
"Dagger Mastery" 5min JA 2hr duration
-lowers ranged att power and speed
-melee crit rate up
-chunk of subtle blow
-maybe some JA haste if ya wanna be nice

something like that, one of the bigger problems i find is even if your a kickass THF and doing great dammage to a mob, it's very 'dirty' giving the mob far more TP than say a WAR in the same ammount of damage to a monster. I very much like Critical hits as a way to help this, i think it fits very well into the THF persona (we really should be critical hit masters). And in the same Vein not having native subtle blow has always pained me, it's really an underrated abality, tho not typically worth gearing for.
#21 Aug 02 2010 at 8:25 PM Rating: Good
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I think I posted something very similar to this thread about 6 years ago.

I agree these changes would be for the better and we can keep dreaming. Maybe SE will give THF a SA that is multidirectional for our 99 job ability? Nah! Why would they give a lvl 99 THF something a lvl 15 THF had 7 years ago?
#22 Aug 03 2010 at 1:47 AM Rating: Good
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Banalaty wrote:
Quote:
Sneak Attack should be changed from the "all or nothing" way it works now to a "falloff" based DEX bonus where the further away from behind the mob you are the lower the DEX bonus is. Also it should always force a crit on the next hit no matter where you're standing.


At this stage in the game i still say, think bigger. Just reverse SA back to the original version in the game at release. SA works anywhere at full power so long as its not in the mobs frontal vision cone. Add this as an upgraded SA trait just like assassin upgraded TA at lv 60. Just make it lv 75 or whatever. Removes the SA+overwhelm issue as they are mutually exclusive, and doesnt require any fancy new formula for scaling the damage based on your angle from mobs face etc. Simple is better and, in this case, more effective too. Even in big events like einherjar, we wont have much problem landing SA if you have a 70% arc around the mob to land it in.


It wouldn't fix the problem that a well equipped hasted THF gets TP way faster than he can SATA. They need too either lower the SA timer or add a new JA that forces a crit on the next hit (with no DEX bonus) that can be used more often than SA.

Also, hate control is simply not relevant in today's FFXI. Nobody, NOBODY says "we need a THF to plant hate" when they are setting up an event.

Edited, Aug 3rd 2010 4:53am by Lobivopis
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Final Fantasy XI 12-14-11 Update wrote:
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The main screen resolution for "FINAL FANTASY XI" is dependent on the "Overlay Graphics Resolution" setting.
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I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#23 Aug 03 2010 at 2:01 AM Rating: Decent
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GreyBis wrote:
I like the ideas being thrown around here, my 2 cents;
I've thought for a while THF could use a 'Stance' something akin to RNG's Velocity Shot, NIN's yonin/innin etc...
"Dagger Mastery" 5min JA 2hr duration
-lowers ranged att power and speed
-melee crit rate up
-chunk of subtle blow
-maybe some JA haste if ya wanna be nice


May as well lower magic Attack and Accuracy while you are at it. Lowering ranged Attack and Speed would have zero negative effect on THF.

1H weapon delay -10% (also stacks with -delay from DW)
Accuracy+10%
Attack+15%
Evasion -30%
Defense -30%



Edited, Aug 3rd 2010 5:05am by Lobivopis
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I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#24 Aug 03 2010 at 2:21 AM Rating: Good
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Well it seems that at the most of us agree that Sneak Attack needs fixing...just not so much on the specific fix. Most of the ideas in this thread have been based around easing up on the positional requirements.

And I also see a few in agreement that Trick Attack is rarely used as anything other than a DD tool for THFs. DD's dont want it on them, tanks don't need it, groups putting together events do not ask for it.....ever.

RVW: I hear what you are saying but Collaborator is not a fix for Trick Attack Imo. Tying up collaborator just so you can use trick attack consistantly puts you in a bad spot if you actually NEED to use it to save a mage or take over tanking in a pinch. Collaborator also cannot steal hate from alliance members so it limits your potential Trick Attack partners considerably in alliance events (especially now that abyssea is all the rage). This can also potentially hider you DD output as well. Odds are good that if you are already doing your best to put out DD and so is the DD you just Trick Attacked, stealing 25% of their enmity is going to have you tanking for a bit, preventing you from using that Sneak Attack that is ready to go.

This is also not addressing the issue of people dodging you intentionally, or just moving around constantly for no apparent reason other than they don't like the position they engaged in. lol I see this A LOT in abyssea and other alliance events.

The basis of my arguement for removing positional requirements from Sneak Attack and Trick Attack is essentially this: THF has a harder time competing because we have to do our DD on everyone elses terms. Parties are not made like they were when THF was designed. THF is the only DD job I can think of whose core DD job abilities are very nearly unusuable when soloing or tanking.

It is unreasonable in today's FFXI to fulfill all these requirements just to DD almost as good as other DD jobs can. If we are going to break out of that we need to be able to do it on our own terms...no matter which way the mob decides to spin.

This is why I propose: don't let the position dictate the damage, let the position dictate secondary utility(enmity).

Edited, Aug 3rd 2010 5:20pm by ThiefKiller
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#25 Aug 03 2010 at 12:56 PM Rating: Good
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Some very good ideas everyone. I can tell a lot of you are putting real thought into this. My thoughts on what I've read so far.

1. Agree: Reduce or remove Thfs need for others to do damage. Let us do the damage SE wanted us to be able to do, but since others won't play along, with out them. Take SA back to the old days will increase our likelyhood of landing SA in party or alliance. Change TA so that people want a thf in the party because of it. Emnity is no longer the answer based on current game play.
2. Agree: Ability to deal better damage to high Def targets.
3. Agree: Make PD as a standard JA w/ some damage enhancing two hour to replace it.
4. Agree: Steal/Dispoil/Aura Steal need fixed. The OP had some cool thoughts on this.

5. Disagree: collaborator is not the fix for TA. The timers do not match for starters and I also agree it takes away the ability to help party members when it is really needed. Imagine the dead blm's... have pity on them! j/k
6. Disagree: Lowering SA/TA timers. I don't think we should be asking to overpower or out DD others. If these were lowered too much, if beyond what can be accomplished with merits already, I'm afraid we would be to powerful and suffer the evil nerf hammer.


If SE did some adjustments to at least #1 and #2 I'd be ok with it. While I do want some JA that are worth while #3 and #4 are less important than our ability to DD which is what gets us invites for content/parties.


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#26 Aug 03 2010 at 3:02 PM Rating: Good
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ya know, the more I think about it, I really don't like the idea of changing the positional aspect of SA/TA because it kinda takes away the fun and challenge of THF (IMO anyway). However I am agreeing with the lowering of the timers. Being able to always have SATA up when you WS will in itself give us a major damage boost. 30 second timers would be perfect. Not to say this would fix all our dmg problems though...
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#27 Aug 03 2010 at 7:42 PM Rating: Excellent
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An idea for 2 hour: Assassinate. You use it and it will enhance either your next SA or TA. The effect is different depending on which one you use next.

Sneak Attack
-Removes need to attack from behind
-Greatly increases the damage (let's say anywhere from triple to quintuple. Not sure what would be reasonable)
-Stuns the monster for a good 5~10 seconds

Trick Attack
-Doubles damage of your next TA (more modest than SA)
-Caps hate for the person you TA behind and locks it at max for 20~30 seconds.
-Allows your next Collaborator/Accomplice to absorb 99% of the target's enmity (just in case you accidentally f*ck up and plant hate on the wrong person).

EDIT: Just to clarify, I came up with these intending for all of these effects to still stack with a WS. So you'd do Assassinate + Assassin's Charge + Sneak Attack + Mandalic Stab or something and do like 6k damage.

Edited, Aug 3rd 2010 9:47pm by Seitekifu
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#28 Aug 03 2010 at 8:13 PM Rating: Good
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Seitekifu wrote:
An idea for 2 hour: Assassinate. You use it and it will enhance either your next SA or TA. The effect is different depending on which one you use next.

Sneak Attack
-Removes need to attack from behind
-Greatly increases the damage (let's say anywhere from triple to quintuple. Not sure what would be reasonable)
-Stuns the monster for a good 5~10 seconds

Trick Attack
-Doubles damage of your next TA (more modest than SA)
-Caps hate for the person you TA behind and locks it at max for 20~30 seconds.
-Allows your next Collaborator/Accomplice to absorb 99% of the target's enmity (just in case you accidentally f*ck up and plant hate on the wrong person).



I thought we were talking about realistic solutions here? Because there is no way in **** any of that will ever happen. May as well just ask SE for eye lasers while you are at it.

Edited, Aug 3rd 2010 11:14pm by Lobivopis
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Final Fantasy XI 12-14-11 Update wrote:
Adjust the resolution of menus.
The main screen resolution for "FINAL FANTASY XI" is dependent on the "Overlay Graphics Resolution" setting.
If the Overlay Graphics Resolution is set higher than the Menu Resolution, menus will be automatically resized.


I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#29 Aug 03 2010 at 11:39 PM Rating: Excellent
There are a number of changes that SE could implement that would help greatly. However, I think the positional damage problem is the worst. You can't train players to position themselves. Most do not want to do it.

1. Positional Damage Sucks

The salvage group I run with has people constantly spinning around, often positioning themselves to be ready for the next enemy. I spend so much time running around that it's easy to lose focus of everything else that's going on. I look at other DD's and their weapon skills do as much as our stacked weapon skills do. The thing that narrows that gap is that we can also use SA and TA at other times... but we can't if people won't stand still, and really they're not going to. The whole "get in position and use SA and TA" in exp parties was fun, but that's not how the rest of the game works for events. The mechanics for parties changes endgame, therefore the mechanics for this type of damage should change as well. In exp parties, people put up with it because it's very easy to see the results, but not so easy to see in many endgame events.

2. No useful damage-dealing JA's apart from Subjob

So yeah, revert to the way things were originally with Sneak Attack.. that might be a good idea, or maybe just do something altogether to make it useful. Think about soloing on THF for a moment. You engage a mob, you need to dish out some more damage but you only have 67 TP. Hmm, maybe use a job ability? Oh wait, you can't! Your best bet is to hit the mob with a sleep bolt and then get behind it or do something crazy like summon a fellow and trick on them. Not very effective by any means and makes it an incredibly boring job (except for the danger of death part) to solo on.

3. TP Feeding monster

Dual-wielding, triple attack, double attack procs from gear, etc. Often I've been in a situation where others didn't want me to melee in fear of feeding a tougher boss too much TP. SE gave Subtle Blow to NIN and MNK and that made perfect sense. Perhaps they were going to go with an "eastern" themed trait which I'm also fine with... but then you gave the traits to DNC and that doesn't fit at all. It should be expected at this point that THF is going to be dual-wielding. Fine, you don't have to give us the Dual-Wield trait, but at least give us Suble Blow III or IV. It's not that much to ask.

4. Need a new Weapon Skill to Compete

Comparing my THF to NINs I know who put in a lot less effort... their Jins can do quite a bit in comparison to my STACKED weapon skills. Same goes for MNK. Heck, even my DNC with Saber Dance puts up some really nice Dancing Edges to compete. Give THF a really nice Weapon Skill in one of the upcoming patches. You can even give it to Dancers too, I won't complain too much about that. Give us something good though so when we do stack our weapon skills, it makes the numbers really jump out on the screen. Our auto-attacks yield such low damage in many encounters. The least we could ask for are some nice big spikes of damage.


If SE implements ALL of these changes, it still would only put THF up to par with some other DD's in my opinion, but that would be a significant upgrade. People should not have to view THF as a burden to a group.

Edited, Aug 4th 2010 1:42am by KarellenOfAsura
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#30 Aug 04 2010 at 9:40 AM Rating: Excellent
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492 posts
Lobivopis wrote:
Seitekifu wrote:
An idea for 2 hour: Assassinate. You use it and it will enhance either your next SA or TA. The effect is different depending on which one you use next.

Sneak Attack
-Removes need to attack from behind
-Greatly increases the damage (let's say anywhere from triple to quintuple. Not sure what would be reasonable)
-Stuns the monster for a good 5~10 seconds

Trick Attack
-Doubles damage of your next TA (more modest than SA)
-Caps hate for the person you TA behind and locks it at max for 20~30 seconds.
-Allows your next Collaborator/Accomplice to absorb 99% of the target's enmity (just in case you accidentally f*ck up and plant hate on the wrong person).



I thought we were talking about realistic solutions here? Because there is no way in **** any of that will ever happen. May as well just ask SE for eye lasers while you are at it.

Edited, Aug 3rd 2010 11:14pm by Lobivopis


Well to be fair it seems like asking for anything DD wise for THF is unrealistic with SE's current/past patterns.

On another note; I do kind of like everyone's removing of positional requirements for SATA, I love the need to not be brainless on THF but the fact someone else doesn't know you can collaborator after TA and gimping your potential is... frustrating. I'm beginning to think with current hate caps that if TA actually *removed* enmity equal to the damage we deal, that we'd be better off.

This is probably just me and a few others, do don't take this terribly serious but... Remove the THF knife from the game or boost it to where it's a good dagger. I have had this fear lately that it would never be upgraded but we all know we'll still be yelled at mercilessly to use it even at 99. :\
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#31 Aug 04 2010 at 9:43 AM Rating: Decent
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I have been trying not to reply to this thread, but I just can't do it anymore.

I consistently parse in the top 5 in all of the LS events that I parse. This includes zergs, einherjar, limbus, xp, and other events. Our DD potential is not limited by our job, more often than not, our DD potential is limited because we can't convince our LS that we need the same buffs. Sure, you wont parse comparable to the war that gets a brd and a cor and a dnc when you just have a brd. But given the same buffs, you should be able to be within spitting distance of a good DD on a parse.

I parsed 5th overall and 2nd on the boss of our last Einherjar Chamber (Non piercing weak boss). I even spent half the boss bound on the side so I couldn't even SA or TA. The person who beat me on the parse beat me by about 7%, but he had a cor and a dnc in his pt and I just had the brd 2hr buffs. I outparsed mnks, sams, and wars in this one parse. Again, these aren't slacker DDs, they were DDs that know what they are doing. I don't even have fully upgraded Kilas yet.

THF doesn't need anything to compete with other jobs in terms of DD. Sure, there are situations where THF DD is lackluster compared to other DDs, but really, you want to have full 100% utility, 100% of the time?

Yes our 2-hr sucks. There is almost no practical use for it. If you need it, you are probably just prolonging a wipe, not avoiding it. So I endorse a change there, but to say we need a damaging 2hr to compete with other jobs is not true.

Edit:
ElvaanTHF wrote:
Remove the THF knife from the game or boost it to where it's a good dagger.


Yeah, I am liking the drop rate on everything in Abyssea enough that I have stopped even macroing my TK in. I do think though that a Magican Trial to make it a good DoT or WS weapon would be good though, I definately don't want to be macroing in a D28 weapon @99.

Edited, Aug 4th 2010 10:47am by Meldi
#32 Aug 04 2010 at 11:28 AM Rating: Decent
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There's a few practical uses for it still. Unfortunately, they all involve Dynamis sac pulls.
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#33 Aug 04 2010 at 11:29 AM Rating: Good
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Meldi wrote:
I have been trying not to reply to this thread, but I just can't do it anymore.

I consistently parse in the top 5 in all of the LS events that I parse. This includes zergs, einherjar, limbus, xp, and other events. Our DD potential is not limited by our job, more often than not, our DD potential is limited because we can't convince our LS that we need the same buffs. Sure, you wont parse comparable to the war that gets a brd and a cor and a dnc when you just have a brd. But given the same buffs, you should be able to be within spitting distance of a good DD on a parse.

I parsed 5th overall and 2nd on the boss of our last Einherjar Chamber (Non piercing weak boss). I even spent half the boss bound on the side so I couldn't even SA or TA. The person who beat me on the parse beat me by about 7%, but he had a cor and a dnc in his pt and I just had the brd 2hr buffs. I outparsed mnks, sams, and wars in this one parse. Again, these aren't slacker DDs, they were DDs that know what they are doing. I don't even have fully upgraded Kilas yet.

THF doesn't need anything to compete with other jobs in terms of DD. Sure, there are situations where THF DD is lackluster compared to other DDs, but really, you want to have full 100% utility, 100% of the time?

Yes our 2-hr sucks. There is almost no practical use for it. If you need it, you are probably just prolonging a wipe, not avoiding it. So I endorse a change there, but to say we need a damaging 2hr to compete with other jobs is not true.

Edit:
ElvaanTHF wrote:
Remove the THF knife from the game or boost it to where it's a good dagger.


Yeah, I am liking the drop rate on everything in Abyssea enough that I have stopped even macroing my TK in. I do think though that a Magican Trial to make it a good DoT or WS weapon would be good though, I definately don't want to be macroing in a D28 weapon @99.

Edited, Aug 4th 2010 10:47am by Meldi


I'll say I'm skeptical of this is all, but of course I can't say you're wrong as: A.) You mentioned events with pretty standard mobs, not high DEF mobs. And B.) Even though I've outparsed a SAM, WAR or DRK in my LS I'm always relegated to "The short bus" party with 0 buffers so my experience of actually being allowed to DD (No sh*tty TH gear, no pulling) with equal buffs is rather... Limited.

EDIT:

catwho wrote:
There's a few practical uses for it still. Unfortunately, they all involve Dynamis sac pulls.


I can't think of one instance in dynamis I couldn't have the same (Or better most of the time) effect using flee and maybe a pair of powder boots on the side. I really can only say honestly sac/log out on the SSR gears on the turtle floor is it, providing we don't get a fanatic's.. Yay for items performing miles better than our 2 hour!


Edited, Aug 4th 2010 2:04pm by ElvaanTHF
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#34 Aug 04 2010 at 11:48 AM Rating: Decent
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ElvaanTHF wrote:


I'll say I'm skeptical of this is all, but of course I can't say you're wrong as: A.) You mentioned events with pretty standard mobs, not high DEF mobs. And B.) Even though I've outparsed a SAM, WAR or DRK in my LS I'm always relegated to "The short bus" party with 0 buffers so my experience of actually being allowed to DD (No sh*tty TH gear, no pulling) with equal buffs is rather... Limited.



There isn't much with high defense right now @ 80. I was hitting Odin for > base damage recently so even on him I had around 1 cRatio with meat only @ 80. Your damage is always going to suck on mobs like Genbu.

My only issue is often people come in and say "Wahhhhh, thf doesn't do the damage that [insert whatever DD here] does," when its more the fact that they haven't been able to convince their LS that their job is potent too given buffs. I sure as **** bet you that Archain, and Melphina and others never have to justify their positions in their alliances. Because they have shown their LSs what a thief can do. You said it yourself. You are always relegated to the "Short Bus" party with 0 buffs. Of course you aren't going to be able to hang with the WAR with 2x haste, 2x minuet, Chaos/(Fighter's,Samurai,etc.) Rolls, and Haste Samba. You have to convince your LS that it is worth it to give you buffs, massive boosts to the job from SE will not dispel the image of thieves that is currently prevalent and thus not fix the perceived problem that you are trying to address.

P.S. I will post a pic of the parse so you know that I am not talking out of my ****. Will just have to be tonight.
#35 Aug 04 2010 at 12:01 PM Rating: Excellent
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492 posts
Meldi wrote:
ElvaanTHF wrote:


I'll say I'm skeptical of this is all, but of course I can't say you're wrong as: A.) You mentioned events with pretty standard mobs, not high DEF mobs. And B.) Even though I've outparsed a SAM, WAR or DRK in my LS I'm always relegated to "The short bus" party with 0 buffers so my experience of actually being allowed to DD (No sh*tty TH gear, no pulling) with equal buffs is rather... Limited.



There isn't much with high defense right now @ 80. I was hitting Odin for > base damage recently so even on him I had around 1 cRatio with meat only @ 80. Your damage is always going to suck on mobs like Genbu.

My only issue is often people come in and say "Wahhhhh, thf doesn't do the damage that [insert whatever DD here] does," when its more the fact that they haven't been able to convince their LS that their job is potent too given buffs. I sure as **** bet you that Archain, and Melphina and others never have to justify their positions in their alliances. Because they have shown their LSs what a thief can do. You said it yourself. You are always relegated to the "Short Bus" party with 0 buffs. Of course you aren't going to be able to hang with the WAR with 2x haste, 2x minuet, Chaos/(Fighter's,Samurai,etc.) Rolls, and Haste Samba. You have to convince your LS that it is worth it to give you buffs, massive boosts to the job from SE will not dispel the image of thieves that is currently prevalent and thus not fix the perceived problem that you are trying to address.

P.S. I will post a pic of the parse so you know that I am not talking out of my ****. Will just have to be tonight.


Oh no, I'm not saying your lying, I'm just a skeptical guy. As I've said, the only DD issue THF really has is on targets with high DEF for the most part. My LS just has this retarded setup thing going. ****, half the DD in the "Main DD" party have told the **** making the party I'd outDD some of the people they're giving buffs, but hey, stupid people are stupid; as I'm sure you know at least in some part, being a THF.
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#36 Aug 04 2010 at 3:59 PM Rating: Good
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I hear you Meldi.

I'm sure most of the career THF on this board can produce similar parses. MY issue is not with damage potential, well...except for a new 2 hour. THF has always been capable of putting out good numbers. IT will surely get soundly trounced when the better designed DD jobs meet ideal buffs with intelligent gear and playstyle.

The reason I want these changes is because THF DD potential, now more than ever is becoming more and more dependant on large group dynamics that really make it unreasonably difficult to use our DD tools consistantly compared to other "DD jobs."

Especially when no one wants to be trick attacked. I think this is just as much of a DD weakness than any actual inability to deal damage. The fact that 50% of our primary DD JA **** is something DD's just plain dont WANT on them. I don't know if you have the same issue, but it seems stronger I get, the more people dodge my trick attacks. They take notice that when I land them...they hit hard and usually mobs turn to them. Especially when you have good DD's that are riding the hate line.

Parses are...good and not good. There are a lot of things going that effect the numbers on that spread sheet. When a THF beats a DD job with more inherant potential, it is the player not the job. And while you will be aplauded for being a gg DD as a player, that does not mean there aren't short comings and ballancing issue with the job.
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#37 Aug 04 2010 at 6:04 PM Rating: Excellent
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492 posts
ThiefKiller wrote:
I hear you Meldi.

I'm sure most of the career THF on this board can produce similar parses. MY issue is not with damage potential, well...except for a new 2 hour. THF has always been capable of putting out good numbers. IT will surely get soundly trounced when the better designed DD jobs meet ideal buffs with intelligent gear and playstyle.

The reason I want these changes is because THF DD potential, now more than ever is becoming more and more dependant on large group dynamics that really make it unreasonably difficult to use our DD tools consistantly compared to other "DD jobs."

Especially when no one wants to be trick attacked. I think this is just as much of a DD weakness than any actual inability to deal damage. The fact that 50% of our primary DD JA **** is something DD's just plain dont WANT on them. I don't know if you have the same issue, but it seems stronger I get, the more people dodge my trick attacks. They take notice that when I land them...they hit hard and usually mobs turn to them. Especially when you have good DD's that are riding the hate line.

Parses are...good and not good. There are a lot of things going that effect the numbers on that spread sheet. When a THF beats a DD job with more inherant potential, it is the player not the job. And while you will be aplauded for being a gg DD as a player, that does not mean there aren't short comings and ballancing issue with the job.


Which is what I believe most of us here are saying, barring high defense targets we're not bad given an equal playing field. That means given equal buffs and allowed to use our JA's as mentioned in Meldi's post. Now I'm somewhat wondering what it would take for people to place THF in equal standing of DD for their own perception. Surely we'd have to deal with *that* knife in areas where it's not feasible to macro it in/out. (Dyna, Limbus if you care about coins, etc, etc) but maybe allowing THF to have the 2H modifier while using daggers and an A+ skill? I'm really not sure. I still think TA could be solved reasonably by lower enmity. ****, some of the retarded melee who refuse to put a THF in a buffed party simply because they're a THF might swap us in then. (Hey he hits harder on TA, less hate for me kinda deal)

Would a 2H modifier and A+ skill be enough/too much though? As an elvaan with fully merited STR gaining an A+ skill and the 2H modifier would give a gain of.. 26 attack total and 24 accuracy (Including both the 1H vs 2H mod difference and the 7 extra att, 6 extra acc from 7 more skill) That would be very nice and doesn't seem to overpowered, given our inferior armor choices and lack of Hasso, etc.


EDIT: Typo @.@

Edited, Aug 4th 2010 8:05pm by ElvaanTHF
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#38 Aug 04 2010 at 9:12 PM Rating: Excellent
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I am all for changing requirements so we can MEET our potential.

Im personally not all gung ho about upping our potential very much (i like where the crit trait is going. Could use a LITTLE boost otherwise).

As we all know here, thf does fine damage on squishy things. It can keep up on higher things with some proper gear(and buffs). Its only the really hard mobs we start to fall behind on with lack of....well everything. Acc/atk/haste etc.

But im fine with that scenario. As mobs get harder, jobs start to sift out into their specialties. Some DDs stand out over others. Mages start doing more specific roles. ie easy mobs you might let a sam DD+Tank. On an HNM they just DD. Everyone becomes streamlined into very specialized roles. Thf would be the feint/TH/hate control/status bolts etc and some bleh DD. Other pure DD jobs obviously get specialized into pure DD.

For this reason i really dont think we need some OMGBBQ damage boost, but a little assist on high end mobs would be welcome.
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Anyway, as ive said in other threads, Thf is a support DD. On HNMs jobs get streamlined to their specialty roles they are best at. Thf is Part DD, part Hate control/support (feint/aura steal/SATA/COllaborater/TH4 etc). They need to either:

a)Give us a significant DD boost
or:
B) give us better support skills THAT PEOPLE NEED. Hatecontrol is a GREAT idea, but teh way the playerbase uses the game, hate control is pretty bleh. There are specific situations its great. But its not ubiquitous enough to be an excuse for poor DD.

Gotta buff something. SE just needs to get off the fence on what it wants thf to do. We are about like Rdms were back in the day. Jack of multiple skills/trades is great on pansy stuff. On high end mobs they were useless because other specialized roles beat them at everything. Then SE gave them A+ enfeeble and some spell changes that made them into "Jack of all trades, master of enfeeble". We need a change like this "Jack of support DD stuff, master of ???". Right now we are just "Jack of support DD stuff, master of TH". That is not acceptable.
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#39 Aug 05 2010 at 3:28 AM Rating: Good
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We need reverse accomplice so that we may siphon hate out of someone give it to someone else.

Edited, Aug 5th 2010 6:41am by Lobivopis
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Final Fantasy XI 12-14-11 Update wrote:
Adjust the resolution of menus.
The main screen resolution for "FINAL FANTASY XI" is dependent on the "Overlay Graphics Resolution" setting.
If the Overlay Graphics Resolution is set higher than the Menu Resolution, menus will be automatically resized.


I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#40 Aug 05 2010 at 6:58 AM Rating: Good
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3,775 posts
The positional requirements can be problematic for me some times more than others but I get acceptable success rates even when the melee are trying to dodge me and spinning the mob like a top. I may have to save SA for weaponskills more often and if the melees are really dodgy I'll throw out collaborater even if they move to get the point across, but I manage to land most of my criticals. What was said about party support is paramount. Buffs matter!! If you're you're not dealing damage because you're solo or in the mage group that's not a problem with the job; it's a problem with the group dynamics. Whomever is blessed by support buffs will outdamage anyone who isn't. You could take an unbuffed monk/war and pit him against me with haste + 2x march and chaos roll and I'd crush his damage so bad it's not funny. But give that same monk/war the same buffs I'm getting and I don't have a snowballs chance in **** of keeping up. When I ran salvage I was often solo or partied with one other and usually got my cells last. That's Salvage and not the jobs fault again. More than any other event Salvage stresses making personal sacrifices for the group and working as a team which is why I think it's still the most difficult event for people to do. People don't LIKE to sacrifice their potential and watch someone else take center stage and since we've worked so hard for our equipment telling us we can't use it is a difficult pill to swallow. That's human nature and it wasn't easy for me to stay in salvage being mostly naked and unbuffed a majority of the time but I did it anyway. I stayed focused on the bigger picture; namely that my group was helping me get my equipment in exchange for my services by performing the less glamorous roles thief is specialized at. In fact

Quote:
As mobs get harder, jobs start to sift out into their specialties. Some DDs stand out over others. Mages start doing more specific roles. ie easy mobs you might let a sam DD+Tank. On an HNM they just DD. Everyone becomes streamlined into very specialized roles. Thf would be the feint/TH/hate control/status bolts etc and some bleh DD.


This applies to salvage just as much as HNM. The mobs ARE hard without cells and since there are never enough cells for everybody (other than bhaflu remnants) somebody's going to be stuck with Pathos. In this case thief may have a large deal of pathos which is no different than the handicap we face on HNM. While they're not the same I think of Salvage and HNM as synonymous. The only difference is instead of one very hard mob you're dealing with an event with a lot of mobs that gradually get stronger and lead up to a mob that's very dangerous if you're not prepared. My party leaders weren't TRYING to humiliate me, but they had to call cells in an efficient manner so we could kill as many NM's as possible each run and still try to get an attempt at the boss boss in. When I ran salvage I realized this and tried to keep a mindset that put the groups needs above my own despite not wanting to.

Now putting my salvage experiences aside, thief DD is on a more level playing field with other DD on weaker mobs. If you're buffed and geared properly you can put up respectable numbers as a thief when you're not facing high end mobs. Here's a fun note on abyssea: There are so many people in an abyssea experience alliance there's almost no way NOT to land trick attack Smiley: nod. When you have 10 melees huddled around one mob trick attack is almost guaranteed to hit ONE of them, and since the mobs should die fast anyway the healers/support shouldn't have issues keeping them from dying. Sneak attack is harder to land but I try to anticipate where the mob will be based on my surroundings (where the mob is in relation to a majority of the people, who gets the first hit in, etc). In fact here's a link to my most recent abyssea exp alliance performance. That's my sneak attack section of the kparser thief tab. I was trying out red curry buns with hunter's + chaos roll while fighting Mandragora's in an 18 man abyssea-tahrongi alliance. If you look closely even my successful solo sneak attacks outnumbered those that missed.

Summarizing my thoughts on the topic yes I would like a boost to thief DD in the HNM scene area. I don't think we should be able to hurt them as well as a "DD only" melee but our damage output is lacking a bit too much there. I like where s-e is going with the critical attack trait and I'd like to see them add some way for us to significantly increase our critical hit RATE with gear akin to the salvage set bonus but on a piece by piece basis instead of "set only". I'm curious to see how /war and fencer will fare come level 90 as well. I think our damage potential is pretty good if the mobs are squishy but we need to be geared well with enough haste/accuracy to get the job done. Our tp set is still the most important set we own so making a good one is paramount to our success no matter what role we're placed in.

Edited, Aug 5th 2010 9:15am by Melphina
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There are 10 kinds of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.
#41 Aug 05 2010 at 11:13 AM Rating: Excellent
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492 posts
"Melphina" wrote:
Summarizing my thoughts on the topic yes I would like a boost to thief DD in the HNM scene area. I don't think we should be able to hurt them as well as a "DD only" melee but our damage output is lacking a bit too much there. I like where s-e is going with the critical attack trait and I'd like to see them add some way for us to significantly increase our critical hit RATE with gear akin to the salvage set bonus but on a piece by piece basis instead of "set only". I'm curious to see how /war and fencer will fare come level 90 as well. I think our damage potential is pretty good if the mobs are squishy but we need to be geared well with enough haste/accuracy to get the job done. Our tp set is still the most important set we own so making a good one is paramount to our success no matter what role we're placed in.

Edited, Aug 5th 2010 9:15am by Melphina


I disagree slightly with one viewpoint in your statement. I never understood why people think THF's "Hate control" aspect warrants a inferior (By whatever degree, small or large) DD capability as other jobs. I always felt as though DD all had their primary DD aspect then a secondary "Niche" which barring THF (Until recently, BST also) included all DD jobs. You want stun, the ability to tank in a pinch? Grab a DRK? Want a DD who can set up constant SCs for your BLM and tank slightly? Grab a SAM? Want a DD who can first voke/tank in events where you don't need one of the weaker DD and tank jobs like PLD and NIN? Grab a WAR. THF is the only job who SE decided that our "Niche function" warranted a lack of inclusion into DD buffs. Kind of funny given THF's "Niche function" is the only one that is generally viewed as worthless for the past 4-5 years.
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THF on HNM attack in Binary. 10010110101
#42 Aug 05 2010 at 1:43 PM Rating: Default
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2,270 posts
To be fair, we have WAY more tools for all kinds of things than say.....a war.

All DDs can DD. All of war abilities are aimed at increasing their damage (except lolWarcry is group and lolDefender that sucks anyway). What does a war really do for the group? damage and has voke. Thats really it. So they do LOTS of damage with a side of voke. If all thf had was collaborator i would agree with you (ghetto wierd voke thingy on a 2x timer that also absorbs hate). But we dont. War can use lots of weapons, also something that A: is just more DD, B: isnt better than just focusing on their main weapons.

*We have higest eva in the game (kiting specialist among other uses)
*Feint. Nuff said.
*TH. Our gift and curse
*MULTIPLE ways to manipulate hate.
*Low hate DD (we can choose to DD but transfer the bulk of it therefore making us "low-hate")
*Dispel ability
*Most GOOD skillchain options of anyone in the game. Frag/Fusion/Grav. And DE has decent properties too (dovetails very nicely with SATAWS for hate)
*Moderate /ra power (gun/archery)
*status bolts (Xbow)
*Other stuff im forgetting

These arent just a list of abilities like you could on war. These are specialized actions we can perform that are NOT just "MOAR DAMAGE!". Some overlap other jobs. EG Sam can SC almost as well (rana kinda lame) and has /ra DD but lacks anything to really give to the group besides skillchains. Wars dont have anything to give to a group besides DD+Vokes+lolTomahawk. Drg has better low hate DD+angon(instead of feint) but lacks much else. (/mage is a different bst but sucks for endgame, the topic of discussion). Rng has better rng DD but lacks any other tools at all really.

Anyway you get the idea. We really have a LOT more going for us than most beatstick DDs. I have long considered us the "Rdm of Melees". We can do almost everything most other DDs can in some capacity and a few things better than anyone. This really is a VERY versatile job. Can a Mnk really do so many different things? Can a war? Sam?
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Anyway, i dont mean this all as a "OMG THFS FINE GUYS!" but just to point out there IS a reason we got gimped DD compared to the more straightforward DD jobs. We have a multitude of abilities, but the only things that are strong enough that dont "sift out" on HNMs where jobs become specialized is Feint/TH and "hate control". Just that hate control is not nearly as useful in practice as it is on paper. Why would you have a Thf+DD to steal DD hate so they can go balls>Wall when you can instead have DD+DD ball>wall, eat it then replace with 2 more fresh DDs and stick the thf in at 5%? You wouldnt. In limited resource situations (low man etc) thf kicks ****. But in large scale events, there is no need for the finesse thf adds. SE just needs to either up our DD, or give us some really powerful skills aimed at big game fights that are a real reason you want them. People WANT me to go drg to HNMs not because i do nice damage, but because i have capped angon, do REALLY nice damage and shed my own hate. My rng is desirable not because it just does damage, but because it does damage outside of AOE range.

I cant say that about thf. "My thf is desirable because it does bleh damage but has feint/TH/Hate control" becomes "My thf does bleh damage and has feint/TH....um nvm just stick it in at 5%". That has to change to either more damage or DESIRABLE support skills. Either way works. But just have to commit to one side or the other.
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99Thf/99Drg/99Rng/95Pld/Secret Job 92
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Lu Shangs-5/28/08
Twashtar-90
Ryunohige-75: 1/7/2012
Mandau-75: 3/9/2012

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Join 'People Against The Heart Snatcher' and help put Thfs on the right P.A.T.H.S. today!
#43 Aug 05 2010 at 2:36 PM Rating: Excellent
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1,064 posts
Mistress Melphina wrote:
The positional requirements can be problematic for me some times more than others but I get acceptable success rates even when the melee are trying to dodge me and spinning the mob like a top....

....In fact here's a link to my most recent abyssea exp alliance performance. That's my sneak attack section of the kparser thief tab. I was trying out red curry buns with hunter's + chaos roll while fighting Mandragora's in an 18 man abyssea-tahrongi alliance. If you look closely even my successful solo sneak attacks outnumbered those that missed.



In that link I see 44 attempts, 14 stacked with DE, 30 solo attempts and 11 missis. You missed 36.67% of your solo sneak attack attempts and 25% of all of them.

You are a telented, dedicated, intelligent THF. Lesser THFs may fair worse.

We have different definitions of the word "acceptable". I find it unreasonable that even an experienced THF has to accept a sneak attack miss rate of at least 1 in 4. Especially in today's FFXI.
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THF99/BRD99
#44 Aug 05 2010 at 2:51 PM Rating: Excellent
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492 posts
Banalaty wrote:
To be fair, we have WAY more tools for all kinds of things than say.....a war.

All DDs can DD. All of war abilities are aimed at increasing their damage (except lolWarcry is group and lolDefender that sucks anyway). What does a war really do for the group? damage and has voke. Thats really it. So they do LOTS of damage with a side of voke. If all thf had was collaborator i would agree with you (ghetto wierd voke thingy on a 2x timer that also absorbs hate). But we dont. War can use lots of weapons, also something that A: is just more DD, B: isnt better than just focusing on their main weapons.

*We have higest eva in the game (kiting specialist among other uses)
*Feint. Nuff said.
*TH. Our gift and curse
*MULTIPLE ways to manipulate hate.
*Low hate DD (we can choose to DD but transfer the bulk of it therefore making us "low-hate")
*Dispel ability
*Most GOOD skillchain options of anyone in the game. Frag/Fusion/Grav. And DE has decent properties too (dovetails very nicely with SATAWS for hate)
*Moderate /ra power (gun/archery)
*status bolts (Xbow)
*Other stuff im forgetting

These arent just a list of abilities like you could on war. These are specialized actions we can perform that are NOT just "MOAR DAMAGE!". Some overlap other jobs. EG Sam can SC almost as well (rana kinda lame) and has /ra DD but lacks anything to really give to the group besides skillchains. Wars dont have anything to give to a group besides DD+Vokes+lolTomahawk. Drg has better low hate DD+angon(instead of feint) but lacks much else. (/mage is a different bst but sucks for endgame, the topic of discussion). Rng has better rng DD but lacks any other tools at all really.

Anyway you get the idea. We really have a LOT more going for us than most beatstick DDs. I have long considered us the "Rdm of Melees". We can do almost everything most other DDs can in some capacity and a few things better than anyone. This really is a VERY versatile job. Can a Mnk really do so many different things? Can a war? Sam?
_______________________________________________________________

Anyway, i dont mean this all as a "OMG THFS FINE GUYS!" but just to point out there IS a reason we got gimped DD compared to the more straightforward DD jobs. We have a multitude of abilities, but the only things that are strong enough that dont "sift out" on HNMs where jobs become specialized is Feint/TH and "hate control". Just that hate control is not nearly as useful in practice as it is on paper. Why would you have a Thf+DD to steal DD hate so they can go balls>Wall when you can instead have DD+DD ball>wall, eat it then replace with 2 more fresh DDs and stick the thf in at 5%? You wouldnt. In limited resource situations (low man etc) thf kicks ****. But in large scale events, there is no need for the finesse thf adds. SE just needs to either up our DD, or give us some really powerful skills aimed at big game fights that are a real reason you want them. People WANT me to go drg to HNMs not because i do nice damage, but because i have capped angon, do REALLY nice damage and shed my own hate. My rng is desirable not because it just does damage, but because it does damage outside of AOE range.

I cant say that about thf. "My thf is desirable because it does bleh damage but has feint/TH/Hate control" becomes "My thf does bleh damage and has feint/TH....um nvm just stick it in at 5%". That has to change to either more damage or DESIRABLE support skills. Either way works. But just have to commit to one side or the other.


I guess I'll address those in the same order..

Kiting masters? I can't see it, we have a choice of no shadows or no hate gaining abilities outside of collaborator, and if your ranged DD can kite it long enough for collaborator to firmly plant hate, they could do it easily without you. Our tanking ability is good in low man hard target situations where the DD allow us to tank via helping with SA and collaborator.

Feint? Touche, it's an extremely good ability, sadly most players only use their feint sets on BV2 and dyna lord it seems, as seeing "[Feint] [Just used it.]" in party chat never seems to make a difference to DD who were capping accuracy. (man you can tell I'm a THF main, I had a seperate TP set for my SAM when A THF hit his feint macro. :\)

TH? I think we know how it turns out when people put alot of importance into that trait.

We have one way to manipulate hate outside of TA; collaborator/accomplice, the end. Not multiples, and TA 1.) Is rather pointless with current hate caps in most big fights outside of the extra damage and 2.) Some LS prefer bringing the "Real DD" as /THF if it's that necessary as (Ask Shamaya about this too) a great SAM's SATAWS will beat a perfect THF's. Very sad, but true.

I wouldn't count our "low hate DD" as a good thing really, I would love to put that evasion to some real use by pulling hate, not stealing other people's hate. (Again, this is on high def targets, we all know well that on anything VT or lower THF is win)

Dispel ability.. Yeah, I personally don't count aura steal as a form of dispel in a group event. I'll use it for sure in hopes that I get the buff and save the RDM's 25 MP or the Bard's 2 second cast time, that's it, once every 5 minutes to boot.

Our RA power is debatable, with Xbow we get status bolts, the end, the same ones a DRK and WAR could use effectively on low stuff, and on high stuff a THF isn't landing the effects either. We get a **** Hand-Cannon but it's not exactly feasible to use currently other than a few special scenarios; cannon shells are not always in high stock and most can't afford to buy them when available and store around the things. **** my 17 equipment sets for THF)

Ultimately, if hate was a huge issue having your melee sub /DRG and shedding hate is better for prolonged fights, having them /THF for hate planting is better for shorter fights, and our versatility I would dare say not as useful as "The real DD" who can provide alternate support types while "hitting big"

Once again, the examples are while in high defense target, group events, not lower level targets or low man scenarios. Bolts are great for those scenarios, but also not exactly a THF specialty.

Hate management is I think the sticking point though. SE would have to make our hate management GODLY in order for it to be more of use than just the current tactics used to ensure the tanks are the only ones being hit. The DD boost might just be easier on SE's end.
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#45 Aug 05 2010 at 3:02 PM Rating: Excellent
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2,270 posts
I mean kiting as in take something and run around, long pulls or otherwise taking a monster out of the picture for a while, not a kite+tank style.

I get what you are saying and i should have been more clear. We can do all those things and more on softer targets, not HNMs. In smaller group/easier mob situations ee can tank, kite(not tank+kite), DD, control hate very well (like 1 party type scenarios we really can manipulate the dynamics of a small group very well), use ranged DD and/or status bolts effectively, TH ****, feint, and all that other stuff. A war is still just a beatstick with voke. Bring it up to "hard" stuff and War is STILL a beatstick with voke. Thf looses ALL of that versatility except for Feint/TH and the occasional need for collaborater (very mob/group specific).

I didnt mean to say we could do all that on hard mobs, just that the job is inherently versatile. Much like the rdm of yor, but just a melee onry version. We can do everything other melees can do to some degree, but when you optimize in preperation for HNMs, Thf (like rdm before refresh and A+ enfeeble) is outclassed by the more specialized jobs in every way but TH/Feint and "hate control" and with hate control being virtually obselete, we are the TH/Feint **** husk of an otherwise beautiful job.

We need a thf update like rdm got that gives us a clear task to do during an HNM that is continuous that doesnt break us during the rest of the game where we are still very good. Not just stick TH then afk. That means more damage and make us DD+TH **** much like war is DD+voke, or give us some really good versatility that works effectively on large groups. We simply cant do enough single target hate manipulation to effect 18+ people. 6man parties our hate stuff ROCKS. 18...its a drop in the bucket. We need a large scale event task. DD or something else entirely. Just something.

Edited, Aug 5th 2010 5:05pm by Banalaty
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Aanalaty, Mithra of San d'Oria
99Thf/99Drg/99Rng/95Pld/Secret Job 92
Bonecraft-100+3 7/29/08
Lu Shangs-5/28/08
Twashtar-90
Ryunohige-75: 1/7/2012
Mandau-75: 3/9/2012

Maat-1/1 Thf Meleed (pansies steal)
Some of mah gearz: http://www.ffxiah.com/player/Lakshmi/Aanalaty#item-sets
Join 'People Against The Heart Snatcher' and help put Thfs on the right P.A.T.H.S. today!
#46 Aug 05 2010 at 5:24 PM Rating: Decent
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7,094 posts
I've said this before, but I guess it's been a while:

Adjustments designed to increase THF's damage are inherently futile. There will always be a better DD, and if there isn't, there will be soon. The definition of "desired DD" is constantly shifting in this game.

Asking for buffs to THF's damage output is a waste of time; if they buff THF's damage output but also buff other DDs' output too, you're right back where you started. What you really want is to be better than your competition, and if that's what you want, you should learn how to say what you mean.

The only sustainable, long-term future that THF has (outside of a radical redesign) is further improvements in our ability to manage hate. Giving THF a native Provoke would be far more beneficial than increasing the damage or usability of SA.

There are many ways to improve THF in ways that do not attempt to push THF further in the DD rat race. THF players should try to focus on new, innovative ways for THF to manage enmity instead of continuing to try to push THF down a dead-end DD path.

Edited, Aug 5th 2010 4:25pm by redvenomweb
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Viper Beam - ARC/CRP - Fabul
#47 Aug 05 2010 at 6:23 PM Rating: Excellent
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492 posts
redvenomweb wrote:
I've said this before, but I guess it's been a while:

Adjustments designed to increase THF's damage are inherently futile. There will always be a better DD, and if there isn't, there will be soon. The definition of "desired DD" is constantly shifting in this game.

Asking for buffs to THF's damage output is a waste of time; if they buff THF's damage output but also buff other DDs' output too, you're right back where you started. What you really want is to be better than your competition, and if that's what you want, you should learn how to say what you mean.

The only sustainable, long-term future that THF has (outside of a radical redesign) is further improvements in our ability to manage hate. Giving THF a native Provoke would be far more beneficial than increasing the damage or usability of SA.

There are many ways to improve THF in ways that do not attempt to push THF further in the DD rat race. THF players should try to focus on new, innovative ways for THF to manage enmity instead of continuing to try to push THF down a dead-end DD path.

Edited, Aug 5th 2010 4:25pm by redvenomweb



Actually people want to be on equal footing as the other DD in areas where the game mechanics push us into a corner. You're saying asking for a DD buff on high DEF/level targets is futile because of something they might do in the future. ****, you're logic on it is based off of, "They won't, but if they do, they'll buff others more." When there's no reason it couldn't be a, "They buff THF specifically once, and balance **** out so all melee are relatively effective with their own special niches" situation. Giving a DD buff is actually WAY more feasible. With the current hate system we're basically limited to removing hate of other's. DDs, tanks, mages can all hit the hate cap fairly easily, adding more to that means squat. Giving us provoke? What? :\
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THF on HNM attack in Binary. 10010110101
#48 Aug 05 2010 at 9:43 PM Rating: Default
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7,094 posts
ElvaanTHF wrote:
Actually people want to be on equal footing as the other DD in areas where the game mechanics push us into a corner. You're saying asking for a DD buff on high DEF/level targets is futile because of something they might do in the future. ****, you're logic on it is based off of, "They won't, but if they do, they'll buff others more."

No, it isn't.

You're asking to be made better relative to the other DDs. Guess what? Every DD wants to be made better relative to the other DDs. But at the end of the day, someone has to be at the bottom (note: I'm not saying THF is). So unless you have some objective reason that THF deserves to climb over another job in the DD ranks, your argument is not at all compelling.

Put another way, here's a straightforward method I use to evaluate requests for DD job buffs:

If Squenix implemented your desired change, but also gave other lowly-regarded DDs something that increases their damage even more (e.g. 1h Hasso to NIN, Berserk to PUP, etc.) so that at the end of the day, you now have the lowest DD output in the game, would you still want this change to be enacted?

If the answer to this question is, "No, I would not," then your request is almost certainly without merit. Your problem is not with the balance in the game; it's with your position on the totem pole.
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#49 Aug 05 2010 at 11:13 PM Rating: Excellent
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492 posts
redvenomweb wrote:
ElvaanTHF wrote:
Actually people want to be on equal footing as the other DD in areas where the game mechanics push us into a corner. You're saying asking for a DD buff on high DEF/level targets is futile because of something they might do in the future. ****, you're logic on it is based off of, "They won't, but if they do, they'll buff others more."

No, it isn't.

You're asking to be made better relative to the other DDs. Guess what? Every DD wants to be made better relative to the other DDs. But at the end of the day, someone has to be at the bottom (note: I'm not saying THF is). So unless you have some objective reason that THF deserves to climb over another job in the DD ranks, your argument is not at all compelling.

Put another way, here's a straightforward method I use to evaluate requests for DD job buffs:

If Squenix implemented your desired change, but also gave other lowly-regarded DDs something that increases their damage even more (e.g. 1h Hasso to NIN, Berserk to PUP, etc.) so that at the end of the day, you now have the lowest DD output in the game, would you still want this change to be enacted?

If the answer to this question is, "No, I would not," then your request is almost certainly without merit. Your problem is not with the balance in the game; it's with your position on the totem pole.


Go ahead and quote what anyone here said that said they wanted to be better than other DD's and you'll have my apology.

Also, your entire argument is that some job HAS to suck compared to the other's, what's that about?
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THF on HNM attack in Binary. 10010110101
#50 Aug 06 2010 at 7:36 AM Rating: Good
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2,270 posts
The request isnt anything about being better than any other DD. It is having ENOUGH DD so that people wont kick thf from the alli for a (insert job of the month) only to invite thf at 5% to stick TH, OR (from my perspective) give thf enough non-DD activities that warrant a slot in an ally with our current DD output. Right now there is no reason to use a thf beyond the last 5% in most alli type HNM scenarios or do you deny that? Most people would drop a thf in a sec for a multitude of other jobs, not because there is a damage difference, but because there is a SEVERE damage rift.

Every 2hander in the game has WAY more potential on hard mobs. Its not that thf is a "little" behind. As much as I love thf and all and how **** well geared it is, I have no delusions about my DD output when im on my pimped out thf or my equally pimped out drg.

This isnt about thf beating my drg. Its about bringing it into the same ballpark so that an alli wont be so quick to kick us. And to check your "litmus test" i would have NO problem with Nin etc getting a similar boost (Nin in particular is hurting a bit right now and in a similar situation really. Very versatile on other lower stuff, limited application to HNM. Their tanking got hurt pretty bad with the enfeeble hate nerf). But you cant just blanket and say "if every 1hander got this buff would you still go for it" because other jobs already have specific uses. Pup kicks SERIOUS **** on most HNMs that last more than a few min. They struggle keeping up on 2sec fight mobs like ein/dynamis more than anything. They dont need an HNM buff. ranged/Magic/Melee autos are mean as **** on HNMs. Whm auto is great support on less intense stuff, but pup suffers in the opposite way. On fast kill easy mobs. Bst's new jug pets are serious business and ARE bsts DD buff. Mnk could use some help on HNMs specifically. Nin definately can. Thf can. Pup and Bst are in pretty good shape between their actual damage output being pretty good on HNM and because its pet meaning its expendable unlike players.

I dont think anyone is saying we have to be identical to my drg or a great sam (sh*tty ones are....sh*tty xD), but to put us in the same world on HNMs so we can USE our other abilities instead of zzz outside ally till 5%. OR, in my case, buff up our support skills to be more useful in large scale events. Single target hate moves dont sway a battle in an alli. In a party they can save the day. 18 people it isnt enough. I want a reason to keep a thf in fro 100% to zero.
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Edit: To clarify the issue. If there is already a TH4 thf in an alliance for a fight that does not involve some type of kite/sacing etc, has ANYONE ever been told to come on thf in leu of another DD job? I never have. If the TH role is taken in an alli, i have NEVER ONCE been asked to come as a second thf over my drg/Rng (ignoring pld as its a dif role). That means that if there were no TH/Feint/Sac/Kite you WOULD NOT use a thf for anything. We need SOMETHING that would excuse a second thf in an alli (or a 1st thf in an alli if you are over 18 people instead of swap in at 5%). That can be more DD (ie LS says "just come on a DD job") or for some super duper support skills (We need (insert thf skillz) come thf). Right now those skills are "we need TH. Come thf". We are only in an alli usually because there is noting better to put there. If there was another DD, you get dropped till 5%. Shouldnt be that way.

Edited, Aug 6th 2010 9:42am by Banalaty

Edited, Aug 6th 2010 9:44am by Banalaty
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Aanalaty, Mithra of San d'Oria
99Thf/99Drg/99Rng/95Pld/Secret Job 92
Bonecraft-100+3 7/29/08
Lu Shangs-5/28/08
Twashtar-90
Ryunohige-75: 1/7/2012
Mandau-75: 3/9/2012

Maat-1/1 Thf Meleed (pansies steal)
Some of mah gearz: http://www.ffxiah.com/player/Lakshmi/Aanalaty#item-sets
Join 'People Against The Heart Snatcher' and help put Thfs on the right P.A.T.H.S. today!
#51 Aug 06 2010 at 9:21 AM Rating: Default
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7,094 posts
Listen, this isn't complicated:

It is impossible for every job to be exactly equal; even among 2h jobs, SAMs get picked more than the rest. In MMOs full of mix-maxing players, there will be a pecking order, and someone will be at the bottom. If your argument is that the someone shouldn't be your job, then explain why some other job deserves to be at the bottom more than you do.

THF already has more non-DD utility than any other DD. So why does THF deserve to leapfrog another DD job?

edit:
Banalaty wrote:
If there is already a TH4 thf in an alliance for a fight that does not involve some type of kite/sacing etc, has ANYONE ever been told to come on thf in leu of another DD job? I never have.

This is the entire f'ing point.

Why are you insisting on more toys to compete for spots with other DDs, when you could be asking for more tools so that THEY can't compete with your utility?

Is your goal to be in the alliance, or to be near the top of the parse?

Edited, Aug 6th 2010 8:25am by redvenomweb
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Terraxia - RNG/COR/THF - Midgardsormr/Quetzalcoatl (boxed)
Viper Beam - ARC/CRP - Fabul
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