Time for a ChangeFollow

Continued from the Despoil Thread

It would be nice to create a unified petition for THF that all of us could agree on and send to SE. But it seems people have their own (often very different) specific solutions to the problems that Thief faces. Others don't agree on the problem(s).

As I see it, most of these issues are based on the opportunity for THF to deal damage. I have heard it said many times that THF is not a DD job by design. I disagree. I think it is a DD job based around a party dynamic that is no longer relevant

Many of our skills, abilities and traits are designed specifically for the purpose of DD. Sneak Attack, Trick attack, Triple Attack, Assassin, Critical Attack Bonus, Top tier DD daggers, Top Tier DD Armor, high dagger skill rating, and high damage potential weapon skills. Almost all of our Merits are DD oriented. Especially Category 2

In my opinion there are three areas that Thief needs fixing.

1. A damaging 2 hour ability.
This one has been admitted by SE and is overdue for a fix. It’s one of the fundamental reasons that every other DD job has more damage potential in many situations: In addition to their other bag of DD tricks, they can deal damage with their 2 hour. THF can’t.

I propose they do with us what they did with DRG: Put PD on a shorter timer and give us a damaging 2 hour ability.

That may sound extreme to some. But, Perfect Dodge isn’t that strong. It only lasts 30 seconds and doesn’t dodge ranged attacks or protect you from magic. I can already do what PD does…BETTER with Flee, shadows and a max evasion set.

With a damaging two hour, we can start to level the playing field with the other DD’s

2. The opportunity to deal damage to high defence targets.
I definitely think critical hits are the way to do it. It seems like SE does too. I like where they are going with the Critical Attack Bonus traits. We’ll have to see how they progress with levels. I can only hope we get the highest.

However, we also need a way boost to critical attack RATE. Either through job traits, better critical hit rate gear…something. THF needs to be able to meaningfully increase critical hit rate for it to be something that can compete. And we need to be able to do this without being forced to /war for fencer or sacrificing vital stats like Haste, ACC, ATT etc to do it.

3. The utility of Thief job abilities. This is two parts for me:
Sneak Attack and Trick Attack
THF’s main downfall is that using our fundamental damaging abilities requires an unreasonable level of cooperation that most groups aren't willing to cater to.

Many of today's FFXI events are not THF DD friendly because it is often most effective for the DD’s to burn TP at 100%, kill faster and bounce hate to mitigate damage between them. The mobs are constantly changing directions, making it difficult to land Sneak Attack consistently. In tankless TP burn parties, none of the DD’s WANT to be trick attacked. Maybe if they aren’t paying attention or don;t care you can land them, but a good portion of the DD’s I meet move out of the way when they see me ready trick attack behind them. This problem only gets worse the better your THF is. You're thinking "YEAH!! Check out that sick Trick Attack I just landed!" The other DD's are saying "Whoa! gtfo with that...I pull enough hate as it is. I don't want that on me!"

So, rather than lining up for a SATA line, making sure they don't turn the monster so the THF can land Sneak Attack, NOT jumping out of the way when they see a THF using trick attack behind them, or fulfilling any of the positional requirements that dealing damage as a THF requires, most DD will simply carry on like there was never a THF there. It is just more efficient for them to do so.

And why shouldn't they? Why should they have to sacrifice their own damage and efficiency, or take on the added risk of increased enmity, just so THF can do its DD job? This is quite a hindrance.

Further more, at the time I am typing this, I cannot remember the last time I was asked to come to an event that is actually tanked to use trick attack and help the tank keep hate. I didn’t see a THF trick attacking that RDM in their AV video!!

I propose that SE remove the positional REQUIREMENTS and create positional enhancements via job traits that cannot be subbed.

Sneak Attack: Your next attack will deal critical damage based on the same DEX formula that it is now. Same guaranteed Critical, same everything.

Instead of REQUIRING Sneak Attack to be performed behind a mob to land, performing it behind the mob will enhance it in some way. This enhancement could be: shedding a certain amount of enmity, or decreased enmity for the hit/WS, or even generating increased enmity so we can better use our evasive skills. It could even add a (not random <.<) status ailment . SE could really do a lot of things with this but make it a positional enhancement instead of a requirement.

Trick Attack: Your next attack will deal extra damage based on your AGL. Same guaranteed Critical, same everything. Instead of REQUIRING you to be behind a party member for it to land, it will transfer enmity only if performed behind a party member.

I’ve heard a few people say that removing the positional requirements would be “broken.” I strongly disagree with this. Specifically because it would not allow us to surpass our current potential at all. IF parties still worked like it was 2005 and tanks held hate for everything and no one TP burned anything, we would already be able to do this. The fact is, the game has evolved and THF has not. Our abilities are harder to land than is reasonable and often unwanted for their intended purpose.

With this change THF would put out consistent DD, but keep to the positional nature of the job to make use of the secondary enmity utility SE means us to have.

Thief Job Abilities like Aura Steal, Despoil, Steal, Mug etc.
Admittedly, this area is a sore spot for me. I have always been let down by Thiefesque abilities in FFXI.

I find that all of them have unreasonably long recast timers and unnecessarily low successes rates. I find that despoil and mug aren’t really worth using. I think that having aura steal attached to (item) steal is absurd, let alone only being usable every 5 minutes (with a chance to miss completely if the target has an item).

I have always wanted them to create steal categories akin to waltzes and sambas, have those groupings share recast timers and lower them to a max of 1 minute across the board (with some being less).

I mean, it is right there …make use of steal abilities as an offensive weapon. Steal TP, steal ACC, Steal Attack, Steal DEX, Steal Evasion, Steals that don’t take something but give a status ailment (Think Despoil…only useful) etc. There is no reason Thief shouldn’t utilize steal in battle. Especially since SE has made it very clear that our money making abilities are too dangerous to be made worth while.

Have three categories:

Money Makers
Steal, Mug, Item steal, Armor steal, Weapon steal (yeah I can dream)

Battle Related Steals
Despoil(not a random debuff), Steal Evasion, Steal ACC, Steal Attack, Steal DEX, etc.

Enmity Steals
Accomplice, Collaborator, An ability that redirects the enmity you stole to someone.

With this change, THF could supplement its DD with offensive steals while being able to retain and utilise its function as a THIEF.
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I apologise this is so long. It seems I had a lot to say lol. This is not a "Hey guys lets send a petition in asking for all these things." Its more of a "Lets start a conversation about the possibility of agreeing on some of them" Maybe it isnt possible? But I'd like to try.

Edited, Aug 3rd 2010 7:51am by ThiefKiller

I'm on board as well.

To fix the damage thing, I've been toying around with the idea of adding an attack boost to the amount of enmity that we have, either gradually through normal enmity gain, or have a direct boost from using accomplice or collaborator. If the latter, could do something like 100 attack that lasts 2.5 min for accomplice and 50 attack that lasts 30 seconds for collaborator.

The sneak attack idea is actually pretty good. Kinda sounds like what they did with RNG (sweetspot) so won't be too overpowered.

The proper analogy to what they did with RNG would be to slightly lower the damage of SA when you are standing behind the mob, and to significantly lower the damage of SA (but still better than a melee attack) if you were standing anywhere else. Not exactly much of an upgrade

Personally, the best and easiest solution to SA/TA problems is: you maintain SA/TA status until you land a qualifying hit (like Feint). For example, you're behind the mob and you pop SA, but it turns right before you swing. That swing becomes a normal melee hit and SA stays up, so you can rotate around to the back of the mob (again) and get another shot. Same applies for TA if your trick buddy moves out of alignment. THF is one of the fastest attacking jobs in the game, so we shouldn't have to spend too much time spinning around.

The great thing about this solution is that it requires no strange or complex new changes that have to be balanced for SJ play; /THF can also have this upgrade with very little concern about outshining THF main.

Edited, Aug 1st 2010 2:08pm by redvenomweb

Signed. Heavily agreed that PD should just be a regular ability. It's too late for AF/relics to enhance it, but there's room for it on new lv 99 merits and new gear along the way possibly.

Edited, Aug 1st 2010 7:37pm by Jevilwolf

How is this relevant?

If they are in front of the mob for Overwhelm, SA will not be applied to the WS.
If they are in back of the mob for SA, Overwhelm will not be applied to the WS.

Letting SA stay on until it's actually used does not affect this dynamic at all.

I don't know if Collaborator easily resolves this. Sure you know you can steal that enmity from them...but what if you needed to use Accomplice? No Trick Attack for 5 minutes? Even if you spent time explaning how your enmity abilities work to other DD's....and were able to make them fully understand how they work...I seriously doubt it will stop people from dodging Trick Attack.

I just met a SAM yesterday (really great gear/had been playing since NA release etc) that still thought Trick Attack transferred all my enmity to him.

Maybe its just me. But I really feel that if THF is ever going to truly rise to the occasion and be percieved as a legit DD, it NEEDS to stop depending on other people to do it.

I just came back to the game, ohh 2 months ago(after not logging on for a year and a half)? I just bought wings of the godess maybe three weeks ago and I just bought abyssea yesterday.

I was just ranting to an old friend that THF's SA/TA are an irrelevant set of abilities in a lot of situations these days. I was trying for the DEX/Acc's last trial some yesterday, and I noticed most of the thieves in the group rarely bothered trying to SA, and none used TA, including myself. I'm almost positive I was the only English native tongue in the 2 group alliance full of pretty much thieves and dancers. So even among the JP from what little I've seen, TA is not often used.

I was helping this same friend I had ranted to last night to kill some imps, and I found about the most use I've had for TA since I've been back. I TA WS'd the friend, who played rdm/dnc in the group, so he could wake up the other guy. And he couldn't move to tell me no!

Anyway, signed!

You aren't using Accomplice in any situation where you are also tricking random DDs.


I don't think the game is going to be designed around dealing with party members who are actively trying to thwart you.

...which is why you use Collaborator on them after TAing them.

At this stage in the game i still say, think bigger. Just reverse SA back to the original version in the game at release. SA works anywhere at full power so long as its not in the mobs frontal vision cone. Add this as an upgraded SA trait just like assassin upgraded TA at lv 60. Just make it lv 75 or whatever. Removes the SA+overwhelm issue as they are mutually exclusive, and doesnt require any fancy new formula for scaling the damage based on your angle from mobs face etc. Simple is better and, in this case, more effective too. Even in big events like einherjar, we wont have much problem landing SA if you have a 70% arc around the mob to land it in.

Also opens up the oldschool SATA on the tank facing the mob with careful positioning making thf far superior to DD/thf for hate planting. Seems an elegant solution the more I think about it. Fixes a lot of issues with a VERY simple change.

I think I posted something very similar to this thread about 6 years ago.

I agree these changes would be for the better and we can keep dreaming. Maybe SE will give THF a SA that is multidirectional for our 99 job ability? Nah! Why would they give a lvl 99 THF something a lvl 15 THF had 7 years ago?

May as well lower magic Attack and Accuracy while you are at it. Lowering ranged Attack and Speed would have zero negative effect on THF.

1H weapon delay -10% (also stacks with -delay from DW)
Accuracy+10%
Attack+15%
Evasion -30%
Defense -30%



Edited, Aug 3rd 2010 5:05am by Lobivopis

Some very good ideas everyone. I can tell a lot of you are putting real thought into this. My thoughts on what I've read so far.

1. Agree: Reduce or remove Thfs need for others to do damage. Let us do the damage SE wanted us to be able to do, but since others won't play along, with out them. Take SA back to the old days will increase our likelyhood of landing SA in party or alliance. Change TA so that people want a thf in the party because of it. Emnity is no longer the answer based on current game play.
2. Agree: Ability to deal better damage to high Def targets.
3. Agree: Make PD as a standard JA w/ some damage enhancing two hour to replace it.
4. Agree: Steal/Dispoil/Aura Steal need fixed. The OP had some cool thoughts on this.

5. Disagree: collaborator is not the fix for TA. The timers do not match for starters and I also agree it takes away the ability to help party members when it is really needed. Imagine the dead blm's... have pity on them! j/k
6. Disagree: Lowering SA/TA timers. I don't think we should be asking to overpower or out DD others. If these were lowered too much, if beyond what can be accomplished with merits already, I'm afraid we would be to powerful and suffer the evil nerf hammer.


If SE did some adjustments to at least #1 and #2 I'd be ok with it. While I do want some JA that are worth while #3 and #4 are less important than our ability to DD which is what gets us invites for content/parties.

An idea for 2 hour: Assassinate. You use it and it will enhance either your next SA or TA. The effect is different depending on which one you use next.

Sneak Attack
-Removes need to attack from behind
-Greatly increases the damage (let's say anywhere from triple to quintuple. Not sure what would be reasonable)
-Stuns the monster for a good 5~10 seconds

Trick Attack
-Doubles damage of your next TA (more modest than SA)
-Caps hate for the person you TA behind and locks it at max for 20~30 seconds.
-Allows your next Collaborator/Accomplice to absorb 99% of the target's enmity (just in case you accidentally f*ck up and plant hate on the wrong person).

EDIT: Just to clarify, I came up with these intending for all of these effects to still stack with a WS. So you'd do Assassinate + Assassin's Charge + Sneak Attack + Mandalic Stab or something and do like 6k damage.

Edited, Aug 3rd 2010 9:47pm by Seitekifu

There are a number of changes that SE could implement that would help greatly. However, I think the positional damage problem is the worst. You can't train players to position themselves. Most do not want to do it.

1. Positional Damage Sucks

The salvage group I run with has people constantly spinning around, often positioning themselves to be ready for the next enemy. I spend so much time running around that it's easy to lose focus of everything else that's going on. I look at other DD's and their weapon skills do as much as our stacked weapon skills do. The thing that narrows that gap is that we can also use SA and TA at other times... but we can't if people won't stand still, and really they're not going to. The whole "get in position and use SA and TA" in exp parties was fun, but that's not how the rest of the game works for events. The mechanics for parties changes endgame, therefore the mechanics for this type of damage should change as well. In exp parties, people put up with it because it's very easy to see the results, but not so easy to see in many endgame events.

2. No useful damage-dealing JA's apart from Subjob

So yeah, revert to the way things were originally with Sneak Attack.. that might be a good idea, or maybe just do something altogether to make it useful. Think about soloing on THF for a moment. You engage a mob, you need to dish out some more damage but you only have 67 TP. Hmm, maybe use a job ability? Oh wait, you can't! Your best bet is to hit the mob with a sleep bolt and then get behind it or do something crazy like summon a fellow and trick on them. Not very effective by any means and makes it an incredibly boring job (except for the danger of death part) to solo on.

3. TP Feeding monster

Dual-wielding, triple attack, double attack procs from gear, etc. Often I've been in a situation where others didn't want me to melee in fear of feeding a tougher boss too much TP. SE gave Subtle Blow to NIN and MNK and that made perfect sense. Perhaps they were going to go with an "eastern" themed trait which I'm also fine with... but then you gave the traits to DNC and that doesn't fit at all. It should be expected at this point that THF is going to be dual-wielding. Fine, you don't have to give us the Dual-Wield trait, but at least give us Suble Blow III or IV. It's not that much to ask.

4. Need a new Weapon Skill to Compete

Comparing my THF to NINs I know who put in a lot less effort... their Jins can do quite a bit in comparison to my STACKED weapon skills. Same goes for MNK. Heck, even my DNC with Saber Dance puts up some really nice Dancing Edges to compete. Give THF a really nice Weapon Skill in one of the upcoming patches. You can even give it to Dancers too, I won't complain too much about that. Give us something good though so when we do stack our weapon skills, it makes the numbers really jump out on the screen. Our auto-attacks yield such low damage in many encounters. The least we could ask for are some nice big spikes of damage.


If SE implements ALL of these changes, it still would only put THF up to par with some other DD's in my opinion, but that would be a significant upgrade. People should not have to view THF as a burden to a group.

Edited, Aug 4th 2010 1:42am by KarellenOfAsura

I have been trying not to reply to this thread, but I just can't do it anymore.

I consistently parse in the top 5 in all of the LS events that I parse. This includes zergs, einherjar, limbus, xp, and other events. Our DD potential is not limited by our job, more often than not, our DD potential is limited because we can't convince our LS that we need the same buffs. Sure, you wont parse comparable to the war that gets a brd and a cor and a dnc when you just have a brd. But given the same buffs, you should be able to be within spitting distance of a good DD on a parse.

I parsed 5th overall and 2nd on the boss of our last Einherjar Chamber (Non piercing weak boss). I even spent half the boss bound on the side so I couldn't even SA or TA. The person who beat me on the parse beat me by about 7%, but he had a cor and a dnc in his pt and I just had the brd 2hr buffs. I outparsed mnks, sams, and wars in this one parse. Again, these aren't slacker DDs, they were DDs that know what they are doing. I don't even have fully upgraded Kilas yet.

THF doesn't need anything to compete with other jobs in terms of DD. Sure, there are situations where THF DD is lackluster compared to other DDs, but really, you want to have full 100% utility, 100% of the time?

Yes our 2-hr sucks. There is almost no practical use for it. If you need it, you are probably just prolonging a wipe, not avoiding it. So I endorse a change there, but to say we need a damaging 2hr to compete with other jobs is not true.

Edit:


Yeah, I am liking the drop rate on everything in Abyssea enough that I have stopped even macroing my TK in. I do think though that a Magican Trial to make it a good DoT or WS weapon would be good though, I definately don't want to be macroing in a D28 weapon @99.

Edited, Aug 4th 2010 10:47am by Meldi

I'll say I'm skeptical of this is all, but of course I can't say you're wrong as: A.) You mentioned events with pretty standard mobs, not high DEF mobs. And B.) Even though I've outparsed a SAM, WAR or DRK in my LS I'm always relegated to "The short bus" party with 0 buffers so my experience of actually being allowed to DD (No sh*tty TH gear, no pulling) with equal buffs is rather... Limited.

EDIT:



I can't think of one instance in dynamis I couldn't have the same (Or better most of the time) effect using flee and maybe a pair of powder boots on the side. I really can only say honestly sac/log out on the SSR gears on the turtle floor is it, providing we don't get a fanatic's.. Yay for items performing miles better than our 2 hour!


Edited, Aug 4th 2010 2:04pm by ElvaanTHF

Oh no, I'm not saying your lying, I'm just a skeptical guy. As I've said, the only DD issue THF really has is on targets with high DEF for the most part. My LS just has this retarded setup thing going. Hell, half the DD in the "Main DD" party have told the @#%^ making the party I'd outDD some of the people they're giving buffs, but hey, stupid people are stupid; as I'm sure you know at least in some part, being a THF.

Which is what I believe most of us here are saying, barring high defense targets we're not bad given an equal playing field. That means given equal buffs and allowed to use our JA's as mentioned in Meldi's post. Now I'm somewhat wondering what it would take for people to place THF in equal standing of DD for their own perception. Surely we'd have to deal with *that* knife in areas where it's not feasible to macro it in/out. (Dyna, Limbus if you care about coins, etc, etc) but maybe allowing THF to have the 2H modifier while using daggers and an A+ skill? I'm really not sure. I still think TA could be solved reasonably by lower enmity. Hell, some of the retarded melee who refuse to put a THF in a buffed party simply because they're a THF might swap us in then. (Hey he hits harder on TA, less hate for me kinda deal)

Would a 2H modifier and A+ skill be enough/too much though? As an elvaan with fully merited STR gaining an A+ skill and the 2H modifier would give a gain of.. 26 attack total and 24 accuracy (Including both the 1H vs 2H mod difference and the 7 extra att, 6 extra acc from 7 more skill) That would be very nice and doesn't seem to overpowered, given our inferior armor choices and lack of Hasso, etc.


EDIT: Typo @.@

Edited, Aug 4th 2010 8:05pm by ElvaanTHF

We need reverse accomplice so that we may siphon hate out of someone give it to someone else.

Edited, Aug 5th 2010 6:41am by Lobivopis

I disagree slightly with one viewpoint in your statement. I never understood why people think THF's "Hate control" aspect warrants a inferior (By whatever degree, small or large) DD capability as other jobs. I always felt as though DD all had their primary DD aspect then a secondary "Niche" which barring THF (Until recently, BST also) included all DD jobs. You want stun, the ability to tank in a pinch? Grab a DRK? Want a DD who can set up constant SCs for your BLM and tank slightly? Grab a SAM? Want a DD who can first voke/tank in events where you don't need one of the weaker DD and tank jobs like PLD and NIN? Grab a WAR. THF is the only job who SE decided that our "Niche function" warranted a lack of inclusion into DD buffs. Kind of funny given THF's "Niche function" is the only one that is generally viewed as worthless for the past 4-5 years.

In that link I see 44 attempts, 14 stacked with DE, 30 solo attempts and 11 missis. You missed 36.67% of your solo sneak attack attempts and 25% of all of them.

You are a telented, dedicated, intelligent THF. Lesser THFs may fair worse.

We have different definitions of the word "acceptable". I find it unreasonable that even an experienced THF has to accept a sneak attack miss rate of at least 1 in 4. Especially in today's FFXI.

I mean kiting as in take something and run around, long pulls or otherwise taking a monster out of the picture for a while, not a kite+tank style.

I get what you are saying and i should have been more clear. We can do all those things and more on softer targets, not HNMs. In smaller group/easier mob situations ee can tank, kite(not tank+kite), DD, control hate very well (like 1 party type scenarios we really can manipulate the dynamics of a small group very well), use ranged DD and/or status bolts effectively, TH whore, feint, and all that other stuff. A war is still just a beatstick with voke. Bring it up to "hard" stuff and War is STILL a beatstick with voke. Thf looses ALL of that versatility except for Feint/TH and the occasional need for collaborater (very mob/group specific).

I didnt mean to say we could do all that on hard mobs, just that the job is inherently versatile. Much like the rdm of yor, but just a melee onry version. We can do everything other melees can do to some degree, but when you optimize in preperation for HNMs, Thf (like rdm before refresh and A+ enfeeble) is outclassed by the more specialized jobs in every way but TH/Feint and "hate control" and with hate control being virtually obselete, we are the TH/Feint whore husk of an otherwise beautiful job.

We need a thf update like rdm got that gives us a clear task to do during an HNM that is continuous that doesnt break us during the rest of the game where we are still very good. Not just stick TH then afk. That means more damage and make us DD+TH whore much like war is DD+voke, or give us some really good versatility that works effectively on large groups. We simply cant do enough single target hate manipulation to effect 18+ people. 6man parties our hate stuff ROCKS. 18...its a drop in the bucket. We need a large scale event task. DD or something else entirely. Just something.

Edited, Aug 5th 2010 5:05pm by Banalaty

Actually people want to be on equal footing as the other DD in areas where the game mechanics push us into a corner. You're saying asking for a DD buff on high DEF/level targets is futile because of something they might do in the future. Hell, you're logic on it is based off of, "They won't, but if they do, they'll buff others more." When there's no reason it couldn't be a, "They buff THF specifically once, and balance sh*t out so all melee are relatively effective with their own special niches" situation. Giving a DD buff is actually WAY more feasible. With the current hate system we're basically limited to removing hate of other's. DDs, tanks, mages can all hit the hate cap fairly easily, adding more to that means squat. Giving us provoke? What? :\

Go ahead and quote what anyone here said that said they wanted to be better than other DD's and you'll have my apology.

Also, your entire argument is that some job HAS to suck compared to the other's, what's that about?

Listen, this isn't complicated:

It is impossible for every job to be exactly equal; even among 2h jobs, SAMs get picked more than the rest. In MMOs full of mix-maxing players, there will be a pecking order, and someone will be at the bottom. If your argument is that the someone shouldn't be your job, then explain why some other job deserves to be at the bottom more than you do.

THF already has more non-DD utility than any other DD. So why does THF deserve to leapfrog another DD job?

edit:

This is the entire f'ing point.

Why are you insisting on more toys to compete for spots with other DDs, when you could be asking for more tools so that THEY can't compete with your utility?

Is your goal to be in the alliance, or to be near the top of the parse?

Edited, Aug 6th 2010 8:25am by redvenomweb