Forum Settings
       
« Previous 1 2 3 4 5 6
Reply To Thread

Time for a ChangeFollow

#1 Aug 01 2010 at 5:03 AM Rating: Good
***
1,064 posts
Continued from the Despoil Thread

It would be nice to create a unified petition for THF that all of us could agree on and send to SE. But it seems people have their own (often very different) specific solutions to the problems that Thief faces. Others don't agree on the problem(s).

As I see it, most of these issues are based on the opportunity for THF to deal damage. I have heard it said many times that THF is not a DD job by design. I disagree. I think it is a DD job based around a party dynamic that is no longer relevant

Many of our skills, abilities and traits are designed specifically for the purpose of DD. Sneak Attack, Trick attack, Triple Attack, Assassin, Critical Attack Bonus, Top tier DD daggers, Top Tier DD Armor, high dagger skill rating, and high damage potential weapon skills. Almost all of our Merits are DD oriented. Especially Category 2

In my opinion there are three areas that Thief needs fixing.

1. A damaging 2 hour ability.
This one has been admitted by SE and is overdue for a fix. It’s one of the fundamental reasons that every other DD job has more damage potential in many situations: In addition to their other bag of DD tricks, they can deal damage with their 2 hour. THF can’t.

I propose they do with us what they did with DRG: Put PD on a shorter timer and give us a damaging 2 hour ability.

That may sound extreme to some. But, Perfect Dodge isn’t that strong. It only lasts 30 seconds and doesn’t dodge ranged attacks or protect you from magic. I can already do what PD does…BETTER with Flee, shadows and a max evasion set.

With a damaging two hour, we can start to level the playing field with the other DD’s

2. The opportunity to deal damage to high defence targets.
I definitely think critical hits are the way to do it. It seems like SE does too. I like where they are going with the Critical Attack Bonus traits. We’ll have to see how they progress with levels. I can only hope we get the highest.

However, we also need a way boost to critical attack RATE. Either through job traits, better critical hit rate gear…something. THF needs to be able to meaningfully increase critical hit rate for it to be something that can compete. And we need to be able to do this without being forced to /war for fencer or sacrificing vital stats like Haste, ACC, ATT etc to do it.

3. The utility of Thief job abilities. This is two parts for me:
Sneak Attack and Trick Attack
THF’s main downfall is that using our fundamental damaging abilities requires an unreasonable level of cooperation that most groups aren't willing to cater to.

Many of today's FFXI events are not THF DD friendly because it is often most effective for the DD’s to burn TP at 100%, kill faster and bounce hate to mitigate damage between them. The mobs are constantly changing directions, making it difficult to land Sneak Attack consistently. In tankless TP burn parties, none of the DD’s WANT to be trick attacked. Maybe if they aren’t paying attention or don;t care you can land them, but a good portion of the DD’s I meet move out of the way when they see me ready trick attack behind them. This problem only gets worse the better your THF is. You're thinking "YEAH!! Check out that sick Trick Attack I just landed!" The other DD's are saying "Whoa! gtfo with that...I pull enough hate as it is. I don't want that on me!"

So, rather than lining up for a SATA line, making sure they don't turn the monster so the THF can land Sneak Attack, NOT jumping out of the way when they see a THF using trick attack behind them, or fulfilling any of the positional requirements that dealing damage as a THF requires, most DD will simply carry on like there was never a THF there. It is just more efficient for them to do so.

And why shouldn't they? Why should they have to sacrifice their own damage and efficiency, or take on the added risk of increased enmity, just so THF can do its DD job? This is quite a hindrance.

Further more, at the time I am typing this, I cannot remember the last time I was asked to come to an event that is actually tanked to use trick attack and help the tank keep hate. I didn’t see a THF trick attacking that RDM in their AV video!!

I propose that SE remove the positional REQUIREMENTS and create positional enhancements via job traits that cannot be subbed.

Sneak Attack: Your next attack will deal critical damage based on the same DEX formula that it is now. Same guaranteed Critical, same everything.

Instead of REQUIRING Sneak Attack to be performed behind a mob to land, performing it behind the mob will enhance it in some way. This enhancement could be: shedding a certain amount of enmity, or decreased enmity for the hit/WS, or even generating increased enmity so we can better use our evasive skills. It could even add a (not random <.<) status ailment . SE could really do a lot of things with this but make it a positional enhancement instead of a requirement.

Trick Attack: Your next attack will deal extra damage based on your AGL. Same guaranteed Critical, same everything. Instead of REQUIRING you to be behind a party member for it to land, it will transfer enmity only if performed behind a party member.

I’ve heard a few people say that removing the positional requirements would be “broken.” I strongly disagree with this. Specifically because it would not allow us to surpass our current potential at all. IF parties still worked like it was 2005 and tanks held hate for everything and no one TP burned anything, we would already be able to do this. The fact is, the game has evolved and THF has not. Our abilities are harder to land than is reasonable and often unwanted for their intended purpose.

With this change THF would put out consistent DD, but keep to the positional nature of the job to make use of the secondary enmity utility SE means us to have.

Thief Job Abilities like Aura Steal, Despoil, Steal, Mug etc.
Admittedly, this area is a sore spot for me. I have always been let down by Thiefesque abilities in FFXI.

I find that all of them have unreasonably long recast timers and unnecessarily low successes rates. I find that despoil and mug aren’t really worth using. I think that having aura steal attached to (item) steal is absurd, let alone only being usable every 5 minutes (with a chance to miss completely if the target has an item).

I have always wanted them to create steal categories akin to waltzes and sambas, have those groupings share recast timers and lower them to a max of 1 minute across the board (with some being less).

I mean, it is right there …make use of steal abilities as an offensive weapon. Steal TP, steal ACC, Steal Attack, Steal DEX, Steal Evasion, Steals that don’t take something but give a status ailment (Think Despoil…only useful) etc. There is no reason Thief shouldn’t utilize steal in battle. Especially since SE has made it very clear that our money making abilities are too dangerous to be made worth while.

Have three categories:

Money Makers
Steal, Mug, Item steal, Armor steal, Weapon steal (yeah I can dream)

Battle Related Steals
Despoil(not a random debuff), Steal Evasion, Steal ACC, Steal Attack, Steal DEX, etc.

Enmity Steals
Accomplice, Collaborator, An ability that redirects the enmity you stole to someone.

With this change, THF could supplement its DD with offensive steals while being able to retain and utilise its function as a THIEF.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I apologise this is so long. It seems I had a lot to say lol. This is not a "Hey guys lets send a petition in asking for all these things." Its more of a "Lets start a conversation about the possibility of agreeing on some of them" Maybe it isnt possible? But I'd like to try.

Edited, Aug 3rd 2010 7:51am by ThiefKiller
____________________________
Nebo
THF99/BRD99
#2 Aug 01 2010 at 11:16 AM Rating: Good
**
492 posts
Well said, signed.

(Inc poor steal abilities and none of the useful PD, SA, TA, DD-steal, etc things mentioned)
____________________________
THF on HNM attack in Binary. 10010110101
#3 Aug 01 2010 at 12:09 PM Rating: Good
Sage
***
1,252 posts
I'm on board as well.

To fix the damage thing, I've been toying around with the idea of adding an attack boost to the amount of enmity that we have, either gradually through normal enmity gain, or have a direct boost from using accomplice or collaborator. If the latter, could do something like 100 attack that lasts 2.5 min for accomplice and 50 attack that lasts 30 seconds for collaborator.

The sneak attack idea is actually pretty good. Kinda sounds like what they did with RNG (sweetspot) so won't be too overpowered.
____________________________
DNC: 90 THF: 90 RNG: Semi retired @90 RDM: Retired@75

lolblog: http://mithrasmemoirs.blogspot.com/
Elemental Magian Dagger Guide
Gearsets/etc
#4 Aug 01 2010 at 1:34 PM Rating: Excellent
Needs More Smut
******
21,262 posts
I'd say for a DD's "damage" 2 hour, a state equivalent to Berserk with 100% accuracy would serve us well. With 100% accuracy guaranteed even for a short duration (I'd say 60 seconds is reasonable), we could adjust our gear for a DD zerg, pop a pure +att food, and put out a lot more damage with that alone.
____________________________
FFXI: Catwho on Bismarck: Retired December 2014
Thayos wrote:
I can't understand anyone who skips the cutscenes of a Final Fantasy game. That's like going to Texas and not getting barbecue.

FFXIV: Katarh Mest and Taprara Rara on Lamia Server - Member of The Swarm
Curator of the XIV Wallpapers Tumblr and the XIV Fashion Tumblr
#5 Aug 01 2010 at 3:07 PM Rating: Good
****
7,094 posts
Kalisa wrote:
The sneak attack idea is actually pretty good. Kinda sounds like what they did with RNG (sweetspot) so won't be too overpowered.

The proper analogy to what they did with RNG would be to slightly lower the damage of SA when you are standing behind the mob, and to significantly lower the damage of SA (but still better than a melee attack) if you were standing anywhere else. Not exactly much of an upgrade

Personally, the best and easiest solution to SA/TA problems is: you maintain SA/TA status until you land a qualifying hit (like Feint). For example, you're behind the mob and you pop SA, but it turns right before you swing. That swing becomes a normal melee hit and SA stays up, so you can rotate around to the back of the mob (again) and get another shot. Same applies for TA if your trick buddy moves out of alignment. THF is one of the fastest attacking jobs in the game, so we shouldn't have to spend too much time spinning around.

The great thing about this solution is that it requires no strange or complex new changes that have to be balanced for SJ play; /THF can also have this upgrade with very little concern about outshining THF main.

Edited, Aug 1st 2010 2:08pm by redvenomweb
____________________________
Terraxia - RNG/COR/THF - Midgardsormr/Quetzalcoatl (boxed)
Viper Beam - ARC/CRP - Fabul
#6 Aug 01 2010 at 5:05 PM Rating: Good
**
492 posts
SA paired with Overwhelm says Hi.... Again.
____________________________
THF on HNM attack in Binary. 10010110101
#7 Aug 01 2010 at 6:37 PM Rating: Good
****
4,720 posts
Signed. Heavily agreed that PD should just be a regular ability. It's too late for AF/relics to enhance it, but there's room for it on new lv 99 merits and new gear along the way possibly.

Edited, Aug 1st 2010 7:37pm by Jevilwolf
____________________________
Reiterpallasch wrote:
Horst needs a 1 minute, 15 foot doom aura. Get in, get out, or @#%^ing die.
Calmus wrote:
...draining with sambas is kind of like you smack the thing and as you smack blood flies out... normally the blood would just you know fall and be red an what-not, but, with the samba your all whacked out and decide to drink the blood as it flys out. thus not adding MORE damage just taking more advantage of your damage. at least thats my take on it.
#8 Aug 01 2010 at 6:40 PM Rating: Good
***
1,064 posts
The only real issue I Have with the "Just Make SATA not wear off if you miss" solution, is that it still makes us reliant on (often reluctant) DD's to land trick attack on. By this point in our THF careers..I think we should have the choice. Whether we just need to deal damage, or whether we need to plant hate on someone else. The fact is, that 90% of the players we melee with DON'T WANT hate planted on them. I think this is a major issue when people consider whether or not to invite THF as a DD.
____________________________
Nebo
THF99/BRD99
#9 Aug 01 2010 at 9:24 PM Rating: Decent
****
7,094 posts
ElvaanTHF wrote:
SA paired with Overwhelm says Hi.... Again.

How is this relevant?

If they are in front of the mob for Overwhelm, SA will not be applied to the WS.
If they are in back of the mob for SA, Overwhelm will not be applied to the WS.

Letting SA stay on until it's actually used does not affect this dynamic at all.
____________________________
Terraxia - RNG/COR/THF - Midgardsormr/Quetzalcoatl (boxed)
Viper Beam - ARC/CRP - Fabul
#10 Aug 01 2010 at 9:26 PM Rating: Good
****
7,094 posts
ThiefKiller wrote:
The only real issue I Have with the "Just Make SATA not wear off if you miss" solution, is that it still makes us reliant on (often reluctant) DD's to land trick attack on. By this point in our THF careers..I think we should have the choice. Whether we just need to deal damage, or whether we need to plant hate on someone else. The fact is, that 90% of the players we melee with DON'T WANT hate planted on them. I think this is a major issue when people consider whether or not to invite THF as a DD.

Easily resolved: use Collaborator on someone after you TA them. Solo TA followed by -25% enmity will almost certainly leave them lower on the hate list than where they were before you TAed them.

Edited, Aug 1st 2010 8:27pm by redvenomweb
____________________________
Terraxia - RNG/COR/THF - Midgardsormr/Quetzalcoatl (boxed)
Viper Beam - ARC/CRP - Fabul
#11 Aug 02 2010 at 12:40 AM Rating: Good
***
1,064 posts
redvenomweb wrote:
Easily resolved: use Collaborator on someone after you TA them. Solo TA followed by -25% enmity will almost certainly leave them lower on the hate list than where they were before you TAed them.


I don't know if Collaborator easily resolves this. Sure you know you can steal that enmity from them...but what if you needed to use Accomplice? No Trick Attack for 5 minutes? Even if you spent time explaning how your enmity abilities work to other DD's....and were able to make them fully understand how they work...I seriously doubt it will stop people from dodging Trick Attack.

I just met a SAM yesterday (really great gear/had been playing since NA release etc) that still thought Trick Attack transferred all my enmity to him.

Maybe its just me. But I really feel that if THF is ever going to truly rise to the occasion and be percieved as a legit DD, it NEEDS to stop depending on other people to do it.
____________________________
Nebo
THF99/BRD99
#12 Aug 02 2010 at 12:50 AM Rating: Default
Thief's Knife
*****
15,054 posts
ThiefKiller wrote:


3. The utility of Thief job abilities. This is two parts for me:
Sneak Attack and Trick Attack
THF’s main downfall is that using our fundamental damaging abilities requires an unreasonable level of cooperation that most groups aren't willing to cater to.



Sneak Attack should be changed from the "all or nothing" way it works now to a "falloff" based DEX bonus where the further away from behind the mob you are the lower the DEX bonus is. Also it should always force a crit on the next hit no matter where you're standing. The SATA timers should also be cut in half.

An alternative might be to put a mini SA that just forces a crit regardless of position on the next hit on the same timer as SA. So SA still has a cooloff of 60 seconds while the new JA would have a cooloff of 20 seconds.
____________________________
Final Fantasy XI 12-14-11 Update wrote:
Adjust the resolution of menus.
The main screen resolution for "FINAL FANTASY XI" is dependent on the "Overlay Graphics Resolution" setting.
If the Overlay Graphics Resolution is set higher than the Menu Resolution, menus will be automatically resized.


I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#13 Aug 02 2010 at 7:05 AM Rating: Good
***
1,778 posts
I just came back to the game, ohh 2 months ago(after not logging on for a year and a half)? I just bought wings of the godess maybe three weeks ago and I just bought abyssea yesterday.

I was just ranting to an old friend that THF's SA/TA are an irrelevant set of abilities in a lot of situations these days. I was trying for the DEX/Acc's last trial some yesterday, and I noticed most of the thieves in the group rarely bothered trying to SA, and none used TA, including myself. I'm almost positive I was the only English native tongue in the 2 group alliance full of pretty much thieves and dancers. So even among the JP from what little I've seen, TA is not often used.

I was helping this same friend I had ranted to last night to kill some imps, and I found about the most use I've had for TA since I've been back. I TA WS'd the friend, who played rdm/dnc in the group, so he could wake up the other guy. And he couldn't move to tell me no!

Anyway, signed!
____________________________
Torzak of Carbuncle/Crushridge (I play both toons very casually now)
Elvaan Male/Tauren Male
99RDM/99MNK/99THF/90Druid
#14 Aug 02 2010 at 8:03 AM Rating: Excellent
***
2,270 posts
The "simplest" way to fix SA would be just change it back to how it used to be. Instead of behind the mobs, just NOT in front. If it was outside that frontal cone of mob vision SA would land. Side, back, anything BUT the front. This also removes the SA+Overwhelm issue as they become mutually exclusive.

I would just propose another trait like assassin buffed up TA for SA at say, lv75 thf (level doesnt matter long as its not subbable) that reverts SA effective aread to anything but frontal cone like the old days. This would let us pull off the oldschool fuidama or whatever it was spelled in which you can pull off a full SATA on the tank by moving just out of vision of the mob for SA, but still close enough to the tank to land TA.

This would upgrade thf by allowing it to plant hate BETTER than /thf (IE can full sata the main tank), while also allowing us to land SA much more often on spinning mobs. This also means Thf can perform their JAs on things with flail type moves by using SAWS etc on the side of a mob. As said above, adjusting the requirements for SA/TA wont change Thf DD potential, just actually let us meet that potential much more realistically.

This would really allow thf to do their job much more often without many of the issues that prevent it right now.
____________________________________________
I also really like the PD idea like drg. Remove PD as 2hour, stick it on a 20:00 timer and make it only last 15 sec. Give us a "real" 2hour that involves crits and hate manipulation. Much like drg 2hour steals wyvern stats+tp, gives 25% magic haste and gives each jump an additional effect and makes jumps not miss(jump=angon, high jump=remove mob TP, super=erases party member hate behind you) and also resets jump timers, could do something similar for thf.

For example maybe: (hypothetical buffs. Could be almost anythign)
*resets SA+TA+Steal+mug timers
*Enhanced eva (instead of stealing wyvern stats) by a significant amount or maybe even keep the PD effect
*SA= 2-3x dex boost (big damage buff), removes position reqs and guarantees crits for all hits while SA icon up(offhand+WS like mini mighty strikes for SAWS)
*TA= 2-3x agi boost (big damage buff) and transfers 2-3x enmity.
*Collaborator steals 50% hate instead of 25%
*Accomplic steals 100% hate instead of 50%
*Mug=additional stun effect (just like weapon bash or something)
*Steal= Absorb something. Maybe like feint, but absorbs all that eva. (could replace "enhanced eva" from earlier in list maybe)
*Hide=Works on anything (

Similar to spirit surge, it becomes a very very versatile 2hour. It has the option to pump out some nice spike damage, do some serious hate manipulation, be a temp last ditch tank (steal+absorb feint level eva paired with SAACWS), gives a secondary feint ability to "extend" normal feint but using it when feint wears off (much like Drg can double up using angon then 2hour+jump after it wears off to do the effect over again). Could also instead do some serious hate manipulation with SATAWS HUGE damage+enmity and steal most or all of someones hate. Stun, just lots of tools, but cant use all of them. Perhaps even just boost "next SA or TA used" so you ahve to choose between a big damage SA or a huge enmity+damage TA, but not get both (could still stack, but only 1st one used would get the buff, ie SA>TA>WS=dex boost and full crit. TA>SA>WS=craploads of enmity. Or could only use one. Eh nvm SA>TA would already give MONSTEROUS hate if paired with a critted WS.)

Could also use it "better" than PD for sacing etc by making hide work on anything, and just using our "mini" PD together.

Anyway, obviously any/all the details can be tweaked in effect or potency, but if SE gave me developer power for a day, this is the line of thinking I would go down. Just has OPTIONS. Thats what I like about the drg 2hour, it can be used for a LOT of different things in varying capacities because it has a lot of little-ish buffs/abilities you can combine in interesting ways (just make it JA haste instead of magic haste >_<).

Edit: Added hide works on anything and would remove the need for SA positional reqs to be temp removed. Simpler solution.

Edited, Aug 2nd 2010 11:05am by Banalaty
____________________________
Aanalaty, Mithra of San d'Oria
99Thf/99Drg/99Rng/95Pld/Secret Job 92
Bonecraft-100+3 7/29/08
Lu Shangs-5/28/08
Twashtar-90
Ryunohige-75: 1/7/2012
Mandau-75: 3/9/2012

Maat-1/1 Thf Meleed (pansies steal)
Some of mah gearz: http://www.ffxiah.com/player/Lakshmi/Aanalaty#item-sets
Join 'People Against The Heart Snatcher' and help put Thfs on the right P.A.T.H.S. today!
#15 Aug 02 2010 at 9:29 AM Rating: Decent
****
7,094 posts
ThiefKiller wrote:
I don't know if Collaborator easily resolves this. Sure you know you can steal that enmity from them...but what if you needed to use Accomplice?

You aren't using Accomplice in any situation where you are also tricking random DDs.

Quote:
Even if you spent time explaning how your enmity abilities work to other DD's....and were able to make them fully understand how they work...I seriously doubt it will stop people from dodging Trick Attack.

I just met a SAM yesterday (really great gear/had been playing since NA release etc) that still thought Trick Attack transferred all my enmity to him.

I don't think the game is going to be designed around dealing with party members who are actively trying to thwart you.
____________________________
Terraxia - RNG/COR/THF - Midgardsormr/Quetzalcoatl (boxed)
Viper Beam - ARC/CRP - Fabul
#16 Aug 02 2010 at 10:16 AM Rating: Good
***
2,418 posts
I don't feel comfortable using Trick Attack on anyone because it feels like I'm forcing them to tank when they're not wanting to. I don't make anyone to do anything they don't want to, especially if I can do it myself.
____________________________
Rank: Bastok 10, San d'Oria 10, Windurst 10
Completed: RoZ, CoP, ToAU, WotG, ACP, MKD, ASA
Profile
#17 Aug 02 2010 at 11:44 AM Rating: Decent
****
7,094 posts
NarelCaitsith wrote:
I don't feel comfortable using Trick Attack on anyone because it feels like I'm forcing them to tank when they're not wanting to. I don't make anyone to do anything they don't want to, especially if I can do it myself.

...which is why you use Collaborator on them after TAing them.
____________________________
Terraxia - RNG/COR/THF - Midgardsormr/Quetzalcoatl (boxed)
Viper Beam - ARC/CRP - Fabul
#18 Aug 02 2010 at 1:26 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
*
160 posts
Quote:
Sneak Attack should be changed from the "all or nothing" way it works now to a "falloff" based DEX bonus where the further away from behind the mob you are the lower the DEX bonus is. Also it should always force a crit on the next hit no matter where you're standing.


Seconded. Regular, forced crit while in front scaling up to the current SA from behind.

I'd also like to see double/triple attack procs fixed, so triple is checked first. It's not a big difference in our DoT, but it's always irked me.
____________________________
Desoo from Kujata
#19 Aug 02 2010 at 2:23 PM Rating: Excellent
***
2,270 posts
Quote:
Sneak Attack should be changed from the "all or nothing" way it works now to a "falloff" based DEX bonus where the further away from behind the mob you are the lower the DEX bonus is. Also it should always force a crit on the next hit no matter where you're standing.


At this stage in the game i still say, think bigger. Just reverse SA back to the original version in the game at release. SA works anywhere at full power so long as its not in the mobs frontal vision cone. Add this as an upgraded SA trait just like assassin upgraded TA at lv 60. Just make it lv 75 or whatever. Removes the SA+overwhelm issue as they are mutually exclusive, and doesnt require any fancy new formula for scaling the damage based on your angle from mobs face etc. Simple is better and, in this case, more effective too. Even in big events like einherjar, we wont have much problem landing SA if you have a 70% arc around the mob to land it in.

Also opens up the oldschool SATA on the tank facing the mob with careful positioning making thf far superior to DD/thf for hate planting. Seems an elegant solution the more I think about it. Fixes a lot of issues with a VERY simple change.
____________________________
Aanalaty, Mithra of San d'Oria
99Thf/99Drg/99Rng/95Pld/Secret Job 92
Bonecraft-100+3 7/29/08
Lu Shangs-5/28/08
Twashtar-90
Ryunohige-75: 1/7/2012
Mandau-75: 3/9/2012

Maat-1/1 Thf Meleed (pansies steal)
Some of mah gearz: http://www.ffxiah.com/player/Lakshmi/Aanalaty#item-sets
Join 'People Against The Heart Snatcher' and help put Thfs on the right P.A.T.H.S. today!
#20 Aug 02 2010 at 4:51 PM Rating: Decent
10 posts
I like the ideas being thrown around here, my 2 cents;
I've thought for a while THF could use a 'Stance' something akin to RNG's Velocity Shot, NIN's yonin/innin etc...
"Dagger Mastery" 5min JA 2hr duration
-lowers ranged att power and speed
-melee crit rate up
-chunk of subtle blow
-maybe some JA haste if ya wanna be nice

something like that, one of the bigger problems i find is even if your a kickass THF and doing great dammage to a mob, it's very 'dirty' giving the mob far more TP than say a WAR in the same ammount of damage to a monster. I very much like Critical hits as a way to help this, i think it fits very well into the THF persona (we really should be critical hit masters). And in the same Vein not having native subtle blow has always pained me, it's really an underrated abality, tho not typically worth gearing for.
#21 Aug 02 2010 at 8:25 PM Rating: Good
34 posts
I think I posted something very similar to this thread about 6 years ago.

I agree these changes would be for the better and we can keep dreaming. Maybe SE will give THF a SA that is multidirectional for our 99 job ability? Nah! Why would they give a lvl 99 THF something a lvl 15 THF had 7 years ago?
#22 Aug 03 2010 at 1:47 AM Rating: Good
Thief's Knife
*****
15,054 posts
Banalaty wrote:
Quote:
Sneak Attack should be changed from the "all or nothing" way it works now to a "falloff" based DEX bonus where the further away from behind the mob you are the lower the DEX bonus is. Also it should always force a crit on the next hit no matter where you're standing.


At this stage in the game i still say, think bigger. Just reverse SA back to the original version in the game at release. SA works anywhere at full power so long as its not in the mobs frontal vision cone. Add this as an upgraded SA trait just like assassin upgraded TA at lv 60. Just make it lv 75 or whatever. Removes the SA+overwhelm issue as they are mutually exclusive, and doesnt require any fancy new formula for scaling the damage based on your angle from mobs face etc. Simple is better and, in this case, more effective too. Even in big events like einherjar, we wont have much problem landing SA if you have a 70% arc around the mob to land it in.


It wouldn't fix the problem that a well equipped hasted THF gets TP way faster than he can SATA. They need too either lower the SA timer or add a new JA that forces a crit on the next hit (with no DEX bonus) that can be used more often than SA.

Also, hate control is simply not relevant in today's FFXI. Nobody, NOBODY says "we need a THF to plant hate" when they are setting up an event.

Edited, Aug 3rd 2010 4:53am by Lobivopis
____________________________
Final Fantasy XI 12-14-11 Update wrote:
Adjust the resolution of menus.
The main screen resolution for "FINAL FANTASY XI" is dependent on the "Overlay Graphics Resolution" setting.
If the Overlay Graphics Resolution is set higher than the Menu Resolution, menus will be automatically resized.


I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#23 Aug 03 2010 at 2:01 AM Rating: Decent
Thief's Knife
*****
15,054 posts
GreyBis wrote:
I like the ideas being thrown around here, my 2 cents;
I've thought for a while THF could use a 'Stance' something akin to RNG's Velocity Shot, NIN's yonin/innin etc...
"Dagger Mastery" 5min JA 2hr duration
-lowers ranged att power and speed
-melee crit rate up
-chunk of subtle blow
-maybe some JA haste if ya wanna be nice


May as well lower magic Attack and Accuracy while you are at it. Lowering ranged Attack and Speed would have zero negative effect on THF.

1H weapon delay -10% (also stacks with -delay from DW)
Accuracy+10%
Attack+15%
Evasion -30%
Defense -30%



Edited, Aug 3rd 2010 5:05am by Lobivopis
____________________________
Final Fantasy XI 12-14-11 Update wrote:
Adjust the resolution of menus.
The main screen resolution for "FINAL FANTASY XI" is dependent on the "Overlay Graphics Resolution" setting.
If the Overlay Graphics Resolution is set higher than the Menu Resolution, menus will be automatically resized.


I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#24 Aug 03 2010 at 2:21 AM Rating: Good
***
1,064 posts
Well it seems that at the most of us agree that Sneak Attack needs fixing...just not so much on the specific fix. Most of the ideas in this thread have been based around easing up on the positional requirements.

And I also see a few in agreement that Trick Attack is rarely used as anything other than a DD tool for THFs. DD's dont want it on them, tanks don't need it, groups putting together events do not ask for it.....ever.

RVW: I hear what you are saying but Collaborator is not a fix for Trick Attack Imo. Tying up collaborator just so you can use trick attack consistantly puts you in a bad spot if you actually NEED to use it to save a mage or take over tanking in a pinch. Collaborator also cannot steal hate from alliance members so it limits your potential Trick Attack partners considerably in alliance events (especially now that abyssea is all the rage). This can also potentially hider you DD output as well. Odds are good that if you are already doing your best to put out DD and so is the DD you just Trick Attacked, stealing 25% of their enmity is going to have you tanking for a bit, preventing you from using that Sneak Attack that is ready to go.

This is also not addressing the issue of people dodging you intentionally, or just moving around constantly for no apparent reason other than they don't like the position they engaged in. lol I see this A LOT in abyssea and other alliance events.

The basis of my arguement for removing positional requirements from Sneak Attack and Trick Attack is essentially this: THF has a harder time competing because we have to do our DD on everyone elses terms. Parties are not made like they were when THF was designed. THF is the only DD job I can think of whose core DD job abilities are very nearly unusuable when soloing or tanking.

It is unreasonable in today's FFXI to fulfill all these requirements just to DD almost as good as other DD jobs can. If we are going to break out of that we need to be able to do it on our own terms...no matter which way the mob decides to spin.

This is why I propose: don't let the position dictate the damage, let the position dictate secondary utility(enmity).

Edited, Aug 3rd 2010 5:20pm by ThiefKiller
____________________________
Nebo
THF99/BRD99
#25 Aug 03 2010 at 12:56 PM Rating: Good
*
54 posts
Some very good ideas everyone. I can tell a lot of you are putting real thought into this. My thoughts on what I've read so far.

1. Agree: Reduce or remove Thfs need for others to do damage. Let us do the damage SE wanted us to be able to do, but since others won't play along, with out them. Take SA back to the old days will increase our likelyhood of landing SA in party or alliance. Change TA so that people want a thf in the party because of it. Emnity is no longer the answer based on current game play.
2. Agree: Ability to deal better damage to high Def targets.
3. Agree: Make PD as a standard JA w/ some damage enhancing two hour to replace it.
4. Agree: Steal/Dispoil/Aura Steal need fixed. The OP had some cool thoughts on this.

5. Disagree: collaborator is not the fix for TA. The timers do not match for starters and I also agree it takes away the ability to help party members when it is really needed. Imagine the dead blm's... have pity on them! j/k
6. Disagree: Lowering SA/TA timers. I don't think we should be asking to overpower or out DD others. If these were lowered too much, if beyond what can be accomplished with merits already, I'm afraid we would be to powerful and suffer the evil nerf hammer.


If SE did some adjustments to at least #1 and #2 I'd be ok with it. While I do want some JA that are worth while #3 and #4 are less important than our ability to DD which is what gets us invites for content/parties.


____________________________
Sylph - Acidskie - Mithra - Bastok - Rank 9
Thf 79 / War 76 / Nin 51 / Bst 26 / Blm 20 / Mnk 16 / Rdm 9 / Whm 21 / Rng 2 / Smn 1 / Sam 1
Merits: Dagger 8/8, Crit 4/4, Triple Attack 5/5, Aura Steal 1/?, Ambush 1/?, & Feint 1/?
Woodworking (74) Fishing (82)
http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/profile.xml?74158
#26 Aug 03 2010 at 3:02 PM Rating: Good
Sage
***
1,252 posts
ya know, the more I think about it, I really don't like the idea of changing the positional aspect of SA/TA because it kinda takes away the fun and challenge of THF (IMO anyway). However I am agreeing with the lowering of the timers. Being able to always have SATA up when you WS will in itself give us a major damage boost. 30 second timers would be perfect. Not to say this would fix all our dmg problems though...
____________________________
DNC: 90 THF: 90 RNG: Semi retired @90 RDM: Retired@75

lolblog: http://mithrasmemoirs.blogspot.com/
Elemental Magian Dagger Guide
Gearsets/etc
« Previous 1 2 3 4 5 6
Reply To Thread

Colors Smileys Quote OriginalQuote Checked Help

 

Recent Visitors: 1 All times are in CDT
Anonymous Guests (1)