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Thf Crit buildFollow

#1 Jul 06 2010 at 5:27 PM Rating: Good
So Shamaya told me to make an account and post so I suppose shall.

So it had occurred to me that crit build for war had been rather fun and popular so why not try it out on the job with the highest DEX and attack speed.

The lack of Haidate and some other pieces hurts the hopes of this but I watched the patches for items that could make it a feasible build and noticed some rather decent possibilities w/o sacrificing almost any haste at the very least on birds. This is coming from a Mithra perspective so other races may have a bit more trouble, but I am even debating Dex merits with the addition of crit dmg boost at 78.

Thanks to the addition of Ocelot hands & Aurore feet, thf now has access to decent Dex/Haste combo items in those slots. Though painful to get, double Dex Kila make for an amazing Acc & Dex boost combined with a few other items my potential total will be 126Dex, more than enough for birds, maybe enough for some other mobs. Cavaros Mantle could even have a nice place in the build for Colibri or others.

I was hoping someone could share thoughts/math on the subject. You can have a detailed view of the build here: http://www.ffxiah.com/item_sets.php?id=92523

Here it is in text for you.

Main/Sub: Kila/Kila Dex12 Acc 24
Ranged: Lightning Bow+1 (lol I know)
Head: Turban/Anwig with Haste& Dex
Neck: Love Torque
L.Ear: Brutal
R.Ear: Suppa
Body: Mirke Acc10 & Dual Weild+3 or DW & Crit+3
Hands: Ocelot Gloves
L.ring Zilant Ring
R.Ring: Rajas
Back: Cuchulain's/Cavaros
Waist: V.Belt/Bullwhip
Legs: Skadi
Feet: Aurore

I base my stats off 75Thf/Nin, I am not 80 yet. Level sync will probably gimp the gear above 75 so bad that it would be a terrible build, but I'm hopeful.

Edit: Adding in cumulative suggestions for change from below posters for reader convenience. Please read their reasoning and more interesting comments on the usage of these gear alterations.

Melphina

head: Brisk mask and (maybe) acuben's helm
Back: Belenos' Mantle
Legs: Ocelot Trousers
Feet: Homam Gambrieras

------

2x thunder kila, bomblet
Brisk Mask, love torque, brutal, suppa
mirke (DW/acc), Ocelot's, Zilant, Rajas
Cuchulain's, V belt, Ocelot's trousers, Homam

------

the store tp build. Consider this

Thunder Kila, Fusetto (damage + 9, sTP + 8), bomblet
Brisk Mask, Love Torque, Brutal, Suppa
Mirke (3% dual wield, 4% sTP), Homam Manopolas, Ecphoria Ring, Rajas Ring
Belenos's Mantle, Goading belt, Skadi's Chausses, Homam Gambieras

Haste -- +17
Accuracy -- +54
Dual Wield -- + 8
sTP -- +37

=============================

Shamaya

Weapon: Twashtar, Auric Dagger, OAT Parazonium, X's, Fusetto
Ranged: fire bomblet
Head: Brisk Mask
Legs: Ocelot

============================

Combined

Weapon: Kila, Thwashtar, Auric, Parazonium, X's Fusetto
Ranged: Fire Bomblet/Lucky Coin
Head: Turban/Anwig with Haste& Dex/Brisk Mask
Neck: Love Torque
L.Ear: Brutal
R.Ear: Suppa
Body: Mirke Acc10 & Dual Weild+3 or DW & Crit+3/ Rapp Harness
Hands: Ocelot Gloves
L.ring Zilant Ring
R.Ring: Rajas
Back: Cuchulain's/Cavaros/Belenos
Waist: V.Belt/Bullwhip/Goading
Legs: Skadi/Ocelot
Feet: Aurore/Homam


Edited, Jul 22nd 2010 4:33pm by LeonstrifeAsura

Edited, Jul 22nd 2010 4:34pm by LeonstrifeAsura
#2 Jul 06 2010 at 5:33 PM Rating: Decent
Thief's Knife
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Haste build will still be better.
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I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#3 Jul 06 2010 at 5:36 PM Rating: Decent
How insightful, however this is a haste build combined with DEX. Anyone insane enough to use Rap harness on anything above DC is welcome to some Sushi with their Colibri. Though thanks to Kila x2 I could entertain the thought of using it.
#4 Jul 06 2010 at 11:08 PM Rating: Good
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I've also considered the concept of a critical hit build and my "ideal" build looks similar to yours. However there are a few pieces I would consider changing but am kind of unsure of some myself. First off fire bomblet hands down beats lightning bow even in a crit build because 6 attack is 2% average pDIF on every swing and its 2.5% hitrate stronger; and I would never sacrifice my ziska's and bolts for 3 dex. Secondly as ironic as it sounds 10 attack on mirke is just as good or very slightly better than 3% critical hit rate increase.

Now here are a few items I'm unsure of my thoughts in a criit build

head: Brisk mask and (maybe) acuben's helm
Back: Belenos' Mantle
Legs: Ocelot Trousers
Feet: Homam Gambrieras

Those items would be the possible changes I'd consider. The Homam and Ocelot's would be my first choice to change because once your dex goes over 50 from mobs agi your crit rate is capped so Homam >>> Aurore any time that happens. Furthermore the Ocelot's trousers are very nice and I get the feeling they're stronger than skadi's chausses (2% haste + 1 accuracy versus 7 STP and 5 attack. I really think haste wins). Now I DO agree the Ocelot Gloves could be better than the homam manopolas because you only lose 2 accuracy but stand to gain upwards of 4% crit rate without sacrificing any haste. When I saw them that was the first thing to cross my mind as well.

Now with that said, I want to throw out another fun concept for you... the store tp build. Consider this

Thunder Kila, Fusetto (damage + 9, sTP + 8), bomblet
Brisk Mask, Love Torque, Brutal, Suppa
Mirke (3% dual wield, 4% sTP), Homam Manopolas, Ecphoria Ring, Rajas Ring
Belenos's Mantle, Goading belt, Skadi's Chausses, Homam Gambieras

Haste -- +17
Accuracy -- +54
Dual Wield -- + 8
sTP -- +37

That would result in 6.4 tp/hit or 12.8 tp per round. It's an interesting concept because it could theoretically result in 7 round weaponskills instead of the more traditional 9-10 round bouts. Once again I'm not sure what to think of V belt and ocelot's, but with enough sTP you might be able to pull off some pretty cool stuff. If you could knock off two rounds between weaponskills that's a significant increase in performance and I think it would be worth the loss of 4% haste to do so. An additional downside is the Fusetto offhand not having any other secondary stats, but it's a fun thought nevertheless.

Food for thought Smiley: nod

Edited, Jul 7th 2010 7:11am by Melphina
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#5 Jul 07 2010 at 2:33 AM Rating: Good
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Yeah I think it's worth looking at how far the new gear could put our dex. Of course, with dex builds, I think it's really about taking a good TP-gain set and if it's not far from the crit cap, seeing what sacrifices have to be made for that last final stretch. Of course, a crit build doesn't become good until that last stretch of 10 dex until your total dex goes from 40 over the mob to 50. That is where you gain the biggest boost. 0->40 is a 5% boost in crit. 41-50 is 10%.

I think what's cool is that very few stats are sacrificed in the process of this. It should be noted, as Melphina noticed, that if we're talking G.Coli, this build is actually in the state of an accuracy surplus (I counted 125 dex as opposed to ffxiah showing 126). To cap crit on G.coli, you need 117 dex. That gives 8 dex to work to reduce and change into other stats. [i]In addition to that,/i] this is for a mithra with no +dex merits (Leon uses Str). So for mithras with dex merits (the recent dex gear could also affect the debate between dex and str merits), that gives not 8, but 14 points of dex that Leon could lower in this build in favor of other stats. And if we're talking level 80 (some of these items are above level 75), that'd bring the workable number up to 16.

I'd say change out one of the daggers for a new super-dagger. Maybe like Twashtar (lol), Auric Dagger, OAT Parazonium, X's, Fusetto, or just something else. Change lightning bow +1 to fire bomblet. Brisk Mask and Ocelot trousers are obvious improvements that do not affect the number of dex. We're left still with 7 dex surplus on G.Coli's. And **** we could even change the back to a cuchulain's mantle (which might be better for a dex build then belenos') and we'd be at 11. Even without adding cuchulain's mantle w could change to homam legs and still have a surplus 2 dex for TP build. A perfectly good haste/acc build with DW (mirke), atk, str, and nothing major sacrificed, still at capped 24% crit.

Of course, I don't think we'll be fighting g.coli much at 80. So if we were to keep the aurore feet and change cavaros to cuchulain's, we'd still be able to cap crit on mobs that have 78Agi.

It's just cool that its possible to get such high dex values (especially as a mithra with dex merits) w/ the new gear. There's even more incentive now with the crit dmg+ trait, (and maybe crit dmg+ gear?).
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#6 Jul 07 2010 at 2:39 AM Rating: Good
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To sum up how neat and nice it is, the only sacrifices the crit build makes is that you're using an accuracy dagger (generally accepted as a top-end dagger anyway), you're not using homam or dusk+1 (ocelot is almost as good), you're using zilant ring (which is almost as good as divisor but not so good as mars's ring), and that you're losing 1% haste and some accuracy from using aurore instead of homam feet.

Not that a lot of this gear is easy to get. But (for level 80 mithras with dex merits) if you don't have a divisor, mars's ring or dusk +1, and if you were going to use an accuracy dagger anyway, your only sacrifice is '5.5' accuracy. In return you get capped crit%.
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#7 Jul 07 2010 at 5:41 AM Rating: Good
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I've felt stronger and stronger about the possibility of a critical tp build for thief with the past two updates. The critical attack bonus is just icing on the cake to want to make it happen. The hardest judgment call in such a build is that of sacrificing haste/acc for dex when +50 dex over mobs agi is as far as you can push it. Consider this too

2x thunder kila, bomblet
Brisk Mask, love torque, brutal, suppa
mirke (DW/acc), Ocelot's, Zilant, Rajas
Cuchulain's, V belt, Ocelot's trousers, Homam

This is still an increase of 43 dex which results in 130 total dex for a dex merited mithra (freakin overkill on mobs with colibri type agility), and raises haste by 20% alongside the 8% dual wield but raises accuracy by an astonishing 86. At level 80 with recapped dagger skill and 86 accuracy in your tp build the option to eat meat is viable on a lot of mobs (and it keeps the dual wield/haste levels way up there). This is another possible variation of the critical build you've thrown out and adds max accuracy and meat into the equation. That would probably overkill accuracy needs on a lot of mobs and things like a different dagger or the acuben's helm can then be considered.

On that note, just one Thunder Kila overcompensates for the loss in accuracy from the acuben's helm. The Thunder Kila is one of the top end daggers in its own right and 6 dex is a nice added perk to weaponskill/sa mods. I really think the acuben's helm is a more viable tp choice now than it was last update because of this. Especially with all the other things you could consider changing. If I decided to scrap brisk mask in that example and throw in acuben's helm I'd end up with a tp set that added 70 accuracy, 22% haste, 8% dual wield, and still had a high level of dex to be effective with criticals. Pizza or meat are both viable considerations depending on mob strength so that's even more food for thought.

Edited, Jul 7th 2010 7:44am by Melphina
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#8 Jul 08 2010 at 11:48 AM Rating: Excellent
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I always liked the idea of crit builds, and they can be created, but the nail in the coffin for me has always been the same point. We dont know mob stats.

We know G colibri (Which are obselete if talking about post75 gear). We dont know hardly any of the stats of the hundreds of mobs in the game. We know jack about new mobs. And (as if it were possible to know less than 0%) we know even less about future mobs in later updates.

We can make various dex builds, but since it is entirely dependant on mob stats that we dont know, I just find it hard to give these builds much thought since its all guesswork at mob agi. Even with these builds, we have no idea what targets they will work well on. The soloution to make it usable is to go REALLY overboard on dex to make sure it works, but then you loose other stats unnecisarily. If you aim for something specific (like colibri builds) it is severly limited in appication.

I LIKE crit builds. I just dont find them functional in the slightest due to the above.

Further point, I will not be bending over backwards for specific builds at this point in the game because this state of the game is VERY temporary. Soon we will be 85. Then 90, 99 etc. Everything we pour our brains into right now will largely be changing in a few short months. For this reason, I will be going back to basics until we settle into 99 sticking with good ol haste/acc and minor analysis on dagger combos. THEN i will be all over situational/special/Oddball builds down the road.

Not to dissuade creativity or anything, but realistically, by the time anyone HAS this gear to try these new builds, the next update will be here with a slew of other new stuff.
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Edit:Also, just to point out the obvious, but the key to a dex build is Kilas. 2xKila will net you a big jumpstart on dex and actually give oyu enough acc to make the sacrifices in other gear that just didnt work before. Before kilas, Dex builds were the exclusive toys of the virtually perfectly geared endgame thf. Kilas have allowed anyone to get the acc they need without paying through the nose for HQ/rare gear.

Edited, Jul 8th 2010 1:51pm by Banalaty
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Aanalaty, Mithra of San d'Oria
99Thf/99Drg/99Rng/95Pld/Secret Job 92
Bonecraft-100+3 7/29/08
Lu Shangs-5/28/08
Twashtar-90
Ryunohige-75: 1/7/2012
Mandau-75: 3/9/2012

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Some of mah gearz: http://www.ffxiah.com/player/Lakshmi/Aanalaty#item-sets
Join 'People Against The Heart Snatcher' and help put Thfs on the right P.A.T.H.S. today!
#9 Jul 08 2010 at 3:43 PM Rating: Good
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we might not know mob stats to an exact amount, but we do know that mobs use level correction to be difficult, not high base stats. this can be seen from collibri and mamools to kirin. coupled with thieves' naturally high DEX, 2x thunder kilas, and other gear that we would normally wear that has DEX (mirke, love torque, rajas, etc) to make a usable crit build.

also, i'm glad we finally got a critical damage bonus trait, but is any one else bothered by all the new crit damage plus gear that ninja and monk are getting, but thieves have not?
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#10 Jul 08 2010 at 5:47 PM Rating: Good
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Not really. I believe I've begun to accept THF will never be balanced with the other jobs, so I would expect any other job would get more viable crit+ than us. </pessimism>

The friend of mine who predicted the despoil thing would share a timer with steal thinks we'll get buffed large degrees on the final update, I have begun to pray that he is a prophet.

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#11 Jul 09 2010 at 10:15 AM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
we might not know mob stats to an exact amount, but we do know that mobs use level correction to be difficult, not high base stats. this can be seen from collibri and mamools to kirin. coupled with thieves' naturally high DEX, 2x thunder kilas, and other gear that we would normally wear that has DEX (mirke, love torque, rajas, etc) to make a usable crit build.

also, i'm glad we finally got a critical damage bonus trait, but is any one else bothered by all the new crit damage plus gear that ninja and monk are getting, but thieves have not?


Colibri:Lv81-82: 67
MMJ Stabler:Lv81-83: 69
MMJ Blusterer:Lv81-83: 76
MMJ Lurker/Infil:Lv81-83: 96

(btw, this is all the stat info we have between MMJSP, Trolls, colibri. This is the entirety of our merit party stat info which isnt much)

I was hoping for some troll info as that would be a nice middle ground, but you see waht im getting at. even between rdm colibri and blm mamools is a 9 agi dif. Once you start to take other job types into account, mamools of the same level in the same camp have wildly varying stats (69-96). 146 dex? um no.

Obviously there are some applications for camps with single or few mob type/jobs. Specific HNMs etc. But I wouldnt be able to reccommend a dex build for general play when haste/acc builds work on basically everything. For me they will always be relegated to very situational builds.
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Apparently SE thinks that SA/TA are all the crit damage we need. I would have LOVED if they kept innin as a subbable JA as that would have basically done all that they had promised to do to thf.

Keep innin JA as sub.
Make innin only work when DW
Give thf (maybe dnc, NOT war) the crit damage trait.

Suddenly we have a ~30+% crit rate on HNMs from behind. Toss in crit damage trait (while NOT giving it to war or it would be edging towards OP), make innin only work while DW, bam we do a lot more damage on high level mobs. 1hander jobs in general get a much needed boost without toppling the great hasso. But SE just cant go for the simiple answers. They are going to beat around the bush with these updates in longwinded roundabout buffs that still wont get the jobs done -_-
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Aanalaty, Mithra of San d'Oria
99Thf/99Drg/99Rng/95Pld/Secret Job 92
Bonecraft-100+3 7/29/08
Lu Shangs-5/28/08
Twashtar-90
Ryunohige-75: 1/7/2012
Mandau-75: 3/9/2012

Maat-1/1 Thf Meleed (pansies steal)
Some of mah gearz: http://www.ffxiah.com/player/Lakshmi/Aanalaty#item-sets
Join 'People Against The Heart Snatcher' and help put Thfs on the right P.A.T.H.S. today!
#12 Jul 22 2010 at 2:16 PM Rating: Decent
I think the best part about these builds is that they are haste/acc builds and are still able to have capped haste and acc while maintaining a high theoretical crit rate on a number of mobs. Saying we can plan for things to come and attempt to improve is analogous to simply quitting FFXI and moving on to a new game for me. Sure Square could entirely revamp the battle system, monster statistics and stab thf in the face more than they already do, but I don't see expecting it as productive.

My main focus I suppose would be that I hope crit rate and dex can become a more central aspect of planning out equipment and strategies for top tier thieves in a way it was not previously. Not knowing monster stats is unimportant to me in general. Why? I have a parse. I can view a large amount of data pertaining to my use of any number of the above sets on any mob I so choose. If I just so happen to notice I am already at crit cap or below, I can easily adjust accordingly without knowing anything in regards to the monsters base stats. It's just fun for me to make gear sets for the jobs I like and try them out. Thank you all for your input, it was interesting and valuable.
#13 Jul 22 2010 at 2:19 PM Rating: Decent
Mel, your STP build suggestion is interesting and I enjoyed it thank you. I like STP as well and think if would be a fun thing to toy around with though I am still skeptical whether or not it could be better than traditional builds. At the very least it is an interesting option for my DNC/sam moreso than my thf due to the Store TP trait my sub provides and I will be looking into it for that very reason.

Edited, Jul 22nd 2010 4:20pm by LeonstrifeAsura
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