Kila vs TwashtarFollow

That's a good analysis of the Twashtar on DE. Could you do the same for Kila too?
And then after comparing WS numbers, you could also try comparing DoT and TP gain.
I'm having the same problem right now in choosing an offhand. ;/

Hello ^^ I taked all the information from this topic. Melphina and banalaty was analising the 38 Dmg Dagger
http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?fjob=10&mid=12702511852538882&page=1

I think Mandau Full finished from trial magian

Mandau 43 DMG 25 attack / Blau Dolch vs Mandau 43 DMG 25 attack / Kila 38 DMG 16 attack. 6 str

If is acu capped scenario. It will be very close duel. I go for the Mandau/Kila.

5 More base damage, 6 str, 3 attack more. And always have the 38 dmg no matter how many tp we have.

If Twashtar in a future have stats bonus. Well mandau/Twashtar with some attack or OAT. It can be the best combo in the game ^^.

Shamaya he didn't do any analyzing of anything at all. 90% of the OP is a blatent copy/paste of what banalaty and I wrote in this thread.

The numbers in the OP were just random numbers I pulled out of my head to emphasize how the damage formula works in an unrelated topic. They don't have any bearing on anything. I don't even know what the purpose of that OP is, but it doesn't have anything at all to do with the daggers being compared in the topic. Furthermore the thunder kiala is better than the flame kiala for most scenarios.

Thunder Kiala == 38 damage, 190 delay, 6 dexterity and 12 accuracy (combined 15 accuracy)

Flame Kiala == 38 damage, 190 delay, 6 strength and 16 attack (19 attack combined)

Would you trade 6 dex/19 attack for 6 str/15 accuracy? I know I wouldn't.


That whole OP is nothing more than blatent word for word plagiarism of the stuff Banalaty and I wrote in a thread unrelated to the daggers in the title. Twaster and Kiala have no relevance in those numbers whatsoever. In fact there isn't any thought in them at all. Click the thread I just linked to and see for yourself what's going on. It doesn't actually TELL us anything except what the OP wrote on the last few lines at the very bottom, IE his personal opinion that the kiala is a mini Mandau. The Op clearly has no understanding of dagger comparisons as well because the delay and base damage difference of 42/176 versus 38/190 is a huge factor alone. I don't know what the point of the OP is but I'm kind of mad it's worded in the way it is.

Edited, Jun 26th 2010 1:50pm by Melphina

If anything, the topic does make me wonder about the "golden standard" for math comparisons in the future. Greater pink birdie has been used for years now.

Not to defend him because you're right, but I was able to decipher right away from this OP he had taken it from another source, and I hadn't yet read the sources.
Seemed to me more like he didn't know how to do quote tags, and yes, he should have linked it, but the obvious change in grammar and speech style as well as him starting off saying stuff that didn't make sense unless you read the other topic he was referring to made it stand out to me anyway.

Still, DaNTeiL, take this as a lesson to always Link to another topic. You can quote within the same, but if trying to quote from another topic, you need to make sure it's linked. Please also read here if you need help on how to use tags like links, quotes, etc.

Im with noodles on this. For those of use with good acc sets and the advent of pizza, I cant imagine 2x acc dakini holding a candle to Twashtar/Parzonium (OAT). The DPS, TP gain AND WS damage of Twash/Para is OBSCENE over all others. It wins by a wide margin in every category. Acc can be found elsewhere. Base damage, speed, and OAT cant. Pizza haste builds are already long proven superior to more acc oriented gear+meat. (sans colibri eating food meat build which are pretty much moot at this point)

Im still putting my gil all in on Twash/Para for the new premier dagger set.

Edit: Also something we dont talk about much. There will be new content designed for higher levels where acc is needed as usual. However people will STILL be doing current content for a LONG time to chase some of the older but still good gear. This stuff wont need acc at all. Ive already done events this week as 80 thf and 80 drg. Hell today I went thf to Yilbegan. I needed only sushi OR an acc roll/song. Just one source of Racc boost and i was shooting yilbegan with Xbow and HITTING it at about 85-90 (eyeballed) hit rate with C+ skill on a hardcore HNM. And doing damage at that.

A VAST amount of the game will not need any acc at all in the future. Salvage/VNM/ZNM/Sky/Sea/Dynamis/limbus/virtually every mob currently in the game until now. Twash/Para is the OBVIOUS winner for all of this content. Pizza, new gear, 2min feint and all the other sources of acc up or eva down effects i cant vouch for dakinis as the superior weapons. They become situational at this stage of the game with SO MUCH content without acc issues and the rest covered by food/buffs/feint etc.

My 2c.

Edited, Jun 27th 2010 2:09am by Banalaty

Edited, Jun 27th 2010 2:11am by Banalaty

The game is currently at a point where the old mobs have become really easy and the new content is still pretty unexplored. Banalaty has been speaking correctly that a meat build sacrifices too much haste gear for accuracy gear to make it stronger than a hybrid pizza build. However he's also right when he says this



I believe the Twaster is a superior choice because it has an obscene DoT /tp return. I am choosing the two thunder Kiala's because it fits my playstyle best, not because I think it's the superior choice. Shamaya said he expects the twaster will require 50 drops from a difficult T3 abyssean NM in the twaster thread (I agree with this expectation) and the flame Kiala's still require 200 flan kills. I haven't been able to play very hardcore because of my job interfering. I have a 45 minute commute each way and my work hours are either 2:30-10:30 (evening) or 7-3 (morning) and the shifts can come in any order including evening followed by morning back to back. It's physical in nature so I'm often tired and when I log in I do so for shorter periods than I used to and don't accomplish very much (getting home at 11:30 and being up at 5 am is killer...I'm lucky if I get 4 hours sleep when that happens). My thief is still level 76 and I'm leveling it slowly with some close friends duo and trio style on trolls and weapons in ro meave (my current dakini trial is 200 arcana). I'm enjoying it though and they make for good company.

In my case I have chosen to work on the thunder branch of the kialas because they have a DoT rating that would allow me to eat meat while donning full haste on the old content where I will no longer need to eat pizza but previously the pizza/haste build would have been better. My dexterity with the two thunder daggers will be 117 so there's a good chance I can break into the sweet spot of 1/1 dex/crit rate ratio with that figure and the critical attack bonus is a nice perk; that and the secondary mods from 12 dex is still beneficial.

This is something I can work on with a slower pace than you guys will probably be going at and still see a return. I have just a basic social shell that probably won't be hitting the tough abyssean nms so I don't expect to complete the twaster even though I think it's a better dagger. Mandau, however, is something I can complete with some simple crafting and saving over a long enough period of time. That was always a matter of perseverance with slow and steady progress (it's just a simple fetch quest with expensive requirements). I'm working with the cards my life has dealt me and making the weapon choices I think are best for my situation. If I can eat meat and use full haste on old stuff but lose out on the new content somewhat then so be it, that's what I'll have to do. I still enjoy playing, and that's enough to keep me coming back for more.

Edited, Jun 27th 2010 10:43am by Melphina

I'm curiously wondering myself what kind of stats the higher level mobs are going to have. Accuracy is easy to find for the old game now so in order to make the future events challenging the mobs will have to have (theoretically) a huge evasion to dodge what we have now. I'm sure s-e has something up their sleeves. Accuracy food runs on percentile gains no less, so the more you have the more you get. If you have 300 accuracy then HQ pizza is only 33 accuracy increase, whereas if you have 400 accuracy hq pizza gives 44 accuracy, 5.5% hitrate more for the same food. That also makes me wonder about something I read in the version update notes

check this out

SE Wrote:


I don't believe anybody has tested this yet, but I have a feeling pizza and sushi just got their accuracy bonuses capped. If that's the case pizza may or may not be the end all food come future updates depending on what they may or may not have done here. Those words have me more concerned now than ever in light of the current discussion that accuracy food may have just been nerfed.

I have some final food for thought for you. S-E has taken to adding new armor that increases power dramatically but lowers accuracy. Aside from the Acubens helm last update there are a number of items in this update with large increases in damage stats with a penalty of accuracy. We don't know just WHAT s-e will be doing in the future, but I wouldn't count on us not having to worry about accuracy forever. We all know s-e, and being able to ignore accuracy like we can now is the kind of thing they like too change down the line (IE: It's too easy, lets make it harder). There are 19 more levels with 4 version updates to go yet, so the mechanics of the future are still very much up in the air.

Edited, Jun 27th 2010 11:30am by Melphina

I don't think I could have said it better myself. This is the perfect way to express my thoughts. I wonder what kind of haste/other new stats will be coming our way though. it is exciting to think about. Gear that lowers accuracy but increases damage potential is also an interesting thought, and I have a feeling s-e may be adding a lot more of this stuff in the levels to come. It kinda makes you wonder what's going to be released in the future. It's really cool tbh. I'm looking forward to it.

Glavoid is an Abyssea NM, I am told it drops something like 1-2 shells per kill. Pop item costs Cruor to purchase and (I think) a trophy from a lower tier NM)

Abyssea
Time consuming, but I've been keeping up with this thread for Abyssea information. I'm sure most of the stuff on Wiki will come from there. Abyssea is actually multi-faceted, and the NM systems in there are three-fold:

-VNM Type System
-Pop System
-Other

By other, I mean that there are just some time-spawn NM's roaming around. Well, there are a fair amount of these. I think there also might be lotto NM's.
To engage in the pop system, you generally have to go and farm a particular family of mobs until they drop the pop item. Find the ??? and trade, kill the NM that pops. That NM will either drop a pop item into your inventory (some of these you can actually sell on the AH) or will drop a key-item to be used as a pop item. Go to the next corresponding tier of ???'s in this fashion.
The VNM type system is essentially the same as in Vana'diel. You buy a clear abyssite from an abyssea NPC for 300 cruor. Rest, track down your mob, kill, hope to get a color conversion, and then procede to the next tier.


Weapon Selection
Thoughts on weapons... weapons.. hmm. This is such an important topic. For me, I'm thinking I would like to ideally go Mandau/Twashtar, unless the Aurik Dagger is really quite strong. Either that, or offhand the "Parazonium" or w/e (isn't that like, a genus of plankton?) OAT weapon now that it's been buffed again. I don't have the hots for the Str/Atk Kila so much. When accuracy is really needed, there's the Dex/Acc Kila. When it's not needed, there are options with higher base Dmg and lower delay. And generally I'd prefer those over Str/Atk.

But to truly be a specialist at a particular job class, I think there's a very good chance you're going to want multiple different types of weapons, just as we have multiple sets of armor and food. "sh*t is situational". This was true before and it will probably be true in the future. Truer, maybe.. as it seems like the number of viable weapon combinations may be increasing.

Truth is that prior to now, I did find what I felt to be solid uses for /blau, /X's, and /Ridill. Even Kraken Club, in my opinion, had/has a valid niche use in Nyzul Isle as a Mandau offhand.

To really know what's going to be best, now and in the future, we're going to also need to know about,
-How target mobs have changed, and
-How food has changed

I think the food thing is a very important point. It could any/all/none of the popular DD foods that've changed, for all we know.

My personal opinion is that Twashtar, Aurik Dagger, and the OAT Parazoum (sp) will have the most widespread application as the best weapons for a given task. I think at least one accuracy Kila would be very good to have, but I'm thinking that two might be overkill. I'm thinking that not only cuz of the level increase and how good just one of them is, but also because of how much incredible accuracy equipment they've recently added. For older content, I think you may often find yourself needing only one, if even, to cap accuracy. Without the need for pizza. And if you need extra accuracy, I'd sooner use pizza and a powerful dmg/delay option over heavy accuracy and meat. I have nothing solid back this up.. just speculation.

I started writing up a comparison for several mandau combinations, but I'm not sure if I'll actually finish it. One thing I'm concerned about is the fact that math comparisons are severely lacking in that they seem to almost always assume that you're engaged to something 100% of the time. The fact is, that is far from true, and with the element of JA timers ticking down when not engaged, I feel that certain weapon combinations are over/underestimated. For example, back in nyzul isle I tried Mandau/Kclub and it was surprisingly effective. I felt that traveling 20 seconds to find a mob just to have a 10-20 second fight, it was better for my damage to get TP really fast in that short fight and let out a huge mercy stroke; otherwise, my potential ja/ws dmg seems to go to waste.

On top of fight time vs afk time not being included in a lot of math writeups, I feel the math is really weak in that the pDif formulae are still not complete. And most writeups that the community has done have not involved JA/WS delay. For these factors mostly, and of course others, I think that in the future we should continue to use parsing along with math to make solid decisions on weapon/gear choices.

Sorry for the long post.

Edited, Jun 28th 2010 8:05am by Shamaya