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Daggers - TrialsFollow

#27 Jul 02 2010 at 8:15 AM Rating: Good
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Might as well use an Auric Dagger as that.


Speaking of this, has anyone discovered the method to obtain this yet? The version update was so massive I anticipate it will take a long time before everything is chronicled on the wiki. I haven't heard of the means to get the auric dagger yet so I'm curious to know if anyone else has.

Also I wanted to comment on this

Quote:
Noodles already knows my opinion on the settings chosen; bard songs, that is. I won't claim to be right especially since I find less and less reason to defend 'the math' these days anyway but I do have a rationale.


I haven't tried to do any large scale math comparisons for a while because I've come to the realization that it's too easy to overlook factors and make mistakes. It was Deadgye who first told me that you can't accurately compare two dagger setups "in full" and you should stick to individual portions which can be done. A piece of gear versus B piece of gear, or calculating tp per hit is easy, but in practice you're combining everything. TP gain (with many sub factors), sa/ta solo and stacked weaponskills (and timers), gear, food, weaponskill frequency, melee criticals, buffs/debuffs, average pDIF (and as shamaya said it overlooks things such as actual engage time versus downtime plus other possible mistakes).

I will continue to do math for things which can easily be mathed (smaller scale comparisons) but S-E has issued A LOT of gear now with so many stats it's impossible for me to say "this is better than that" anymore. I will always advocate intelligent play by using the knowledge we have of mechanics and I've been trying to get back to the basics a little bit.

--Don't sit on job timers for too long (especially sa/ta)
--Get your accuracy close to or at the cap by whatever means needed then look for other stats
--Haste returns exponential gains
--Some daggers and equipment are obviously weak whereas others are obviously stronger
--Weaponskilling twice at closer to 100% tp will be more effective than weaponskilling once at over 200% tp

etc etc etc. These are the tried and true universal constants which we know we can rely on. This knowledge of what is effective when playing the job is what I use when I'm playing anymore. I don't trust large scale maths to be fully accurate because there is too much that can be added to the equations to throw it off.

Edited, Jul 2nd 2010 10:20am by Melphina
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#28 Jul 02 2010 at 9:10 AM Rating: Decent
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Speaking of offhand daggers and mandau, I hear the Lv80 Mandau and the Lv75 one are seperate Dats, and thus theoretically you could Dual Wield them...
That's be pretty pimping!
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#29 Jul 02 2010 at 10:18 AM Rating: Good
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Speaking of offhand daggers and mandau, I hear the Lv80 Mandau and the Lv75 one are seperate Dats, and thus theoretically you could Dual Wield them...
That's be pretty pimping!


Mandau is still rare/ex so you can only have one at a time no matter which level weapon you're using. The different dats merely correspond to the different sets of stats from the magian's trials upgrade process.

Edited, Jul 2nd 2010 12:20pm by Melphina
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#30 Jul 02 2010 at 11:08 AM Rating: Good
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Mistress Melphina wrote:
I haven't tried to do any large scale math comparisons for a while because I've come to the realization that it's too easy to overlook factors and make mistakes.

And that's probably the biggest thing that swayed me from performing all those calculations and just going with my "gut feeling" based on an estimation of the math behind it all. Once you understand the math, you can use it to base your choices on as an estimation, but creating a psuedo-XI engine based only on the equations just doesn't work.

Also, hi. :P
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#31 Jul 02 2010 at 11:26 AM Rating: Good
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Also, hi. :P


Hi, it's been a while Chanchan. Good to see you around.
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#32 Jul 02 2010 at 2:12 PM Rating: Decent
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Mistress Melphina wrote:
Quote:
Speaking of offhand daggers and mandau, I hear the Lv80 Mandau and the Lv75 one are seperate Dats, and thus theoretically you could Dual Wield them...
That's be pretty pimping!


Mandau is still rare/ex so you can only have one at a time no matter which level weapon you're using.
Except they are different items and so their only similar factor is the name, and as we have no proof the Rare tags refers to the name and not the DAT, if they are different DATS, there is a possibility that the Lv75 and Lv80 Mandaus, as they have diferent dats, could be dual-wieldable.
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#33 Jul 02 2010 at 4:16 PM Rating: Good
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I'd have to agree, I wouldn't rule out the possibility that you could have both...

...the real question is...who in their right mind would take the risk of doing another relic weapon with the possibility of it not working?
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#34 Jul 02 2010 at 4:23 PM Rating: Good
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inb4 MIND **** picture of Mandau/Batardeau guy.

Seriously though, I hope the NMs for Twash are not as bad as they seem. The one that drops the items for GK apparently is a horrible fight (Full alliance of relic holders etc had issues around 80) and they dropped 2.. And if the NM has nothing else worthwhile (A la Verthandi/Orcus) I don't think I'll ever see Twashtar.. It is however a nice thing in one way, it's motivated me even more to finish my Mandau, as it's beginning to look like a better option for less work. Haha.
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#35 Jul 02 2010 at 6:06 PM Rating: Decent
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Mandau is less work? That is an interesting way to put it.

I don't consider 5000 killshots on EP monsters less work. And I did not even mention the first trail since that one is too weak. Also you will be doing even more of those next update. Think 2000 + 2500 monsters.

Edited, Jul 3rd 2010 2:08am by Breaze
#36 Jul 02 2010 at 8:42 PM Rating: Good
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The magian trials aren't really /that/ bad. They're just cruel and painful. An Empyrean weapon is still a lot easier to get than a relic or mythic. Especially since I'm sure you could offer gil for the r/ex items required for the weapon and still get it cheaper than a relic.
Surprised nobody else mentioned this, but you can't offhand a relic or mythic weapon and get the bonuses from it being in the offhand :( All you get is the base-damage/delay. It's unclear if the same will apply for Empyreans later, but my guess is probably.
With level cap increase, and once people find out how to stay in abyssia longer, and how to activate the "!!" weaknesses on abyssian monsters, and people figure out how to infuse atma to buff themselves in abyssia, I'm sure those mobs will become easier. And you might also be able to merc them.
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#37 Jul 02 2010 at 8:51 PM Rating: Good
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Obtaining a relic and upgrading it through the Magian quests while extremely time consuming is painful and time consuming but for me personally it will be easier. In fact, I started "really" working on my Mandau and my OAT Athame at around the same time, halfway through completing my dynamis dagger currently, and I'm 2/10 on Verthandi Eyes. On average it takes me 19 hours of farming to obtain a Verthandi pop and I've yet to get a group consistently to handle the fight, there's no interest for those I know and I could be mistaken but the close friends I have who would help for 0 incentive are BLM/THF/BLU, WHM/MNK, WHM, and SAM/COR, which last I checked, could not 4 man verthandi. Sure if you can consistently get a group to kill the NMs it's simple and probably takes nowhere near the time upgrading the relic trials do.

However, that isn't the case for me, sadly. :\

The Empyrean Weapons seem more out of reach than Verthandi as well, given they require more people, more items and a similar drop rate. The saving grace being of course they are not as hard to obtain pops for. Of course, in the future they will be more low man friendly as well. That being said, there's a fair chance even greater trials will be added to those which make me uneasy on focusing on that over Mandau as well.

tl;dr Yeah, for me Mandau would take less time/frustration and I do hope Empyrean Weapons are more feasible in the future.

EDIT: Oh, and I forgot to mention, @Shamaya; believe me I have tried purchasing some of the items required, however on Shiva, VNM shells are sparse and I can't seem to find a single one that actually kills Verthandi ever, really. The drops from the T3 VNms aren't exactly ah, equally desirable.

Edited, Jul 2nd 2010 10:53pm by ElvaanTHF
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#38 Jul 04 2010 at 1:09 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm suddenly curious about a dedicated Evisceration set.

Evis+10% Dmg Dagger Mainhand / X's Knife Offhand.

Wodner how it'd do...
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#39 Jul 04 2010 at 10:33 PM Rating: Good
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Fusetto/X's, with the new crit dmg+ body and back. Stack a dex, pop a feint.
http://robonosto.blogspot.com/2010/07/magian-weapons-mutli-attack-rate.html
^--This blog is really good. Looks like I was wrong about the 2-3x parazonium. Instead of it being almost 2 hits on average per round, it looks like it's about 1.7 instead.
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#40 Jul 05 2010 at 12:14 AM Rating: Good
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Noodles wrote:
I'm suddenly curious about a dedicated Evisceration set.

Evis+10% Dmg Dagger Mainhand / X's Knife Offhand.

Wodner how it'd do...


Next few limbus runs I'll be running parses of DE vs Evis along with gear sets I'm using for both. (Not to prove EV with that setup is better, but more so since we as THF have a better grasp of DE dmg on most mobs so it'll service as a nice baseline of comparison)

That being said, if nothing else, it's nice for e-peen and by eyeballing it seems to perform marginally better. (Eyeballing, key word, it could turn out I was drinking too much) but as an example of average EVs on the tiger/mandy/beetle/etc Temenos floor, they were performing nicely. 1.7-1.9kish on Mandies, 1.3-.15kish on other targets, while DE seemed to be doing slightly less. (Same discloser, no real parses yet, just loleyeballing)

I could say the one benefit of this if it even comes close to a DE spamming dagger setup is the ability to open/close darkness, which is under-rated. If we could keep them within the same DPS/WS dmg, that alone would edge it abit ahead for now until better setups are made more available.

http://s724.photobucket.com/albums/ww242/FFXI_User/?action=view&current=EV.jpg

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#41 Jul 05 2010 at 2:00 AM Rating: Good
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Shamaya wrote:
Fusetto/X's, with the new crit dmg+ body and back. Stack a dex, pop a feint.
http://robonosto.blogspot.com/2010/07/magian-weapons-mutli-attack-rate.html
^--This blog is really good. Looks like I was wrong about the 2-3x parazonium. Instead of it being almost 2 hits on average per round, it looks like it's about 1.7 instead.


My friend have completed the OA2-3 axe and he did some tests on it. I don't know how big was the sample size or any other detail, but he told me that he always hover around 1,6 attacks per round on every test with attack distribution roughly 55:30:15.

Edited, Jul 5th 2010 5:21am by Ozma
#42 Jul 05 2010 at 4:05 PM Rating: Default
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Mistress Melphina wrote:


Mandau is still rare/ex so you can only have one at a time no matter which level weapon you're using. The different dats merely correspond to the different sets of stats from the magian's trials upgrade process.

Edited, Jul 2nd 2010 12:20pm by Melphina


And you know this how?

The name is irrelevant, for all intents and purposes lvl 75 Mandau and lvl 80 Mandau are completely different items that just share the same name.

Edited, Jul 5th 2010 7:06pm by Lobivopis
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I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#43 Jul 05 2010 at 5:56 PM Rating: Excellent
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Lobivopis wrote:
Mistress Melphina wrote:


Mandau is still rare/ex so you can only have one at a time no matter which level weapon you're using. The different dats merely correspond to the different sets of stats from the magian's trials upgrade process.

Edited, Jul 2nd 2010 12:20pm by Melphina


And you know this how?

The name is irrelevant, for all intents and purposes lvl 75 Mandau and lvl 80 Mandau are completely different items that just share the same name.

Edited, Jul 5th 2010 7:06pm by Lobivopis


I'm going to assume a used KSNM99 orb has a different .DAT than an unused one given there has to be some trigger to not allowing a repop, yet you still can not hold a used and unused KSNM99 orb. That, however, could be erroneous on my part, but it would be a "safe" assumption, no?

Edited, Jul 5th 2010 7:56pm by ElvaanTHF
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#44 Jul 05 2010 at 5:57 PM Rating: Default
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If I had a few 100 mil to waste I'd definitely want to DW the Lv75 and 80 Mandaus, even if the 75 one is beaten by something else later, it would make the most totally epic town gear.


I gotta say though, SE failed hugely with the relic trials. Lv75 Mandau trials shouldn't have ended in a Lv80 Mandau, it should have ended in a Lv80 whitebox Mandau +1.
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#45 Jul 05 2010 at 10:37 PM Rating: Good
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I would love it if anyone knows of a situation where 2 different r/ex items with the same name can be held at once. Not that I know anyone who's actually tried upgrading a 1-2x and 2-3x weapon at once (has anyone?), but assuming you can't hold both at the same time when they have the same name, it's so lame.
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#46 Jul 06 2010 at 7:04 AM Rating: Good
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And you know this how?

The name is irrelevant, for all intents and purposes lvl 75 Mandau and lvl 80 Mandau are completely different items that just share the same name.


I don't believe the name is irrelevant. S-E based the equipment swap function around the item name. Holding 2 items with like names is a logistical error if you try and macro them for gear swaps (it happens all the time if you're holding multiple aug/ex items like trial weapons). Furthermore in the July 1 update notes S-E writes

Quote:
- An issue wherein the name of the newly added item "Dark Earring" was overlapping with an existing item has been addressed.


This is further proof an item name can matter to S-E's game mechanics.

Quote:

I'm going to assume a used KSNM99 orb has a different .DAT than an unused one given there has to be some trigger to not allowing a repop, yet you still can not hold a used and unused KSNM99 orb. That, however, could be erroneous on my part, but it would be a "safe" assumption, no?


I'm pretty sure the used orbs do have a separate .dat than the unused ones but both items share the same name and both items are rare/ex. It's logical that the rare function groups every .dat item with the same name together and only allows you to hold one instance within the entire group (this is actually very simple to program). The rare tag means you can only hold one single instance any item with a given name.

Edited, Jul 6th 2010 1:52pm by Melphina
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#47 Jul 06 2010 at 10:15 AM Rating: Decent
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Mistress Melphina wrote:
They made two items with the same name which is a logistical error because if a player had both of them in their inventory macroing them into gear swaps wouldn't work correctly.

This already happened (and continues to happen) any time you have more than one non-Rare item. The game is no more confused if I tried to macro in "Mandau" while having a LV75 and LV80 Mandau in my inventory than it is when I try to macro in "Ruby Earring" while having two Ruby Earrings in my inventory, even (and especially) if I have two different Ruby Earrings. This has always been an issue with augmented items from Tenshodo Coffer BCs.
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#48 Jul 06 2010 at 11:14 AM Rating: Good
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This already happened (and continues to happen) any time you have more than one non-Rare item.


I reworded that section of my previous post because it didn't convey my thoughts the way I wanted it to. I used the equipment swap function as an example of one instance where the item name can make a difference to respond to this

Quote:
The name is irrelevant, for all intents and purposes lvl 75 Mandau and lvl 80 Mandau are completely different items that just share the same name.


I didn't intend for the discussion to focus on the equip swap function itself but rather make the point that the item name is not irrelevant to game mechanics. I also brought up the Dark Earring as further proof that S-E considers item names to be important. Expanding upon this thought line the level 35 dark earring IS tagged as RARE whereas the level 76 earring is not. This is interesting because that was the only earring they changed in the July update. There is another set of earrings that share the same name

Aqua Earring -- level 49, +6 each water and fire resist
Aqua Earring -- Level 76, +2 mind, + 15 each water and fire resist

However neither of these earrings are RARE, and they did NOT modify the aqua earrings but they DID modify the Dark Earrings. Why is this? Remember when I said this?

I wrote:
Quote:
It's logical that the rare function groups every .dat item with the same name together and only allows you to hold one instance within the entire group (this is actually very simple to program).


The Dark Earring wasn't renamed so they made some other modification. I'm pretty sure they made an exception so that RARE function doesn't group the lvl 76 Dark earring together with the lvl 35 one. Of course I have no way to prove that but it's logical and makes sense to me. The KSNM 99 orb example is a good indication that the rare function serves more than one purpose (IE: grouping .dat items with like names together in addition to allowing you to hold only one within that group). Both the level 75 and the level 80 Mandau's are tagged RARE and they both have the same name. I can't PROVE that dual wielding Mandau's is impossible but my gut instinct tells me no. I'm extremely doubtful you can hold two of them despite them having different .dat files and different levels.

Edited, Jul 6th 2010 1:54pm by Melphina
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#49 Jul 06 2010 at 2:09 PM Rating: Decent
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Shamaya wrote:
I would love it if anyone knows of a situation where 2 different r/ex items with the same name can be held at once. Not that I know anyone who's actually tried upgrading a 1-2x and 2-3x weapon at once (has anyone?)
The OAT and OA2-3T weapons are the same weapon with different augments. And thus the same dat with different augments. That's where the two mandaus differ they are two different items with different base stats (befor augments) and thus theoretically could be DWed.

Melph wrote:
This is further proof an item name can matter to S-E's game mechanics.
The fact that they existed at the same time is proof it's possible to have two different Rare items with the same name, strengthening lobi and my's points.
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#50 Jul 06 2010 at 5:41 PM Rating: Decent
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Mistress Melphina wrote:
Quote:
This already happened (and continues to happen) any time you have more than one non-Rare item.


I reworded that section of my previous post because it didn't convey my thoughts the way I wanted it to. I used the equipment swap function as an example of one instance where the item name can make a difference to respond to this

Quote:
The name is irrelevant, for all intents and purposes lvl 75 Mandau and lvl 80 Mandau are completely different items that just share the same name.


I didn't intend for the discussion to focus on the equip swap function itself but rather make the point that the item name is not irrelevant to game mechanics. I also brought up the Dark Earring as further proof that S-E considers item names to be important. Expanding upon this thought line the level 35 dark earring IS tagged as RARE whereas the level 76 earring is not. This is interesting because that was the only earring they changed in the July update. There is another set of earrings that share the same name

Aqua Earring -- level 49, +6 each water and fire resist
Aqua Earring -- Level 76, +2 mind, + 15 each water and fire resist

However neither of these earrings are RARE, and they did NOT modify the aqua earrings but they DID modify the Dark Earrings. Why is this? Remember when I said this?

I wrote:
Quote:
It's logical that the rare function groups every .dat item with the same name together and only allows you to hold one instance within the entire group (this is actually very simple to program).


The Dark Earring wasn't renamed so they made some other modification. I'm pretty sure they made an exception so that RARE function doesn't group the lvl 76 Dark earring together with the lvl 35 one. Of course I have no way to prove that but it's logical and makes sense to me. The KSNM 99 orb example is a good indication that the rare function serves more than one purpose (IE: grouping .dat items with like names together in addition to allowing you to hold only one within that group). Both the level 75 and the level 80 Mandau's are tagged RARE and they both have the same name. I can't PROVE that dual wielding Mandau's is impossible but my gut instinct tells me no. I'm extremely doubtful you can hold two of them despite them having different .dat files and different levels.

Edited, Jul 6th 2010 1:54pm by Melphina


You can check if a used orb and a new orb are the same .dat rather than just guessing.
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I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#51 Jul 06 2010 at 9:12 PM Rating: Good
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The OAT and OA2-3T weapons are the same weapon with different augments. And thus the same dat with different augments. That's where the two mandaus differ they are two different items with different base stats (befor augments) and thus theoretically could be DWed.


That's a valid point and probably the easiest way to settle the discussion. The three different Parazonium's are all tagged as rare but augmented differently. If it is possible to dual wield two of them then dual wielding 2 Mandau's should also be possible. I actually want to be proven wrong on this and if that ends up being the case I'll eat my words. I'd LOVE to be able to dual wield Mandau's (even if I probably wouldn't ever see two myself) as that would be really really hot.

Quote:
The fact that they existed at the same time is proof it's possible to have two different Rare items with the same name, strengthening lobi and my's points.


I believe you're right. Your arguments have been stronger than mine have. I will concede my stance on the matter for now and wait to see if anything develops from this. I believe I may have been wrong. Man, if you really can dual wield two Mandau's that would be just... wow. Enough to make a person /drool.

Edited, Jul 6th 2010 11:13pm by Melphina
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