Forum Settings
       
« Previous 1 2 3
Reply To Thread

Daggers - TrialsFollow

#1 Jun 22 2010 at 8:18 AM Rating: Good
Sage
***
1,304 posts
Just kind of curious since I haven't been able to even log in yet. Anyone know what dagger trials they added? Did they build on the current trials? What existing daggers did they add if any? Any armor trials yet?
#2 Jun 22 2010 at 8:29 AM Rating: Good
***
2,270 posts
I havent looked too much, but i checked out the Athame OAT paths(and the lance ones. They follow the same pattern). They get new trials and they are:


Athame(low damageOAT)>1087/600 Dragon-Type=D 19, Del 2l1, OAT> 1098/450 Buffalo=D20, Del 211, OA 2-3 times

OR

Athame(low damageOAT)>1087/600 Dragon-Type=D 19, Del 2l1, OAT> 1099/30 Adze=D 41, Del 211, DA7%

______________________________
The 10 Verthandi path:


D31 OAT Athame>1095/10 Chukwa's Eggs=D32, Del 211, OAT> 1096/20 Cuelebre's horns=D33, Del211, OAT


Edited, Jun 22nd 2010 10:30am by Banalaty
___________________________________________________________
I also read that someone is getting 5hit rounds with the 'fixed' h2h OAT weapons so both fists work now instead of jsut main. (both versions high/low damage paths supposedly) while /war. Only saw one claim, but if its true i would like to see if we can triple on it as well. Would love if they were jailer type DA now. Also might need to check the DA rate once again too if the type of DA has been changed, rate may have as well.

Edited, Jun 22nd 2010 10:33am by Banalaty

Edited, Jun 22nd 2010 10:34am by Banalaty
____________________________
Aanalaty, Mithra of San d'Oria
99Thf/99Drg/99Rng/95Pld/Secret Job 92
Bonecraft-100+3 7/29/08
Lu Shangs-5/28/08
Twashtar-90
Ryunohige-75: 1/7/2012
Mandau-75: 3/9/2012

Maat-1/1 Thf Meleed (pansies steal)
Some of mah gearz: http://www.ffxiah.com/player/Lakshmi/Aanalaty#item-sets
Join 'People Against The Heart Snatcher' and help put Thfs on the right P.A.T.H.S. today!
#3 Jun 22 2010 at 8:33 AM Rating: Good
Sage
***
1,304 posts
Interesting, the low damage OA 2-3 times might actually be more attractive than the high damage OAT one depending on proc rate.
#4 Jun 22 2010 at 10:48 PM Rating: Good
Scholar
***
1,983 posts
I'll try to do some math on it if someone else doesn't get to it first. But unfortunately I highly doubt that any of these weapons now have jailer-style D.A. In the patch notes, they specifically said they were changing the Mnk hands and nothing else, and as you mentioned the change was simply to allow the mainhand to strike.
If anything, it's still gotta be a great skillchain TP-building weapon or something for lol /drk.

Not to mention a lot of other new weapons. Gonna have to really crank the math guns. What all are we looking at,

Mandau - 43/176, Attack+25
Vajra - 40/200, Enhances "Sneak Attack" & "Trick Attack" II (II!? >.>)
Twashtar - 42/176
Auric Dagger (not Magian I don't think) - 39/201, SubtleBlow+10, Enhances "Dual Wield" (+5%?)
Parazonium - 31/190, Occ. atk. twice (~45%)
'Athame' - 20/211, Atks. 2-3 times (Avg of 2x?)
'Athame' - 41/211, D.A.+7%
Kila (new Thunder Dakini) - 38/190, Dex+6 Acc+12

Anything cool I'm missing as far as DD daggers go?

Edited, Jun 23rd 2010 5:07am by Shamaya
____________________________
Shamaya, Asura
#5 Jun 23 2010 at 12:41 AM Rating: Good
***
2,270 posts
Quote:

Parazonium - 31/190, Occ. atk. twice (~45%)
Should be D 33/Del 211

Para has no additional delay, but its base delay IS 211 not 190 while base damage is 20+13 for 33, not 30. I was REALLY hoping it was though, that would have really sealed the deal on that one.

If i had to venture a guess (for non-relic/mythic owners) Im going to put my money on Twash/Paraz for my combo of choice with the new dakinis as a good alternative. (at least i HOPE its Paraz. I have put to much into a half done athame to have it be #2 damnit! :P)

Also side note:
Its probably entirely in my head (stupid eyeballing) but after i heard some jobs have reported an upgrade of existing traits that wasnt mentioned in the updates (AutoregenII on whm etc) theres speculation of other old traits getting upgrades like maybe atk/eva/acc etc. I went partyin on thf today (77 yay!) and i "felt" like i was Tripling a lot. This is probably just placebo HOPING we got an upgrade to triple attack trait, but Kparse is borked after update so nothing besides hopeful eyes watching TP returns and spike damage on WS. I dont trust my eyes, but i would LOVE to see a hidden little ninja gem in this update. More triple attaack would make my friggin day.

Edited, Jun 23rd 2010 2:53am by Banalaty
____________________________
Aanalaty, Mithra of San d'Oria
99Thf/99Drg/99Rng/95Pld/Secret Job 92
Bonecraft-100+3 7/29/08
Lu Shangs-5/28/08
Twashtar-90
Ryunohige-75: 1/7/2012
Mandau-75: 3/9/2012

Maat-1/1 Thf Meleed (pansies steal)
Some of mah gearz: http://www.ffxiah.com/player/Lakshmi/Aanalaty#item-sets
Join 'People Against The Heart Snatcher' and help put Thfs on the right P.A.T.H.S. today!
#6 Jun 23 2010 at 5:27 AM Rating: Good
***
3,777 posts
Quote:
This is probably just placebo HOPING we got an upgrade to triple attack trait, but Kparse is borked after update


Actually Kparser has already been updated with a version using the correct new Memloc. Download link is Here. You want version 1.5.8 .

Edited, Jun 23rd 2010 7:28am by Melphina
____________________________
[ffxisig]56619[/ffxisig]

There are 10 kinds of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.
#7 Jun 23 2010 at 5:55 AM Rating: Good
Scholar
***
1,983 posts
Fortunately, the Deadgye Test (-fStr, Ceremonial Knife, Hpemde) can be administered as we level and we can definitely test for possible T.A. upgrades ^.^
____________________________
Shamaya, Asura
#8 Jun 23 2010 at 10:05 AM Rating: Good
***
2,270 posts
Theres a post in the drg forums now claiming Acc bonus III trait at level 80 using the /check system on G colibri. No responses yet or confirmation by other players though.

More and more claims of updated old traits! Maybe we get more eva bonus and T.A.! /more excited!

lol thanks for the memloc, i actually found it late last night after my last post xD
____________________________
Aanalaty, Mithra of San d'Oria
99Thf/99Drg/99Rng/95Pld/Secret Job 92
Bonecraft-100+3 7/29/08
Lu Shangs-5/28/08
Twashtar-90
Ryunohige-75: 1/7/2012
Mandau-75: 3/9/2012

Maat-1/1 Thf Meleed (pansies steal)
Some of mah gearz: http://www.ffxiah.com/player/Lakshmi/Aanalaty#item-sets
Join 'People Against The Heart Snatcher' and help put Thfs on the right P.A.T.H.S. today!
#9 Jun 23 2010 at 10:08 AM Rating: Good
Sage
***
1,304 posts
Some cool things coming.

Has anyone done any testing on Critical Attack Bonus yet?

Looks like I will be upgrading my Dakinis to a fire Kila and a Thunder Kila, I may or may not do a second thunder Kila, I haven't decided yet. I will probably also start on a OA2-3 Athame and a Twashtar(horrible,horrible looks, might have to start .dat swapping).
#10 Jun 24 2010 at 11:20 PM Rating: Good
Scholar
***
1,983 posts
Fusetto, Lvl80 R/Ex - Trial 1133>1134>1135>1136 : DMG 37, Delay 186, Evis WS DMG+10%
(*゜―゜)
____________________________
Shamaya, Asura
#11 Jun 25 2010 at 4:39 AM Rating: Good
Sage
***
1,304 posts
The only problem sham is that the base damage of that dagger sucks. Compared to a fully upgraded Kila (STR or DEX), it loses due to the DOT and WS damage increases from both. The STR one will have 2-3 base damage higher plus on average +~0.053 to cRatio, and the dex one will have +2-3 base damage as well, with 6% higher hit rate. Not to mention Twashtar has a straight 5 base damage on it.
#12 Jun 25 2010 at 8:12 AM Rating: Decent
**
283 posts
Are the final two trials for the Thunder elemental dagger Lizards and then Golems? Just curious since thats what I have for my thunder polearm, and the previous 2 or 3 trials mirrored those of the dagger path.

If so, any recommendations for Golems. I'm not there yet, but that seems like a pretty awful trial.
#13 Jun 30 2010 at 9:17 AM Rating: Good
Scholar
***
1,983 posts
So this thread is more about Trials. There's the Kila vs Twashtar thread.
I just want to talk about which weapon combinations are currently the best and how close or far they are from one another. But I don't want to make a new thread.

I've been working on a new way (mathematical model) of comparing weapon combinations or DPS in general for thief. However, after many hours of brainstorming, researching new stuff, and calculating, I found that I cannot use what I came up with to produce any answers; it just doesn't work. It's just a step in the direction of maybe producing a better model. A better model than what? Than this,

Golden-Standard of Basic Dmg Comparisons
DPS = [(Melee Dmg->100TP)+WS-DMG] / (Time->100TP + jaPause)

This equation is actually pretty crude when applied to thief. For most other jobs, it works just fine. But when SA/TA come into play, especially when you start introducing other weaponskills into the mix like mercy stroke, it becomes much more complicated. And This formula I feel is too crude to really give us truly accurate comparisons. I'd love something better, but as far as I know there isn't really anything.

Settings used here were a level 80Mithra Thf/Nin with 5Str merits. Buffs being Marinara Pizza+1, Minuet4, Victory March, and haste spell. A TP set and an SA+WS set were chosen according to the "best gear-set list" brainstorming thread. I arbitrarily chose to use a colibri+1 as the enemy, with an arbitrary chosen 350def, 69vit, 69agi, at level 88.

I calculated tp/round, tp/sec, ws dmg, etc, etc. But it's just not shown here. For "ja pause", I used what we learned from the Dnc testing thread some months back.

What I got was,

Mandau/Twashtar
[1098.3+1376.5] / (20.833.. + 3) =
103.84dps
Mandau/Parazonium
(961.6 + 1364.7) / (19.417 + 3) =
103.77dps

I really don't think I did the math wrong. But of course I don't swear by this model anymore. As you can see Twashtar and Parazonium are roughly equal Mandau offhands by this model. Yet Parazonium only has 2 more base dmg and +1 more max fStr than the previous Athame, and we'd pretty much concluded that it was above S.Kukri, but inferior to Blau.

And I don't think people are really debating Twashtar being possibly worse than Blau. So if these numbers are correct and Parazonium came out equal as a Mandau offhand...
Of course, this is just for Mandau.


In my personal opinion, I think the tp gain of parazonium is understated. Meaning I think it should be better than shown here. Yet in my new model that I used, where I assumed 75% engage time and 25% wait time in between battles, the twashtar combo actually came ahead by 3%. I don't think this is because twashtar was just plain better, I think it's just cuz the model failed.

If anyone wants, I can post the many other lines of calculations in wordpad that supplement what you see up there. Or post the other model I was talking about. I'm gonna work on looking at some other combinations, but I don't think I'll write anything without Mandau in it.
____________________________
Shamaya, Asura
#14 Jun 30 2010 at 10:15 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
****
6,580 posts
Shamaya wrote:
Settings used here were a level 80Mithra Thf/Nin with 5Str merits. Buffs being Marinara Pizza+1, Minuet4, Victory March, and haste spell.
I'm not a fan of this. You should never be getting Min4/March2 unless you have 2 bards, and the other is giving min3/march1.
Marchx2 will always beat min/march.

That aside, stfu and get back to killing Jagils!
____________________________
[HTID]
DRG BRD TH4 RNG RDM75
Dragoon Equipment Guide
ArsDraconis wrote:
Ultima spends 10 whole seconds shouting "I'MA FIRIN MAH LAZER" like a 2004 valkurm melee waiting for SC
#15 Jun 30 2010 at 11:05 AM Rating: Decent
Sage
***
1,304 posts
I have seen you say this before Noodles, and I have seen people espouse it in my LS, but I am just not sure I buy into it. Has testing and or math actually proved this? As a thief, I am generally at about 1.000 cRatio even after I eat food on anything that matters, lower on NMs and such, so sacrificing 9% haste for 21% increased damage doesn't seem like it is that cut and dried. Granted, if I am in a pt with a bunch of wars/drks/drgs, sure, 2x haste makes sense, but I would think that you could show that it would be worth it in a pt of one handers like mnks and nins.

If someone wanted to do math, I would assume that a good thief would start from a base of about 15% Haste from gear, Haste spell and 1 March already from brd.
#16 Jun 30 2010 at 12:32 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
**
485 posts
A suggestion Shamaya: maybe instead of trying to create a complex equation. Why not go for a more easy to understand point-system for off-hand weapons? Like you did with the solo SA and TA gear. A point-system is not perfect either but it does help us to understand how to value certain items. Just like the solo SA and TA gear is not 100% perfect but it does give a good idea how to gear for solo SA and solo TA.

Most players on this forum understand there are just too many variables that can come into play when you DD on thf. It is nearly impossible for one person to put all this into a single equation. Try to make a few general assumptions and based on that give points for the best off-hand weapon.

Assumptions could be:
1. Burn type situation. Engaged 80-100% of the time.
2. Main hand mandau (since this is based on your setup)
3. 85% accuracy (including buffs)
4. ect.
5. ect.

Points should be given for base damage, delay (DPS) and stats of the off-hand weapon. I leave it up to you how to make a fair point distribution. But you did it well in the past with the solo SA and TA gear.

I admit this point-system is not perfect either but it should give the player a general idea what to look for in an off-hand weapon.

Edited, Jul 1st 2010 12:16am by Breaze
#17 Jun 30 2010 at 1:52 PM Rating: Default
Scholar
****
6,580 posts
Take a 350 def mob with Dia2, for around 310 Def, 7 levels higher than you - a reasonable example of a possible Lv80 exp mob. Your Attack with pizza should be about 400. The increase to cRatio, as you say, is about 21% (20.9 in this example).

21% Haste (Turban, Raparee, Dusk Gloves, Bravos, Swift, Homam leges - taken streight from your Profile) with 1 March (11%) and Spell (15%). Add 9% Haste from Advancing: 20.5% Increase.

Minuet 4 marginally beats Advancing March for you, a thief, by 0.4%.
It's highly unlikely your party is full of Dual Wielders.

So let's look at a 2Hander, who you are probably in a party of (Probably 2 of them in a 3DD party).
They will have closer to 450 Attack, Maybe 19% Haste (Turban, swift, haiadate, dusk, dusk/usu) or 18% (turban, homam x3, swift). The 9% Haste from march will be a boost of 25%or 24% against Minuet's 17.8 for a 450Att 2H.

Thats at least a 6% increase from using March1 over Minuet4 for your 2H party members.

Even if you have (for some reason) 3 DWers and 1 2H job, it's more beneficial for the overall killspeed for them to have March1 than for you three to have Min4, assuming you're all doing equal damage (which in it's self is unlikely as 2H jobs if played with the same skill and gear, have a strong advantage over a DWer and are likely doing the most damage anyway).


If you have a Corsair, then Min4 is only going to give a boost closer to 15.6%., significantly less than March1.
If you don't have a Cor, but have a Dnc, even with unmerited Haste Samba, March1 will give 23.1% boost, again, a decent amount more than Min4. If it's merited 10% samba, you're looking at 26.5%, about 5.5% stronger than Min4.


Minuet4 is only better than March1 if you:
Have a party with no 2H DDs.
Have no Cor.
Have no Dnc.

If you have at least one 2H DD, or you have a cor, or you have a dnc, then March1 will beat Min4.

And that, meldi, is why march1 is better. The better your party setup, the weaker Min4 becomes. If you have a weaker pt setup (read: only 1 brd), then Min4 will either be marginally better for you, or equal March1 (depending on your gear, again, the better your gear, the stronger March1 becomes). However, even if it's better for you, asking for it to increase your damage by at the MOST 0.5% is selfish if you're decreasing the damage output of any 2H DD you have by as much as 5%.

March/Min is bad. March/March is better in almost all situations. The only time it isn't is when you have only one bard, no dnc or cor, you're all eating pizza/sushi (if you eat meat, and I know for a fact you like your YCBs, minuet is again weakened) and your DDs are only DW/H2H jobs (Bst, Pup, Mnk, Nin, Thf, Pld. Not Dnc, if you have a Dnc, March is again better) THEN Min/March will win.

The chance of you getting in a PT with only pld/bst/pup/mnk/nin/thf as the other DDs, and having a bard at all (read: them not disbanding for being with such a lol job selection), is rare.

Edited, Jun 30th 2010 7:57pm by Noodles
____________________________
[HTID]
DRG BRD TH4 RNG RDM75
Dragoon Equipment Guide
ArsDraconis wrote:
Ultima spends 10 whole seconds shouting "I'MA FIRIN MAH LAZER" like a 2004 valkurm melee waiting for SC
#18 Jul 01 2010 at 11:13 AM Rating: Good
Scholar
***
1,983 posts
Noodles already knows my opinion on the settings chosen; bard songs, that is. I won't claim to be right especially since I find less and less reason to defend 'the math' these days anyway but I do have a rationale. The reason is because I wanted to choose a "medium" ground for the comparison. Well I chose Mandau and perfect gear for the settings because I feel I can / want to obtain that (see how selfish my intentions are?).
But I know that after one obtains such gear, I'm sure they won't log in their mog houses every day with double march, pizza, corsair's and exp roll, haste spell, and perhaps a haste samba--and have those effects on them everywhere they go until they log out. Nay, there will only be some percentage of time where they're under those conditions. In defense of choosing single march, it'd be for the middle ground in between double march parties, and no bard situations, and situations where you've got a bard but you have other DD's who want or need other songs (IE sams who have x-hit builds and want their minuet, mediocre 1h dd's who want/need a madrigal).
Of course, if I had it my way, I'd always go 2xMarch whenever possible. I agree that it's much more often than not the best choice.


Breaze, I appreciate your suggestion. That is a good idea and I wish I could do that. I'm glad some people have been able to put the sa/ta rankings to use but ehh.. Truth is, I was only able to create those numbers because I had at great (great) length come up with a formula that is actually in my opinion very accurate. If you look at how many variables are in the formula though and how long it is, yeah it was no cakewalk.

Assuming that "the" DPS formula for thief could be found, I suppose it is possible that general values could be given to various stats. But in my opinion, it'd be a lot more situational than for SA/TA. So much so that with all the interdependent variables, I think such a stat list would be a lot less valuable for dagger combos than it would be for something like SA/TA or WS. Your daggers play a role in every bit of damage you do as a thief. But your WS set is of no relation to your TA set or your TP gain set. Because there aren't these interdependent variables, stuff like WS dmg is incredibly easy to calculate in comparison.

*****

Did another dagger combo. This time Mandau/2-3xParazonium. I'm pretty surprised at the result. Makes me doubt applying this formula to thief even more. In reality since I think tp gain for mandau thieves is understated rather than overstated (as commonly thought), the strength of this dagger combo should be even higher than shown here I would..think. But I find it hard to believe at the moment that it would be as good or better than the other two combinations above. Either way:


#3 Parazonium 2-3x
4.9tp/hit
Swing vol (2-3)
If like ridill, it's 30/50/20. Apparently on ridill's wiki page, it's showing that the trait procs before the weapon. I'm not so sure this is true, but might as well use it.
Out of a 100hits, we have 5 double attacks and 19 triple attacks. So what remains to be multi procced on? 5 hits taken, so that brings us down to 95. 10% of that can be tripled. Subtract that, and we have 85.5 hits that Parazonium can function on.
Triple=0.855*20%rate=17.1//+9.5=26.6
Double=0.855*50%=42.75//+5=47.75
Single=0.855*30%=25.65
25.65attacks + 47.75*2 + 26.6*3 = 200.95 hits out of 100. 2.0095 multiplier.

So 4.9tp/hit*(1.24 + 2.0095) =avg 15.9tp/round
delay = 297. tp/delay = 0.0535, *60 =
3.21 tp/sec. Adjust = 3.21*1/0.52*0.95
=5.864 adjusted tp/sec

time->100
17.053sec ->100

Dmg->100
100/15.9 * 118.5 = 745.3dmg->100
Dmg/Round = 66.1 + 52.4 = 118.5d/round
(Main +fStr)*Multiproc*Acc%*(pDif*non-crit% + pDif+1*crit%) +
(Off +fStr)*Multiproc*Acc%*(pDif*non-crit% + pDif+1*crit%)
(43 + 2)*1.24*0.95*([1.129*0.882 + 2.129*0.118]=1.247) +
(20 + 2)*2.0095*0.95*1.247

SA+WS
({(43bD + 12fStr + f[0.83 * f(0.6*129)]WSC)*3.0fTP + 127dex} *1hit *2.19pDif*1.15crit
+{(43bD + 12fStr + f[0.83 * f(0.6*129)]WSC)*1.0fTP} *0.24hit *1.19pDif*0.8acc
+{(20bD + 10fStr + f[0.83 * f(0.6*129)]WSC)*1.0fTP} *1.24hit *1.19pDif*0.8acc)
= 1211.4 + 27.0 + 109.8 = 1348.2


(745.3 + 1348.2) / (17.053 + 3) = 104.4dps
____________________________
Shamaya, Asura
#19 Jul 01 2010 at 3:56 PM Rating: Decent
Thief's Knife
*****
15,053 posts
Banalaty wrote:
Theres a post in the drg forums now claiming Acc bonus III trait at level 80 using the /check system on G colibri. No responses yet or confirmation by other players though.

More and more claims of updated old traits! Maybe we get more eva bonus and T.A.! /more excited!

lol thanks for the memloc, i actually found it late last night after my last post xD


DRK gets more Attack Bonus also.

Edited, Jul 1st 2010 6:57pm by Lobivopis
____________________________
Final Fantasy XI 12-14-11 Update wrote:
Adjust the resolution of menus.
The main screen resolution for "FINAL FANTASY XI" is dependent on the "Overlay Graphics Resolution" setting.
If the Overlay Graphics Resolution is set higher than the Menu Resolution, menus will be automatically resized.


I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#20 Jul 01 2010 at 4:07 PM Rating: Decent
Thief's Knife
*****
15,053 posts
Quote:
In my personal opinion, I think the tp gain of parazonium is understated. Meaning I think it should be better than shown here. Yet in my new model that I used, where I assumed 75% engage time and 25% wait time in between battles, the twashtar combo actually came ahead by 3%. I don't think this is because twashtar was just plain better, I think it's just cuz the model failed.


Unless they lower the SATA timers more TP is irrelevant when you have Mercy Stroke because you're going to be sitting on it waiting for the next timer to come up anyway.

Also Twashtar will likely have additional stats added at some point while the OAT path will likely always be OAT and nothing else.


Edited, Jul 1st 2010 7:40pm by Lobivopis
____________________________
Final Fantasy XI 12-14-11 Update wrote:
Adjust the resolution of menus.
The main screen resolution for "FINAL FANTASY XI" is dependent on the "Overlay Graphics Resolution" setting.
If the Overlay Graphics Resolution is set higher than the Menu Resolution, menus will be automatically resized.


I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#21 Jul 01 2010 at 5:03 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
**
485 posts
Lobi wrote:
Also Twashtar will likely have additional stats added at some point

The million dollar question will be: Will those additional stats on Twashtar work in your off-hand? Or will SE nerf it just like they did for relic and mythic off-hand.

I am wondering if the dagger just before Twashtar is worth using as off-hand? It is a Kartika with +6 base dmg. So: DMG: 39 Delay: 201. Just to compare Perseus's Harpe is DMG: 37 Delay: 210.

I am asking since nobody is getting 50 Glavoid Shells anytime soon.

Edited, Jul 2nd 2010 1:21am by Breaze
#22 Jul 01 2010 at 6:00 PM Rating: Good
Sage
***
1,304 posts
In that case Breaze, probably want either Kila with STR or DEX

Twastar -1= 39 DMG, 201 Delay
Fire Kila = 38 DMG, 190 Delay +6 STR +16 atk
Thunder Kila = 38 DMG 190 Delay +6 DEX +12 acc
#23 Jul 01 2010 at 8:27 PM Rating: Good
**
269 posts
Add auric dagger to the list of alternatives there, when we figure out where it comes from

dmg 39 delay 201 subtle blow +10 "enhances dual wield"

Also, what are the thoughts on fully upgraded athame? (either the oat2-3 or oat path) See very little discussion on them.
____________________________
Wolfheart 80 THF, DRK, MNK but not bard. No, no I didn't level bard.
Phoenix server.
( ')> Shadow Duck approves of this message.
#24 Jul 01 2010 at 9:56 PM Rating: Good
Scholar
***
1,983 posts
Yeah I know, Lobi, that the basic philosophy of Mandau is that TP gain isn't a problem because you're "bound by your timers anyway" and that Mandau is easy to play because you "really don't have to do anything unstacked." But very often neither of these things are true.

Here's my reason to question this.
Let's say, in whatever battle situation you're in, you're engaged 100% of the time and can freely SA/TA. If you look at my Mandau/Twashtar results up there, you'll see that with the settings I chose (95% acc, DW2, suppa, mirke wardecors DW3%, 22% gearhaste, 6sTP, 1march, haste spell, brutal, triple merits, 5 SA merits), 0->100TP (I chose to have WS return and TP overflow cancel each other out) is reached in ~20.8 seconds on average. Then add the 3 seconds required for JA pause to this (unless you kill the mob w/ the WS, which I didn't consider) and you get a theoretical 23.8 seconds required per WS cycle. Now, your 2 JA timers averaged together are 55 seconds. Divide that by two and you can stack a WS every 27.5 seconds. According to that, you're gaining TP in surplus. This turns out to be the case when zerging einherjar bosses, where TP gain is even faster too.

But, the error I was thinking, was that this assumes you are engaged 100% of the time. That is definitely not the case. Usually the problem I have in any decent party is that I'm not gaining TP fast enough. Mobs just die way too fast and the bard doesn't, or can't, pull fast enough to keep up. And too many other bards just don't think fast enough to pull alternative mobs (more skoffin, mobs from other camp, mamool ja from middle bird camp, wivres).

But, it is obvious that engage time is not 100%. That's why for my attempt at a new damage analysis (not shown here), I chose to go with an average engage time of 75%. Much more realistic. So now, if you take the previous TP gain of Twashtar, 20.8seconds, and divide it by 0.75, you get ~27.73 seconds required for TP. Add 3secs of JA pause in there per WS and it brings it up to 30.73. Now you are no longer out-tp'ing your timers, but rather you are sitting on them.

I think the problem might be even worse though. Even if you consider 75% engage time as a rule instead of 100%, this still doesn't take a lot of factors into account that play a major role. One thing is mob overkill. I don't know about you, but when the mob is at lower HP's I don't mercy stroke. I'll usually wait for the next mob. While this builds a TP surplus if I'm sitting on top of 100% TP when the mob is at 20% hp and I'm waiting for it to die (I could have used less TP gain then, right?). This happens alllllll the time. Sometimes, if I had only gotten TP sooner, I could have WS'ed sooner in the fight and wouldn't have needed to build excess TP. Other times, this only happens because my JA didn't come up fast enough. Then there's times where you can't SA+WS because you have hate, which makes your TP gain relatively less important. There's also the usual building over 100TP because as you're trying to WS the mobs and people around it are moving. While this is happening your TP is building up, one JA is already at 0, but the next JA is already ticking down. So when you finally do WS, you'll have less time than before to catch your tp up to your next JA.


I think TP gain is on the other hand not as much a big deal when you don't have Mandau in a burn party. It seems so much easier for me at least, to make sense of it. If you don't stack your WS, it's no problem. You don't really have to worry so much about syncing your timers. If they sync, great; if they don't, no problem.

Now that I think about it, the formula I used above assumes 100% engage time but it also assumes you can JA+WS every time you have TP. So maybe it doesn't really understate TP gain as I had thought, actually...
____________________________
Shamaya, Asura
#25 Jul 02 2010 at 1:37 AM Rating: Good
Scholar
***
1,983 posts
Looking at how close the Mandau combo numbers are so far, I don't this wouldn't be the first time that dagger combinations came out to be so close. It happens in gear comparisons all the time.

Regarding gear comparisons.. often we say like, "when acc is around 80% or below, use X; If not, use Y"
Just as well you might be able to judge what dagger combo to use based on circumstances, since there are several good ones. I'm thinking something along the lines of "Nyzul Isle -> /Parazonium2-3x ; Medium-pace Meripo /Parazonium1-2x ; Einherjar Boss -> /Twashtar."
Doubt it's just limited to mandau combinations.
____________________________
Shamaya, Asura
#26 Jul 02 2010 at 3:48 AM Rating: Decent
Thief's Knife
*****
15,053 posts
Breaze wrote:
Lobi wrote:
Also Twashtar will likely have additional stats added at some point

The million dollar question will be: Will those additional stats on Twashtar work in your off-hand? Or will SE nerf it just like they did for relic and mythic off-hand.

I am wondering if the dagger just before Twashtar is worth using as off-hand? It is a Kartika with +6 base dmg. So: DMG: 39 Delay: 201. Just to compare Perseus's Harpe is DMG: 37 Delay: 210.

I am asking since nobody is getting 50 Glavoid Shells anytime soon.



Might as well use an Auric Dagger as that.



Edited, Jul 2nd 2010 6:55am by Lobivopis
____________________________
Final Fantasy XI 12-14-11 Update wrote:
Adjust the resolution of menus.
The main screen resolution for "FINAL FANTASY XI" is dependent on the "Overlay Graphics Resolution" setting.
If the Overlay Graphics Resolution is set higher than the Menu Resolution, menus will be automatically resized.


I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
« Previous 1 2 3
Reply To Thread

Colors Smileys Quote OriginalQuote Checked Help

 

Recent Visitors: 1 All times are in CDT
Anonymous Guests (1)