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Daggers - TrialsFollow

#1 Jun 22 2010 at 8:18 AM Rating: Good
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Just kind of curious since I haven't been able to even log in yet. Anyone know what dagger trials they added? Did they build on the current trials? What existing daggers did they add if any? Any armor trials yet?
#2 Jun 22 2010 at 8:29 AM Rating: Good
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I havent looked too much, but i checked out the Athame OAT paths(and the lance ones. They follow the same pattern). They get new trials and they are:


Athame(low damageOAT)>1087/600 Dragon-Type=D 19, Del 2l1, OAT> 1098/450 Buffalo=D20, Del 211, OA 2-3 times

OR

Athame(low damageOAT)>1087/600 Dragon-Type=D 19, Del 2l1, OAT> 1099/30 Adze=D 41, Del 211, DA7%

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D31 OAT Athame>1095/10 Chukwa's Eggs=D32, Del 211, OAT> 1096/20 Cuelebre's horns=D33, Del211, OAT


Edited, Jun 22nd 2010 10:30am by Banalaty
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I also read that someone is getting 5hit rounds with the 'fixed' h2h OAT weapons so both fists work now instead of jsut main. (both versions high/low damage paths supposedly) while /war. Only saw one claim, but if its true i would like to see if we can triple on it as well. Would love if they were jailer type DA now. Also might need to check the DA rate once again too if the type of DA has been changed, rate may have as well.

Edited, Jun 22nd 2010 10:33am by Banalaty

Edited, Jun 22nd 2010 10:34am by Banalaty
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#3 Jun 22 2010 at 8:33 AM Rating: Good
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Interesting, the low damage OA 2-3 times might actually be more attractive than the high damage OAT one depending on proc rate.
#4 Jun 22 2010 at 10:48 PM Rating: Good
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I'll try to do some math on it if someone else doesn't get to it first. But unfortunately I highly doubt that any of these weapons now have jailer-style D.A. In the patch notes, they specifically said they were changing the Mnk hands and nothing else, and as you mentioned the change was simply to allow the mainhand to strike.
If anything, it's still gotta be a great skillchain TP-building weapon or something for lol /drk.

Not to mention a lot of other new weapons. Gonna have to really crank the math guns. What all are we looking at,

Mandau - 43/176, Attack+25
Vajra - 40/200, Enhances "Sneak Attack" & "Trick Attack" II (II!? >.>)
Twashtar - 42/176
Auric Dagger (not Magian I don't think) - 39/201, SubtleBlow+10, Enhances "Dual Wield" (+5%?)
Parazonium - 31/190, Occ. atk. twice (~45%)
'Athame' - 20/211, Atks. 2-3 times (Avg of 2x?)
'Athame' - 41/211, D.A.+7%
Kila (new Thunder Dakini) - 38/190, Dex+6 Acc+12

Anything cool I'm missing as far as DD daggers go?

Edited, Jun 23rd 2010 5:07am by Shamaya
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#5 Jun 23 2010 at 12:41 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:

Parazonium - 31/190, Occ. atk. twice (~45%)
Should be D 33/Del 211

Para has no additional delay, but its base delay IS 211 not 190 while base damage is 20+13 for 33, not 30. I was REALLY hoping it was though, that would have really sealed the deal on that one.

If i had to venture a guess (for non-relic/mythic owners) Im going to put my money on Twash/Paraz for my combo of choice with the new dakinis as a good alternative. (at least i HOPE its Paraz. I have put to much into a half done athame to have it be #2 damnit! :P)

Also side note:
Its probably entirely in my head (stupid eyeballing) but after i heard some jobs have reported an upgrade of existing traits that wasnt mentioned in the updates (AutoregenII on whm etc) theres speculation of other old traits getting upgrades like maybe atk/eva/acc etc. I went partyin on thf today (77 yay!) and i "felt" like i was Tripling a lot. This is probably just placebo HOPING we got an upgrade to triple attack trait, but Kparse is borked after update so nothing besides hopeful eyes watching TP returns and spike damage on WS. I dont trust my eyes, but i would LOVE to see a hidden little ninja gem in this update. More triple attaack would make my friggin day.

Edited, Jun 23rd 2010 2:53am by Banalaty
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Ryunohige-75: 1/7/2012
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#6 Jun 23 2010 at 5:27 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
This is probably just placebo HOPING we got an upgrade to triple attack trait, but Kparse is borked after update


Actually Kparser has already been updated with a version using the correct new Memloc. Download link is Here. You want version 1.5.8 .

Edited, Jun 23rd 2010 7:28am by Melphina
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#7 Jun 23 2010 at 5:55 AM Rating: Good
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Fortunately, the Deadgye Test (-fStr, Ceremonial Knife, Hpemde) can be administered as we level and we can definitely test for possible T.A. upgrades ^.^
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#8 Jun 23 2010 at 10:05 AM Rating: Good
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Theres a post in the drg forums now claiming Acc bonus III trait at level 80 using the /check system on G colibri. No responses yet or confirmation by other players though.

More and more claims of updated old traits! Maybe we get more eva bonus and T.A.! /more excited!

lol thanks for the memloc, i actually found it late last night after my last post xD
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99Thf/99Drg/99Rng/95Pld/Secret Job 92
Bonecraft-100+3 7/29/08
Lu Shangs-5/28/08
Twashtar-90
Ryunohige-75: 1/7/2012
Mandau-75: 3/9/2012

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Some of mah gearz: http://www.ffxiah.com/player/Lakshmi/Aanalaty#item-sets
Join 'People Against The Heart Snatcher' and help put Thfs on the right P.A.T.H.S. today!
#9 Jun 23 2010 at 10:08 AM Rating: Good
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Some cool things coming.

Has anyone done any testing on Critical Attack Bonus yet?

Looks like I will be upgrading my Dakinis to a fire Kila and a Thunder Kila, I may or may not do a second thunder Kila, I haven't decided yet. I will probably also start on a OA2-3 Athame and a Twashtar(horrible,horrible looks, might have to start .dat swapping).
#10 Jun 24 2010 at 11:20 PM Rating: Good
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Fusetto, Lvl80 R/Ex - Trial 1133>1134>1135>1136 : DMG 37, Delay 186, Evis WS DMG+10%
(*゜―゜)
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#11 Jun 25 2010 at 4:39 AM Rating: Good
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The only problem sham is that the base damage of that dagger sucks. Compared to a fully upgraded Kila (STR or DEX), it loses due to the DOT and WS damage increases from both. The STR one will have 2-3 base damage higher plus on average +~0.053 to cRatio, and the dex one will have +2-3 base damage as well, with 6% higher hit rate. Not to mention Twashtar has a straight 5 base damage on it.
#12 Jun 25 2010 at 8:12 AM Rating: Decent
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Are the final two trials for the Thunder elemental dagger Lizards and then Golems? Just curious since thats what I have for my thunder polearm, and the previous 2 or 3 trials mirrored those of the dagger path.

If so, any recommendations for Golems. I'm not there yet, but that seems like a pretty awful trial.
#13 Jun 30 2010 at 9:17 AM Rating: Good
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So this thread is more about Trials. There's the Kila vs Twashtar thread.
I just want to talk about which weapon combinations are currently the best and how close or far they are from one another. But I don't want to make a new thread.

I've been working on a new way (mathematical model) of comparing weapon combinations or DPS in general for thief. However, after many hours of brainstorming, researching new stuff, and calculating, I found that I cannot use what I came up with to produce any answers; it just doesn't work. It's just a step in the direction of maybe producing a better model. A better model than what? Than this,

Golden-Standard of Basic Dmg Comparisons
DPS = [(Melee Dmg->100TP)+WS-DMG] / (Time->100TP + jaPause)

This equation is actually pretty crude when applied to thief. For most other jobs, it works just fine. But when SA/TA come into play, especially when you start introducing other weaponskills into the mix like mercy stroke, it becomes much more complicated. And This formula I feel is too crude to really give us truly accurate comparisons. I'd love something better, but as far as I know there isn't really anything.

Settings used here were a level 80Mithra Thf/Nin with 5Str merits. Buffs being Marinara Pizza+1, Minuet4, Victory March, and haste spell. A TP set and an SA+WS set were chosen according to the "best gear-set list" brainstorming thread. I arbitrarily chose to use a colibri+1 as the enemy, with an arbitrary chosen 350def, 69vit, 69agi, at level 88.

I calculated tp/round, tp/sec, ws dmg, etc, etc. But it's just not shown here. For "ja pause", I used what we learned from the Dnc testing thread some months back.

What I got was,

Mandau/Twashtar
[1098.3+1376.5] / (20.833.. + 3) =
103.84dps
Mandau/Parazonium
(961.6 + 1364.7) / (19.417 + 3) =
103.77dps

I really don't think I did the math wrong. But of course I don't swear by this model anymore. As you can see Twashtar and Parazonium are roughly equal Mandau offhands by this model. Yet Parazonium only has 2 more base dmg and +1 more max fStr than the previous Athame, and we'd pretty much concluded that it was above S.Kukri, but inferior to Blau.

And I don't think people are really debating Twashtar being possibly worse than Blau. So if these numbers are correct and Parazonium came out equal as a Mandau offhand...
Of course, this is just for Mandau.


In my personal opinion, I think the tp gain of parazonium is understated. Meaning I think it should be better than shown here. Yet in my new model that I used, where I assumed 75% engage time and 25% wait time in between battles, the twashtar combo actually came ahead by 3%. I don't think this is because twashtar was just plain better, I think it's just cuz the model failed.

If anyone wants, I can post the many other lines of calculations in wordpad that supplement what you see up there. Or post the other model I was talking about. I'm gonna work on looking at some other combinations, but I don't think I'll write anything without Mandau in it.
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#14 Jun 30 2010 at 10:15 AM Rating: Decent
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Shamaya wrote:
Settings used here were a level 80Mithra Thf/Nin with 5Str merits. Buffs being Marinara Pizza+1, Minuet4, Victory March, and haste spell.
I'm not a fan of this. You should never be getting Min4/March2 unless you have 2 bards, and the other is giving min3/march1.
Marchx2 will always beat min/march.

That aside, stfu and get back to killing Jagils!
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#15 Jun 30 2010 at 11:05 AM Rating: Decent
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I have seen you say this before Noodles, and I have seen people espouse it in my LS, but I am just not sure I buy into it. Has testing and or math actually proved this? As a thief, I am generally at about 1.000 cRatio even after I eat food on anything that matters, lower on NMs and such, so sacrificing 9% haste for 21% increased damage doesn't seem like it is that cut and dried. Granted, if I am in a pt with a bunch of wars/drks/drgs, sure, 2x haste makes sense, but I would think that you could show that it would be worth it in a pt of one handers like mnks and nins.

If someone wanted to do math, I would assume that a good thief would start from a base of about 15% Haste from gear, Haste spell and 1 March already from brd.
#16 Jun 30 2010 at 12:32 PM Rating: Decent
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A suggestion Shamaya: maybe instead of trying to create a complex equation. Why not go for a more easy to understand point-system for off-hand weapons? Like you did with the solo SA and TA gear. A point-system is not perfect either but it does help us to understand how to value certain items. Just like the solo SA and TA gear is not 100% perfect but it does give a good idea how to gear for solo SA and solo TA.

Most players on this forum understand there are just too many variables that can come into play when you DD on thf. It is nearly impossible for one person to put all this into a single equation. Try to make a few general assumptions and based on that give points for the best off-hand weapon.

Assumptions could be:
1. Burn type situation. Engaged 80-100% of the time.
2. Main hand mandau (since this is based on your setup)
3. 85% accuracy (including buffs)
4. ect.
5. ect.

Points should be given for base damage, delay (DPS) and stats of the off-hand weapon. I leave it up to you how to make a fair point distribution. But you did it well in the past with the solo SA and TA gear.

I admit this point-system is not perfect either but it should give the player a general idea what to look for in an off-hand weapon.

Edited, Jul 1st 2010 12:16am by Breaze
#17 Jun 30 2010 at 1:52 PM Rating: Default
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Take a 350 def mob with Dia2, for around 310 Def, 7 levels higher than you - a reasonable example of a possible Lv80 exp mob. Your Attack with pizza should be about 400. The increase to cRatio, as you say, is about 21% (20.9 in this example).

21% Haste (Turban, Raparee, Dusk Gloves, Bravos, Swift, Homam leges - taken streight from your Profile) with 1 March (11%) and Spell (15%). Add 9% Haste from Advancing: 20.5% Increase.

Minuet 4 marginally beats Advancing March for you, a thief, by 0.4%.
It's highly unlikely your party is full of Dual Wielders.

So let's look at a 2Hander, who you are probably in a party of (Probably 2 of them in a 3DD party).
They will have closer to 450 Attack, Maybe 19% Haste (Turban, swift, haiadate, dusk, dusk/usu) or 18% (turban, homam x3, swift). The 9% Haste from march will be a boost of 25%or 24% against Minuet's 17.8 for a 450Att 2H.

Thats at least a 6% increase from using March1 over Minuet4 for your 2H party members.

Even if you have (for some reason) 3 DWers and 1 2H job, it's more beneficial for the overall killspeed for them to have March1 than for you three to have Min4, assuming you're all doing equal damage (which in it's self is unlikely as 2H jobs if played with the same skill and gear, have a strong advantage over a DWer and are likely doing the most damage anyway).


If you have a Corsair, then Min4 is only going to give a boost closer to 15.6%., significantly less than March1.
If you don't have a Cor, but have a Dnc, even with unmerited Haste Samba, March1 will give 23.1% boost, again, a decent amount more than Min4. If it's merited 10% samba, you're looking at 26.5%, about 5.5% stronger than Min4.


Minuet4 is only better than March1 if you:
Have a party with no 2H DDs.
Have no Cor.
Have no Dnc.

If you have at least one 2H DD, or you have a cor, or you have a dnc, then March1 will beat Min4.

And that, meldi, is why march1 is better. The better your party setup, the weaker Min4 becomes. If you have a weaker pt setup (read: only 1 brd), then Min4 will either be marginally better for you, or equal March1 (depending on your gear, again, the better your gear, the stronger March1 becomes). However, even if it's better for you, asking for it to increase your damage by at the MOST 0.5% is selfish if you're decreasing the damage output of any 2H DD you have by as much as 5%.

March/Min is bad. March/March is better in almost all situations. The only time it isn't is when you have only one bard, no dnc or cor, you're all eating pizza/sushi (if you eat meat, and I know for a fact you like your YCBs, minuet is again weakened) and your DDs are only DW/H2H jobs (Bst, Pup, Mnk, Nin, Thf, Pld. Not Dnc, if you have a Dnc, March is again better) THEN Min/March will win.

The chance of you getting in a PT with only pld/bst/pup/mnk/nin/thf as the other DDs, and having a bard at all (read: them not disbanding for being with such a lol job selection), is rare.

Edited, Jun 30th 2010 7:57pm by Noodles
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#18 Jul 01 2010 at 11:13 AM Rating: Good
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Noodles already knows my opinion on the settings chosen; bard songs, that is. I won't claim to be right especially since I find less and less reason to defend 'the math' these days anyway but I do have a rationale. The reason is because I wanted to choose a "medium" ground for the comparison. Well I chose Mandau and perfect gear for the settings because I feel I can / want to obtain that (see how selfish my intentions are?).
But I know that after one obtains such gear, I'm sure they won't log in their mog houses every day with double march, pizza, corsair's and exp roll, haste spell, and perhaps a haste samba--and have those effects on them everywhere they go until they log out. Nay, there will only be some percentage of time where they're under those conditions. In defense of choosing single march, it'd be for the middle ground in between double march parties, and no bard situations, and situations where you've got a bard but you have other DD's who want or need other songs (IE sams who have x-hit builds and want their minuet, mediocre 1h dd's who want/need a madrigal).
Of course, if I had it my way, I'd always go 2xMarch whenever possible. I agree that it's much more often than not the best choice.


Breaze, I appreciate your suggestion. That is a good idea and I wish I could do that. I'm glad some people have been able to put the sa/ta rankings to use but ehh.. Truth is, I was only able to create those numbers because I had at great (great) length come up with a formula that is actually in my opinion very accurate. If you look at how many variables are in the formula though and how long it is, yeah it was no cakewalk.

Assuming that "the" DPS formula for thief could be found, I suppose it is possible that general values could be given to various stats. But in my opinion, it'd be a lot more situational than for SA/TA. So much so that with all the interdependent variables, I think such a stat list would be a lot less valuable for dagger combos than it would be for something like SA/TA or WS. Your daggers play a role in every bit of damage you do as a thief. But your WS set is of no relation to your TA set or your TP gain set. Because there aren't these interdependent variables, stuff like WS dmg is incredibly easy to calculate in comparison.

*****

Did another dagger combo. This time Mandau/2-3xParazonium. I'm pretty surprised at the result. Makes me doubt applying this formula to thief even more. In reality since I think tp gain for mandau thieves is understated rather than overstated (as commonly thought), the strength of this dagger combo should be even higher than shown here I would..think. But I find it hard to believe at the moment that it would be as good or better than the other two combinations above. Either way:


#3 Parazonium 2-3x
4.9tp/hit
Swing vol (2-3)
If like ridill, it's 30/50/20. Apparently on ridill's wiki page, it's showing that the trait procs before the weapon. I'm not so sure this is true, but might as well use it.
Out of a 100hits, we have 5 double attacks and 19 triple attacks. So what remains to be multi procced on? 5 hits taken, so that brings us down to 95. 10% of that can be tripled. Subtract that, and we have 85.5 hits that Parazonium can function on.
Triple=0.855*20%rate=17.1//+9.5=26.6
Double=0.855*50%=42.75//+5=47.75
Single=0.855*30%=25.65
25.65attacks + 47.75*2 + 26.6*3 = 200.95 hits out of 100. 2.0095 multiplier.

So 4.9tp/hit*(1.24 + 2.0095) =avg 15.9tp/round
delay = 297. tp/delay = 0.0535, *60 =
3.21 tp/sec. Adjust = 3.21*1/0.52*0.95
=5.864 adjusted tp/sec

time->100
17.053sec ->100

Dmg->100
100/15.9 * 118.5 = 745.3dmg->100
Dmg/Round = 66.1 + 52.4 = 118.5d/round
(Main +fStr)*Multiproc*Acc%*(pDif*non-crit% + pDif+1*crit%) +
(Off +fStr)*Multiproc*Acc%*(pDif*non-crit% + pDif+1*crit%)
(43 + 2)*1.24*0.95*([1.129*0.882 + 2.129*0.118]=1.247) +
(20 + 2)*2.0095*0.95*1.247

SA+WS
({(43bD + 12fStr + f[0.83 * f(0.6*129)]WSC)*3.0fTP + 127dex} *1hit *2.19pDif*1.15crit
+{(43bD + 12fStr + f[0.83 * f(0.6*129)]WSC)*1.0fTP} *0.24hit *1.19pDif*0.8acc
+{(20bD + 10fStr + f[0.83 * f(0.6*129)]WSC)*1.0fTP} *1.24hit *1.19pDif*0.8acc)
= 1211.4 + 27.0 + 109.8 = 1348.2


(745.3 + 1348.2) / (17.053 + 3) = 104.4dps
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#19 Jul 01 2010 at 3:56 PM Rating: Decent
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Banalaty wrote:
Theres a post in the drg forums now claiming Acc bonus III trait at level 80 using the /check system on G colibri. No responses yet or confirmation by other players though.

More and more claims of updated old traits! Maybe we get more eva bonus and T.A.! /more excited!

lol thanks for the memloc, i actually found it late last night after my last post xD


DRK gets more Attack Bonus also.

Edited, Jul 1st 2010 6:57pm by Lobivopis
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I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#20 Jul 01 2010 at 4:07 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
In my personal opinion, I think the tp gain of parazonium is understated. Meaning I think it should be better than shown here. Yet in my new model that I used, where I assumed 75% engage time and 25% wait time in between battles, the twashtar combo actually came ahead by 3%. I don't think this is because twashtar was just plain better, I think it's just cuz the model failed.


Unless they lower the SATA timers more TP is irrelevant when you have Mercy Stroke because you're going to be sitting on it waiting for the next timer to come up anyway.

Also Twashtar will likely have additional stats added at some point while the OAT path will likely always be OAT and nothing else.


Edited, Jul 1st 2010 7:40pm by Lobivopis
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Adjust the resolution of menus.
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If the Overlay Graphics Resolution is set higher than the Menu Resolution, menus will be automatically resized.


I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#21 Jul 01 2010 at 5:03 PM Rating: Decent
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Lobi wrote:
Also Twashtar will likely have additional stats added at some point

The million dollar question will be: Will those additional stats on Twashtar work in your off-hand? Or will SE nerf it just like they did for relic and mythic off-hand.

I am wondering if the dagger just before Twashtar is worth using as off-hand? It is a Kartika with +6 base dmg. So: DMG: 39 Delay: 201. Just to compare Perseus's Harpe is DMG: 37 Delay: 210.

I am asking since nobody is getting 50 Glavoid Shells anytime soon.

Edited, Jul 2nd 2010 1:21am by Breaze
#22 Jul 01 2010 at 6:00 PM Rating: Good
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In that case Breaze, probably want either Kila with STR or DEX

Twastar -1= 39 DMG, 201 Delay
Fire Kila = 38 DMG, 190 Delay +6 STR +16 atk
Thunder Kila = 38 DMG 190 Delay +6 DEX +12 acc
#23 Jul 01 2010 at 8:27 PM Rating: Good
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Add auric dagger to the list of alternatives there, when we figure out where it comes from

dmg 39 delay 201 subtle blow +10 "enhances dual wield"

Also, what are the thoughts on fully upgraded athame? (either the oat2-3 or oat path) See very little discussion on them.
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#24 Jul 01 2010 at 9:56 PM Rating: Good
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Yeah I know, Lobi, that the basic philosophy of Mandau is that TP gain isn't a problem because you're "bound by your timers anyway" and that Mandau is easy to play because you "really don't have to do anything unstacked." But very often neither of these things are true.

Here's my reason to question this.
Let's say, in whatever battle situation you're in, you're engaged 100% of the time and can freely SA/TA. If you look at my Mandau/Twashtar results up there, you'll see that with the settings I chose (95% acc, DW2, suppa, mirke wardecors DW3%, 22% gearhaste, 6sTP, 1march, haste spell, brutal, triple merits, 5 SA merits), 0->100TP (I chose to have WS return and TP overflow cancel each other out) is reached in ~20.8 seconds on average. Then add the 3 seconds required for JA pause to this (unless you kill the mob w/ the WS, which I didn't consider) and you get a theoretical 23.8 seconds required per WS cycle. Now, your 2 JA timers averaged together are 55 seconds. Divide that by two and you can stack a WS every 27.5 seconds. According to that, you're gaining TP in surplus. This turns out to be the case when zerging einherjar bosses, where TP gain is even faster too.

But, the error I was thinking, was that this assumes you are engaged 100% of the time. That is definitely not the case. Usually the problem I have in any decent party is that I'm not gaining TP fast enough. Mobs just die way too fast and the bard doesn't, or can't, pull fast enough to keep up. And too many other bards just don't think fast enough to pull alternative mobs (more skoffin, mobs from other camp, mamool ja from middle bird camp, wivres).

But, it is obvious that engage time is not 100%. That's why for my attempt at a new damage analysis (not shown here), I chose to go with an average engage time of 75%. Much more realistic. So now, if you take the previous TP gain of Twashtar, 20.8seconds, and divide it by 0.75, you get ~27.73 seconds required for TP. Add 3secs of JA pause in there per WS and it brings it up to 30.73. Now you are no longer out-tp'ing your timers, but rather you are sitting on them.

I think the problem might be even worse though. Even if you consider 75% engage time as a rule instead of 100%, this still doesn't take a lot of factors into account that play a major role. One thing is mob overkill. I don't know about you, but when the mob is at lower HP's I don't mercy stroke. I'll usually wait for the next mob. While this builds a TP surplus if I'm sitting on top of 100% TP when the mob is at 20% hp and I'm waiting for it to die (I could have used less TP gain then, right?). This happens alllllll the time. Sometimes, if I had only gotten TP sooner, I could have WS'ed sooner in the fight and wouldn't have needed to build excess TP. Other times, this only happens because my JA didn't come up fast enough. Then there's times where you can't SA+WS because you have hate, which makes your TP gain relatively less important. There's also the usual building over 100TP because as you're trying to WS the mobs and people around it are moving. While this is happening your TP is building up, one JA is already at 0, but the next JA is already ticking down. So when you finally do WS, you'll have less time than before to catch your tp up to your next JA.


I think TP gain is on the other hand not as much a big deal when you don't have Mandau in a burn party. It seems so much easier for me at least, to make sense of it. If you don't stack your WS, it's no problem. You don't really have to worry so much about syncing your timers. If they sync, great; if they don't, no problem.

Now that I think about it, the formula I used above assumes 100% engage time but it also assumes you can JA+WS every time you have TP. So maybe it doesn't really understate TP gain as I had thought, actually...
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#25 Jul 02 2010 at 1:37 AM Rating: Good
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Looking at how close the Mandau combo numbers are so far, I don't this wouldn't be the first time that dagger combinations came out to be so close. It happens in gear comparisons all the time.

Regarding gear comparisons.. often we say like, "when acc is around 80% or below, use X; If not, use Y"
Just as well you might be able to judge what dagger combo to use based on circumstances, since there are several good ones. I'm thinking something along the lines of "Nyzul Isle -> /Parazonium2-3x ; Medium-pace Meripo /Parazonium1-2x ; Einherjar Boss -> /Twashtar."
Doubt it's just limited to mandau combinations.
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#26 Jul 02 2010 at 3:48 AM Rating: Decent
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Breaze wrote:
Lobi wrote:
Also Twashtar will likely have additional stats added at some point

The million dollar question will be: Will those additional stats on Twashtar work in your off-hand? Or will SE nerf it just like they did for relic and mythic off-hand.

I am wondering if the dagger just before Twashtar is worth using as off-hand? It is a Kartika with +6 base dmg. So: DMG: 39 Delay: 201. Just to compare Perseus's Harpe is DMG: 37 Delay: 210.

I am asking since nobody is getting 50 Glavoid Shells anytime soon.



Might as well use an Auric Dagger as that.



Edited, Jul 2nd 2010 6:55am by Lobivopis
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I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#27 Jul 02 2010 at 8:15 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Might as well use an Auric Dagger as that.


Speaking of this, has anyone discovered the method to obtain this yet? The version update was so massive I anticipate it will take a long time before everything is chronicled on the wiki. I haven't heard of the means to get the auric dagger yet so I'm curious to know if anyone else has.

Also I wanted to comment on this

Quote:
Noodles already knows my opinion on the settings chosen; bard songs, that is. I won't claim to be right especially since I find less and less reason to defend 'the math' these days anyway but I do have a rationale.


I haven't tried to do any large scale math comparisons for a while because I've come to the realization that it's too easy to overlook factors and make mistakes. It was Deadgye who first told me that you can't accurately compare two dagger setups "in full" and you should stick to individual portions which can be done. A piece of gear versus B piece of gear, or calculating tp per hit is easy, but in practice you're combining everything. TP gain (with many sub factors), sa/ta solo and stacked weaponskills (and timers), gear, food, weaponskill frequency, melee criticals, buffs/debuffs, average pDIF (and as shamaya said it overlooks things such as actual engage time versus downtime plus other possible mistakes).

I will continue to do math for things which can easily be mathed (smaller scale comparisons) but S-E has issued A LOT of gear now with so many stats it's impossible for me to say "this is better than that" anymore. I will always advocate intelligent play by using the knowledge we have of mechanics and I've been trying to get back to the basics a little bit.

--Don't sit on job timers for too long (especially sa/ta)
--Get your accuracy close to or at the cap by whatever means needed then look for other stats
--Haste returns exponential gains
--Some daggers and equipment are obviously weak whereas others are obviously stronger
--Weaponskilling twice at closer to 100% tp will be more effective than weaponskilling once at over 200% tp

etc etc etc. These are the tried and true universal constants which we know we can rely on. This knowledge of what is effective when playing the job is what I use when I'm playing anymore. I don't trust large scale maths to be fully accurate because there is too much that can be added to the equations to throw it off.

Edited, Jul 2nd 2010 10:20am by Melphina
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#28 Jul 02 2010 at 9:10 AM Rating: Decent
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Speaking of offhand daggers and mandau, I hear the Lv80 Mandau and the Lv75 one are seperate Dats, and thus theoretically you could Dual Wield them...
That's be pretty pimping!
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#29 Jul 02 2010 at 10:18 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Speaking of offhand daggers and mandau, I hear the Lv80 Mandau and the Lv75 one are seperate Dats, and thus theoretically you could Dual Wield them...
That's be pretty pimping!


Mandau is still rare/ex so you can only have one at a time no matter which level weapon you're using. The different dats merely correspond to the different sets of stats from the magian's trials upgrade process.

Edited, Jul 2nd 2010 12:20pm by Melphina
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#30 Jul 02 2010 at 11:08 AM Rating: Good
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Mistress Melphina wrote:
I haven't tried to do any large scale math comparisons for a while because I've come to the realization that it's too easy to overlook factors and make mistakes.

And that's probably the biggest thing that swayed me from performing all those calculations and just going with my "gut feeling" based on an estimation of the math behind it all. Once you understand the math, you can use it to base your choices on as an estimation, but creating a psuedo-XI engine based only on the equations just doesn't work.

Also, hi. :P
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#31 Jul 02 2010 at 11:26 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Also, hi. :P


Hi, it's been a while Chanchan. Good to see you around.
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#32 Jul 02 2010 at 2:12 PM Rating: Decent
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Mistress Melphina wrote:
Quote:
Speaking of offhand daggers and mandau, I hear the Lv80 Mandau and the Lv75 one are seperate Dats, and thus theoretically you could Dual Wield them...
That's be pretty pimping!


Mandau is still rare/ex so you can only have one at a time no matter which level weapon you're using.
Except they are different items and so their only similar factor is the name, and as we have no proof the Rare tags refers to the name and not the DAT, if they are different DATS, there is a possibility that the Lv75 and Lv80 Mandaus, as they have diferent dats, could be dual-wieldable.
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#33 Jul 02 2010 at 4:16 PM Rating: Good
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I'd have to agree, I wouldn't rule out the possibility that you could have both...

...the real question is...who in their right mind would take the risk of doing another relic weapon with the possibility of it not working?
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#34 Jul 02 2010 at 4:23 PM Rating: Good
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inb4 MIND @#%^ picture of Mandau/Batardeau guy.

Seriously though, I hope the NMs for Twash are not as bad as they seem. The one that drops the items for GK apparently is a horrible fight (Full alliance of relic holders etc had issues around 80) and they dropped 2.. And if the NM has nothing else worthwhile (A la Verthandi/Orcus) I don't think I'll ever see Twashtar.. It is however a nice thing in one way, it's motivated me even more to finish my Mandau, as it's beginning to look like a better option for less work. Haha.
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#35 Jul 02 2010 at 6:06 PM Rating: Decent
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Mandau is less work? That is an interesting way to put it.

I don't consider 5000 killshots on EP monsters less work. And I did not even mention the first trail since that one is too weak. Also you will be doing even more of those next update. Think 2000 + 2500 monsters.

Edited, Jul 3rd 2010 2:08am by Breaze
#36 Jul 02 2010 at 8:42 PM Rating: Good
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The magian trials aren't really /that/ bad. They're just cruel and painful. An Empyrean weapon is still a lot easier to get than a relic or mythic. Especially since I'm sure you could offer gil for the r/ex items required for the weapon and still get it cheaper than a relic.
Surprised nobody else mentioned this, but you can't offhand a relic or mythic weapon and get the bonuses from it being in the offhand :( All you get is the base-damage/delay. It's unclear if the same will apply for Empyreans later, but my guess is probably.
With level cap increase, and once people find out how to stay in abyssia longer, and how to activate the "!!" weaknesses on abyssian monsters, and people figure out how to infuse atma to buff themselves in abyssia, I'm sure those mobs will become easier. And you might also be able to merc them.
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#37 Jul 02 2010 at 8:51 PM Rating: Good
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Obtaining a relic and upgrading it through the Magian quests while extremely time consuming is painful and time consuming but for me personally it will be easier. In fact, I started "really" working on my Mandau and my OAT Athame at around the same time, halfway through completing my dynamis dagger currently, and I'm 2/10 on Verthandi Eyes. On average it takes me 19 hours of farming to obtain a Verthandi pop and I've yet to get a group consistently to handle the fight, there's no interest for those I know and I could be mistaken but the close friends I have who would help for 0 incentive are BLM/THF/BLU, WHM/MNK, WHM, and SAM/COR, which last I checked, could not 4 man verthandi. Sure if you can consistently get a group to kill the NMs it's simple and probably takes nowhere near the time upgrading the relic trials do.

However, that isn't the case for me, sadly. :\

The Empyrean Weapons seem more out of reach than Verthandi as well, given they require more people, more items and a similar drop rate. The saving grace being of course they are not as hard to obtain pops for. Of course, in the future they will be more low man friendly as well. That being said, there's a fair chance even greater trials will be added to those which make me uneasy on focusing on that over Mandau as well.

tl;dr Yeah, for me Mandau would take less time/frustration and I do hope Empyrean Weapons are more feasible in the future.

EDIT: Oh, and I forgot to mention, @Shamaya; believe me I have tried purchasing some of the items required, however on Shiva, VNM shells are sparse and I can't seem to find a single one that actually kills Verthandi ever, really. The drops from the T3 VNms aren't exactly ah, equally desirable.

Edited, Jul 2nd 2010 10:53pm by ElvaanTHF
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#38 Jul 04 2010 at 1:09 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm suddenly curious about a dedicated Evisceration set.

Evis+10% Dmg Dagger Mainhand / X's Knife Offhand.

Wodner how it'd do...
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#39 Jul 04 2010 at 10:33 PM Rating: Good
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Fusetto/X's, with the new crit dmg+ body and back. Stack a dex, pop a feint.
http://robonosto.blogspot.com/2010/07/magian-weapons-mutli-attack-rate.html
^--This blog is really good. Looks like I was wrong about the 2-3x parazonium. Instead of it being almost 2 hits on average per round, it looks like it's about 1.7 instead.
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#40 Jul 05 2010 at 12:14 AM Rating: Good
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Noodles wrote:
I'm suddenly curious about a dedicated Evisceration set.

Evis+10% Dmg Dagger Mainhand / X's Knife Offhand.

Wodner how it'd do...


Next few limbus runs I'll be running parses of DE vs Evis along with gear sets I'm using for both. (Not to prove EV with that setup is better, but more so since we as THF have a better grasp of DE dmg on most mobs so it'll service as a nice baseline of comparison)

That being said, if nothing else, it's nice for e-peen and by eyeballing it seems to perform marginally better. (Eyeballing, key word, it could turn out I was drinking too much) but as an example of average EVs on the tiger/mandy/beetle/etc Temenos floor, they were performing nicely. 1.7-1.9kish on Mandies, 1.3-.15kish on other targets, while DE seemed to be doing slightly less. (Same discloser, no real parses yet, just loleyeballing)

I could say the one benefit of this if it even comes close to a DE spamming dagger setup is the ability to open/close darkness, which is under-rated. If we could keep them within the same DPS/WS dmg, that alone would edge it abit ahead for now until better setups are made more available.

http://s724.photobucket.com/albums/ww242/FFXI_User/?action=view&current=EV.jpg

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#41 Jul 05 2010 at 2:00 AM Rating: Good
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Shamaya wrote:
Fusetto/X's, with the new crit dmg+ body and back. Stack a dex, pop a feint.
http://robonosto.blogspot.com/2010/07/magian-weapons-mutli-attack-rate.html
^--This blog is really good. Looks like I was wrong about the 2-3x parazonium. Instead of it being almost 2 hits on average per round, it looks like it's about 1.7 instead.


My friend have completed the OA2-3 axe and he did some tests on it. I don't know how big was the sample size or any other detail, but he told me that he always hover around 1,6 attacks per round on every test with attack distribution roughly 55:30:15.

Edited, Jul 5th 2010 5:21am by Ozma
#42 Jul 05 2010 at 4:05 PM Rating: Default
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Mistress Melphina wrote:


Mandau is still rare/ex so you can only have one at a time no matter which level weapon you're using. The different dats merely correspond to the different sets of stats from the magian's trials upgrade process.

Edited, Jul 2nd 2010 12:20pm by Melphina


And you know this how?

The name is irrelevant, for all intents and purposes lvl 75 Mandau and lvl 80 Mandau are completely different items that just share the same name.

Edited, Jul 5th 2010 7:06pm by Lobivopis
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I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#43 Jul 05 2010 at 5:56 PM Rating: Excellent
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Lobivopis wrote:
Mistress Melphina wrote:


Mandau is still rare/ex so you can only have one at a time no matter which level weapon you're using. The different dats merely correspond to the different sets of stats from the magian's trials upgrade process.

Edited, Jul 2nd 2010 12:20pm by Melphina


And you know this how?

The name is irrelevant, for all intents and purposes lvl 75 Mandau and lvl 80 Mandau are completely different items that just share the same name.

Edited, Jul 5th 2010 7:06pm by Lobivopis


I'm going to assume a used KSNM99 orb has a different .DAT than an unused one given there has to be some trigger to not allowing a repop, yet you still can not hold a used and unused KSNM99 orb. That, however, could be erroneous on my part, but it would be a "safe" assumption, no?

Edited, Jul 5th 2010 7:56pm by ElvaanTHF
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#44 Jul 05 2010 at 5:57 PM Rating: Default
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If I had a few 100 mil to waste I'd definitely want to DW the Lv75 and 80 Mandaus, even if the 75 one is beaten by something else later, it would make the most totally epic town gear.


I gotta say though, SE failed hugely with the relic trials. Lv75 Mandau trials shouldn't have ended in a Lv80 Mandau, it should have ended in a Lv80 whitebox Mandau +1.
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#45 Jul 05 2010 at 10:37 PM Rating: Good
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I would love it if anyone knows of a situation where 2 different r/ex items with the same name can be held at once. Not that I know anyone who's actually tried upgrading a 1-2x and 2-3x weapon at once (has anyone?), but assuming you can't hold both at the same time when they have the same name, it's so lame.
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#46 Jul 06 2010 at 7:04 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
And you know this how?

The name is irrelevant, for all intents and purposes lvl 75 Mandau and lvl 80 Mandau are completely different items that just share the same name.


I don't believe the name is irrelevant. S-E based the equipment swap function around the item name. Holding 2 items with like names is a logistical error if you try and macro them for gear swaps (it happens all the time if you're holding multiple aug/ex items like trial weapons). Furthermore in the July 1 update notes S-E writes

Quote:
- An issue wherein the name of the newly added item "Dark Earring" was overlapping with an existing item has been addressed.


This is further proof an item name can matter to S-E's game mechanics.

Quote:

I'm going to assume a used KSNM99 orb has a different .DAT than an unused one given there has to be some trigger to not allowing a repop, yet you still can not hold a used and unused KSNM99 orb. That, however, could be erroneous on my part, but it would be a "safe" assumption, no?


I'm pretty sure the used orbs do have a separate .dat than the unused ones but both items share the same name and both items are rare/ex. It's logical that the rare function groups every .dat item with the same name together and only allows you to hold one instance within the entire group (this is actually very simple to program). The rare tag means you can only hold one single instance any item with a given name.

Edited, Jul 6th 2010 1:52pm by Melphina
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#47 Jul 06 2010 at 10:15 AM Rating: Decent
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Mistress Melphina wrote:
They made two items with the same name which is a logistical error because if a player had both of them in their inventory macroing them into gear swaps wouldn't work correctly.

This already happened (and continues to happen) any time you have more than one non-Rare item. The game is no more confused if I tried to macro in "Mandau" while having a LV75 and LV80 Mandau in my inventory than it is when I try to macro in "Ruby Earring" while having two Ruby Earrings in my inventory, even (and especially) if I have two different Ruby Earrings. This has always been an issue with augmented items from Tenshodo Coffer BCs.
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#48 Jul 06 2010 at 11:14 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
This already happened (and continues to happen) any time you have more than one non-Rare item.


I reworded that section of my previous post because it didn't convey my thoughts the way I wanted it to. I used the equipment swap function as an example of one instance where the item name can make a difference to respond to this

Quote:
The name is irrelevant, for all intents and purposes lvl 75 Mandau and lvl 80 Mandau are completely different items that just share the same name.


I didn't intend for the discussion to focus on the equip swap function itself but rather make the point that the item name is not irrelevant to game mechanics. I also brought up the Dark Earring as further proof that S-E considers item names to be important. Expanding upon this thought line the level 35 dark earring IS tagged as RARE whereas the level 76 earring is not. This is interesting because that was the only earring they changed in the July update. There is another set of earrings that share the same name

Aqua Earring -- level 49, +6 each water and fire resist
Aqua Earring -- Level 76, +2 mind, + 15 each water and fire resist

However neither of these earrings are RARE, and they did NOT modify the aqua earrings but they DID modify the Dark Earrings. Why is this? Remember when I said this?

I wrote:
Quote:
It's logical that the rare function groups every .dat item with the same name together and only allows you to hold one instance within the entire group (this is actually very simple to program).


The Dark Earring wasn't renamed so they made some other modification. I'm pretty sure they made an exception so that RARE function doesn't group the lvl 76 Dark earring together with the lvl 35 one. Of course I have no way to prove that but it's logical and makes sense to me. The KSNM 99 orb example is a good indication that the rare function serves more than one purpose (IE: grouping .dat items with like names together in addition to allowing you to hold only one within that group). Both the level 75 and the level 80 Mandau's are tagged RARE and they both have the same name. I can't PROVE that dual wielding Mandau's is impossible but my gut instinct tells me no. I'm extremely doubtful you can hold two of them despite them having different .dat files and different levels.

Edited, Jul 6th 2010 1:54pm by Melphina
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#49 Jul 06 2010 at 2:09 PM Rating: Decent
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Shamaya wrote:
I would love it if anyone knows of a situation where 2 different r/ex items with the same name can be held at once. Not that I know anyone who's actually tried upgrading a 1-2x and 2-3x weapon at once (has anyone?)
The OAT and OA2-3T weapons are the same weapon with different augments. And thus the same dat with different augments. That's where the two mandaus differ they are two different items with different base stats (befor augments) and thus theoretically could be DWed.

Melph wrote:
This is further proof an item name can matter to S-E's game mechanics.
The fact that they existed at the same time is proof it's possible to have two different Rare items with the same name, strengthening lobi and my's points.
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#50 Jul 06 2010 at 5:41 PM Rating: Decent
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Mistress Melphina wrote:
Quote:
This already happened (and continues to happen) any time you have more than one non-Rare item.


I reworded that section of my previous post because it didn't convey my thoughts the way I wanted it to. I used the equipment swap function as an example of one instance where the item name can make a difference to respond to this

Quote:
The name is irrelevant, for all intents and purposes lvl 75 Mandau and lvl 80 Mandau are completely different items that just share the same name.


I didn't intend for the discussion to focus on the equip swap function itself but rather make the point that the item name is not irrelevant to game mechanics. I also brought up the Dark Earring as further proof that S-E considers item names to be important. Expanding upon this thought line the level 35 dark earring IS tagged as RARE whereas the level 76 earring is not. This is interesting because that was the only earring they changed in the July update. There is another set of earrings that share the same name

Aqua Earring -- level 49, +6 each water and fire resist
Aqua Earring -- Level 76, +2 mind, + 15 each water and fire resist

However neither of these earrings are RARE, and they did NOT modify the aqua earrings but they DID modify the Dark Earrings. Why is this? Remember when I said this?

I wrote:
Quote:
It's logical that the rare function groups every .dat item with the same name together and only allows you to hold one instance within the entire group (this is actually very simple to program).


The Dark Earring wasn't renamed so they made some other modification. I'm pretty sure they made an exception so that RARE function doesn't group the lvl 76 Dark earring together with the lvl 35 one. Of course I have no way to prove that but it's logical and makes sense to me. The KSNM 99 orb example is a good indication that the rare function serves more than one purpose (IE: grouping .dat items with like names together in addition to allowing you to hold only one within that group). Both the level 75 and the level 80 Mandau's are tagged RARE and they both have the same name. I can't PROVE that dual wielding Mandau's is impossible but my gut instinct tells me no. I'm extremely doubtful you can hold two of them despite them having different .dat files and different levels.

Edited, Jul 6th 2010 1:54pm by Melphina


You can check if a used orb and a new orb are the same .dat rather than just guessing.
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Final Fantasy XI 12-14-11 Update wrote:
Adjust the resolution of menus.
The main screen resolution for "FINAL FANTASY XI" is dependent on the "Overlay Graphics Resolution" setting.
If the Overlay Graphics Resolution is set higher than the Menu Resolution, menus will be automatically resized.


I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#51 Jul 06 2010 at 9:12 PM Rating: Good
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3,775 posts
Quote:
The OAT and OA2-3T weapons are the same weapon with different augments. And thus the same dat with different augments. That's where the two mandaus differ they are two different items with different base stats (befor augments) and thus theoretically could be DWed.


That's a valid point and probably the easiest way to settle the discussion. The three different Parazonium's are all tagged as rare but augmented differently. If it is possible to dual wield two of them then dual wielding 2 Mandau's should also be possible. I actually want to be proven wrong on this and if that ends up being the case I'll eat my words. I'd LOVE to be able to dual wield Mandau's (even if I probably wouldn't ever see two myself) as that would be really really hot.

Quote:
The fact that they existed at the same time is proof it's possible to have two different Rare items with the same name, strengthening lobi and my's points.


I believe you're right. Your arguments have been stronger than mine have. I will concede my stance on the matter for now and wait to see if anything develops from this. I believe I may have been wrong. Man, if you really can dual wield two Mandau's that would be just... wow. Enough to make a person /drool.

Edited, Jul 6th 2010 11:13pm by Melphina
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