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DNC as a viable subjobFollow

#1 Jun 21 2010 at 3:58 PM Rating: Decent
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Hello there my name is Pookalu, 65THF,33NIN,29DNC. Now as THF has always been one of my favorite jobs since I have played for many years (new account ; ;) I thought that with the new update I would write up a small thread to hopefully give THF a proper place in a pt, especially since we fight for pt invites all the time.

1.Version Update Changes to DNC and what they mean for your THF

DNC has now been given the ability to Dual Wield at level 20. I do not know if they will get DW2 at a later level since NIN goes all the way to 3 I believe, but that we'll have to wait and see. What this does now mean is you no longer have to use /NIN with THF all the time now!

2.Utsusemi vs. Dancing

Now i realise what some of you might say to No.1 so let me start by saying /NIN will most likely still be the premier sub for THF as a whole. Utsusemi does assist in pulling without damage, helps when you mess up that SATA and turn the mob on yourself, and even offers a chance for some light off-tanking if the mob really seems to hate on you for a few seconds. Now with all that said /NINs you have my support cause I've been right there with you many times before, but let's take a sec to work outside the status quo. /DNC not only gives you the ability to DW with the best of them, but it also give THF the ability to debuff, voke, cure, and still sneak/invis iteself. DNC Accuracy Bonus trait is also another fine reason to sub onto your THF. What THF here has never had that horrible string of misses against high evasion mobs such as colibris?

3.The World needs more Tanks and Healers!

Now as a rule most tanks are using shadows to avoid damage and save on downtime. While this is the norm let us not forget our prefered tanks the PLD! They tank from having a high defense and the ability to cure themselves for hate. Now I'm not saying a THF is anywhere close to a PLD but think for a minute if you will. The party is running low on HP/MP from an unfortunate link and Sleep has just not wanted to stick. Your THF/DNC has a high enough evasion plus Animated Flourish, and Waltzs to make a passable off-tank til things start going your way. Your pt will end up bieng grateful as well as the PLD who may be used to dying, but still doesn't like it anymore than the rest of us.

As far as being a healer goes I think personally THF/DNC will find alot of use in pt's cause there are just those nights that you can't seem to find any healers seeking. With /DNC Accuracy Bonus, THFs and DNCs natural dexterity and agility, and decent accuracy gear (Scorp Harness, Life Belt, etc...) THF will be able to tp with the best of them and usually have plenty left over to at least be a backup if not main healer for their party. The wonderful thing about this setup is at the same time you are healing you are also doing damage with each strike while building your tp. Healers that can do some light DD are better than ones that just stand ther imo.

4.Buffing and Debuffing

Another thing that always comes in handy is a party member that can buff and debuff. /DNC opens the door for THF to fill one of those roles. Drain Samba, Aspir Samba are extremely useful in reducing downtime since you are draining hp/mp with every hit. Steps I think are even better though. THF 60+ will prolly benifit from these more than lower for the following reason. Before 60 you have to stack SATA together so you won't wanna waste that on a Quickstep you'll want to be putting some hurt on a mob. However at 60 you get Assassin and you can now split your SATA macro in two. Trick Attack your tank from the front, then walk around back and Sneak Attack/Quickstep or Boxstep to ensure a debuff that will hit. Which step you use is kinda situational (Boxstep on high def mobs like Crawlers, Quickstep on high eva mobs like Colibris), but being able to add that extra debuff along with whatever rest of your pt is using results in faster kills and more xp/hour.

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Well at the moment that's all I have to say but I hope you will reply and give me your thoughts on the new possibilities and how they might finally give THF a proper place in pt's

Pookalu Shiva Server
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#2 Jun 21 2010 at 4:44 PM Rating: Decent
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While we're on the subject of subjobs, I'd like to point out that Innin was never mentioned on the Version Update details page on the official site while much of the older information was repeated. Wishful thinking, I know.
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#3 Jun 21 2010 at 4:48 PM Rating: Good
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Jayjs wrote:
While we're on the subject of subjobs, I'd like to point out that Innin was never mentioned on the Version Update details page on the official site while much of the older information was repeated. Wishful thinking, I know.

Yes that is a very good point and as I said I'm not saying /NIN will be forgotten overnight just that it will no longer be the mainstay bandwagon must-have sub.
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#4 Jun 21 2010 at 4:54 PM Rating: Decent
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That wasn't in regard to your topic. I just didn't want to make a new topic.

edit: and it wasn't a good point at all. Just small observation and a bit of wishful thinking.

Edited, Jun 21st 2010 6:54pm by Jayjs
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#5 Jun 21 2010 at 5:19 PM Rating: Decent
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Jayjs wrote:
That wasn't in regard to your topic. I just didn't want to make a new topic.

edit: and it wasn't a good point at all. Just small observation and a bit of wishful thinking.

Edited, Jun 21st 2010 6:54pm by Jayjs


Please try to keep replies to the main topic here. I created this thread to hear people's opinions on the main point. If you wanna talk about what /nin doesn't get please go to "I literally raged when i read this" on this same forum please
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#6 Jun 21 2010 at 5:44 PM Rating: Good
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The whole Thf/Dnc backup tank thing is only really applicable pre74. Once you get Ni, Thf/Nin is a FAR superior tank than Thf/Dnc would ever be. You can do more than tank "for a few seconds" as thf/nin post with ichi+ni.

Solo is still all /nin.

If /dnc gives DW 2 at 80 there will be a nice window when /dnc would actually be the superior sub for DD (until 90 when /nin gets DW3 which is a 10% bonus which is a LOT) and have some utility with the steps and whatnot. This can be very useful in group settings where thf wont be taking hate. /Nin still king of survivablity.

There is definately potential for /dnc to shine in a number of scenarios with a little boost from sambas/steps and the occasional backup cure. But this will likely be a temporary situation until 99 comes around and turns everything around.
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#7 Jun 22 2010 at 4:50 PM Rating: Decent
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DNC gets DW3 now, possibly DW4 by 99. And they get a LOT more "enhances Dual Wield" gear than THF.

/rage

Edited, Jun 22nd 2010 7:50pm by Lobivopis
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I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#8 Jun 22 2010 at 5:17 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm embarrssed to say I'm tempted to level Dancer now over thief. Not only does it look stronger, but it's more desired.

A sad day indeed.
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#9 Jun 22 2010 at 5:54 PM Rating: Good
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I have three questions for those who want to complain about how DNC is THF+1:

1) How many DNCs does your LS bring to HNM fights?
2) Which events do you participate in that do not benefit from TH4?
3) How does DNC make up for Collaborator on fights that matter?

Anyone that is complaining about DNC with a straight face must be completely ignoring HNM.
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#10 Jun 22 2010 at 9:28 PM Rating: Excellent
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redvenomweb wrote:
I have three questions for those who want to complain about how DNC is THF+1:

1) How many DNCs does your LS bring to HNM fights?
2) Which events do you participate in that do not benefit from TH4?
3) How does DNC make up for Collaborator on fights that matter?

Anyone that is complaining about DNC with a straight face must be completely ignoring HNM.


As a THF and a DNC, I will respond to this.

1) How many THF do HNMs need? One for TH4, and 2-3 if you're zerging for Feint. If your tanks *need* SATA, they need to do some serious research into enmity.
2) Assuming you're implying only events where you are fighting one monster for one treasure pool (i.e. what most people consider HNM), every single event only benefits from *one* THF taking *one* action on the mob and then is able to warp and change jobs if time allows (or just disbanding for another job). That is the extent of benefit *only* TH4 gives.
3) DNC doesn't make up for Collaborator, but in that same breath, how exactly does THF make up for the benefit of things like Haste Samba, Quick/Box Step, and Waltzes that make them useful continuously rather than once every minute?

I'm not coming here to say that THF doesn't have a place. THF was my first 75 job and has always been a favorite of mine so I'm not trying to come into the THF forums to rag on it, but to be completely honest, HNM is a very poor example of a situation where THF can't be outperformed by DNC. That is the biggest problem with THF. While it is absolutely possible for THF to keep up with and exceed other jobs, it takes MUCH more effort to yield the same gains. DNC isn't THF+1, DNC has just been added to the already long list that has an easier time than THF.

EDIT: And one VERY important point. How much longer is HNM really going to be the gold standard? Just how difficult can Fafhogg really be when you've got an extra 24 levels under your belt? ****, Kirin is going to be in the EP range at level 99. What then?

Edited, Jun 22nd 2010 11:33pm by Mikourei
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#11 Jun 22 2010 at 9:30 PM Rating: Decent
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redvenomweb wrote:
I have three questions for those who want to complain about how DNC is THF+1:

1) How many DNCs does your LS bring to HNM fights?
2) Which events do you participate in that do not benefit from TH4?
3) How does DNC make up for Collaborator on fights that matter?

Anyone that is complaining about DNC with a straight face must be completely ignoring HNM.

1) None. But why is that important? HNM is a small part of endgame.
2) Einherjar, Sky farming, KS99, Ultima/Omega, Vrtra
3) What fights do you even need collaborator on? You shouldn't need to use it if your LS isn't ****.


Now.
Firstly, You do realise when people are saying Dnc is Thf+1 it's not because of their non-DD utility. Personally, when I say I'd rather be dnc over thief it's because of the DD potential. The two are comparable because they are similar, what with the whole daggers and ****. Dnc however now is stronger than thief.
And not only is it stronger, it's also more desirable.

Outside of feint for zergs, thief's role can be filled by a naked mule, dual boxed, with th4.
You also never need more than one thief.

Dancer on the otherhand, for every DD party you have, it's worth taking a dancer. It can't be replaced by some naked mule, dualboxed in the corner.
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#12 Jun 22 2010 at 9:38 PM Rating: Excellent
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And don't be ashamed, Noodles. DNC is a LOT of fun, and that was before all of this recent stuff. I can't even log into FFXI right now because SE won't accept my payment info. :(
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#13 Jun 22 2010 at 9:42 PM Rating: Good
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The wonderful thing about this setup is at the same time you are healing you are also doing damage
A great OP, but this is the only point I find disagreeable. I can definitely see thf/dnc in this light, but the light I would prefer to see it in is not a healer that can do damage, but a damage dealer that can heal.

Of course if we ignore 'holding back' and take death out of the equation, /dnc should win as the superior DD sub based on the acc bonus alone, not to mention the other utility. Also, does 'box step' (or any step) when stacked with SA not only stick the buff guaranteed, but also cause the SA to go off as critical damage? I would quite like this for SA/TA.

I think though, that I'm going to find little situational use for the sub. The damage that I cure from /dnc, would be more than made up for by the damage I would not take at all when /nin. And not only that, but when mitigating equal amounts of dmg on my thf/nin vs thf/dnc, I'd think that my /nin will be doing more dmg, as I won't be consuming TP for my damage mitigation.



Also I think the main draw to picking Dnc for DD situations is haste samba. But this isn't just what causes it to replace thief, but other jobs as well. I've got two really decked out friends that I've done 35-40k/hr with camping in the Skoffin pit and double pulling at Mamool Ja Staging Point. But every time we brought a dancer instead of my thief, we made more consistent exp/hr and I'd deem it better. Let's assume the Thf and Dnc are roughly equal in dmg output, and also that the Dnc's heals are not necessary. Various utility is brought to the table; Thf has TA and collab, aura steal, and feint. Dnc has animated fluorish, steps, backup emergency healing. I feel that these roughly balance out. But it's the big 5/5 Haste Samba that seems to be the tie breaker. I think this is the draw, the niche that Dnc has in single party burn setups, over other jobs.

But HNM, I really don't feel Thf is terrible on. It's situational though.. essentially comes down to if/how-often you can (are allowed to) SA and TA. When I fight HNM level mobs, I just throw on my heavy acc set and pizza and go to town. And feint seems to help my dmg more than anyone else's since I know when it's coming and have a high haste%/dmg feint set. TP gain isn't a huge issue. And when you do get TP, your WS's are ensured to do a lot of damage when you can SA/TA. I may have Mandau, but Mandalic and Shark Bite are certainly not bad for this role either.

Edited, Jun 23rd 2010 3:53am by Shamaya
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#14 Jun 22 2010 at 9:43 PM Rating: Decent
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Have you all forgotten or just plain dont care that this is a discussion as dnc being a viable sub for thf in place of nin? I'm not trying to debate whether thf or dnc is better as a main so please try to stick to topic.
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#15 Jun 22 2010 at 10:03 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Have you all forgotten or just plain dont care that this is a discussion as dnc being a viable sub for thf in place of nin? I'm not trying to debate whether thf or dnc is better as a main so please try to stick to topic.


What does it matter? Discussions are dynamic.

You do not own a thread just because you are the OP, no one cares what you are trying to do with a thread. It is what it is, and the topics discussed are what people care about.
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#16 Jun 22 2010 at 10:23 PM Rating: Decent
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I don't know Sham, on pure DD potential, excluding Mandau thiefs, I think Dnc does pull ahead.
Thief may have a better dagger selection and better selection of TP and WS gear (Although it's mainly due to hecatomb and homam, dnc can equip add-on gear and enkidu), but Dnc might possibly have another trait of DW over thief/nin (if it goes up to DW3), and more importantly, to supplement their standard TP>WS damage, thief only has SA+TA, Dancer on the other hand has the option to sub /Sam for 20STP (w/rajas, which will make a large difference) and then has meditate (60TP), Saber Dance (50% Double attack, diminishing by 10% every minute), no foot rise + reverse flourish (giving a max of 75TP), building flourish to boost WSs on top of Conserve TP (And crit att boost, which thf gets too), and that is excluding all the general party buffs (Stebs + Haste Samba) that it gives, because in an ideal party on thief you'd have a dancer aswell.
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#17 Jun 22 2010 at 10:57 PM Rating: Good
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SDarkshayde wrote:
Have you all forgotten or just plain dont care that this is a discussion as dnc being a viable sub for thf in place of nin? I'm not trying to debate whether thf or dnc is better as a main so please try to stick to topic.


/DNC has always been viable in some situations, especially against mobs that either tore through shadows with low per-hit damage or mobs that spammed shadow wiping moves, the only difference now is that you can DW with /DNC.

/NIN gives you the exact same benefit as it did before the update. You get DW2 and Utsusemi. That's it.

/DNC gives you Accuracy Bonus and DW2. I could mention Steps/Sambas/Waltzes/Flourishes, but in very few instances would this be relevant to the benefit of DNC as a subjob. Sambas are canceled by any other additional effect and do not stack (which would be detrimental if you have a DNC in the party). Steps take time away from melee DoT and TP gain (even with RF you should be able to TP faster than using steps and RF) and in longer fights could mess with a DNC's TP gain (considering if you're stacking a Step the DNC is also using it could reduce his accumulation of FMs). Waltzes are marginally beneficial (with Healing Waltz having the most utility), but in any situation where you are weighing /NIN vs. /DNC, you are more than likely going to have a dedicated healer. As for Flourishes, while VF may be useful at 90, very few situations will benefit from you gaining FMs for Animated/Desperate Flourish instead of meleeing (RF having been covered earlier).

So is it viable? Yes, in situations where you're not going to be worrying about needing shadows, /DNC surpasses /NIN because of Accuracy Bonus, with all of the DNC non-melee aspects being a marginal (if minor) boost.
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#18 Jun 22 2010 at 11:02 PM Rating: Decent
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LordTrey wrote:
Quote:
Have you all forgotten or just plain dont care that this is a discussion as dnc being a viable sub for thf in place of nin? I'm not trying to debate whether thf or dnc is better as a main so please try to stick to topic.


What does it matter? Discussions are dynamic.

You do not own a thread just because you are the OP, no one cares what you are trying to do with a thread. It is what it is, and the topics discussed are what people care about.


Also ^ this.
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#19 Jun 23 2010 at 6:16 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Also, does 'box step' (or any step) when stacked with SA not only stick the buff guaranteed, but also cause the SA to go off as critical damage? I would quite like this for SA/TA.


No, it only guarantees the Step will land. No damage at all.
#20 Jun 23 2010 at 9:25 AM Rating: Good
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Wow, double post.

Edited, Jun 23rd 2010 10:34am by Meldi
#21 Jun 23 2010 at 9:34 AM Rating: Good
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nevermind, misunderstood.

Noodles wrote:
I don't know Sham, on pure DD potential, excluding Mandau thiefs, I think Dnc does pull ahead.
Thief may have a better dagger selection and better selection of TP and WS gear (Although it's mainly due to hecatomb and homam, dnc can equip add-on gear and enkidu), but Dnc might possibly have another trait of DW over thief/nin (if it goes up to DW3), and more importantly, to supplement their standard TP>WS damage, thief only has SA+TA, Dancer on the other hand has the option to sub /Sam for 20STP (w/rajas, which will make a large difference) and then has meditate (60TP), Saber Dance (50% Double attack, diminishing by 10% every minute), no foot rise + reverse flourish (giving a max of 75TP), building flourish to boost WSs on top of Conserve TP (And crit att boost, which thf gets too), and that is excluding all the general party buffs (Stebs + Haste Samba) that it gives, because in an ideal party on thief you'd have a dancer aswell.


I think potentially dnc has much more damage capabilities, however, it greatly depends on what they are using their TP for. The dagger issue has largely been equalized, and to some extent gear as well, so in terms of pure DD potential they have more acc than us, but even lower attack due to less skill. We still have an advantage in that we get large amounts of Haste+Acc on some key pieces (Homam hands/feet/legs, skadi legs), but they now have options for body and head that equal us. If they are in a healing role, definately thf would win in the DD category. If they are in a debuff role, we would probably still win, because of so much JA pause, but it would be close. If they are in a pure DD role, it would be really freaking close, and they might have a slight edge. The only problem is, if they are using their abilities to raise their DD potential, they are also raising ours.
#22 Jun 23 2010 at 10:09 AM Rating: Excellent
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I tried THF/DNC in a party @ Lufaise Meadows last night with DRG/SAM WAR/SAM WHM BLM BRD. I had to change subs after a few pulls(greater than 5, less than 20). I was a mp sponge despite saving ws for ta(and thus wasting a lot of tp) and would often have to wait on SA so I wouldn't pull hate. As /NIN, I had greater freedom: WSing any time I wanted, using SAWS if they lined up, and sharing hate more equally with others. I actually died more on Nin(triple attck from abraxas is evil) but that was probably because I spnt more time on /NIN.

My conclusion so far is that in tp burn, especially on piercing weak, a competent THF will pull hate too often to use /DNC. If you have a good dedicaded tank, you might be able to pull it off.
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#23 Jun 23 2010 at 11:18 AM Rating: Good
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Noodles wrote:
1) None. But why is that important? HNM is a small part of endgame.

So if I understand you correctly, RoZ kings, sky gods, jailers, CoP wyrms, Cerb/Hydra/Khim, ZNM, and VNM are a "small part" of endgame?

Quote:
2) Einherjar, Sky farming, KS99, Ultima/Omega, Vrtra

You farm water and diorite without TH4?

Quote:
3) What fights do you even need collaborator on? You shouldn't need to use it if your LS isn't sh*t.

...do you understand what Collaborator does? Asking what fights we "need" Collaborator for is like asking what fights we "need" Wizard's Roll for. Collaborator increases your DDs' output. It's useful on every non-zerg fight.

Quote:
Personally, when I say I'd rather be dnc over thief it's because of the DD potential. The two are comparable because they are similar, what with the whole daggers and sh*t. Dnc however now is stronger than thief.

Prove it.
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#24 Jun 23 2010 at 11:23 AM Rating: Decent
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Mikourei wrote:
3) DNC doesn't make up for Collaborator, but in that same breath, how exactly does THF make up for the benefit of things like Haste Samba, Quick/Box Step, and Waltzes that make them useful continuously rather than once every minute?

Funny how these none of those things have changed in the last update, and yet DNC was utterly shunned for anything but merits. Please do explain.

Ultimately, you can talk all you want about DNC's supposed damage advantage; the bottom line is that:

a) DNC is still far behind actual DDs (regardless of its relative position to THF)
b) THF has been and will continue to be invited for reasons other than its damage output
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#25 Jun 23 2010 at 11:54 AM Rating: Good
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b) THF has been and will continue to be invited for reasons other than its damage output


Those "things" are still swap in for TH and depending on mob Feint. The complaint has never been "thf is never USED in endgame" it was always "We're TH/Feint whores and nothing else".

I really dont give 2 ***** about who parses 2% more in a merit party. SE did not address the primary complaint thf has had for years. As noodles has said and most agree with, 90% of the use of thf in endgame can be replaced by a TH4+feint mule. That is discouraging as a thf. Seeing dnc get DD buffs thf has desired is just salt in the wound, but mostly irrelivant except for the mental sting of it. People are just taking out their frustration on the dnc update because we didnt really get **** to help our situation.

Lay off the dancers. They needed what they got. Thf just needed something that cant be replaced by a mule.
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#26 Jun 23 2010 at 11:55 AM Rating: Excellent
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redvenomweb wrote:
Mikourei wrote:
3) DNC doesn't make up for Collaborator, but in that same breath, how exactly does THF make up for the benefit of things like Haste Samba, Quick/Box Step, and Waltzes that make them useful continuously rather than once every minute?

Funny how these none of those things have changed in the last update, and yet DNC was utterly shunned for anything but merits. Please do explain.

Well, tehcnically they can now heal from outside the alliance, so there IS a difference there atleast.
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