Forum Settings
       
1 2 Next »
Reply To Thread

TwashtarFollow

#52 Jul 18 2010 at 8:33 AM Rating: Good
Scholar
***
1,678 posts
The +evis dagger isn't really all that great, especially for DNC. At most it's going to be 2% more Evisceration damage than the sTP dagger. That's at a highly unrealistic 50:50 TP:WS split. The sTP dagger has the option of using other WSs, as well as providing about 8% more TP than the evis damage dagger. Not only is it better for building skillchains (you brought it up), it's better for any time you are sitting on TP past 100. The more you sit on TP the better the sTP dagger is, and you can't tell me that DNC doesn't sit on TP when soloing.
____________________________
Dooom wrote:
BG elitists <3 haste.

Allatards/uber casuals hate elitists.

Allatards/uber casuals hate haste, as valuing it would acknowledge that elitists are right


kerberoz wrote:
People don't hate emo kids because they're "misunderstood." People hate emo kids because they're useless.


Realix wrote:
PUP is an average to above average DD... when not in a zerg situation... or on particularly hard targets... and when properly configured... on windsday... with a RDM...
#53 Jul 18 2010 at 9:30 AM Rating: Good
***
2,270 posts
Well as a thf, my thoughts are obviously from the thf perspective :P

Talk to anyone with skadi's legs and homam to find out if STP matters for us xD

I would obviously say the dakinis have a leg up, but not enough to warrent the exponentially higher time investment. I guess i see this as teh new magnet knife. Really really good and dirt cheap (by comparison) and still holds up exceptionally well. I also like it because it is the lowest delay dagger available through magian trials. I REALLY miss my sirocco speed ; ;
____________________________
Aanalaty, Mithra of San d'Oria
99Thf/99Drg/99Rng/95Pld/Secret Job 92
Bonecraft-100+3 7/29/08
Lu Shangs-5/28/08
Twashtar-90
Ryunohige-75: 1/7/2012
Mandau-75: 3/9/2012

Maat-1/1 Thf Meleed (pansies steal)
Some of mah gearz: http://www.ffxiah.com/player/Lakshmi/Aanalaty#item-sets
Join 'People Against The Heart Snatcher' and help put Thfs on the right P.A.T.H.S. today!
#54 Jul 18 2010 at 2:22 PM Rating: Excellent
***
3,775 posts
Quote:

I would obviously say the dakinis have a leg up, but not enough to warrent the exponentially higher time investment. I guess i see this as teh new magnet knife. Really really good and dirt cheap (by comparison) and still holds up exceptionally well.


I disagree with the bolded part there Banalaty. I agree the Fusetto is easier to burn through but not exponentially so since you can do other stuff while waiting for Kila day changes. sTP +8 Fusetto means weaponskilling 1,400 times which can be burned from start to finish but it's still time consuming (100 weaponskills per hour == 14 hours as an example). The first 2 dakini trials are easy despite needing weather and I transformed two peelers in under an hour each. There are almost always people in Uli range doing peelers and ice weather is like 85% uptime. Vunkerl (s) is a gathering point for a lot of trials (easily 4-8) and I knocked that stage out in an hour each time with pick up groups too. Maybe I'm lucky but on Fenrir we have a lot of people working on magians weapons. I killed 200 lizards in cape terrigan through two thunder days with a pick up alliance that wrecked the zone (138 lizards one day and the trial was done before noon the next). Last night 14 people ran up to sky PUG style and knocked out 80 or so golems. I did my Qubtrub kills over 4 thunder days with PUG's in the reef. The key difference here is that the Fusetto requires you to weaponskill 1400 times whereas the Kila's only require you to be in a party/alliance that kills meaning 2-4 mobs going silmultaneously. Pick up groups have made my Dakini's relatively easy and most people will join me if I send them a tell (people rarely refuse teaming up, but I'm proactive and I actually send tells asking to form a group or invite them rather than sit idly by). So while I DO agree the Fusetto can be done faster I disagree it's exponentially easier and I think the benefits are worth the extra time investment. Once you finish a Kila it's going to be relatively painless to upkeep in the future because a whole server will be doing it together coupled with the fact that it should only be two trials per update if we continue at current rates. The Kila's don't require any NM camping and you can plan ahead to work on them if you know the vanadiel clock (mithrapride, alla clock, etc etc) making them only slightly less convenient to work on than the fusetto.

Now as for TWASHTER... THAT is something I DO believe requires exponentially greater effort and then some 100x over. As sad as it is the Fusetto (both Fusetto's) are better than the D 39/delay 201 Kartika's and unless you can get 50 glaviod shells that's a roadblock which will remain permanently. In contrast the fusetto's will probably be expanded upon next update. Personally I would rather a Kila than a Fusetto because if I need accuracy the Thunder Kila >>> sTP Fusetto, and if I don't need accuracy I think a flame Kila will outperform sTP + 8 fusetto in the long run too. This is my own personal opinion on the non renegade path magian daggers and others may have varying results, but I stand by my Kila's and I still like them best.

Edited, Jul 18th 2010 4:46pm by Melphina
____________________________
[ffxisig]56619[/ffxisig]

There are 10 kinds of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.
#55 Jul 18 2010 at 3:56 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
**
485 posts
lobivopis wrote:
Historically SE has always made good THF gear a gigantic pain in the ass. I've begun to seriously believe that SE doesn't like THF. Or at least someone on the development team doesn't.

Except that the exact opposite is true in this case. NM Cuelebre is a rather easy kill and dagger is high drop rate. It was first killed and posted about yesterday by my ls member Tsolamogola with only 3 member. rdm/sch, rdm/sch, blm/rdm. Today we went back and killed very fast with 8 member. Whm helps a lot. We are now 2/2 on Auric dagger.

Dagger was tested, again by an ls member Shosei, to have 4-6% dual-wield. It will probably be 5% in the end. Dagger is pretty awesome and it is going to be my new off-hand weapon in tp-burn type situations.

I would post a pic of me holding the dagger but photobucket won't work for me today........ in before POIDH. It looks very nice. And extra bonus is that I don't have to spend extra time on trials.

So yea SE really decided to give thf a nice present this time.

Again all credit for this NM goes to Tsolamogola and Shosei.

http://www.bluegartr.com/forum/showthread.php?t=95534&page=15

under post number 439

Edited, Jul 19th 2010 12:06am by Breaze
#56 Jul 18 2010 at 6:04 PM Rating: Good
***
3,775 posts
Quote:
Dagger was tested, again by an ls member Shosei, to have 4-6% dual-wield. It will probably be 5% in the end. Dagger is pretty awesome and it is going to be my new off-hand weapon in tp-burn type situations.


AHHHH Finally a situation where I can play the math game. This is gonna be fun. It's been too long since I've found some daggers to play around with maths on.

OPENING NOTES: I am comparing only swings/hr and other basic dagger diifferences. I will use Kila/Kila and Auric/Kila as the only two examples. Since thunder and flame kila both have identical delay swings/hr can be calculated regardless of the Kila choice. The largest difference between auric/kila and kila/kila is thus the speed versus the secondary stat mods. In this case the second kila can be omitted by process of associativity (meaning secondary stats only apply to the difference of ONE kila versus the auric dagger).

Well then time to play some number games to see just how these stack up.

Math's below. Conclusion is at the bottom
-------------------------------------------------------
Since we're looking at speed as a factor I'll begin by defining a haste/dual wield set
Example haste set: dual wield mirke + suppa (8%) + 15% magic haste and 22% gear haste + brutal earring (2.48 swings/round average with multi procs)

Total Dual Wield == 23%
Total haste == 37%

Auric Dagger/Kila <--- dual wield is + 13% here because of auric dagger
391 x 0.72 x 0.63 == 177.35
177.35/60 == 2.955
3600/2.955 == 1218
1218 x 2.48 == 3020 swings/hr


Kila/Kila

380 x 0.77 x 0.63 == 184.33
184.33/60 == 3.072
3600/3.072 == 1171
1171 x 2.48 == 2904 swings/hr

Difference in swings/hr == 116
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Secondary stat considerations

-----TP per hit with 2x kila is 4.7 whereas tp per hit with auric/kila is 4.6 (this is before sTP)
-----Thunder Kila raises accuracy by 7.5% which is 217 swings in the 2x kila model. Furthermore 6 dex is worth approximately 1.5 ws on evisc/DE/ManStab and 3 wsc on shark bite in addition to the enhancement to sneak attack's base damage.
-----Flame kila raises fSTR by 1.5, meaning 1 base damage on 50% mobs and 2 base Damage on the other half (this applies to both daggers). Furthermore 19 attack is approximately 6% increase in average pDIF.
-----Auric/Kila has base damage 39 in the main hand which is 1 stronger than kila/kila, however once you consider fSTR and wsc mods the kila's may have equal to or higher base damage in the main hand depending on fSTR cap and wsc rounding (this fSTR/wsc bonus also applies to the offhand strikes in weaponskills)
--------------------------------------------
Scenarios where you add even more haste:

Haste is exponential and dual wield further enhances this. If you consider a scenario with 27% magic haste (march + spell haste) and the previous defined gear you have the following

Auric/kila -- 3737 swings/hr
Kila/Kila -- 3589 swings/hr

A difference of 148 swings/hr up from 116
However the counter is that 7.5% accuracy is now worth 269 swings in 2x kila up from 217. In this case the accuracy bonus of the kila is worth more than the change in dual wield enhancement.

If you consider extreme haste with 25% gear haste, double march, magic haste, plus dancer haste -- 62% haste plus mirke/suppa and brutal you have this

Auric/Kila -- 5007 swings/hr
Kila/Kila -- 4694 swings/hr

A difference of 313 swings/hr
However the counter is that 7.5% accuracy is now worth 352 swings in 2x kila. In this case the speed begins to catch up to the accuracy enhancement but not enough to break even ground and you'll almost never see higher haste levels than this (soul voiced 2x march is the only exception).

Closing notes: This example assumes uncapped accuracy. That's a duh and by now you probably know that but if accuracy is capped the thunder kila is less powerful. Of course the counter is that when accuracy is capped you can dual wield two flame kila's which is a difference of fSTR + 3 (three base damage increase) on 100% of mobs and 38 attack is approximately 13% increase in average pDIF. So take that as you will with a grain of salt.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Conclusion: Hmm, this isn't easy for me to say. From the basic numbers the kila/kila combo looks stronger than the auric/kila combo because if your accuracy is uncapped 15 accuracy (thunder kila) is a bigger boost than the auric's speed, and if your accuracy is capped you can dual wield two flame kila's which is also a bigger increase in overall damage (fSTR +3 on every mob tips the scales at 95% accuracy). The counter is that the auric dagger has a high drop rate off a fairly easy abyssean NM and doesn't require you to spend time on the magian's. The two combos are fairly close and to get the most out of a kila/kila setup you would need one thunder and two flame kila's to account for capped versus uncapped accuracy (sh*t is situational). I suppose each person should take these numbers and make their own decisions. I wouldn't knock anyone for choosing the auric dagger over the kila combos; thats for sure. But I still think the maximum potential (between the two setups) lies in a kila build, so if you're willing to put in the extra effort the Kila's would still be better in the end. Personally I'm enjoying my Kila trials since alliance tp burns are just my kind of thing. But my flame dakini is fast approaching 200 flans... and that's one trial I'm not looking forward to at all so my entrainment with magians will probably change then.

Edited, Jul 18th 2010 8:32pm by Melphina
____________________________
[ffxisig]56619[/ffxisig]

There are 10 kinds of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.
#57 Jul 18 2010 at 6:41 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
**
485 posts
You can do math all day long but the decision is pretty easy if you ask me. Dual-wield 5% is a rare(ish) stat. And even more rare on a dagger. Actually this is the only dagger which has it at this point in the game. You can get accuracy in other slots. The new abyssea gears have lots of good accuracy options. And I did not even mention pizza yet.

Also in your math I don't see the ws frequency for each setup. Or am I missing something now?
#58 Jul 18 2010 at 6:57 PM Rating: Default
Thief's Knife
*****
15,049 posts
What about when we get DW3? +5% DW on top of 33% is more beneficial than +5% on top of 23%.
____________________________
Final Fantasy XI 12-14-11 Update wrote:
Adjust the resolution of menus.
The main screen resolution for "FINAL FANTASY XI" is dependent on the "Overlay Graphics Resolution" setting.
If the Overlay Graphics Resolution is set higher than the Menu Resolution, menus will be automatically resized.


I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#59 Jul 18 2010 at 7:43 PM Rating: Good
***
3,775 posts
Quote:
You can do math all day long but the decision is pretty easy if you ask me. Dual-wield 5% is a rare(ish) stat. And even more rare on a dagger. Actually this is the only dagger which has it at this point in the game. You can get accuracy in other slots. The new abyssea gears have lots of good accuracy options. And I did not even mention pizza yet.


Oh no, I'm not denying how good the auric dagger is. It's a really nice dagger. It's just that adding dual wield reduction to a high delay weapon feels to me like a cheap parlor trick to make you think you're getting something you're not. There is little difference between the concept of creating a weapon that enhances speed and giving it a higher delay than there is creating a good weapon with lower delay to begin with. If for example you consider a dagger with 39 damage/350 delay and 10% dual wield reduction it would still be a piece of crap. Under no circumstances could 10% dual wield ever make up for the weapon starting at 350 delay. This is why I wanted to run the numbers... because I wanted to see how the 5% dual wield enhancement fared against the fact that it has 11 delay more than the kila's to start with. The Auric dagger is a good weapon and I don't have any problems with it. However

Quote:
Dual-wield 5% is a rare(ish) stat. And even more rare on a dagger.


Just because it's a rare stat doesn't make it good. If you put conserve TP on a dagger with terrible stats it would still be a terrible dagger. The Auric Dagger is far from terrible (it's really **** nice). It's the fact that they had to go and cancel out much of the benefits by putting delay reduction on a weapon with intrinsically high delay to start with that grinds my nerves. It's counterproductive.

Quote:
Also in your math I don't see the ws frequency for each setup. Or am I missing something now?


Since we can't come to an agreement on a true model for tp use I felt it best to just put the tp per hit and swings/hr up there. Noodles has made a powerful argument in the past that tp/hr is not a good model but has admitted that rounds to 100% is also flawed. so we have this

Quote:
-----TP per hit with 2x kila is 4.7 whereas tp per hit with auric/kila is 4.6 (this is before sTP)


Each person's individual sTP count can change that greatly. For example, with brutal/rajas/skadi's chausses two kila's will be getting 5.3 tp/hit ( 4.7 x 1.13 == 5.311 floored to 5.3) whereas auric/kila will only get 5.1 per hit (4.6 x 1.13 == 5.198 floored to 5.1 (TERRIBLE rounding)). Weaponskill frequency is subject to more variables than almost any other math and is the most complex subject I can think of short of complete dagger analysis's. I've drawn the line at weaponskill frequency so I can keep it a bit more simple.

Quote:
What about when we get DW3? +5% DW on top of 33% is more beneficial than +5% on top of 23%.


It is!! This is true. Unfortunately we don't have dual wield 3 yet and by the time we get to that point a lot may (or may not have) changed. The auric dagger will forever remain level 80 with its current stats unless it gets enhanced somehow which I don't think will happen. By the time we're level 90 we will have level 90 daggers and at that point auric dagger will be 10 levels lower than the newest stuff of the future. We saw how much changed with just ONE level increase (a whole fuggin lot) and we're going to be getting two more until then. I'm just keeping focused on the here and now because of this, because s-e can (and probably will) be throwing more curve balls at us in future updates.

Edited, Jul 18th 2010 9:50pm by Melphina
____________________________
[ffxisig]56619[/ffxisig]

There are 10 kinds of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.
#60 Jul 19 2010 at 12:18 PM Rating: Good
Scholar
***
1,983 posts
I'm definitely craving the Auric dagger as it's basically equal to the current Twashtar and the Twashtar is... kind of, lets be honest. Like, impossible to get just about?

But Breaze, really ehh. Its up on my server. I was gonna go do it tonight but it wasnt up so we did something else, and now it is up and I dont have much time on the clock >,<. I have no problems w/ mage/kite low-manning stuff but. I'm wondering where did Tsola kite it? It looks like its dead on the east side of the mountain that it spawns near. But on the east side of that mountain there are slimes. On the west, there are Nauls. Mostly worried about the Nauls. It doesn't seem like you could safely kite it around the mountain without either risking aggro or having to turn around which could be dangerous depending on what it chooses to cast. Can you find out where he kited it exactly?
____________________________
Shamaya, Asura
#61 Jul 19 2010 at 12:36 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
**
485 posts
Okay shamaya. The NM pops at E-8/9 on this map:
http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Abyssea_-_Tahrongi/Maps

Tele to number 3 and then sneak, invis. Nauls agro sight and sound. And strangely enough you can hide from Nauls if you do get agro. The NM is true sound.
If you do this with 3 people you might want to kite it. NE from the pop area at around F-8 there is a big rock. You can kite it safely around that rock.
But if you have a whm and a brd or cor then a rdm/sch can straight tank it. Stoneskin is great for this fight since you won't get interrupted by the NM.

Acid bolts land on the NM but are kind of pointless since you can't use your weapons. I have no idea if rng is good damage on this NM. But I do know magic works well.

Sadly thf role is there to land TH mostly. If you bring lost of mages thf/brd or thf/cor would be good for this NM. Thf/rng probably won't work very well.

Good luck Shamaya
#62 Jul 19 2010 at 1:38 PM Rating: Good
Scholar
***
1,983 posts
Thanks for the info Breaze that really helps a ton ^^. Unfortunately with the last 50 minutes on my clock today my friend drug me over to Chasmic Hornet tonight so I don't have time for this NM today :/. So you drag it NE? Yeah I thought it might be a little dangerous to fight it where it spawns. I was going to do it kited style and I had already geared my Thf/Cor to try that out too. I don't really feel bad about Thf not being able to melee that mob. Thief can tank so many NM's that have come out in the last couple years, can't have it be useful on everything. It's always useful to have TH though, and I'm sure Thf/Cor dmg would be welcome in this fight. I was going to do it kited style, but I could always go Cor or Brd instead of Thf and just tank it on my alt's Rdm (I don't have fully leveled sch sub though :( ). I'm sooo eager to fight it. Sucks that I know it's up and flying around yet am gonna have to wait a couple days to do it >,<.

Speaking of Chasmic Hornet we died at 11% >,<. My friend wanted me to bring my Rdm as /drk and we went Thf/Nin and Pld/War. Contrary to what Wiki indicated though, it looked like Thf in max evasion took a lot less dmg than Pld. Basically had floored its accuracy entirely, it was wiffing like a too-weak. But the hate reset from the 100-fists TP move it does constantly made it rough to recover from the Rdm dying the first time.

Thanks again for the valuable info ^^
____________________________
Shamaya, Asura
#63 Jul 19 2010 at 2:01 PM Rating: Good
****
4,719 posts
Auric dagger seems more viable for DNCs, they get the DW IV trait at 80 whereas THFs won't get III from /nin until 90 in the future. DNCs will maybe even get DW V.

Edited, Jul 19th 2010 3:11pm by Jevilwolf
____________________________
Reiterpallasch wrote:
Horst needs a 1 minute, 15 foot doom aura. Get in, get out, or @#%^ing die.
Calmus wrote:
...draining with sambas is kind of like you smack the thing and as you smack blood flies out... normally the blood would just you know fall and be red an what-not, but, with the samba your all whacked out and decide to drink the blood as it flys out. thus not adding MORE damage just taking more advantage of your damage. at least thats my take on it.
#64 Jul 19 2010 at 2:26 PM Rating: Good
Sage
***
1,252 posts
I'm gonna have to go with Mel on this one...even though auric's stats look good, in the long run it will be overshadowed by the kila by the next update and beyond. Even more so if the kilas get another delay reduction (happened with dakini's when upgrading, so probably will happen again)

If I had to choose anything to repace a kila it would be the STP fusetto. Less base damage than other options, but decent delay and since it's a magian dagger it will probably be upgradable in the future.

If I happen to come across an auric dagger I'll probably lot it and use it on DNC at least until the next level cap...after that it will probably get mannequinned...or tossed.

But hey...at least it's shiney ^^
____________________________
DNC: 90 THF: 90 RNG: Semi retired @90 RDM: Retired@75

lolblog: http://mithrasmemoirs.blogspot.com/
Elemental Magian Dagger Guide
Gearsets/etc
#65 Jul 19 2010 at 5:05 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
**
485 posts
kalisa wrote:
in the long run it will be overshadowed by the kila by the next update and beyond.

The problem is that we don't know exactly what will happen.

This is my biggest beef with magian weapons right now. We don't know what will happen. OAT dagger might get a big boost next update. Or the STP dagger might get it. Or the kila's might get it. I worry that at lvl 99 one dagger is going to stand out over the rest. **** it might not be a magian dagger at all.
And then when I invested so much time in a certain magian dagger it is going to be sub-par. Just because SE decided to buff up a particular dagger. And it will be exactly the one which I did not pick at level 75/80.

So for now I am going to stay far away from all magian daggers except Vajra. I know SE won't lose sight of relic and mythic weapons.

I am going with daggers that are good now and Auric is the easy choice for me.

Edited, Jul 20th 2010 1:08am by Breaze
#66 Jul 19 2010 at 6:01 PM Rating: Good
Sage
***
1,252 posts
Yeah, I agree that mere speculation will have its drawbacks, but at the same time you have to keep 2 things in mind. 1. The history of the upgrades to magian daggers so far, which has followed certain trends. Sure there is no ABSOLUTE way of knowing what they will do next with each set of upgrades, but logically (i know, lol SE logic) they will continue the additions the way they have been (adding base damage, attributes, and stats etc).

And 2: Choosing one extreme over the other is kinda counter productive. Again, I agree that we can't predict exactly which dagger will be the absolute best, but should that hold you back from choosing one now? I personally know that my fire and thunder kilas will not be the absolute top dagger combo (but I have no time for a mandau/vajra/twashtar/terpsichore/) but its a combo that suits my needs as is for the time being. On the other hand, if one or both of these end up to be really REALLY good in the end...one who has adopted the other side of the mentality will have to go through quite a bit of work from scratch just to get one. (I am currently kicking myself for not starting both a twashtar and armageddon sooner ; ;)

tl;dr Not saying one should just jump on magian daggers as I did, nor am I saying that one should completely forsake them either...
____________________________
DNC: 90 THF: 90 RNG: Semi retired @90 RDM: Retired@75

lolblog: http://mithrasmemoirs.blogspot.com/
Elemental Magian Dagger Guide
Gearsets/etc
#67 Jul 19 2010 at 9:52 PM Rating: Excellent
***
3,775 posts
I am a fan of the Kila's because they are a safe investment. There is a trend in the magian's weapons which is easy to see.

------------------------------------------
................................................... High Damage Path
.................. Renegade
................................................... Attacks multiple times path
.........................................................................................
Peeler
..................................................
....................................................Light Affinity (wind, fire, thunder or light) --->> Lock in one specific element and continue strengthening that affinity
.................... Dakini
....................................................Darkness affinity (ice, earth, water or darkness) -->> Lock in one specific element and continue strengthening that affinity
..................................................
..................................................
..................................................
......................... Weaponskill damage enhancement path
Fusetto
............................ STP path
------------------------------------------------

This is the most basic outline of the magian's weapons and I've no doubt this trend will continue (remember, Kila is level 80 so it's a higher level weapon than a dakini). The Kila pathes are set in stone and are unlikely to change. Each additional trial will increase the weapons affinity to its element (higher base damage and more strength/attack or dex/accuracy or agility/evasion and possibly reduced delay). This path is unlikely to falter. Interestingly enough the fusetto weaponskil damage path is intriguing, because if they enhance evisceration damage to deal 15%... 20%... 25% additional damage that could hold potential. I've considered working on a weaponskill fusetto in this light but I'd rather wait to see for sure.

I never post with the intention to ruffle feathers but I WILL give my honest opinion and when I run numbers I don't always like the results either. However whether I like the results or no it does not make them any less true so I accept what I get and move on. The auric dagger is very nice, but the fact that it has an intrinsically high delay to start with is a turnoff and I agree with this

Jevilwolf wrote
Quote:
Auric dagger seems more viable for DNCs, they get the DW IV trait at 80 whereas THFs won't get III from /nin until 90 in the future. DNCs will maybe even get DW V.


The auric dagger is better for dancers than it is for thieves. They get dual wield 4 but with only dual wield 2 at our disposal it just isn't as good.

Shamaya wrote:
Quote:
I'm definitely craving the Auric dagger as it's basically equal to the current Twashtar and the Twashtar is... kind of, lets be honest. Like, impossible to get just about?


No, it's not as good as the current Twashter and for good reason. S-E made this a high drop rate dagger on an easy to kill abyssean nm whereas Twashter will require months of hardcore effort with full shell support!!! to get. Damage 42 delay 176 versus damage 39 delay 201 and 5% dual wield is not on equal footing and Twashter is still probably in the vicinity of 5-10% increase in performance over Auric (very rough estimate here). I will not deny that the auric dagger is good (it is!!!), however for a thief it is not GREAT like it would be for a dancer. The current dagger selections have a very rough heirarchy with several tiers having a distinctive cutoff from the levels above and below.

---------------------------------
Tier 1: Mandau: Vajra
Tier 2: Twashter
Tier 3: Flame Kila: Thunder Kila: Auric Dagger: OAT and OA 2-3 Panz
Tier 4: Fusetto : Blau Dolch :
Tier 5: Kartika : Flame Dakini : X's Knife: Thunder Dakini: Sirocco Kukri : Perseus Harpe
----------------------------------

This is only a very ROUGH hierarchy and should NOT be taken as law. There are going to be differences in performance within each tier and this is not absolute (dual wielding both the OAT and OA 2-3 Panz is a bad idea for example because the loss of base damage coupled with multi procs being lost from job trait interference and etc etc will **** this over horribly. X's knife is a wild card as well and has a wider variance of potential from the others based on what you're doing) but it's a general hierarchy that holds true. I place the auric dagger in the third bracket because it's good and comparable to the others, but it's still not as good as Twashter.

Edited, Jul 20th 2010 9:48am by Melphina
____________________________
[ffxisig]56619[/ffxisig]

There are 10 kinds of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.
#68 Jul 20 2010 at 2:12 AM Rating: Good
Scholar
***
1,983 posts
My bad, yeah I didn't really do any math. Subtle blow all aside, Mandau(+4)/Twashtar DPS is about 3.7% higher than Mandau/Auric. Twash/Kila is about 3.9% higher than Auric/Kila. Mandau/Twash & Mandau/Auric, delay with no haste and 23% base DW is 135 for both combinations. After the next DW3 and before considering future changes, Mandau/Twashtar will be at 117 and /Auric will only be surprisingly slightly ahead (truncation), at 116.

I think there's more to the weapon comparison math of course, but I will agree that the Acc Kila is a very valuable asset. I'd like to compare Auric vs Fire Kila in situations where your pDif and fStr isn't already high/capped. But generally Auric will become better closer to the cap (unless you're talking about the tricky territories of atk/def where pDif gives higher vs lower returns). I'm thinking that in lolSalvage, I could use Auric dagger on things like Gears for example. Stuff that is weak to piercing, that I have high acc and pDif on, and that my Ridill might miss. Can't say when Auric would be better, but assuming there are times where Fire Kila > Auric Dagger, the following weapons would all be useful,

Thunder Kila -> Fire Kila -> Auric Dagger -> lolMcRidill

That is, as your hit rate and pDif increase, the weapons on the right become more favorable. As they decrease, the weapons on the left become favorable.

Similarly, at least for Mandau, fight vs disengaged time would dictate the following,
Auric/Twashtar -> OAT -> 2-3x -> Kclub

Assuming hit rate isn't a problem and depending on some DPS consideration, as fight time becomes lower and disengage time becomes greater, the weapons on the right start becoming more attractive, at least as Mandau offhands, and in situations where you can stack mercies.

Possibly up to 8 possible offhands to use, depending on conditions like hit rate, pDif, engage vs unengage, and piercing weakness.


They've given us a ton of flexibility with systems and gear as of late. More and more situationally sh*t is coming into play more than ever before. Can even consider the new high acc and attack equips, for example. It could become possible to create decent multi-hit WS sets vs IT++ mobs (when you cant stack SA/TA). One could use high acc/atk+ pieces for IT++ mobs, and high WSC pieces for lesser mobs.

My biggest concerns are still with Auric vs Thunder Kila, Fire Kila, and OAT Parazonium. Given that I know I can use them all (ever-slightly skeptical of Fire Kila though), I want to try and obtain them all ;x **** I still use X's Knife, even. At the start of an NM fight for spike hate after pre-building TP.

Edited, Jul 20th 2010 8:13am by Shamaya
____________________________
Shamaya, Asura
#69 Jul 20 2010 at 7:48 AM Rating: Good
***
2,270 posts
I agree with that. I LOVE that there are so many VIABLE options now. There isnt Blau/Sirocco and everything else (X's honerable mention). Virtually any combination of (excluding relic/mythic/empyrean) Fire/Thunder/OAT Para/Fusetto/7%DA Para will kick ass. Each will pull ahead of another depending on situational factors but ANY combo will be a strong combo everywhere. I cant express how much i like this trend. With the 2handers its a little less variety because they are bound to a single weapon for all of their DPS and WS damage. The complexities of main/offhand in combination really open the field to any of these choices.

My original plan was Twash/Paraz(OAT), but after realizing the wall that is glavoid, I began work on a STP fusetto last week, which i finished yesterday. Fusetto was easier for me given scheduling (cant sit around for X day) and ability to do on my own time solo. (I also have a friend that lets me borrow his Kclub every now and then....which helps XD).

Long story short, I think I will settle for STPFusetto/Paraz(OAT) once i get more verthandi eyes which i am fondly thinking of as my crayzee TP build :P But the beauty of it is i dont feel gimp. I havent touched the dakini line, and it looks like Ill be fine. Others may have dakinis but no fusetto or paraz. And thats great. I love that you can literally choose a direction to take your thf and (as of now) they are all viable options.

On the one hand I am thinking about a thunder dakini just because later down the road by 99......sheesh. Maybe like 15 dex/30acc at this rate. That will be an invaluable tool. But to keep up, maybe STP fusetto will keep a nice speed bonus over other trials (currently lowest delay magian..../dreams of a 150 delay/crazy STP lv 99) with some equally obscene STP boost maybe +40stp or something.

The future is uncertain and no one wants their effort to be made obsolete (Like how full perle beats my previously perfect Drg TP set including homam/ASA/Ares/Noctunus/Aces etc -_-). In that light i HOPE SE continues this trend of wildly different yet very competitive dagger options and let each go for the style they want. Power, acc, speed, damage, STP, whatever and have them all be powerful combinations.

Edited, Jul 20th 2010 9:59am by Banalaty

Edited, Jul 20th 2010 9:59am by Banalaty
____________________________
Aanalaty, Mithra of San d'Oria
99Thf/99Drg/99Rng/95Pld/Secret Job 92
Bonecraft-100+3 7/29/08
Lu Shangs-5/28/08
Twashtar-90
Ryunohige-75: 1/7/2012
Mandau-75: 3/9/2012

Maat-1/1 Thf Meleed (pansies steal)
Some of mah gearz: http://www.ffxiah.com/player/Lakshmi/Aanalaty#item-sets
Join 'People Against The Heart Snatcher' and help put Thfs on the right P.A.T.H.S. today!
#70 Jul 20 2010 at 8:20 AM Rating: Excellent
***
3,775 posts
Banalaty Wrote:
Quote:

I agree with that. I LOVE that there are so many VIABLE options now. There isnt Blau/Sirocco and everything else (X's honerable mention). Virtually any combination of (excluding relic/mythic/empyrean) Fire/Thunder/OAT Para/Fusetto/7%DA Para will kick ass.


Here's a shock for you Banalaty. All of the new daggers are really powerful and the Twashter isn't that much better than any of the alternatives. In fact the Twashter may be equal to or worse than the Kila's. I was surprised that they were that close at first however .... it's true. Consider an example set of 23% dual wield (mirke, suppa, and Dw2) and 35% total haste (magic + 20% gear) and then consider the swings/hr and unmodified base damage of each combo

-------------------------------
Auric/Kila -- Average unmodified base damage per hit == 39, Total swings per hour == 2926
Total unmodified base damage === 114,114

Twashter/Kila -- Average unmodified base damage per hit == 40.5, Total swings per hour == 2923
Total unmodified base damage == 118,381

Kila/Kila -- Average unmodified base damage per hit == 39, Total swings per hour == 2814
Total unmodified base damage == 109,746
-------------------------------

Now the interesting part. When you consider fSTR modifies every swing and then add accuracy and attack the Twashter is only a marginal upgrade if it's even an upgrade at all to the alternatives (it has NO secondary mods or benefits and that hurts it). The Kila's, fusetto's, and auric dagger are just THAT GOOD that the amount of effort required to get Twashter's is hardly worth it right now. Twashter/Kila has the highest unmodified base damage of those combos but you must remember that Kila/Kila means 7.5% stronger hitrate (plus weaponskill and SA mods) if you pick a thunder kila or 6% average pDIF and +1.5 fSTR higher if you consider flame kila. This will close the gap between those combos to almost nothing.

While it's flawed to do math like this just to give a very rough example of what a flame and thunder kila would do

Flame Kila: 109,746 x 1.06 == 116,330 (6% pDIF increase at 1.0 base pDIF) and if you consider 1.5 fSTR on those 2814 swings as well it gives you a better idea of just how close they really are.

Alternately 7.5% hitrate is 8230 unmodified base damage so 109,746 + 8,230 == 117,976 which is near identical to twashter/kila but you'll get more tp plus sa and weaponskill mods further enhance this.

Important notes: This way of doing math is flawed because it only considers one or two variables with set points when all of the variables will be working together at once. However what it DOES do is give a general idea of the impact each singular variable has on the whole. If your attack is already high then twashter/kila will be ahead of kila/kila by a larger margin than it would at 1.0 pDIF but if your average pDIF is in the negative it will be even closer in comparison. These numbers should not be taken as absolute but rather a guiding hand to point you in the right direction.

Conclusion: ALL of the new daggers kick ass. The twashter is definitely better than the auric dagger as was evident by twashter/kila and auric/kila (neither twash nor auric have secondary bonuses and kila is associative). However I still think the Kila's are better than the auric dagger, and by that leg so close to Twashter it's scary. Twashter is probably better than the Kila's, but it's certainly not THAT far ahead, and at its current stage it hardly justifies the 50 Glaviod shells necessary to get it.

Edited, Jul 20th 2010 10:26am by Melphina
____________________________
[ffxisig]56619[/ffxisig]

There are 10 kinds of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.
#71 Jul 20 2010 at 12:15 PM Rating: Good
***
2,270 posts
Dont forget that these are just the "base" weapons for twashtar. SE has repeatedly described these weapons as teh "next" relic/mythic type weapon in rarity and power. I am quite confident that Twashtar is no where near its final form. These weapons are just nice damage/delay for now, but I suspect they will get some SERIOUS boosts in coming updates to be in teh same ballpark as relic/mythic.

I fully agree that it is not awe inspiring at THIS stage, but its day will come :P

That aside, we can only go with what we know. What we know is that all these daggers are extremely effective.

As a side note: Anyone seen any info on that new DW belt? If it is 5% or what. There is probably a place for it in low haste scenarios and moreso with Auric, and even moreso at lv 90 with DW3+suppa+mirke+auric+belt. DW build has some serious potential later on to even rival a haste belt (and....MORESO for dnc /grumble).

I dont think we can right auric off even in the future yet with Dnc using DW4+suppa+mirke+belt....if the boost is significant that could be really friggin mean. 43% DW+ whatever belt gives (5%?) ~48% DW. And a -1 build (~43%?)for thf obviously. We say auric will just be a lv 80 dagger, but DW will be shooting up to ninja levels. That power will scale VERY well.
____________________________
Aanalaty, Mithra of San d'Oria
99Thf/99Drg/99Rng/95Pld/Secret Job 92
Bonecraft-100+3 7/29/08
Lu Shangs-5/28/08
Twashtar-90
Ryunohige-75: 1/7/2012
Mandau-75: 3/9/2012

Maat-1/1 Thf Meleed (pansies steal)
Some of mah gearz: http://www.ffxiah.com/player/Lakshmi/Aanalaty#item-sets
Join 'People Against The Heart Snatcher' and help put Thfs on the right P.A.T.H.S. today!
#72 Jul 20 2010 at 2:10 PM Rating: Good
***
3,775 posts
Quote:
Dont forget that these are just the "base" weapons for twashtar. SE has repeatedly described these weapons as teh "next" relic/mythic type weapon in rarity and power. I am quite confident that Twashtar is no where near its final form. These weapons are just nice damage/delay for now, but I suspect they will get some SERIOUS boosts in coming updates to be in teh same ballpark as relic/mythic.


I agree, but on the same token when we're level 90 and higher by then the Glaviod trial should be easier to stomach. of course by then there will be all NEW trials to make us cringe but the old trials (IE: today's trials) should be easier. What may take us 500 hours now may only take 200 then, and if that ends up being the case then waiting a little bit for Twashter may have merit. I also agree that every update changes the way the game is played and future updates may add even more dual wield gear (probably will) meaning auric isn't down or out at all. The concept of fusetto enhancing evisceration by a larger margin is also an interesting one.

What this does do is prove that having current weapons is all that matters. The old daggers have pretty much died and the only one still clinging to its use is the blau dolch (no surprise), but with another update or two I have no doubt even the blau will be phased out by the newest stuff. S-E has showed they aren't afraid to make higher level weapons/equipment that surpasses the old stuff so I fully expect all current daggers to hold their own. They did this with the original level cap increases too. Remember, FFXI began at level 50 and did not expand to 75 until just after NA release. Haubergeon and scorpion harness were a breakthrough for the updates they were added in, and that happened when the level cap rose from 55-60. S-E has always made new weapons and armor like this, and I expect that to continue.

The moral of the story is that a high level dagger >>> the old stuff. If you get one of them you will perform well without being gimp. The flexibility of gear selection has grown to be enormous, and it gives a lot of leeway with what we can wear and still hold our own in battle.
____________________________
[ffxisig]56619[/ffxisig]

There are 10 kinds of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.
1 2 Next »
Reply To Thread

Colors Smileys Quote OriginalQuote Checked Help

 

Recent Visitors: 14 All times are in CDT
Anonymous Guests (14)