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The +evis dagger isn't really all that great, especially for DNC. At most it's going to be 2% more Evisceration damage than the sTP dagger. That's at a highly unrealistic 50:50 TP:WS split. The sTP dagger has the option of using other WSs, as well as providing about 8% more TP than the evis damage dagger. Not only is it better for building skillchains (you brought it up), it's better for any time you are sitting on TP past 100. The more you sit on TP the better the sTP dagger is, and you can't tell me that DNC doesn't sit on TP when soloing.

I disagree with the bolded part there Banalaty. I agree the Fusetto is easier to burn through but not exponentially so since you can do other stuff while waiting for Kila day changes. sTP +8 Fusetto means weaponskilling 1,400 times which can be burned from start to finish but it's still time consuming (100 weaponskills per hour == 14 hours as an example). The first 2 dakini trials are easy despite needing weather and I transformed two peelers in under an hour each. There are almost always people in Uli range doing peelers and ice weather is like 85% uptime. Vunkerl (s) is a gathering point for a lot of trials (easily 4-8) and I knocked that stage out in an hour each time with pick up groups too. Maybe I'm lucky but on Fenrir we have a lot of people working on magians weapons. I killed 200 lizards in cape terrigan through two thunder days with a pick up alliance that wrecked the zone (138 lizards one day and the trial was done before noon the next). Last night 14 people ran up to sky PUG style and knocked out 80 or so golems. I did my Qubtrub kills over 4 thunder days with PUG's in the reef. The key difference here is that the Fusetto requires you to weaponskill 1400 times whereas the Kila's only require you to be in a party/alliance that kills meaning 2-4 mobs going silmultaneously. Pick up groups have made my Dakini's relatively easy and most people will join me if I send them a tell (people rarely refuse teaming up, but I'm proactive and I actually send tells asking to form a group or invite them rather than sit idly by). So while I DO agree the Fusetto can be done faster I disagree it's exponentially easier and I think the benefits are worth the extra time investment. Once you finish a Kila it's going to be relatively painless to upkeep in the future because a whole server will be doing it together coupled with the fact that it should only be two trials per update if we continue at current rates. The Kila's don't require any NM camping and you can plan ahead to work on them if you know the vanadiel clock (mithrapride, alla clock, etc etc) making them only slightly less convenient to work on than the fusetto.

Now as for TWASHTER... THAT is something I DO believe requires exponentially greater effort and then some 100x over. As sad as it is the Fusetto (both Fusetto's) are better than the D 39/delay 201 Kartika's and unless you can get 50 glaviod shells that's a roadblock which will remain permanently. In contrast the fusetto's will probably be expanded upon next update. Personally I would rather a Kila than a Fusetto because if I need accuracy the Thunder Kila >>> sTP Fusetto, and if I don't need accuracy I think a flame Kila will outperform sTP + 8 fusetto in the long run too. This is my own personal opinion on the non renegade path magian daggers and others may have varying results, but I stand by my Kila's and I still like them best.

Edited, Jul 18th 2010 4:46pm by Melphina

AHHHH Finally a situation where I can play the math game. This is gonna be fun. It's been too long since I've found some daggers to play around with maths on.

OPENING NOTES: I am comparing only swings/hr and other basic dagger diifferences. I will use Kila/Kila and Auric/Kila as the only two examples. Since thunder and flame kila both have identical delay swings/hr can be calculated regardless of the Kila choice. The largest difference between auric/kila and kila/kila is thus the speed versus the secondary stat mods. In this case the second kila can be omitted by process of associativity (meaning secondary stats only apply to the difference of ONE kila versus the auric dagger).

Well then time to play some number games to see just how these stack up.

Math's below. Conclusion is at the bottom
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Since we're looking at speed as a factor I'll begin by defining a haste/dual wield set
Example haste set: dual wield mirke + suppa (8%) + 15% magic haste and 22% gear haste + brutal earring (2.48 swings/round average with multi procs)

Total Dual Wield == 23%
Total haste == 37%

Auric Dagger/Kila <--- dual wield is + 13% here because of auric dagger
391 x 0.72 x 0.63 == 177.35
177.35/60 == 2.955
3600/2.955 == 1218
1218 x 2.48 == 3020 swings/hr


Kila/Kila
380 x 0.77 x 0.63 == 184.33
184.33/60 == 3.072
3600/3.072 == 1171
1171 x 2.48 == 2904 swings/hr

Difference in swings/hr == 116
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Secondary stat considerations

-----TP per hit with 2x kila is 4.7 whereas tp per hit with auric/kila is 4.6 (this is before sTP)
-----Thunder Kila raises accuracy by 7.5% which is 217 swings in the 2x kila model. Furthermore 6 dex is worth approximately 1.5 ws on evisc/DE/ManStab and 3 wsc on shark bite in addition to the enhancement to sneak attack's base damage.
-----Flame kila raises fSTR by 1.5, meaning 1 base damage on 50% mobs and 2 base Damage on the other half (this applies to both daggers). Furthermore 19 attack is approximately 6% increase in average pDIF.
-----Auric/Kila has base damage 39 in the main hand which is 1 stronger than kila/kila, however once you consider fSTR and wsc mods the kila's may have equal to or higher base damage in the main hand depending on fSTR cap and wsc rounding (this fSTR/wsc bonus also applies to the offhand strikes in weaponskills)
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Scenarios where you add even more haste:

Haste is exponential and dual wield further enhances this. If you consider a scenario with 27% magic haste (march + spell haste) and the previous defined gear you have the following

Auric/kila -- 3737 swings/hr
Kila/Kila -- 3589 swings/hr

A difference of 148 swings/hr up from 116
However the counter is that 7.5% accuracy is now worth 269 swings in 2x kila up from 217. In this case the accuracy bonus of the kila is worth more than the change in dual wield enhancement.

If you consider extreme haste with 25% gear haste, double march, magic haste, plus dancer haste -- 62% haste plus mirke/suppa and brutal you have this

Auric/Kila -- 5007 swings/hr
Kila/Kila -- 4694 swings/hr

A difference of 313 swings/hr
However the counter is that 7.5% accuracy is now worth 352 swings in 2x kila. In this case the speed begins to catch up to the accuracy enhancement but not enough to break even ground and you'll almost never see higher haste levels than this (soul voiced 2x march is the only exception).

Closing notes: This example assumes uncapped accuracy. That's a duh and by now you probably know that but if accuracy is capped the thunder kila is less powerful. Of course the counter is that when accuracy is capped you can dual wield two flame kila's which is a difference of fSTR + 3 (three base damage increase) on 100% of mobs and 38 attack is approximately 13% increase in average pDIF. So take that as you will with a grain of salt.
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Conclusion: Hmm, this isn't easy for me to say. From the basic numbers the kila/kila combo looks stronger than the auric/kila combo because if your accuracy is uncapped 15 accuracy (thunder kila) is a bigger boost than the auric's speed, and if your accuracy is capped you can dual wield two flame kila's which is also a bigger increase in overall damage (fSTR +3 on every mob tips the scales at 95% accuracy). The counter is that the auric dagger has a high drop rate off a fairly easy abyssean NM and doesn't require you to spend time on the magian's. The two combos are fairly close and to get the most out of a kila/kila setup you would need one thunder and two flame kila's to account for capped versus uncapped accuracy (sh*t is situational). I suppose each person should take these numbers and make their own decisions. I wouldn't knock anyone for choosing the auric dagger over the kila combos; thats for sure. But I still think the maximum potential (between the two setups) lies in a kila build, so if you're willing to put in the extra effort the Kila's would still be better in the end. Personally I'm enjoying my Kila trials since alliance tp burns are just my kind of thing. But my flame dakini is fast approaching 200 flans... and that's one trial I'm not looking forward to at all so my entrainment with magians will probably change then.

Edited, Jul 18th 2010 8:32pm by Melphina

What about when we get DW3? +5% DW on top of 33% is more beneficial than +5% on top of 23%.

I'm definitely craving the Auric dagger as it's basically equal to the current Twashtar and the Twashtar is... kind of, lets be honest. Like, impossible to get just about?

But Breaze, really ehh. Its up on my server. I was gonna go do it tonight but it wasnt up so we did something else, and now it is up and I dont have much time on the clock >,<. I have no problems w/ mage/kite low-manning stuff but. I'm wondering where did Tsola kite it? It looks like its dead on the east side of the mountain that it spawns near. But on the east side of that mountain there are slimes. On the west, there are Nauls. Mostly worried about the Nauls. It doesn't seem like you could safely kite it around the mountain without either risking aggro or having to turn around which could be dangerous depending on what it chooses to cast. Can you find out where he kited it exactly?

Thanks for the info Breaze that really helps a ton ^^. Unfortunately with the last 50 minutes on my clock today my friend drug me over to Chasmic Hornet tonight so I don't have time for this NM today :/. So you drag it NE? Yeah I thought it might be a little dangerous to fight it where it spawns. I was going to do it kited style and I had already geared my Thf/Cor to try that out too. I don't really feel bad about Thf not being able to melee that mob. Thief can tank so many NM's that have come out in the last couple years, can't have it be useful on everything. It's always useful to have TH though, and I'm sure Thf/Cor dmg would be welcome in this fight. I was going to do it kited style, but I could always go Cor or Brd instead of Thf and just tank it on my alt's Rdm (I don't have fully leveled sch sub though :( ). I'm sooo eager to fight it. Sucks that I know it's up and flying around yet am gonna have to wait a couple days to do it >,<.

Speaking of Chasmic Hornet we died at 11% >,<. My friend wanted me to bring my Rdm as /drk and we went Thf/Nin and Pld/War. Contrary to what Wiki indicated though, it looked like Thf in max evasion took a lot less dmg than Pld. Basically had floored its accuracy entirely, it was wiffing like a too-weak. But the hate reset from the 100-fists TP move it does constantly made it rough to recover from the Rdm dying the first time.

Thanks again for the valuable info ^^

I'm gonna have to go with Mel on this one...even though auric's stats look good, in the long run it will be overshadowed by the kila by the next update and beyond. Even more so if the kilas get another delay reduction (happened with dakini's when upgrading, so probably will happen again)

If I had to choose anything to repace a kila it would be the STP fusetto. Less base damage than other options, but decent delay and since it's a magian dagger it will probably be upgradable in the future.

If I happen to come across an auric dagger I'll probably lot it and use it on DNC at least until the next level cap...after that it will probably get mannequinned...or tossed.

But hey...at least it's shiney ^^

Yeah, I agree that mere speculation will have its drawbacks, but at the same time you have to keep 2 things in mind. 1. The history of the upgrades to magian daggers so far, which has followed certain trends. Sure there is no ABSOLUTE way of knowing what they will do next with each set of upgrades, but logically (i know, lol SE logic) they will continue the additions the way they have been (adding base damage, attributes, and stats etc).

And 2: Choosing one extreme over the other is kinda counter productive. Again, I agree that we can't predict exactly which dagger will be the absolute best, but should that hold you back from choosing one now? I personally know that my fire and thunder kilas will not be the absolute top dagger combo (but I have no time for a mandau/vajra/twashtar/terpsichore/) but its a combo that suits my needs as is for the time being. On the other hand, if one or both of these end up to be really REALLY good in the end...one who has adopted the other side of the mentality will have to go through quite a bit of work from scratch just to get one. (I am currently kicking myself for not starting both a twashtar and armageddon sooner ; ;)

tl;dr Not saying one should just jump on magian daggers as I did, nor am I saying that one should completely forsake them either...

My bad, yeah I didn't really do any math. Subtle blow all aside, Mandau(+4)/Twashtar DPS is about 3.7% higher than Mandau/Auric. Twash/Kila is about 3.9% higher than Auric/Kila. Mandau/Twash & Mandau/Auric, delay with no haste and 23% base DW is 135 for both combinations. After the next DW3 and before considering future changes, Mandau/Twashtar will be at 117 and /Auric will only be surprisingly slightly ahead (truncation), at 116.

I think there's more to the weapon comparison math of course, but I will agree that the Acc Kila is a very valuable asset. I'd like to compare Auric vs Fire Kila in situations where your pDif and fStr isn't already high/capped. But generally Auric will become better closer to the cap (unless you're talking about the tricky territories of atk/def where pDif gives higher vs lower returns). I'm thinking that in lolSalvage, I could use Auric dagger on things like Gears for example. Stuff that is weak to piercing, that I have high acc and pDif on, and that my Ridill might miss. Can't say when Auric would be better, but assuming there are times where Fire Kila > Auric Dagger, the following weapons would all be useful,

Thunder Kila -> Fire Kila -> Auric Dagger -> lolMcRidill

That is, as your hit rate and pDif increase, the weapons on the right become more favorable. As they decrease, the weapons on the left become favorable.

Similarly, at least for Mandau, fight vs disengaged time would dictate the following,
Auric/Twashtar -> OAT -> 2-3x -> Kclub

Assuming hit rate isn't a problem and depending on some DPS consideration, as fight time becomes lower and disengage time becomes greater, the weapons on the right start becoming more attractive, at least as Mandau offhands, and in situations where you can stack mercies.

Possibly up to 8 possible offhands to use, depending on conditions like hit rate, pDif, engage vs unengage, and piercing weakness.


They've given us a ton of flexibility with systems and gear as of late. More and more situationally sh*t is coming into play more than ever before. Can even consider the new high acc and attack equips, for example. It could become possible to create decent multi-hit WS sets vs IT++ mobs (when you cant stack SA/TA). One could use high acc/atk+ pieces for IT++ mobs, and high WSC pieces for lesser mobs.

My biggest concerns are still with Auric vs Thunder Kila, Fire Kila, and OAT Parazonium. Given that I know I can use them all (ever-slightly skeptical of Fire Kila though), I want to try and obtain them all ;x Hell I still use X's Knife, even. At the start of an NM fight for spike hate after pre-building TP.

Edited, Jul 20th 2010 8:13am by Shamaya

Banalaty Wrote:


Here's a shock for you Banalaty. All of the new daggers are really powerful and the Twashter isn't that much better than any of the alternatives. In fact the Twashter may be equal to or worse than the Kila's. I was surprised that they were that close at first however .... it's true. Consider an example set of 23% dual wield (mirke, suppa, and Dw2) and 35% total haste (magic + 20% gear) and then consider the swings/hr and unmodified base damage of each combo

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Auric/Kila -- Average unmodified base damage per hit == 39, Total swings per hour == 2926
Total unmodified base damage === 114,114

Twashter/Kila -- Average unmodified base damage per hit == 40.5, Total swings per hour == 2923
Total unmodified base damage == 118,381

Kila/Kila -- Average unmodified base damage per hit == 39, Total swings per hour == 2814
Total unmodified base damage == 109,746
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Now the interesting part. When you consider fSTR modifies every swing and then add accuracy and attack the Twashter is only a marginal upgrade if it's even an upgrade at all to the alternatives (it has NO secondary mods or benefits and that hurts it). The Kila's, fusetto's, and auric dagger are just THAT GOOD that the amount of effort required to get Twashter's is hardly worth it right now. Twashter/Kila has the highest unmodified base damage of those combos but you must remember that Kila/Kila means 7.5% stronger hitrate (plus weaponskill and SA mods) if you pick a thunder kila or 6% average pDIF and +1.5 fSTR higher if you consider flame kila. This will close the gap between those combos to almost nothing.

While it's flawed to do math like this just to give a very rough example of what a flame and thunder kila would do

Flame Kila: 109,746 x 1.06 == 116,330 (6% pDIF increase at 1.0 base pDIF) and if you consider 1.5 fSTR on those 2814 swings as well it gives you a better idea of just how close they really are.

Alternately 7.5% hitrate is 8230 unmodified base damage so 109,746 + 8,230 == 117,976 which is near identical to twashter/kila but you'll get more tp plus sa and weaponskill mods further enhance this.

Important notes: This way of doing math is flawed because it only considers one or two variables with set points when all of the variables will be working together at once. However what it DOES do is give a general idea of the impact each singular variable has on the whole. If your attack is already high then twashter/kila will be ahead of kila/kila by a larger margin than it would at 1.0 pDIF but if your average pDIF is in the negative it will be even closer in comparison. These numbers should not be taken as absolute but rather a guiding hand to point you in the right direction.

Conclusion: ALL of the new daggers kick ass. The twashter is definitely better than the auric dagger as was evident by twashter/kila and auric/kila (neither twash nor auric have secondary bonuses and kila is associative). However I still think the Kila's are better than the auric dagger, and by that leg so close to Twashter it's scary. Twashter is probably better than the Kila's, but it's certainly not THAT far ahead, and at its current stage it hardly justifies the 50 Glaviod shells necessary to get it.

Edited, Jul 20th 2010 10:26am by Melphina

I agree, but on the same token when we're level 90 and higher by then the Glaviod trial should be easier to stomach. of course by then there will be all NEW trials to make us cringe but the old trials (IE: today's trials) should be easier. What may take us 500 hours now may only take 200 then, and if that ends up being the case then waiting a little bit for Twashter may have merit. I also agree that every update changes the way the game is played and future updates may add even more dual wield gear (probably will) meaning auric isn't down or out at all. The concept of fusetto enhancing evisceration by a larger margin is also an interesting one.

What this does do is prove that having current weapons is all that matters. The old daggers have pretty much died and the only one still clinging to its use is the blau dolch (no surprise), but with another update or two I have no doubt even the blau will be phased out by the newest stuff. S-E has showed they aren't afraid to make higher level weapons/equipment that surpasses the old stuff so I fully expect all current daggers to hold their own. They did this with the original level cap increases too. Remember, FFXI began at level 50 and did not expand to 75 until just after NA release. Haubergeon and scorpion harness were a breakthrough for the updates they were added in, and that happened when the level cap rose from 55-60. S-E has always made new weapons and armor like this, and I expect that to continue.

The moral of the story is that a high level dagger >>> the old stuff. If you get one of them you will perform well without being gimp. The flexibility of gear selection has grown to be enormous, and it gives a lot of leeway with what we can wear and still hold our own in battle.