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#27 Feb 06 2010 at 2:05 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
It seems to me Vajra needs a boost in base damage it has never gotten. Lets say around 35-37 seems fair. This puts it right in between X's and Mandau. If SE decided to give Vajra a boost in base damage it would also show in the parse I did. I would have been even closer to the war/sam or I could have beaten him. Which seems fair to me.



DMG isn't the problem. The problem is that it has a terrible delay and you have to use a highly situational WS in order to get the aftermath effects.

Unlike mandau which is just 100% goodness in all ways.



Edited, Feb 6th 2010 4:17pm by Lobivopis
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I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#28 Feb 06 2010 at 2:12 PM Rating: Decent
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Requim wrote:
In the end 31/200 doesn't really inspire confidence that this would be worth the trouble when you could just sell alexes and buy an X's knife upgrade Mandau.


ftfy

Requim wrote:
fraction of the effort



If you did Requiem of Sin for a year it's still highly likely that you wouldn't get the dagger. Going after X's knife is like killing oldschool Sozu Rogberry once a week.

Edited, Feb 6th 2010 4:20pm by Lobivopis
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I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#29 Feb 06 2010 at 2:24 PM Rating: Default
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Shamaya wrote:
ves by finding people specifically for it, or finding an ENM group.

It also is important to note that you can do the BCNM more frequently than you might think.. You should try and always find 'dummies' if possible. You could find people on Saturday, tell them about mercing their services, and go do the pre-requisite bcnm with them that very night. The following day, after JP midnight, you should return to the BCNM. It's very important, however, that everyone exits the BCNM before opening the chest, and that only 'the dummy' opens the chest. People outside the BC will still be able to lot on the contents. And then you can return to Tavnazia for what might be a little surprise. I could be more specific/detailed about this, but something is telling me not to.


If you want to risk getting banned then go ahead and do this.
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I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#30 Feb 06 2010 at 2:50 PM Rating: Good
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I think it's relatively safe since you're not duping anything but, SE has proven our expectations wrong before.
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#31 Feb 07 2010 at 2:18 AM Rating: Decent
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Fynlar wrote:
Quote:
This is still sounding like a zerg or HNM dagger to me.


Zerg dagger? I thought any dagger can land Feint and get you swapped out of the alliance for some 2-hander melee just fine.

You might as well do it with the Thief's Knife and kill two birds with one stone (Feint *AND* TH!)

^______________^


Sadly.. I have to do it this way sometimes. Baha v2 for example. TH needs to be put on him, and if I switch weapons after the initial blows he's pretty much already at 50% hp minimum, if not dead already.
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#32 Feb 07 2010 at 12:16 PM Rating: Decent
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grats!!! nice testing, thanks for doing it!
#33 Feb 23 2010 at 2:01 AM Rating: Good
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Bump.

Give us the exact potency numbers, Breaze! Still enjoying it or found any niche uses? I'm sure others are still curious <3 ^^;
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#34 Feb 24 2010 at 10:26 AM Rating: Decent
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Breaze wrote:
After Hydra you fight Balrahn. He uses your weapon against you and does dagger weaponskills in my case. After you get him to 80% HP he will use Mandy stab and he says something. At this point you have to weaponskill him with Mandy stab. I used weaponskills at 100 -> 200 -> 300 tp. But I also read you can go 300 -> 200 -> 100 tp. If you go the second option you have to wait for the aftermath to wear off. Which is annoying.
Important bring bolts to this fight. Blind, acid and bloody all proc on Balrahn. Your inventory will love you for it. I used sushi to land bolts but looking back meat should have worked just as well. Again this fight is really easy. It is nearly impossible to lose. Unless you d/c.
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a372/Breaze/Vajra6.jpg

I've been told that Balrahn will 'taunt' you as soon as you engage him.. But here you seem to indicate that didn't happen until 80%? That's worrisome, as expecting 100 TP to take 20% off means after the additional 500+ TP, Balrahn would be dead before you got off your 100/200/300 TP WSs...?

About the Aftermaths that won't overwrite (300 -> 100, 300 -> 200, 200 -> 100), I've heard that, at least during this fight, if you unequip your weapon, the Aftermath wears off.
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#35 Feb 24 2010 at 12:50 PM Rating: Good
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Carrilei wrote:
That's worrisome, as expecting 100 TP to take 20% off means after the additional 500+ TP, Balrahn would be dead before you got off your 100/200/300 TP WSs...?


The first BLU who fought Balrahn didn't know about the Aftermath stacking gimmick and tried to fight him straight up. He found that at 1%, Balrahn stopped taking damage from anything and everything. So there should be no worries on "killing him" before stacking 1->2->3.
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#36 Feb 24 2010 at 1:20 PM Rating: Good
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Pahn wrote:
A lot of people worry about "being an MP sponge" even in a merit party. but look at that parse. yarko did 40%~ damage while rizko did 30%~ damage. however, they took roughly the same damage. what's going on here? in merit parties, hate works in chunks, generally following who happens to be WSing at the time and who's melee damage is the highest (often gets early hate). you share hate. you even share hate when you parse someone into the ground, assuming they don't suck.


Sam always has the option of dishing out a nice 1K DMG WS's when the mob is @2% HP, which is yet another factor why parses can't really be trusted. I would have expected the WAR to do slightly better however.
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#37 Feb 24 2010 at 7:03 PM Rating: Good
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Every Sam I know does not hesitate to WS at 2% of the mobs HP. Apoc Drk's are even worse.
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#38 Feb 24 2010 at 10:02 PM Rating: Decent
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Shamaya wrote:
Quote:
Give us the exact potency numbers, Breaze! Still enjoying it or found any niche uses? I'm sure others are still curious <3 ^^;

Yea sorry. I have been playing the game and enjoying my dagger.

Now that I have Vajra for some time I find that I use Mandalic Stab a lot more. But I hardly save 300tp for the aftermath effect.

Did Suzaku with four people. We killed it in about 20 min. I know it is nothing special, rdm/nin can solo this but still we had fun.
I was thf/nin and did most of the tanking. SA Mandalic Stab was doing a consistent 1000+ damage each time /nin with no extra buffs. I only used a yellow curry bun.
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a372/Breaze/Mandystab1.jpg

I also did a dynamis. Which I hate. Dynamis is just not a thf friendly place if you want to DD as a thf. The monsters just move too much. I had a brd in my party this time.
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a372/Breaze/Mandystab2.jpg
The only fun part is to try and TAws one of my fellow DD's during a bad moment. Like when a mnk monster uses hundred fists. For the rest of the run I just want it to be over.

Did some salvage. No bard here. Only yellow curry bun.
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a372/Breaze/Mandystab3.jpg

Exp party. With a bard (duh).
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a372/Breaze/Mandystab4.jpg

Other things I notice: I never end up with 99tp anymore. That used to happen to me when I used X/blau. Note: I did have skadi legs, rajas ring and brutal at the time and I still found myself with 99tp regularly. I realize you can end up with 99tp for lots of reasons. I just notice it does not happen anymore.

Niche uses: Varja obviously shines more when your damage focuses on SA and TA instead of DoT. So it works good for HNM fights and in places like NW Apollyon. I duo there with a whm/blm for coins. Get 100tp-> sleep monster-> SA Mandalic Stab -> get 100tp. I get 29-33 coins each run.

Varja works well against imps. Like you find in Silver Sea remnants. When you eat amnesia you can't use tp. When amnesia is over you often have 300tp. Then you can go crazy on the poor imp. (And no I don't carry Ecphoria Ring with me.)

And it should do well in zerg fights where you can go /drk and open with 300tp. I still want to try that so much.

@ Carrilei: yes Balrahn will taunt you as soon as you engage him but he won't count your Mandalic Stab at that point. I ws'ed him three times before I got him to 80% HP and nothing happened. Meaning no icon at the top of my screen indicating the aftermath effect.
And you won't kill him either. There is nothing to worry about really. The Balrahn fight is impossible to lose unless you d/c.

I promise I will post potency numbers in the near future. I just can't say when exactly.

Edited, Feb 25th 2010 5:42am by Breaze
#39 Mar 03 2010 at 7:58 PM Rating: Decent
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To comment on some old questions/suggestions: "The troll example is weirdish because diamond hide might have gotten in the way."
I can assure you diamond hide was never on for all SA's I did. I made sure it was off. I think the numbers for the troll are weird because one troll was at the high-end of the VT spectrum and the other was at the low-end of the VT spectrum.

That being said somebody suggested flamingo. So here you go: At 75 these con DC, low evasion, low defense to me.

thf/nin SA test with gear:
STR 65+16
DEX 82+54
attack 410
no food during all tests

X's knife, base dmg: 34 Increases crit damage
targets - two flamingo (DC):
1. 546
2. 543
3. 628
4. 568
5. 610
6. 620
7. 583
8. 508
9. 615
10.670

high:670 low:508 average:589,1

Vajra, base dmg: 31 Enhances SA effect
targets - two flamingo (DC):
1. 657
2. 658
3. 497
4. 580
5. 658
6. 505
7. 485
8. 582
9. 487
10.571

high:658 low:485 average:568

I am seeing the same pattern as I saw during the first SA tests. X's beating Vajra on high's, low's and average. During the first tests (see OP) you could argue: small sample size but the simple size is getting bigger. I can see a pattern in the four tests I did. Four tests being: worm, colibri, troll, flamingo.

X's/vajra, base dmg:34 Increases crit damage, no effect off-hand
targets - two flamingo (DC):
1. 606
2. 537
3. 592
4. 510
5. 650
6. 518
7. 572
8. 567
9. 625
10.553

high:650 low:510 average:573

I used Vajra here in my off-hand. Just to confirm what SE already said. Mythic effect does not work in the off-hand. If you compare this with the Varja test it is closer. Vajra high:658, X's/vajra high:650. Still pretty shocking to see that Varja is such a let down.

Vajra/X's, base dmg: 31 Enhances SA effect, Increases crit damage
targets - two flamingo (DC):
1. 560
2. 667
3. 618
4. 678
5. 666
6. 556
7. 615
8. 676
9. 668
10.546

high:678 low:546 average:625

This is my control. To show you X's does work in the off-hand and stacks nicely with Vajra.

I am not planning on more Vajra testing. Seeing the game is going on steroids pretty soon. This testing will all be irrelevant. It is nice to have some info and will be interesting to look back on.
I am really looking forward to these updates. SE said they might allow relic and mythic weapons to be upgraded through a new system. I really hope that will allow me to turn Vajra from a decent dagger into a great dagger.

Edited, Mar 4th 2010 7:33am by Breaze
#40 Mar 03 2010 at 11:52 PM Rating: Good
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Thanks for your efforts Breaze ^^ While I'd definitely prefer a pure number for the exact increase, as well as precisely how it's acting formulaically, that's a bit much to ask in the context of a video game. As you said too, the game will be changing. IMO, getting the exact # would still be relevant, although there is still a possibility that the Magians questline/system could change the nature of the weapon. Probably not. But ****, we don't even have a 100% solid # for X's Knife (whether it's +pDif or *1.xDmg, and how much).

But speaking from a rationalist perspective, I think we can say that we can be confident that Vajra and X's Knife act on SA/TA in the exact same manner (with the exact same boost); or at least, it's a viable possibility.

What we can gather from your samples:
If you average your X's & X's/Vajra (since we can discard Vajra's functionality in the offhand), your average becomes 581. Compare this to Vajra's avg of 568. The difference is 13. The base dmg diff between the weapons is 3. Assuming you were at the pDif cap, there would be a difference of roughly 9dmg between your avgs assuming the weapons' boost function is the same, and perfect samples. So you're only off by 4 there, which isn't really much given your sample size. Unfortunately you can't include the trolls or the worms because on worms we know your pDif is capped, and on trolls it's probably lower, and thus there will be a disparity in the pDif averages.

But on that note, nobody called me out on a mistake I made before. I was saying that your Troll parse was insufficient because the spread between the max/min was too high. But I was assuming pDif was capped, which wasn't the case.

Either way, the problem w/ not doing a test on lvl1 mobs is that we don't know what your pDif max/min should be unless you know your atk and the mobs def. And thus we can't use the max/min check to determine if the sample is sufficient. Take for example,
http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/ffxi/images/2/29/PDIF1H_1.0-2.4.jpg
In the realm of cRatio 1.7->2, the max/min ratio is different at every value of cRatio. Prior and after, though, it's static.

So while your samples can't tell us the exact dmg boost nature of X's or Vajra, it's enough to show that the two are likely the same.


As for the boost that X's gives to crit hits, it's been quoted at +10% to +12%, or even a straight +0.3 to pDif. The difference here is that while a +% increase would be static at all pDif's, +0.3 would get better as pDif got lower.

Setting aside the possibility that Vajra might function by raising base damage via Dex/Agi and that your samples are mere coincidence, there's also the low possibility that Vajra gives +pDif and X's gives a straight % increase. This would explain why Vajra pulled ahead in your troll sample. However, if you take the max/min's of each sample, they're significantly different (for X's, about 1.36, and Vajra, about 1.42), so nothing can be concluded. Even if they acted differently, with sufficient samples the max/min for both would be the same.


Now onto whether I think the boosts on these weapons are +pDif or straight % multiplier. And also, if they're straight multipliers, do they stack together additionally or multiply together. For example, if the boost was 10%, would it boost dmg by pDif*1.2 or would it be pDif*1.1*1.1
*at the pDif cap, max is 3.14, low 2.67, and avg 2.9
(don't worry about the how these don't look neatly rounded in decimal)
*assuming +0.3 pDif, at pDif cap, the dmg increase would be ~10.34% (3.2/2.9)
*and at lower atk/def, this would get higher
*assuming Vajra/X give the same boost, combining them together would double the effect
*Vajra/X's increase over Vajra is 10.0%
*if you include X's & X's/Vajra samples and adjust for base dmg difference, Vajra/X's increase is 10.1%
*if X's/Vajra's boost is +10%, then stacking would be +20%. 1.2/1.1 = 1.091. Or we'd expect to see 9.1% increase using Vajra/X's. If the boosts are 11% then stacking them would give us a 9.9% marginal increase over the last. If 12%, then 10.7% increase.
*assuming the boosts were +0.3 pDif and we were at the pDif cap, then our boost from Vajra/X's over plain Vajra would be (2.9+0.6)/(2.9+0.3) or 9.375%. Going lower in pDif avg, for example doing it at 2.7, the expected increase would be exactly 10%.



**************************
Alright, I've decided to stop right there. Looking at the max/min for Vajra/X's, the spread is 1.24 and in the case of the avg of the other samples, the spread is 1.32. That and we don't know avg pDif for sure because we don't know mob Def. So nothing can really be concluded yet from these samples >,<. I'm sorry Breaze I tried ; ;

TLDR
Remaining thoughts:
*There are 3 ways I can think of that SA/TA can be boosted:
-By adjusting Dex/Agi (like af+1)
-By adding pDif
-By acting as a straight multiplier to the dmg formula
*X's and Vajra may have the same type of boost. They may not.
*Assuming it was the same type of boost, one weapon might still be more potent than the other. Or possibly not.
*There is also the small possibility that instead of just stacking together, Vajra & X's together could be even better. Consider the possibility of: pDif*VajraBoost*X'sBoost.
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#41 Mar 04 2010 at 7:19 AM Rating: Good
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Ok. I came home, and went and got the def of some DC flamingos. Then I got to the math.
Unedited from wordpad:
*find mob def
1 373atk = low def; 372 = normal
2 386norm 387low
both of these were dc flamingos. avg = 379normal/380low. it's def is 380*0.8. it's def is 304 avg,
*find out how much the sa should have done
so sa should do: (vajra, no boost, 4fStr is actually a better guess than 2), 31+4+136 = 171. pDif is = ; atk/def=1.349; pdif= avgcrit=2.3092;. high = 2.619; low=2
**1.25 piercing**
vajra avg = 493.6 vajra boost: vaj+x's avg boost:
varja low = 427.5 vajra boost: vaj+x's avg boost:
vajra high = 559.8 vajra boost: vaj+x's avg boost:
New Masamune pDif: high=2.823, low=1.952, avg = 2.388
prevajra avg = 510.3 vajra boost: 1.113
prevarja low = 417.2 vajra boost: 1.163
prevajra high = 603.4 vajra boost: 1.090
vajra actual pDif: high=3.078(diff=0.255), low=2.269(d=0.317), avg=2.657(d=0.269)
va+x's actual pDif:
*find out how much spread there'd be in the event of +pDif
actual supposed pDif spread = 0.871; ratio= 1.446
vajra pDif spread = 0.809; ratio=1.357
significant difference exists---
*find out how much in the event of a straight multiplier
prevajra avg = 510.3 vajra boost: 1.113
prevarja low = 417.2 vajra boost: 1.163
prevajra high = 603.4 vajra boost: 1.090
*find out how much it'd be if +%dex
if +15%, 191BD
vajra hyp high=673
low=466
avg=570*; off by 2

I started off by using the old pDif formulas we've been using for years. The hypothetical numbers I was getting looked possible, but strange. I decided to go with the updated pDif information, and what I was getting seemed to be fitting better.

The only problem is that all three possible models (+pDif, straight multiplier, +dex/agi%) are, well, all possible. Looking at the numbers, the most farfetched-looking and least likely seems to be straight multiplier. But the +pDif and +dex% models seem to be fitting better with the last vajra sample (though it is only 10 in size).

The problem with fitting the samples with the models.. well first is the spread. According to the new pDif math, a perfect sample in this case would have a spread of 0.871 between the lowest and highest points. Meanwhile, the vajra sample has a spread of only 0.809. So under that, both +pDif and +dex% are possible. Meanwhile, the only way to disprove a straight multiplier theory would be with a statistically high sample, I think.

The +dex% theory can easily be proven right wrong if we give a hypothetical number (like +15%) and show that it doesn't match perfect samples. But for that, we'd need 2 samples of significantly different dex, both with spreads of close to 0.871 pDif (sufficient size). But for now, the +15% model doesn't conflict the data. It could also be a different % though. I guess it wouldn't likely be based on induction, assuming we're right about the af+1. But who knows.

So I can't conclude anything with the data atm. If anyone else wants to dig further, you might find something. But really, there are a lot of us (like myself) that could do sufficient samples to determine the exact nature of X's, but we've just been too lazy to. Can't blame Breaze either.

And Breaze I didn't know you knew Tsola :O. That guys a pretty cool bro. Inspired me to lowman Zirnitra^^
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#42 Mar 05 2010 at 12:14 AM Rating: Decent
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Thanks for your effort sha! Appreciate it. But lets say you find out how X's and Vajra work. Will that really change anything in how people will gear?
For solo SA I cant see myself give up stuff like: Pixie Earring, Thunder Ring, Maat's Cap, Love Torque, Skadi's Cuirie, Enkidu's Mittens, Charger Mantle, Cuchulain's Belt, Hecatomb Subligar, Enkidu's Leggings, Rajas Ring.

Well maybe when new gear comes out it will give us more options. But for now I don't see good alternatives.

And yes I do a lot of events with tsola. He is my favourite taru to MPK^^
#43 Mar 05 2010 at 1:46 AM Rating: Good
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Yeah I guess so. Well trust me, w/ this math stuff, the more you know the better. When the dex:crit information was finally solved, some people were like "ok lol all that work and it doesn't change anything," but since that time I've seen the information quoted a lot and it has definitely had an effect on what people think of various gear choices.

For X's, knowing how it works is pretty important I'd say. Evisceration crit boost never got figured out, and as it stands I'd still consider EV vs DE a not-so-concluded subject, mainly because of that. Accordingly X's vs alternatives is still an issue, especially because the evisceration thing hasn't been solved. But if it's such an issue, that means that X's and some alternatives are close. And if they're close, then knowing exactly how X's works can definitely cause the scale to tip one way or another.

In the case of Vajra, maybe not so much. Or maybe so. At least for Pixie, it could give you reason to change that one piece (though I can imagine you not wanting to), because Merman's is already surprisingly close to Pixie in my math. Depending on if Vajra increases pDif or if it increases dex%, it could tip either one of these into being the better piece. Same with heca subligar for a haste-relevant SA build. Unfortunately it's not as attractive as it so-deliciously looks, because the slow on it is utterly massive. If Vajra adds to pDif, heca subligar in comparison to an attak-speed-friendly alternative (like enkidu's) will become weaker. If it increases dex value, then heca subligar will become stronger in comparison.

Nothing too major but definitely nice stuff to know.
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#44 Mar 05 2010 at 5:41 AM Rating: Good
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Thanks for reminding me. Evis testing just keeps getting put on the back burner. It gets harder and harder to find time for mundane tests when there are things to do that advance personal goals :S So much FFXI. So little time.

I need to revisit that at some point >_<
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#45 Mar 31 2010 at 11:53 PM Rating: Good
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http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a372/Breaze/Vajratrial1.jpg
Done with trail 1. It is basically what I asked for in my OP and SE gave it to me. So I can't really complain about it. Be careful what you wish for Breaze!

Just started with trail 2. I have to land the kill shot on undead with mandy stab. Who came up with that?!? It is really annoying. Oh right no complaining....


I am not yet sure if I am getting any of the new daggers. Recently I have been playing with a lot of different off-hand weapons: M.kris, Kraken club, Justice sword, Sirocco, X's.

Justice sword was only a tiny bit faster then Sirocco kukri. I am pretty sure the double attack effect on Justice sword is hurting thf's triple attack trait.

And the new double attack dagger from the Trail of Magians quest line is basically just that. A justice sword in dagger form without need for virtue stones. Both gain tp at nearly the same rate. I doubt this new sirocco+1 or Justice dagger (whatever you want to call it) can beat X's or blau in the off-hand.

I was kind of shocked with how well Kraken Club performed. Even without sushi I was gaining tp like crazy. Talking about "Even match" monsters here. I did not parse this but if anything can beat X or blau in the off-hand it will be Kraken Club. It's WS speed could make up for it's crappy DoT.

And the evasion type dagger (AGI+4, evasion +12) looks nice. But what am I going to kill with it that I can't kill already?





Edited, Apr 1st 2010 7:56am by Breaze
#46 Apr 01 2010 at 12:51 AM Rating: Good
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I had Kclub for a couple weeks recently. I didn't use it often, but I felt that it was really effective in Nyzul. Never missed. I don't think it's perfect for the whole run, but if sa and ta timers are at 0 when going up a floor, find that specified enemy, TP up, sa mercy, tp up, ta mercy. Dead, find the next specified enemy, one ja is already up. Seemed really good for pushing out dmg in that situation.

Justice Multi-Attack is different than Joytoy. Well, all justice weapons are different. Your triple and double attack trait/gear will stack on top of if. I assumed Majian double-attack is like Joytoy/Ridill/Kclub/etc, in that the weapons multi-procs take precedence b4 equip/trait, and you can't proc a multi attack on top of the weapon's proc.

I'm not sure any genuine testing has been done. I think it was just assumed that the weapon's multi-proc takes precedence. But it could be the other way around. If so, that'd explain Joytoy being thought of as 45% proc rate, assuming the samples were done with someone playing war.

Two things that I don't know the answers to:
(1)Is Majian double-attack jailer style, or normal style? (my guess is normal)
(2)Is 300% mythic aftermath jailer or normal style?
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#47 Apr 01 2010 at 6:27 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Justice Multi-Attack is different than Joytoy. Well, all justice weapons are different. Your triple and double attack trait/gear will stack on top of if. I assumed Majian double-attack is like Joytoy/Ridill/Kclub/etc, in that the weapons multi-procs take precedence b4 equip/trait, and you can't proc a multi attack on top of the weapon's proc.

If what you are saying is true then that would make Athame (double-attack dagger) even less interesting.

IMO the good thing about these new daggers is that they give the players options. If you don't want to spend 1-2mil on a blau fine. Here is your Dakini with 4DEX, 8acc and 34DMG. If you don't want to quest or if you are unlucky with fane augments or X's no problem. Here we have something that is 100% if you work for it.


About your second question: I have no idea.
#48 Apr 01 2010 at 7:42 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Justice Multi-Attack is different than Joytoy. Well, all justice weapons are different. Your triple and double attack trait/gear will stack on top of if. I assumed Majian double-attack is like Joytoy/Ridill/Kclub/etc, in that the weapons multi-procs take precedence b4 equip/trait, and you can't proc a multi attack on top of the weapon's proc.


I thought this was how all multi proc items worked. M kris has the same issue. The only reason we never discuss joytoy is because thief can't equip it, and Ridill/k clubs are much rarer in comparison. Since we only have a D ranking in sword and an E ranking in club it's not worth using them in too many situations so it's not really brought up, but the weapons have always interfered with our natural multi proc trait.

Edited, Apr 1st 2010 9:43am by Melphina
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#49 Apr 01 2010 at 8:32 AM Rating: Good
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You'd be surprised how often I use ridill actually, it's pretty awesome on mobs DC/EM or lower, and it seems like I'm always fighting stuff of that level (and I never farm). I'd go so far as to say it's possibly more useful for Thief than any other job. Not so much the TP gain really. It's faster, but you also notice significantly more DoT.

Jailer weapon double-attack is indeed difference. But I'm really kinda wondering if instead, traits take precedence over weapon multi proc. Mehz. Well, I already did my calculations on Athame using normal style multi-proc, and it still came out slightly faster than Sirocco and with more BD/Delay DPS than almost all other daggers. If it has jailer style double attack, I'd say it'd be pretty **** good. It'd have phenomenal TP gain and BD/Delay DPS roughly equal to 39+2 Mandau. But I doubt that'll be the case, since jailer weapons are the exception and not the rule.
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Shamaya, Asura
#50 Apr 01 2010 at 11:31 AM Rating: Good
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It would be wicked awesome if they were like jailer weapons. I still have fond memories of using Drg with homam corazza and Love Halberd procing both DA and TA in 1 round. 4hit lance rounds just make me feel all warm and fuzzy. Translating that to a dagger with thfs natural high triple rate.....we can have 7hit rounds of melee...or.....should you actually get TWO of these then you could get EIGHT hit melee rounds. Friggin aweseome. But as Shamaya pointed out, jailers are the exception not the rule. However, the point about Joy testing being done on War accounting for 45% rate over an even 50% sound plausible. I might take my Pld/Dnc and parse some campaign and make sure im not using brutal and parse joy-toy rate.

Honestly, if you can equip two, i am strongly considering going for a second one (assuming you can get two of the same version and once DA rate has been verified). D31 isnt really to shabby for WS, and the DPS/TP gain would be just insane. Anyonoe know if theres any limitations on Augment?

I would neet to check some numbers, but my gut says if you could use a second one, it could very well be the best non-relic combo available. Not to mention you wont get gimped over 100% TP like blau.

...../sadface i just checked my inventory. Both my bradamante(lance) and athame are Aug/Rare/Ex. We cant use two, not even the gimpy 2xatk D18 verson. The elemental daggers arent rare however. But the D38 and DA versions are ; ; The earlier stages are NOT rare so i got my hopes up ><

Oh well. Now to get the 10 vnm items and ill have both of these sick new weapons!
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#51 Apr 01 2010 at 5:03 PM Rating: Good
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Just was reading over at BG and someone posted about Mythic double-attack is jailer style. Fingers still crossed on the Magian OAT :X, will keep my eyes peeled.
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