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#1 Feb 02 2010 at 2:42 PM Rating: Excellent
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I finally have some time to post this. A short review of Vajra after a few events:

Thank you:
I want to say thank you to all the people who helped me get this dagger. It was a long journey. I was surprised to see there are a lot of nice people in this game. People I did not know at all sometimes gave me free alexandrites.

In random order thank you: Seeko, Tsola, Syagin, Dazusu, Metro, Casto, Neo (Dhamel), Ehud, Cinon, Thanopstru, Shaka (royal taru), Yarko, Rizko, Airplane, Dryroot LS, Metrosio, Brotherhood, Guyle, Arcon, Kani, Megaboss LS, Fuuun, Chiefbootron and all other people I am forgetting now. Thank you!


Quest:
The end of the quest is a lot of fun and had me worried. I want to explain it for people who will do this quest in the future.
This is the rat I have started to hate over time: Pararoon. He took all my alex ;_;
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a372/Breaze/Vajra3.jpg

Next a scene in the palace. I finally get Vajra (locked).
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a372/Breaze/Vajra4.jpg

Now you have to do a solo BC fight against a Hydra type monster. I was dreading this moment for months. Because I worried about getting d/c during the fight. If you d/c during the fight you get kicked out of the area when you log back in. And you lose all your T4 items.

The fight against Zahak (Hydra) was very easy. I only used one hi-potion here. Bolts do not proc on Hydra. You have to take of its heads with weaponskills. For some reason my Hydra glitched and I had to do four weaponskills. Maybe this is normal.
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a372/Breaze/Vajra5.jpg

After Hydra you fight Balrahn. He uses your weapon against you and does dagger weaponskills in my case. After you get him to 80% HP he will use Mandy stab and he says something. At this point you have to weaponskill him with Mandy stab. I used weaponskills at 100 -> 200 -> 300 tp. But I also read you can go 300 -> 200 -> 100 tp. If you go the second option you have to wait for the aftermath to wear off. Which is annoying.
Important bring bolts to this fight. Blind, acid and bloody all proc on Balrahn. Your inventory will love you for it. I used sushi to land bolts but looking back meat should have worked just as well. Again this fight is really easy. It is nearly impossible to lose. Unless you d/c.
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a372/Breaze/Vajra6.jpg

After you win there is a CS. You can find the rest of the quest info on wiki:
http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Forging_a_New_Myth

Looks:
The weapon looks like it comes from India. It has this exotic look. I love it. It goes really well with skadi body. Good job SE on the design.
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a372/Breaze/Vajra10.jpg

SA testing:
A short test: Vajra enhances SA effect: how?

My prediction for this test:
I predict that Vajra "enhances SA" will work the same or a bit better then X's. That seems fair and realistic to me for a dagger that is hard to get and starts with a lower base damage: 31 vs 34.

thf/nin SA test with gear:
STR 65+16
DEX 82+54
attack 410
no food during all tests

Test1:
Area: South Gustaberg

Four rounds with different daggers:

I wanted to use behemoth knife as a control dagger. Since its base damage is 31, the same as Vajra. Too bad somebody jacked the price on my server for behemoth knife. AH history is 10k ten times in a row. And I could not buy it for 30k. Price jackers can kiss my Vajra.

thf knife, base dmg: 28 (control dagger)
All targets - Tunnel worm:
1. 525
2. 540
3. 514
4. 529
5. 539
6. 533
7. 515
8. 549
9. 528
10.527

high:549 low:514 average:529,9


X's knife, base dmg: 34 Increases crit damage
All targets - Tunnel worm:
1. 614
2. 624
3. 616
4. 561
5. 601
6. 577
7. 535
8. 574
9. 603
10.616

high:624 low:535 average:592,1


Vajra, base dmg: 31 Enhances SA effect
All targets - Tunnel worm:
1. 605
2. 595
3. 572
4. 579
5. 597
6. 603
7. 517
8. 614
9. 591
10.587

high:614 low:517 average:586

Oh dear do you see that? X's knife average:592,1. Vajra average:586. First test and X's beats Vajra on SA. SE please don't do this to me. Well it is a small sample size. So that should/could be the problem. Right SE?

Vajra/X's, base dmg: 31 Enhances SA effect, Increases crit damage
All targets - Tunnel worm:
1. 597
2. 643
3. 667
4. 671
5. 658
6. 660
7. 654
8. 666
9. 668
10.598

high:671 low:597 average:648,2

No surprise here. This tells me the bonus of both Vajra/X's stack with each other.

Test 2:
Area: Wajaom Woodlands

This second test is on Lesser Colibri. I left out my control dagger here. I was shocked to see the results from test 1. X's knife beating Vajra was a fluke. Right SE?

X's knife, base dmg: 34 Increases crit damage
targets - two Lesser Colibri (EP):
1. 696
2. 682
3. 657
4. 592
5. 688
6. 647
7. 596
8. 605
9. 601
10.641

high:696 low:592 average:640,5

Vajra, base dmg: 31 Enhances SA effect
targets - two Lesser Colibri (EP):
1. 583
2. 621
3. 656
4. 687
5. 708
6. 580
7. 627
8. 640
9. 652
10.566

high:708 low:566 average:632

Ouch! X's knife average:640,5. Vajra average:632 After my first euphoric feeling of getting the dagger and seeing how pretty it looks this was painful to see. X's knife wins this round again! Small sample size bla bla bla.

Vajra/X's, base dmg: 31 Enhances SA effect, Increases crit damage
targets - three Lesser Colibri (EP):
1. 803
2. 622
3. 752
4. 740
5. 708
6. 773
7. 815
8. 676
9. 720
10.830

high:830 low:622 average:743,9

Again no surprise here. Vajra/X's is a nice combo I think.

Test 3:
Area: Mount Z.

Now I am thinking does a monsters defense has anything to do with this? I mean will Vajra pull ahead on VT/IT monsters? Lets find out.

X's knife, base dmg: 34 Increases crit damage
target - one Hilltroll Ranger (VT):
1. 382
2. 314
3. 322
4. 331
5. 293
6. 380
7. 399
8. 385
9. 355
10.337

high:399 low:293 average:349,8

Vajra, base dmg: 31 Enhances SA effect
targets - two Hilltroll Ranger (VT):
1. 350
2. 401
3. 357
4. 340
5. 295
6. 336
7. 367
8. 356
9. 322
10.419

high:419 low:295 average:354,3

Okay that is more like it. X's knife average:349,8. Vajra average:354,3. Vajra finally wins a round. About time.

Vajra/X's, base dmg: 31 Enhances SA effect, Increases crit damage
target - one Hilltroll Ranger (VT):
1. 454
2. 341
3. 320
4. 315
5. 429
6. 336
7. 381
8. 357
9. 364
10.421

high:454 low:315 average:371,8

Aftermath:
Next up the attack boost on level 2 aftermath. I read something about it already on BG and I can confirm most of it.
http://www.bluegartrls.com/forum/showthread.php?t=71538

The Aftermath effects for Vajra last for 60/90/120 seconds.

Base attack in tp gear no food: 354
tp at 207 attack:376 - 354 = 22 attack
tp at 299 attack 413 - 354 = 59 attack

The level 3 aftermath is pretty awesome also. It should work well in situations where you can start a fight with 300tp. But holding tp in a merit party to force level 3 aftermath does not seem to work well. More on that later.

Vajra parse
Now it was time to put this dagger to the test in a merit party with some proper DD. I asked Yarko (pimp amano sam) and Rizko (Pimp war E.body and all the nice trimmings).
Camp: Mamool Staging point - North side.

Setup:
Breaze thf/nin (food red curry bun then yellow curry bun)
Yarko sam/war used Amano
Rizko war/sam used GA
Metrosio brd/nin
Luckk brd/whm
Syagin rdm/whm

Damage done:
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a372/Breaze/Vajra8.jpg
Yarko (sam/war) destroyed us and did 40% of all damage. No surprize there. What can I say? Hax weapon, hax job, hax skillchain. Kaiten <-> Mandy stab is light. King's Justice <-> Mandy stab is light. It was so much fun.

This parse lasted 1 hour and 5 min. The actual party was longer in which Rizko (war/sam) died twice. When he died Yarko stopped the parse. That was too bad because I am pretty sure I would have beaten Rizko if they kept the parse going.
And even in this parse I don't think I did that bad. Me 28% versus the war/sam 31%.

Damage taken:
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a372/Breaze/Vajra9.jpg
In my defence I did not take a lot of damage compared to the sam and war. But who cares about that right?

Aftermath level 3 in merits?:
When I started this party I wanted to test the aftermath level 3 effect. Is it good damage? Get 300tp -> WS -> get 2min double attack effect -> get 300tp -> WS -> ect. After 30 min Yarko asked me to use WS at 100tp. I did and he told me it looked better in the parse. It is too bad he did not save that very first parse. For now I am assuming saving tp to 300 is not the way to go in a merit party.
But further testing is needed.

Conclusion:
After a few days I have mixed feelings about this dagger. Yes it looks great and Vajra is a very decent dagger. It certainly is not bad. Vajra/X's makes for a great combo.
My prediction about the SA enhancement did not hold up. X's won on too weak and EP monsters. Vajra won by a small margin on VT monsters. I was predicting them do the same amount of damage. Or even Vajra pulling ahead in all situations. Unfortunately this did not happen.

The dagger seems to lack a bit of punch. Why is its base damage so low at 31?

I have this feeling SE had planned this dagger (and the whole mythic weapon line) for a long time. I am thinking they planned it even before the dagger update three years ago. Then when they finally realised the dagger they forgot to give Vajra the post-lvl-68-dagger-update.

From what I remember: Pre-dagger-update:
Mandau: 32 dmg
X's knife: 29 dmg?

Post-dagger-update:
Mandau: 39 dmg
X's knife: 34 dmg

It seems to me Vajra needs a boost in base damage it has never gotten. Lets say around 35-37 seems fair. This puts it right in between X's and Mandau. If SE decided to give Vajra a boost in base damage it would also show in the parse I did. I would have been even closer to the war/sam or I could have beaten him. Which seems fair to me.

Questions for readers:
1. How could I test the level 1 aftermath? Idea's welcome.
2. Is there something you want me to test and how? (please keep it realistic, I want to play the game also.)

Edited, Jul 8th 2010 12:24am by Breaze
#2 Feb 02 2010 at 3:45 PM Rating: Excellent
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Wouldn't it be reasonable to do it the same way as we used to figure out an aura statue's evasion? Go to sky as thf/sam and check aura statues till you get the normal evasion message, note accuracy. use meditate till you're over 100tp, engage, use MS, disengage and hide, re-check. repeat with necessary gear changes at the same 120 tp mark.

I know i missed a few details in there, but the concept is there.



edit: realized that you could easily check the acc boost at 100 tp as well by hitting med,waiting for first tic, swapping vajra out then back in before second tic on the first med to end up with only 100 tp. You could then use that as a baseline for the 120 tp test.

Edited, Feb 2nd 2010 6:42pm by Urathsa
#3 Feb 02 2010 at 3:52 PM Rating: Decent
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So basically it's almost as good as X's knife on normal defense or lower, and minutely better on high defense...with **** poor DPS and a mediocre aftermath affect with an inferior WS?

Glad to see that V/X stack. I'm guessin Vajra had no affect in offhand?

Would be nice to see it's damage with something extreme like Hope's boost affect, Love's/Kirin's defense, etc. Might be situations where it is actually a lot better and worth using...cause your tests don't show it being worthwhile in many situations.

I wonder if it is adding damage as opposed to a multiplier like X's, which might explain why it takes less of a hit on higher defense things.

In the end 31/200 doesn't really inspire confidence that this would be worth the trouble when you could just sell alexes and buy an X's knife with a fraction of the effort.

Grats nonetheless and cool beans you tested it and posted.
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#4 Feb 02 2010 at 3:53 PM Rating: Good
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Just wanted to say Congratz on Vajra!!!!
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#5 Feb 03 2010 at 12:05 AM Rating: Good
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Grats again!

Just a couple days after getting it and you're already feeding us with info ^^. Much <3. And nobody else that's gotten one could've been messed about to do the same.

Testing Acc
For testing acc, what urathsa said would work fine. I was going to recommend just building TP on greater/lesser colibri solo as thf/nin, WS'ing, and then using hide. As he said, verify the point at which you get a message threshold; ie, the thresholds between low:normal and normal:high evasion. Do the check b4 you engage. Then engage that mob and build TP, WS, hide, disengage. And try to check on the acc boost before your aftermath wears off. It might be helpful to have macros to swap from your solo equip, into some acc/eva testing equip. Might have to play around a few times before you find the value.

Also, does the potency of the boost decrease over the duration of the aftermath? Like how feint loses potency steadily from the start to the end of its duration? Or was your level2 +attack aftermath a static number the whole time?

Testing "Enhances Sneak Attack" Effect
I'm thinking too that it's a +Dex/Agi% improvement like the AF+1 hands, just per the text reading. It certainly isn't an artificial, invisible boost to attack (like on Sam's Y/G/K WS's), or you wouldn't gain any boost at all vs worms.

So is I'm guessing the boost is 1 of 3 things:
(1)+Dex/Agi%
Ex: (BD + fStr + Dex/Agi*1.xx)*pDif
(2)+pDif
Ex: (BD + fStr + Dex/Agi)*(pDif +0.xxx)
(3)Straight Multiplier
Ex: (BD + fStr + Dex/Agi]) * pDif * 1.xxMultiplier

X's Knife is either (2) or (3) and I suppose the thinking for now (and the thinking that seems more natural and consistent) would be (2). Off the top of my head, I've previously seen it quoted at a +10% or +12% straight multiplier (*1.1, *1.12), and also as a +0.3 pDif boost.

(1)Is easy enough to test, so I'd go for that if you want to find the precise boost, Breaze. What you'll need to do is this:
*In the above formula, you can control BD (static), fStr (capped) and pDif (capped). Leaving your only variable as Dex/Agi. Do a test in low dex (possibly with -gear) first, and then do another with as much dex as you can stack.
*Obviously gonna be fighting stuff like tunnel worms and/or rabbits. So your pDif is gonna be capped, and you can look at the max/min for capped crit pDif on wiki: http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/PDIF
Keep getting samples until your highest recorded SA, divided by your lowest recorded SA, is close to the same number as the known capped-Pdif crit max divided by the min (which is 3.45 / 2.58 = 1.337, funny enough).

News Flash. Our knowledge of the pDif formulas (for 1 handers at least) has changed (finally). I just looked at that wiki article and it seems like it was already updated. I was gonna give you the heads up on this recent pDif testing done by a Frenchy on BG by the name of Masamunai. If you're extra curious on these pDif cap values, you can check out what he's written there.

*After you've got a sample of SA's at low dex, where your (highest dmg)/(lowest dmg) = ~1.337, then you've got a sufficient sample size. Stack an f.ton of dex, and then start doing SA's again. If an SA ever strikes higher than your previous high (outside of the 1.337 boundry), then Vajra's SA Effect Enhancement is being modified by +Dex%.
*To find out the precise enhancement in that case, simply repeat the same test and get a ~1.337 ratio between highest and lowest strikes, when in your buffed +dex set. After that, take the average SA dmg from your +dex set, and the avg dmg from your low dex set, and work backwards algebraically using the SA formula ((BD + fStr + Dex/Agi*1.xx)*pDif) to figure out what 'xx' is.

If you already knew all that, forgive the explanation ;X


If Vajra's boost is via +Dex/Agi%, I imagine it'd work better in lower def situations (though in those situations, your fStr would also be higher too). If via +pDif, I'd say it'd work better in higher def situations (though again, fStr would be lower here).

As for your samples that you did. The first two make it look like X's and Vajra give an equal bonus. If you account for the difference in X's base dmg, the two are quite close. The exception of course is the troll parse. But I'm inclined to think that the sample size isn't high enough.

For tunnel worms in your first test, looks like your X's knife high/low was about 1.16 and for Vajra it was 1.18. Not quite at the 1.337 value yet. For the trolls, your high/low with Vajra was actually 1.42, which would be impossible. That, or the new pDif information is wrong. I just looked and you fought 2 different hilltroll rangers. So they probably differed in level which is what caused this.


Also a final (noob) question. Do Mythic weapons get the 'relic triple'; 2.5x or 3x dmg procs? And grats again^^

Edited, Feb 3rd 2010 10:09am by Shamaya
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#6 Feb 03 2010 at 12:31 AM Rating: Excellent
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Just wanted to point out, for SA tests, really, only the max damage matters not the avg. The max damage will tell us what the bonus is. 10 tests makes the avg a bad mesure because you could just have had bad luck.

Didnt have time to check all of them, but the worm tests are all as expected. Looking at max damage (3.15 crit pdif):

Dex+Fstr+base damage
TK=174
X=180
Vaj=177

Expected damage (your max damage)
TK=174*3.15=548.1 (549): Good
X=180*3.15*1.1=623.7 (624): Good. The 1.1 is the 10% bonus of Xs
Vaj=177*3.15*1.1=613.3 (614) Good. Its the same 10% as Xs.
These are exactly as expected.


Vaj/X=177*3.15*1.1*1.1=674.6 (671)
Vaj/X=177*3.15*1.2=6.69 (671)

The 1st is if the bonus of vaj/x multiply eachother. (Damage+10%)+10% The second is if the 10% of X and Vaj are just stuck together simultaniously as a 20% boost. You overshoot the 20% so Im guessing they multiply which is better, but you never hit 674/675 so im guessing you just didnt get the true max in only 10 tests. More would be appreciated. Otherwise there might be some funky flooring going on.

The higher level tests on both EP colibri and the trolls show vaj with a higher max damage. Pure speculation, but I am guessing Vaj adds some ignore defense or +pdif to SA (and by extension TA). Your would not be capped on lesser coli without food though it would be very high and thus your max damage was not significantly higher than Xs. But it was enough to overcome the base damage difference and then some. This is more pronounced on the much harder trolls reinforcing some sort of atk/pdif bonus or ignore def.

Considering Mandalic stab adds atk, adding attack to SA with vaj sounds plausible.

This is still looking very promising on higher end mobs. Stacking X/vaj on hard things will have some MEAN damage on SA/TA/WS by combining two 10% straight bonuses and whatever Vaj is doing to SA/TA with atk/def and Mandalic stab as a WS adding atk. HNMs look out!
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Edit: Sham beat me, but the dex thing like AF+1 could also be plausibe. But the 10% lines up well so far. As Shamaya suggests, testing with wildy different levels of Dex will cement if its 10% of maybe just +10% dex. Either way, its adding ~10% more damage. That migh also account for the funky rounding that may have thrown of the Vaj+X SA numbers from the expected values.

Edited, Feb 3rd 2010 1:37am by Banalaty
Edit2:
I removed the 10% assumed bonus on Vaj and replaced it with 10% and 15% dex bonuses. The 10% comes up short of the actual damage. The 15% bonus (floored like AF+1) comes out to 620.55. Your max was 614. Unless its something dumb like a 12.5% bonus to dex, its looking like a flat 10%. If you ever get a max damage of 620, we will know better, but for now it looks like 10% straight damage to me.

Edited, Feb 3rd 2010 1:43am by Banalaty
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#7 Feb 03 2010 at 6:24 PM Rating: Excellent
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Thanks all for the reply's. I will do some more tests soonish.

Wanted to add this: the level 1 aftermath bonus was already found. It is +10 at 100tp and scales up linear to +19 at 199tp. I can't believe I missed that.
http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Aftermath
Scroll down to the bottom.

The level 2 attack bonus is a static bonus and does not diminish over time (like feint does). So I assume the same goes for the level 1 accuracy bonus.

I also have not seen any triple damage like you see on relic weapons. That would be awesome but I am not expecting to see those.
#8 Feb 03 2010 at 9:54 PM Rating: Good
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Ehh scratch what I said before about 1.337 ratio. I haven't yet read 100% through this thread nor the updated wiki. Can see in this graph that the spread of capped crit max & min is not 1.0. My mistake, that should have been obvious. Looking at that graph, if it's right, the ratio of max/min at cap for crits is about 1.1864... So some of your worm samples are pretty good, even for being so small. Troll one is definitely way out though.

Should probably finish reading that thread though. It's definitely an important thread since pDif is key to any of the algebra we try to do here.

Edited, Feb 4th 2010 4:02am by Shamaya
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#9 Feb 04 2010 at 11:19 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
In the end 31/200 doesn't really inspire confidence that this would be worth the trouble when you could just sell alexes and buy an X's knife with a fraction of the effort.


While I was happy to read about Vajra's numbers and all (at one point I had really wanted to go for this), this kind of caught my attention. How does one buy an X's knife? I thought it was rare/ex from a BC fight only.
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#10 Feb 04 2010 at 12:16 PM Rating: Decent
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Lewkis wrote:

Quote:
Quote:
In the end 31/200 doesn't really inspire confidence that this would be worth the trouble when you could just sell alexes and buy an X's knife with a fraction of the effort.


While I was happy to read about Vajra's numbers and all (at one point I had really wanted to go for this), this kind of caught my attention. How does one buy an X's knife? I thought it was rare/ex from a BC fight only.


You pay people to keep coming to the ENM with you. The drop rate is so bad that people will lose interest in helping you after some time. On top of that, there isn't any other worthwhile drops in this ENM to keep people coming back to help you. I did it for 3 months before my friends got fed up.

I wish SE would buffs the other weapons or add worthwhile sellable drops so that more people would take interest in coming with you. The ENM is very easy but very hard to solo unless you are super good at it.
#11 Feb 04 2010 at 1:35 PM Rating: Good
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congratulations on finishing the item, and thank you for posting info here.

i'm posting in this thread to point out that there's hidden knowledge in the first post, that a lot of misguided posters should take note of:

Breaze wrote:

Vajra parse

Setup:
Breaze thf/nin (food red curry bun then yellow curry bun)
Yarko sam/war used Amano
Rizko war/sam used GA
Metrosio brd/nin
Luckk brd/whm
Syagin rdm/whm

Damage done:
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a372/Breaze/Vajra8.jpg

Damage taken:
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a372/Breaze/Vajra9.jpg


a lot of people worry about "being an MP sponge" even in a merit party. but look at that parse. yarko did 40%~ damage while rizko did 30%~ damage. however, they took roughly the same damage. what's going on here? in merit parties, hate works in chunks, generally following who happens to be WSing at the time and who's melee damage is the highest (often gets early hate). you share hate. you even share hate when you parse someone into the ground, assuming they don't suck.

also note, these DDs did 280,000~ damage, and took 23,000 damage~. taking player damage buys you more mob damage and XP than it costs you MP. i really wish everyone could understand this.
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#12 Feb 04 2010 at 1:43 PM Rating: Good
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Lewkis wrote:
Quote:
In the end 31/200 doesn't really inspire confidence that this would be worth the trouble when you could just sell alexes and buy an X's knife with a fraction of the effort.


While I was happy to read about Vajra's numbers and all (at one point I had really wanted to go for this), this kind of caught my attention. How does one buy an X's knife? I thought it was rare/ex from a BC fight only.


You go with a merc group and if the knife drops, you buy lotting rights.
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#13 Feb 04 2010 at 4:07 PM Rating: Decent
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Nice collection of info.


Quote:
I have this feeling SE had planned this dagger (and the whole mythic weapon line) for a long time. I am thinking they planned it even before the dagger update three years ago. Then when they finally realised the dagger they forgot to give Vajra the post-lvl-68-dagger-update.


I actually don't think this is the case. If you look at the other mythic weapons, almost all of them have DMG ratings that are lower than even the standard AH fare used by several jobs at 75.

That's not to say that I don't think the weapons should be upgraded, but I do think that pretty much all the mythics got ****** DMG-wise, not just the daggers.
#14 Feb 04 2010 at 5:26 PM Rating: Decent
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I think the low DMG on mythics reflects the double attack aftermath, SE didn't want them overpowered.

It seems to me Relics enhance melee more-so than mages, and vice-versa for Mythics.

Many congratulations, that is quite an accomplishment and I'd think a Vajra (melee mythic) owner would always be satisfied with its relatively high DD and the options they give.
#15 Feb 04 2010 at 7:13 PM Rating: Good
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I think the low DMG on mythics reflects the double attack aftermath, SE didn't want them overpowered.


Not like anyone would regularly save to 300 TP to get it. It practically negates the whole purpose of having a 50~% DA rate, but as far as SE logic goes this is par for the course.

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It seems to me Relics enhance melee more-so than mages, and vice-versa for Mythics.


In general I would say yeah, particularly for WHM, although I have heard of people pulling off some neat **** with Mjollnir + Mystic Boon. Yagrush has a killer mod but is pretty much a worthless offensive weapon. (Although, apparently, it can greatly enhance the potential hate generation of WHM with potential AoE -na spam, allowing for increased tanking opportunities, if for some reason you always dreamed of tanking **** on your WHM...)

For the more offensively-based mages though, I'm pretty sure their mythics are still crap/going to be crap once someone finally gets one. There's Nirvana, but really, all of that for -1 perp? Oyyy. I'd have to be career SMN to even think about wanting that over going for anything else, and I would never wish being a career SMN on anyone. >_>
#16 Feb 04 2010 at 9:06 PM Rating: Decent
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*edit* Nevermind, the question I was gonna ask was answered in another thread I spotted.

Edited, Feb 4th 2010 7:14pm by Lewkis
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#17 Feb 04 2010 at 9:25 PM Rating: Excellent
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In response to Lewkis:

The fane baselard can be an excellent mainhand dagger if you get a good augment, but you would always use the blau dolch in the offhand if you own it. The blau dolch is so powerful that barring thief knife scenarios you always have it in ONE hand when dual wielding. Since the fane baselard sucks in the offhand that makes the choice pretty easy. One of the better augments I've seen was a damage + 6, accuracy + 10, triple attack + 1 augment, but a friend of mine from unicorn sent me a PM last year saying he saw someone with an augmented damage + 6, accuracy + 10, triple attack + 2%. That's like... the ultimate combo barring relic.

That said, augments of THAT calibur are ridiculously rare. However there are some pretty good ones to be had in Grauberg (s). Here's a screenshot of my two best daggers

Screenshot



As far as X's knife goes, I actually believe the merc rout is the better way to obtain it. The drop rate is so random and the dagger so desired that a static with more than one or two members who want one will almost never be able to stay together long enough to see everyone's drop to completion. That's how I got my x's knife. I paid 5 million gil for mine to a merc group. It was awesome to watch. They were a simple 3 man static that did the BCNM for money drops weekly anyways. An aegis/D ring /valhalla helm/askar etc etc paladin with a bard and whm support. The paladin freakin soloed all 5 mobs at once, the mithran sister's skillchains barely phased him. I think he was /rdm too (it's been a while) but it was cool as ****. I just poked stuff on the side. I have no regrets I chose that rout, and considering the alternatives of setting up a static and praying it lasts should anyone else get the chance to have theirs merced I wouldn't think they whould either.

Edited, Feb 5th 2010 11:20am by Melphina
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#18 Feb 04 2010 at 10:36 PM Rating: Good
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I've seen people offer to merc it but yeah, it's something that isn't commonly done. Someone wanting to merc will probably have to set it up themselves by finding people specifically for it, or finding an ENM group.

It also is important to note that you can do the BCNM more frequently than you might think.. You should try and always find 'dummies' if possible. You could find people on Saturday, tell them about mercing their services, and go do the pre-requisite bcnm with them that very night. The following day, after JP midnight, you should return to the BCNM. It's very important, however, that everyone exits the BCNM before opening the chest, and that only 'the dummy' opens the chest. People outside the BC will still be able to lot on the contents. And then you can return to Tavnazia for what might be a little surprise. I could be more specific/detailed about this, but something is telling me not to.


I don't want to derail off into 2hander damage theory. But what you mentioned earlier Milich is and isn't true. I've been in so many parties, that I can tell that some parties are definitely 'ok' and sometimes better off going the bloody DD route. But there are many parties who also cannot handle 2-3 bloody DD's. Either something is wrong w/ the DD's, the support, or otherwise. You pay in blood for more DPS and faster xp/hr, but when someone ends up dying (like the War dying twice within an hour or more), this almost positively equals a net loss in damage. In all honesty, a /nin who parses at 28% is probably helping party utility a lot more than a /sam or /war who is parsing at 30%. If that /sam or /war is parsing like 36% and not dying or hindering the party from having MP to function, then that's a greater increase in utility.

Disheartening man, thinking of how to even use the Vajra. Maybe Red Curry Bunn and gain a little edge from using the accuracy bonus from Mandalic Stab? Or do DE? Possibly Vajra/X's and push Evisceration to new limits? Use pizza and then, in the event of using Mandalic Stab, go with a lower acc tp build to compensate? Anwig Salade for no aftermath, turban for with aftermath? I just DK. Perhaps Vajra/X's is particularly excellent for a fight like Ixion, or Vajra/war for JoL. I'm struggling to think of the best possible uses, even assuming the SA/TA buff is identical to X's boost increase.
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#19 Feb 05 2010 at 12:13 AM Rating: Good
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SA/TA buff is identical to X's boost increase.


I really think that it is stronger based on the numbers. On atk capped mobs it showed exactly the same bonus, but on higher level non-atk capped targets, it became progessivly stronger until it beat Xs in both min and max damage AFTER compensating for the lower base damage.

The sample is small, but the results are still telling. I very much believe that there is a 10% just like X's and something else tossed in regarding +atk/Ignore Def or Pdif bonus. Need more testing to figure out what though.

This is still sounding like a zerg or HNM dagger to me. Store TP>unleash **** on a zerg. Enjoy incredible SA/TA/WS on HNM with Vaj or Vaj/X's and Mandalic stab would be the WS of choice anyway so you at least get some aftermath options and depending on buffs etc, could look into the higher tier aftermaths.

After we found out that the aftermath doesnt stack, needs 300tp, and doesnt overwrite itself, it was pretty much determined that none of the DD mythics would be any good in a merit type situation except under very choreographed situations. The all looked promising for zergs, and ours has some promise on HNMs for the above reasons.

Edited, Feb 5th 2010 1:16am by Banalaty
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#20 Feb 05 2010 at 1:02 AM Rating: Good
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This is still sounding like a zerg or HNM dagger to me.


Zerg dagger? I thought any dagger can land Feint and get you swapped out of the alliance for some 2-hander melee just fine.

You might as well do it with the Thief's Knife and kill two birds with one stone (Feint *AND* TH!)

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#21 Feb 05 2010 at 2:41 AM Rating: Good
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w cheeky. well thf/war and thf/nin aside, thf/drk goes along with mnk/drk as the next strongest DD after drk for souleater-able, longer (ie not the most sam-friendly) zergs. That is, the damage is comparable to a war/sam using mighty strikes, or a very good one not using it. but either way you're just joshin -.-

About Breaze's test on trolls, it's gotta be redone. Earlier I mentioned that in order to have a sufficient sample size of sneak attacks, his highest sneak attack dmg / divided by the lowest sneak attack dmg will have to be close to ~1.186. He said that he did the test on 2 different trolls, and his ratio came out to be 1.4. This is supposedly impossible, at least if obeying normal pDif rules. Even a hidden attack bonus would not be able to adjust the pDif cap. So either something else is going on, or the test was no good because it was tested on trolls of varying levels. So we need a retest high-def stuff.

Edited, Feb 5th 2010 9:57am by Shamaya
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#22 Feb 05 2010 at 9:06 AM Rating: Decent
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Mythic could be boosted if only the DA was at 200tp and martial worked offhand.

But, I am happy to see the dagger worked out way better than I assumed it would. For the amounts of work and gil required, it still seems like the most ridiculous rip-off in ffxi history. At least it can be fun.

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#23 Feb 05 2010 at 10:24 AM Rating: Excellent
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About Breaze's test on trolls, it's gotta be redone. Earlier I mentioned that in order to have a sufficient sample size of sneak attacks, his highest sneak attack dmg / divided by the lowest sneak attack dmg will have to be close to ~1.186. He said that he did the test on 2 different trolls, and his ratio came out to be 1.4. This is supposedly impossible, at least if obeying normal pDif rules. Even a hidden attack bonus would not be able to adjust the pDif cap. So either something else is going on, or the test was no good because it was tested on trolls of varying levels. So we need a retest high-def stuff.


Diamondhide. Stoneskin will do that, so trolls are useless to parse against if you're looking for sneak and trick attack data. Redo the test on a mob that can't insta cast a damage absorbtion tp move. Better yet, pick a mob that can't raise its own defenses or absorb damage by itself at all. ANYTHING that can be a self buff, from protect to stoneskin to phalanx will nullify tests of sneak and trick attack data. I've used sneak attack and landed my critical for less than 50 damage with x's knife on a troll because of stoneskin. Any mob with similar abilities is worthless. Pick a non beastman type target like phuabo's or flamingos. Xzomits have Molluscous Mutation (Defense Boost) and Hpmedes take triple damage when their mouth is open.

You get the idea. I'd just test on Flamingos in sky for simplicity (alternately colibri work too, but flamingos won't eat your food and if you're eating meat that will also skew data, so you'll have to not eat food at all). The 1.25 piercing bonus multiplier will be constant on every bird, and it's not like they're dangerous or anything. They're also not short in supply either and you get signet bonuses. Just open with a sneak attack on every fight and kick ***. Rinse, repeat, record and repost.

Edited, Feb 6th 2010 5:44am by Melphina
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#24 Feb 05 2010 at 10:48 AM Rating: Excellent
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Mistress Melphina wrote:


Diamondhide. Stoneskin will do that, so trolls are useless to parse against if you're looking for sneak and trick attack data. Redo the test on a mob that can't insta cast a damage absorbtion tp move. Better yet, pick a mob that can't raise its own defenses or absorb damage by itself at all. ANYTHING that can be a self buff, from protect to stoneskin to phalanx will nullify tests of sneak and trick attack data. I've used sneak attack and landed my critical for less than 50 damage with x's knife on a troll because of stoneskin. Any mob with similar abilities is worthless. Pick a non beastman type target like phuabo's or flamingos. Xzomits have Molluscous Mutation (Defense Boost) and HPmedes take triple damage when their mouth is open.


Actually, you can use something like that to narrow down a pdif/atk bonus(if there is such a bonus) by using something with a predictable buff that doesn't go down, and only using sa/ta when the ability is in use(best example would be crabs defense boost, since we know it gives a 100% boost and should be able to easily tell it's defense through /check tests).
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#25 Feb 05 2010 at 11:16 AM Rating: Excellent
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Actually, you can use something like that to narrow down a pdif/atk bonus(if there is such a bonus) by using something with a predictable buff that doesn't go down, and only using sa/ta when the ability is in use(best example would be crabs defense boost, since we know it gives a 100% boost and should be able to easily tell it's defense through /check tests).


That's a good point!! Phalanx/stoneskin and other damage absorbtion type abilities aren't good for testing, but straight defense up abilities are. Your example of crabs is a perfect choice. Scissor Guard will double the crabs defense, and it's easy to see. Robber crabs and steelshells in the boyhada tree are an excellent mob choice to test sa/ta bonuses against with regards to a pDIF adjustment. Technically crabs DO have Metallic body, but that's easy to work around. Directly quoting the wiki

Quote:
Metallic Body - 25 HP Stoneskin effect. (Does not differ with crab's level/type)


That's so weak you won't have any problems making sure it's not up when you land your critical. Plus the boyhada tree is an area where you can not only use signet bonuses, but also add your NPC helper for a trick attack partner. I don't know how effective sleep bolts are on steelshells though since they're a higher level paladin mob, but you can just use monomi + sneak attack to open on a crab and then use your npc helper to trick attack upon. Just make sure you use the same ta/sa set every time and record ta/sa numbers separately. Different criticals == different stats due to different gear (duh).

Edited, Feb 5th 2010 12:24pm by Melphina
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#26 Feb 05 2010 at 9:14 PM Rating: Decent
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Thanks for the response on Fane baselard, Melphina. I don't own a blau (though I'd love to) so I'll have to go with fane/sirocco for now. Where would you go to get augments for this particular weapon? I don't know a lot about the augment system, but I do know you get different level/types from different areas and whatnot.
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