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Give Thief a StanceFollow

#52 Nov 02 2009 at 1:27 AM Rating: Excellent
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Buront wrote:
i've thought for awhile now that a good way to give a boost to thief without being too overpowered, be a unique bonus, and deal with the problem of SATA not scaling well as you level up would be to give a series of traits that increase the damage of critical hits. it would be a boon at all stages of thief play and still remain inline with the thief MO.


Quote:
IE:
Critical mastery 1
Critical Mastery II
Critical Mastery III

Since in melee criticals are capped at 24% and in a non HNM scenario a critical is not as significant as it is in HNM that's my favorite idea for enhancing our damage that's been thrown out so far.


I really like this idea too.

Like BLMs MAB trait for THF and critical hits. That would definately help SA and TA scale better at 75 as well as giving Eviseration a nice pick me up.

signed seconded and thirded. Someone send this to sqeenix lol.
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#53 Nov 02 2009 at 1:31 AM Rating: Good
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not sure if you misread what i wrote or mistyped what you wrote, but in this thread at least you said increased critical hit rate (coupled with other drawbacks/benefits) in JA form, while i said a trait that increases critical hit damage.

if you still don't see the difference, its like comparing heartsnatcher to x's knife.
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#54 Nov 02 2009 at 1:58 AM Rating: Excellent
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Ev'rybody's talkin' 'bout
BRDism, WARism, DRGgism, SAMism, RDMism, PLDism
This-ism, that-ism, ism ism ism
All we are saying is give Thief a stance
All we are saying is give Thief a stance.

This is the only thing I could think of after reading the title.
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#55 Nov 02 2009 at 2:23 AM Rating: Decent
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Buront wrote:
not sure if you misread what i wrote or mistyped what you wrote, but in this thread at least you said increased critical hit rate (coupled with other drawbacks/benefits) in JA form, while i said a trait that increases critical hit damage.


Lobivopis wrote:

Something more reasonable might be a stance for 1H weapons. It would grant a x1.5 attack bonus to critical hits, increase critical hit rate and decrease weapon delay on 1H weapons but cut your evasion and defense by 20% each.


You weren't paying attention.



Edited, Nov 2nd 2009 4:42am by Lobivopis
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I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#56 Nov 02 2009 at 2:39 AM Rating: Good
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fair enough. i remember seeing that now, but i likely overlooked it because i don't have a firm enough grasp on the numbers to know how dramatic a 1.5x attack multiplier would have, which is why i kept my suggestion simple.

in either case, i think the stance you suggested in addition to the trait would be overpowered, but SE hasn't been subtle with their updates lately so who knows.
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Number of times I have reached 75 because of death: 100
Total Merits: 432 Levels until Maat Cap: 37
Why fight like a man when I can fight like a chick with a bear?
#57 Nov 02 2009 at 2:57 AM Rating: Good
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You see while Buront's idea is simple and realistic, Lobi's idea is too strong and overpowered. That's the difference between my arguments against his and the OP's proposed buffs versus the ones I said I like. I am not against thief getting a buff, but often times when players come up with ideas on improvements they dream big and throw out ideas that just get grander and grander as they go.

Buront's idea was simplistic in nature, and my idea on implementing it would be something like a simple 5%, 10% and 15% increase to critical hit damage, scaling according to level. 15% increase in crit damage at level 75 is getting pretty strong, but within a reasonable bounds for being grounds for fair play. Similar to x's it would act as a straight multiplier so a crit that did 500 damage now does 575 damage, and etc etc. It will bolster our weaponskills without breaking anything, and a non critical melee receives no benefit. Similarly in a tp burn it won't go too far because of the aforementioned crits meaning less anyway.

Lobi's idea on the other hand is COMPLETELY overpowered. First off... he proposed HUGE boosts to our damage while trying to balance that with the drawback of lowering our evasion and defense by 20%. Here's a hint Lobi: Within the god scenario you want to make us stronger in we will have a dedicated tank so we should never get swung at to begin with, and in a tp burn environment we will have shadows and companions to kill the beast too quickly for it to do much damage (and of course a mage to repair said damage). Trying to balance that kind of power with lowering our evasion and defense isn't a check at all... heck our defense ALREADY sucks but our evasion is naturally massive and we can gear swap to raise it to astronomical levels anyway.

Now as for the buffs you proposed a 1.5 attack boost to crits. That's WAY too much. On G colibri my attack for a solo crit is around the 500 mark and I do approximately 450-500 damage, but if I have a cor/bard and cap my attack that same critical hits for 750+ damage.. and 1.5 x 500 == 750 (basically capped). If a 1.5 attack boost to crits will cause such a grand change on lolibri just imagine what it would do on HNM. A boost to crit damage is fine but not THAT huge. That essentially combines merit style ta/sa solo damage with the massive attack multiplier of mandalic stab and the monstrous 50% dex modifier of shark bite. You'd easily be throwing out shark bites in the 1600-2000 damage range and that just isn't happening. The other accompanying buffs just make the already overpowered even more ridiculous. You are now adding an innate haste for us to make us attack even faster... and not only are you raising the damage a critical does by too much but you're also raising the frequency of which they happen as well. That just screams... BROKEN!!!

Contrary to what Lobi says I have never argued that I wouldn't LIKE a buff to my job. I'm all for making thief a bit stronger if done within reason. The problem is that every time Lobi comes up with an idea to "fix" thief he takes it so far out of the realm of reality that the game would fall to our knees if it was implemented. And I'm talking worse than sneak attack from the front and then some. However while Lobi's version is really bad I LIKE Buront's idea. A standalone boost to critical damage akin to what he or I threw out would do just fine. That's a type of change I WILL accept (and even wish for) with an open mind.

Edited, Nov 2nd 2009 10:47am by Melphina
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#58 Nov 02 2009 at 4:31 AM Rating: Default
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Mistress Melphina wrote:


Contrary to what Lobi says I have never argued that I wouldn't LIKE a buff to my job. I'm all for making thief a bit stronger if done within reason. The problem is that every time Lobi comes up with an idea to "fix" thief he takes it so far out of the realm of reality that the game would fall to our knees if it was implemented. And I'm talking worse than sneak attack from the front and then some. However while Lobi's version is really bad I LIKE Buront's idea. A standalone boost to critical damage akin to what he or I threw out would do just fine. That's a type of change I WILL accept (and even wish for) with an open mind.

Edited, Nov 2nd 2009 4:18am by Melphina


SE has been implementing broken ideas left and right lately. WHM with armored cures, SAM WS with 2.0 attack, RNGs doing reduced hate damage. SE's rule of the day seems to be "oh what the **** why not?" Two years ago your argument had merit. Lately it really doesn't.




Edited, Nov 2nd 2009 6:43am by Lobivopis
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I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#59 Nov 02 2009 at 7:38 AM Rating: Good
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Yes, it is true that you generally dont "need" more than 1 thf in most events. But you also dont "need" ANY sam. You just need "some" DDs of almost any kind. While i do acknowledge there is some problems if you came 5 min late and someone else already has the thf position filled. It sucks, (and especially for a new Thf without other jobs and trying to get into a group to GET the cool gear that gives us what DD potential we DO have).

In my particular LS, we have a number of TH4 options, but usually, it is either me or one of the sacks that goes thf. It works well for times we need more than one because we are both pretty good THfs. One goes to sky, the other sea, etc. If you have a 6 man going to farm stats in sky, at least send a TH4 **** that knows how to DD on IT mobs. If we only need one, he has nin, i have drg so we can flip flop based on if we need a tank or a DD more for that situation.

Honestly, this game is so friggin old, its VERY hard to feel 100% useful all the time if you only have 1 job. If your a sam only, you dont get to go to non-melee mobs. Thf still does due to hate tools and TH. My drg isnt always in its prime. Those instances i can go thf and vice versa. A blm doesnt do **** for zergs. Oh well. Thf has limitations but so does every other job.

Honestly, as much as some people hate this, i say the solution is to level another fun job that does something a bit different than thf. I realize many people dont do this by choice or time restraints or whatever, but that really is the solution in this multi-class game thats ancient when most people DO have multiple jobs. Otherwise, you must learn to cope with your jobs weakness or overcome it as best you can, but there will be times you just sit out. Sure, "all" jobs "should" be used for "all" events in a perfect world and im copping out by settling for the junk design on SE's part, but i suppose ive just gotten used to the idea that this is no longer a 1 job game. It is best enjoyed with flexibility and the great motto of FFXI. "$#@% is situational." So is your job class.
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#60 Nov 02 2009 at 7:43 AM Rating: Decent
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so i woke up this morning and started drinking my coffee, reading some stuff. then i came upon this:

Quote:
I believe that THF should be able to do good damage to endgame mobs being only decently geared and decently skilled.


and literally choked on my coffee. i realize i am late to this thread but seriously... my god. ive seen some stupid suggestions before but nothing quite as openly honest as:

"Dear SE, i want [my job] to be the best DD without having to put any effort into gear or skill, kthanx"
#61 Nov 02 2009 at 8:05 AM Rating: Decent
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By decently geared I mean the equivilent of what a decently geared war or sam can do. I don't want to out damage them. I just want to be useful. If you look at the AH and Nyzul gear availible to 2hand jobs vs 1hand dot jobs you will see what I mean by decently geared.
#62 Nov 02 2009 at 11:14 AM Rating: Decent
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TaruMalphius wrote:
If you look at the AH and Nyzul gear available to 2hand jobs vs 1hand dot jobs you will see what I mean by decently geared.
Then you should take another look. The only difference is Haubergeon / Hauberk. And you can gear wise even without that.

We got so many good piece that every one can use ... (and non mentioning the lowering price from old good piece).

Edit : True Strike ! There's also Assault Earring that thf can't wear it's true...

Edited, Nov 2nd 2009 6:15pm by Neraya
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#63 Nov 02 2009 at 11:49 AM Rating: Decent
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Readies SA
Readies TA
moves behind BLM at max WS distance
400 base x 5 mod gaurenteed hit WS
Success.

Would be awesome if you could stack SA/TA where it would get acc bonus and normal unmultiplied SA/TA bonus, plus would be amazing to random kill people. Mostly the latter.

Maybe a stance that had some sort of pure damaged, unmodified by stats/attack, but set rather low. Letting a thief always poke for their base damage or a third their dex etc. Something that was consistent so that you wouldn't use it on things you could already poke hard. If people are fond of crits, could add in a bonus as well.

Any sort of stance that increases damage seems iffy for weaker mobs. Anything with a big swap/negative will end up like footwork. In the end the job can't be a one handed sam, no matter how fond of it you are.
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#64 Nov 02 2009 at 1:54 PM Rating: Decent
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SirEaglestrike wrote:
Apparently the Admins don't like me, as my green arrows put people to default...

But yeah, /war.
I think this can happen if other people have rated down the post since your last page refresh, it's not the admins messing with your ratings. I would hope.

redvenomweb wrote:
I've actually said many times that I am glad that Squenix seems to have taken THF out of the DD rat race. I would greatly prefer that THF be further specialized in enmity management; there's no need to compete with SAMs and MNKs and WARs when they can't do what you do.

As stated, I'd like a double-enmity JA. But I'd also like to see Accomplice's recast greatly reduced (or just separated from Collaborator altogether); 5 times the recast for only double the enmity stolen is not a good tradeoff. It'd also be nice for THF to have a reverse-Collaborator JA (where you transfer some of your enmity to someone else), and Hide should work on many more mobs (Super Jump works on everything, and the game hasn't imploded). I don't see why Hide doesn't work on every mob that doesn't have true-sense detection.

Edited, Nov 1st 2009 10:15pm by redvenomweb
This is the best ideas in the thread, IMO. If Square buffed THF so much that it could really compete with 2-handers (talking average here, not uber-1337 THFs), then nobody would play anything but THF.
#65 Nov 02 2009 at 5:57 PM Rating: Good
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To help accomplice's recast, an alternative would be to have several JAs with a charged system. Collaborator 1 charge for 25%, accomplice 2 charges for 50%, and some new ability that could completely wipe someone off the hate list.

It could be coupled with an ability to also give someone your own accumulated hate with an opposite ability for 25/50/100. Or rather than creating more abilities, you could have some sort of effect that if TA is up while you use collab/acomp it could buff your TA to be able to transfer that hate. It seems silly that thieves can steal hate, but can't really get rid of it.

Coupling hate control with damage, make it so thieves could somehow transfer the hate to someone else in a charged attack, similar to an atonement proc to TA. Double enmity strike mentioned earlier could work, though thats creating new hate rather than transferring.

SE is very fond of charges on top of stances, seems like an easy way to improve an already useful ability. Damage boost coupled with better hate control would definitely make thief more useful end game.

Better to do 75% the damage of an equally geared DD while contributing hate control than to be some dagger/SAM **** child.
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#66 Nov 04 2009 at 9:25 AM Rating: Good
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Interestingly theres a thread like this on the feedback page as well. Another idea I had on the matter of "Thief needs an update"

What do you think about this?:


What I would really like to see is a global 30 second steal timer and then have various steal commands that share this timer.


*Steal Accuracy is greatly enhanced when used in conjunction with Sneak Attack.

*Steal Accuracy (and Potency where applicable) is increased by +steal gear (af, relic etc)


Spit balling some examples:

Gil Makers:

Steal Item

Steal Gil

Steal Treasure



Enmity:

Steal Enmity 25% (Collaborator).
Collaborator gives you an enmity Icon which you can use to transfer enmity via Trick Attack. *The extra 25% Enmity transfered with collaborator is not limited by the enmity cap.

Steal Enmity 50% (accomplice)
Accomplice does not transfer enmity via trick attack. This is for when the THF wants hate on him/herself (tanking/PD emergency etc).

Battle Applications

MUG (damage and Stun...guaranteed full duration stun with sneak attack)

Steal Buff (Aurasteal)

Steal Critical Hit Rate

Steal DEX

Steal ACC

Steal DEF

Steal Att

Steal HP

Steal TP


Etc etc etc.


I have heard the "DRK has absorb spells, you can't has them!!!" Argument one to many times. Lots of different jobs have different variations of sleep, dispel, curing, blah blah. This is not a good reason for thf not to get them.

The amount of cool, unbroken, balanced things that SE could do with this are almost limitless. Being that they share a timer you would have to focus your efforts for one particular area at a time.


I WANT TO BE ABLE TO STEAL THINGS!!!!!!!! SE MAKE US THIEVES AGAIN!!!!

I don't need to be a top tier DD. Just let me be a real thief and I'll be happy.

I think having collaborator transfer enmity is a really good way to make our enmity manipulation abilites better.

We often aren't used enough for this purpose in situations where it's needed because the enmity we transfer depends soley on damage...an area we don't excel at on harder mobs. Odds are we arent in the "Buffed to god status" DD party for efficiency sake. And a well geared "Heavy DD"/thf can do it better in situations where people actually plan to plant the hate on a tank this way.

SO I say take us out of the DD rat race. Our damage is very respectable, done correctly...I don't need or want to be the best. Just give us a way to manipulate enmity without needing to be physically stronger than we are to be effictive.


Edited, Nov 4th 2009 10:42am by ThiefKiller
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#67 Nov 04 2009 at 10:00 AM Rating: Decent
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I seriously doubt that SE will ever lower Steal recast, but it would be nice to be able to merit Steal accuracy and be able to pick between trying to steal a buff or an item if you have Aura Steal.
#68 Nov 05 2009 at 6:03 AM Rating: Decent
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Since collaborator (not accomplice tho), I lost that uncertainty feeling about THF I had. Bringing tier 2 merit to cap 5 and mandalic stab were icing on the cake, really.

We are THF, not a silly SAM or WAR. We are swift and toy around with the highest of the mobs (feint/collabo/TA will always land unresisted), while STILL doing some damages (SA, pizza, crazy gears). Not all jobs can do that, and I'm fine with the way it is.

I wouldn't spite on a critical damage bonus, of course ! But it's completelly uneeded I think :D
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#69 Nov 05 2009 at 2:05 PM Rating: Good
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jainaproud wrote:
We are THF


Just playing devils advocate here but...how are we a thief?

I love this job. But I have always been very dissapointed that Square Enix didn't do more with the abilities that would make us distinctly thief. And that they made the ones we do get have recast timers so high it's laughable.

Mug is one of the most useless job abilities in the game...and its 15 minutes??

Steal item on a 5 minte recast....are you kidding me? Thats ok though...there's nothing really worth while to steal anyway.

I'm with you on accomplorator...but really even those recast timers are too high. And they shouldn't be shared. Its great that you can save a mage with accomplice for one nuke....until they nuke again and get hate right back....or hate goes to the next highest mage on the hate list...while you still have 4:50 on your accomplice timer and can't to anything for them. Things happen too fast in this game for a 5 minute recast timer on accomplice to be really useful.

I think the things that Square has introduced to thf have been good ideas...that were screwed up in the implementation.

Edited, Nov 6th 2009 3:10pm by ThiefKiller

Edited, Nov 6th 2009 3:10pm by ThiefKiller
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