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#1 Oct 29 2009 at 3:03 PM Rating: Decent
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So it's no secrete that THF does pretty awful DMG to mobs with high Defense. SE has been pretty big on job stances as of late so this is my take on it. Give THF a stance that gives 100% Crit rate but reduces attack speed. This would at least let us be kept in parties after TH4 gets landed. Any thoughts? Anything better?

Edited, Nov 1st 2009 6:53pm by TaruMalphius
#2 Oct 29 2009 at 7:46 PM Rating: Good
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/war
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#3 Oct 29 2009 at 8:50 PM Rating: Good
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Apparently the Admins don't like me, as my green arrows put people to default...

But yeah, /war.
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#4 Oct 30 2009 at 1:05 AM Rating: Excellent
While the OP isn't all that articulate, I'd definitely not be opposed to thf getting a bone thrown to us in the DD department against higher end mobs.
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#5 Oct 30 2009 at 1:15 AM Rating: Good
Mandalic Stab has an attack modifier which makes it pretty damn good on mobs with high defense. On floor 100 Nyzul bosses as DRG/SAM with great gear and meat my Drakesbanes/Wheeling Thrusts vary between 600-900(no 2hr) where I've seen SATA Mandalic Stabs for 700-1200.
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#6 Oct 30 2009 at 2:03 AM Rating: Decent
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TaruMalphius wrote:
So it's no secrete that THF does pretty awful DMG to mobs with high Defense. SE has been pretty big on job stances as of late so this is my take on it. Give THF a stance that gives 100% Crit rate but reduces attack speed. This would at least let us be kept in parties after TH4 gets landed. Any thoughts? Anything better?


Dreaming much?

And while they are at it they can give NIN a stance that allows them to doge all melee attacks while reducing HP and BLM an ability that reduces casting timers to 0 in exchange for increasing MP cost.


Not. Gonna. Happen.


Something more reasonable might be a stance for 1H weapons. It would grant a x1.5 attack bonus to critical hits, increase critical hit rate and decrease weapon delay on 1H weapons but cut your evasion and defense by 20% each.

lvl 15 1h weapon delay -5% / Critical hit rate +5%

lvl 30 1h weapon delay -10% / Critical Hit rate +10%

lvl 50 1h weapon delay -15% / Critical hit rate +15%



Edited, Oct 30th 2009 4:11am by Lobivopis
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I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#7TaruMalphius, Posted: Oct 30 2009 at 11:11 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) By mobs with high defense I don't mean things like floor 100 NM's or exp mobs. We do good damage to those as is and I don't think anything extra is needed. What I mean is HNM's like Turtle, Faffy, and the like. /war doesn't cut it...at all.
#8 Oct 30 2009 at 5:17 PM Rating: Default
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It is a bad idea, and hence got shot down quickly, for a few reasons. I'll just give the obvious one, and let the math people show you the rest(if they feel like it).

First, your stance already exists in game. WARs can do it every two hours, it's called Mighty Strikes. The two examples that were given above of the NIN dodging all physical attacks, and the BLM casting with casting timers vastly reduced were using analogous scenarios. In short, NIN getting Perfect Dodge, and BLM getting Chain Spell. Both of which are ludicrous ideas, as the poster intended them to be seen. The power of the buff you're asking for is just too powerful.

Quote:
Monk got footwork. Does it suck? Well ya kinda but it was meant to address a specific issue.
And SE failed, horribly. Footwork is useful for exactly two instances. 1) Footwork + 300% TP + Dragon Kick for a big WS. And MNK doesn't often stand around building up to 300% TP before striking. 2) Using before a WS for increased TP gain, then removing right after. Even with the upgraded Mythic Weapon, footwork is still lol. A MNKs DoT is just too massive to give up for footwork.

Honestly, what you wrote sounds like it would be used for a big WS only. 100% Crit rate + higher TP return for the WS due to the increased delay. And last I checked, THF generally doesn't have any issues with their WS (assuming they're able to stack with SA or TA).

Edited, Oct 30th 2009 3:23pm by Cyth
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#9TaruMalphius, Posted: Oct 31 2009 at 2:48 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) How would attacking slower give increased TP? Also last I checked thief wasn't invited to endgame specifically because they do sh*tty damage on high lv mobs.
#10 Oct 31 2009 at 2:55 PM Rating: Decent
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Attacking slower will be give more TP per SWING. Hence why artificially increasing your delay for a WS, then cancelling the effect, would give you more TP back on the WS.

If you were to keep up the effect during TP phase, the TP gain would likely be similar in TP per unit time.
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#11 Oct 31 2009 at 3:00 PM Rating: Decent
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I guess I don't understand all the DD mechanics of the game. I was under the impression that only the weapon delay rating on your weapon effected tp. I better unstack all my haste gear.

I never said it had to be the way I stated 100% only that it needs to be SOMETHING that makes us more than TH whore in endgame.

Edited, Oct 31st 2009 4:06pm by TaruMalphius

Edited, Oct 31st 2009 4:07pm by TaruMalphius
#12 Oct 31 2009 at 3:08 PM Rating: Good
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Being a smartass might have worked, if not for the effect of Dual Wield and footwork on TP gain. Dual wield artifically lowers your delay, and lowers TP gain per hit. Footwork artifically raises your delay, and raises your TP gain per hit.

Slow and Haste will not effect your TP gain per hit, get slowed by a Spider if you want to confirm. However, job traits or job abilities that change your delay do change TP gain per hit, except Hasso. Hence why a MNK often pops Footwork before a WS such as Asuran Fists, then cancels it.

Edit:

Quote:
I never said it had to be the way I stated 100% only that it needs to be SOMETHING that makes us more than TH whore in endgame.
And that is why I said it was a bad idea, and that it got shot down. I never said THF doesn't need something, just that what you suggested was a bad idea.

Edited, Oct 31st 2009 1:13pm by Cyth
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#13TaruMalphius, Posted: Oct 31 2009 at 3:12 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) And where are you assuming this delay in attack speed needs to be the effect of dual wield + whatever? It could add slow for all I care.
#14 Oct 31 2009 at 3:16 PM Rating: Good
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Then you need to specifically mention that. Don't give an idea to improve a job that's half baked. Do a little bit of forethought, so you don't come off as "hay guyz, i wana do mity strikes lik teh WARs!" If you're going to make a suggestion for improving this, or any job, put a bit of thought into it.
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#15TaruMalphius, Posted: Oct 31 2009 at 3:17 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) I just tossed it out there. It's up to SE to decide the game mechanics of it. I don't really care how they implement it.
#16 Oct 31 2009 at 3:29 PM Rating: Default
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Quote:
I just tossed it out there. It's up to SE to decide the game mechanics of it. I don't really care how they implement it.
Wow, so you're a manager on the design team now, huh? I don't think SE has to decide the game mechanics for your suggestion.

Dear SE: Please give my THF Mighty Strikes and slow on a 5 minute timer. Thank you. And while your at it, could you give my MNK Invincible, my BLM Chainspell, and my SAM Hundred Fist? Of course add in slow.
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#17 Oct 31 2009 at 3:38 PM Rating: Decent
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No, i'm just not an @#%^ with a 4000 post count cause he likes to argue on alla and BG. SE takes suggestions off of the fan boards all the time. I'm not gonna worry about the details because SE knows how to code their game better than me (or you).

And of course, people like you keep using crappy analogies to compare to mine. THF is a DoT job with a low lv weapon. So cutting attack speed seems like the natural trade off. BTW i'm gonna link to how hasso and seigan work. I don't wanna ruin the surprise...but they both deal with delay.

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Hasso
http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Hasso



Edited, Oct 31st 2009 4:44pm by TaruMalphius
#18 Oct 31 2009 at 3:48 PM Rating: Good
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But Seigan doesn't have anything to do with delay, and Hasso's delay decrease works the same way Dancer's does, which is like Haste exclusively for melee swings.
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#19 Oct 31 2009 at 3:50 PM Rating: Good
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Well I don't want to ruin the surprise, but you didn't read my previous post very well.

Quote:
Slow and Haste will not effect your TP gain per hit, get slowed by a Spider if you want to confirm. However, job traits or job abilities that change your delay do change TP gain per hit, except Hasso. Hence why a MNK often pops Footwork before a WS such as Asuran Fists, then cancels it.


I'm aware that Hasso gives a Haste like effect to your weapon without changing TP gain. I'm also aware of what Hasso and Seigan do to your spell timers when SAM/NIN. It's sort of obvious.

So you make a suggestion of "Give me Mighty Strikes", and think SE would even take that seriously? Are you demented? In case you were unaware, there have been literally hundreds of "improve my job threads" on the THF forum alone. If you want to make yours stand out, then try having a good idea. Hence why it was shot down, the THFs on this board recognized it straight away.

THIS WAS A BAD IDEA.
THIS WAS A BAD IDEA.
THIS WAS A BAD IDEA.

And btw, I don't post to BG. And my 4000+ post count is due posting since 2004, as I've been playing this game since May of 2004.

Edit:

I didn't add this originally, since I thought it was obvious. But if you were to have a Job Ability that increased your Delay, and it DIDN'T increase you TP gain per Hit, well that would be just plain stupid. Not only would you lower your TP phase damage, but you would lower WS frequency. Hence why I was comparing the TP gain in an analogous fashion to Footwork and Dual Wield.

Edited, Oct 31st 2009 2:02pm by Cyth
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DRG:72 SMN:63 DRK:55 NIN:49 PLD:42 RDM:41 DNC:37 SCH:37 BLU:37 COR:20 PUP:22
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#20TaruMalphius, Posted: Oct 31 2009 at 3:56 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) I'm done arguing. If you wanna be constructive do it. If not gtfo.
#21 Oct 31 2009 at 3:59 PM Rating: Good
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That's the pot calling the kettle black.

Constructive on what? A bad idea? Why don't you gtfo, since it's obvious you want a change to THF, but you obviously can't be bothered with the trifling details like GAME BALANCE.
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#22TaruMalphius, Posted: Oct 31 2009 at 4:05 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Like I said, that is up to SE to do it with a balance and I asked for better ideas in my OP. I read 1 and it wasn't from you. Many people including myself, only play for fun and couldn't care less about learning game mechanics...Though I don't see how axe or GA = dagger. I have better things to do with my time than to worry about what piece of gear will give me a 1.2% increase on parse etc.
#23 Oct 31 2009 at 4:14 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
/war

Quote:
But yeah, /war.

Quote:
Mandalic Stab has an attack modifier which makes it pretty damn good on mobs with high defense.

Quote:
Something more reasonable might be a stance for 1H weapons. It would grant a x1.5 attack bonus to critical hits, increase critical hit rate and decrease weapon delay on 1H weapons but cut your evasion and defense by 20% each.

lvl 15 1h weapon delay -5% / Critical hit rate +5%

lvl 30 1h weapon delay -10% / Critical Hit rate +10%

lvl 50 1h weapon delay -15% / Critical hit rate +15%

That's funny, a LOT of people gave you ideas of how to improve your THF, BUT THEY MUST NOT HAVE POSTED BECAUSE YOU SAID SO!

Get over yourself, call in your White Knights to rate me down, because I ANSWERED YOUR CONCERN. Which in case you missed it, was...
Quote:
I don't really see why it's such a pipe dream and getting shot down so quick.
How dare I indeed.
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#24TaruMalphius, Posted: Oct 31 2009 at 4:17 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Ya now all I have to do is sub /war HNM and all our war,sam,drk,drg will be replaced with thief. You should spread the word brother.
#25 Oct 31 2009 at 8:29 PM Rating: Good
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Those jobs you mentioned do nothing EXCEPT do damage. Well, the DRK can stun, but whatever. No one likes them anyway. Expecting to do damage to the same degree as them on HNMs is kinda silly, unless you're buffed and geared like mad.
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#26 Oct 31 2009 at 8:49 PM Rating: Good
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Raenil wrote:
Those jobs you mentioned do nothing EXCEPT do damage. Well, the DRK can stun, but whatever. No one likes them anyway. Expecting to do damage to the same degree as them on HNMs is kinda silly, unless you're buffed and geared like mad.


All jobs should at least be useful in endgame. And by that I DON'T mean "poke the mob once and then go stand aside and watch other people play"

Yes there are other jobs in the same boat. They need to be fixed too.

Edited, Oct 31st 2009 10:56pm by Lobivopis
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I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#27 Oct 31 2009 at 8:58 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
How would attacking slower give increased TP? Also last I checked thief wasn't invited to endgame specifically because they do sh*tty damage on high lv mobs.


Really? I must have been doing it wrong all this time then because I attended all major HNMs as thief and always have.

I don't think thief needs any buffs for HNM beyond what we have. S-E gave us Mandalic Stab, marinara pizza +1, /war and some ridiculous gear to choose from if you take the time to aquire it. What more do you really want?

Reiterating the point that I've always done all major HNM's as thief I want to remind you that on mobs with 50,000++ HP a little more damage from us isn't going to be a really big deal. Wars and Darks and Sams and etc etc all have inherent limitations and on HNM it's still the mages that do the largest chunk of damage. In the aery you only put a few melee on a wyrm PERIOD lest you eat hurricane wing and moat carp sammiches all day, king behemoth is kited so lol KB melee, aspid just blocks all forms of melee damage and 2 handers hit just as weak as we do, Cerberus is a bastard with his para/stoneskin and Khimaira is geureilla warfared. Ixion has its own dedicated thread on the front page so I'll let that one there. In all of my above examples NO melee is going to be shining brilliantly; It's just the way HNM works. NO, Sam War Drk Rng and the likes will NOT be putting out OMGWTF numbers that won't be dwarfed by the mages in every way. The mechanics of the battles just go against what a melee is capable of. They are NOT tp burn mobs and never will be. I could add other HNM's like grand wyrms Tiamat and Vrtra and Jormy but this situation is very similar.

When you consider that we alone hold the coveted Treasure Hunter that all shells want, we alone hold the godly merit feint, we alone actually BENEFIT in damage from using trick attack, can open and close both light and darkness in combination with any other melee, are the only job with collaborator and accomplice... AND can land hits and chain with the best of them with Marinara +1 and /war you have a very attractive package. Gear intelligently, play smart and don't expect to be the star of the show. You will NEVER replace a mage on a HNM in damage, but you WILL create the skillchains for them to magic burst upon. And your weaponskills supply hate and do some respectable damage if you gear well.

Thief in HNM isn't broken, some people just expect too much. We can't do everything best, and this is the area we are weakest in. However weakEST does not equate to actually being WEAK. Those two concepts are not the same at all.

Edited, Oct 31st 2009 10:10pm by Melphina
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#28 Oct 31 2009 at 9:37 PM Rating: Decent
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I would have agreed with you before SE's ridiculous 2H buff but now THF is too far behind.

You can only hear words to the effect of "why aren't you upgrading Apocalypse? Mandau is a waste of gil because THF isn't a DD" so many times before it starts to wear on you.



Edited, Oct 31st 2009 11:40pm by Lobivopis
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I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#29TaruMalphius, Posted: Oct 31 2009 at 10:16 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Melphina, you are an very very well geared and merited thief. I have no doubt you do ok~ damage to HNM as /war...that being said...I believe that THF should be able to do good damage to endgame mobs being only decently geared and decently skilled.
#30 Oct 31 2009 at 11:33 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
I would have agreed with you before SE's ridiculous 2H buff but now THF is too far behind. You can only hear words to the effect of "why aren't you upgrading Apocalypse? Mandau is a waste of gil because THF isn't a DD" so many times before it starts to wear on you.


I don't view the 2 handed buff itself as a problem so much as the whole sam/xxx and xxx/sam issue. The 2 handed buff was originally blatantly overpowered, but it was toned down shortly after the initial update. Now it's in line with something I can handle. Basically a 2 hander gets 1 more accuracy than me for every 4 dex, and 1 more attack for every 4 strength. Even with 100 strength and 100 dexterity that's still only 25 attack/25 accuracy more (will a typical 2 hander have over 100 dexterity? The accuracy is the bigger factor compared to the attack). It's a large boost but not game breaking, and our counterpart was pizza. Once accuracy is covered we can gear much more readily for other stuff. No, it isn't the same and yes 2 handers can also eat pizza if they so choose, but the differences aren't THAT bad that it becomes insurmountable.

The thing I see as a bigger disparity between our potential and a 2 hander on HNM is the sam and /sam reality of todays game. Seigan and Hasso combined with store tp and meditate are what changes the balance in their favor so heavily. That's something that we can't take advantage of because we don't have a 2 handed weapon.

Quote:
Melphina, you are an very very well geared and merited thief. I have no doubt you do ok~ damage to HNM as /war...that being said...I believe that THF should be able to do good damage to endgame mobs being only decently geared and decently skilled.


First off I apologize if I'm reading too deeply into what you're saying. From what it sounds like you're saying you believe that as it stands thief is only capable of doing mediocre to average damage on HNM with the best gear we can get, and you believe that we should be able to do much better damage than that with only average gear. To do that would mean giving us a game breaking buff of some sort. That goes into the complexity of the fact that we have daggers of low base damage whereas a 2 hander has a much higher base damage. A 2 hander has better DoT because of this and that can't be helped. Daggers are not made for heavy damage in one hit, that's what sneak and trick attack is for, but it's on a 1 minute timer. Daggers hit fast for low damage per hit, and are best suited to a haste environment. It's true that my damage is weaker on HNM than a 2 hander, but it's good enough that it's not a huge liability given the other talents I bring to the table.

Quote:

Also Mel, i'm curious as to how many other thiefs go to the HNM's you do. In my experience it's only 1. The one with TH4. And just for the record, it doesn't have to be just kings and land HNM. It can be sky or sea or limbus. You name it. 1 THF per run. The one with the highest TH.


When I go to Sky, Sea, and Limbus people generally don't care too much. I've gone to limbus runs with 2 other thieves in the same zone once and sky with similar types of mentality. Any event that doesn't have a singular dedicated HNM type target is a pushover nowadays and even lesser HNM are laughable. If they're good you could easily have 2 thieves on sky/sea mobs without too much problem, and while I was talking about farming earlier I'm referring to the gods here. As for ground kings you usually see only one thief because of my aforementioned rule of "only 3 - 4 melee on the beast period". Kings see a majority of your group as tank/mage/support and the minority is the melee DD. In this situation yes you'll have a thief with Th4, but most people who have both mage and melee or tank will end up going as tank/mage as well. That's kings, the mobs were designed that way.
----------------------------------
Summarizing that:

The reason I said I think thief is pretty well off on HNM is because as it stands we do have a lot to bring to the table. Some people want their job to be able to do everything the best and it just doesn't work that way. Game Mechanics dictate that the dagger is a low damage/ low delay weapon. This is conradictory to being able to do great DoT on a HNM. 2 handers do better damage than us because of ALL of the above features combined

-- 2 handed buff for some extra accuracy/attack
--sam or /sam with siegan/hasso and the corresponding haste + strength/3rd eye and meditate plus store tp trait...
--Higher base damage weapons that swing slower get more tp in one hit and throw out larger chunks of damage in one swath to do so.

2 handers are oriented to HNM better than we, that's the biggest fallback of the dagger. It's the one weak point of our job, and taking that away would be hard to do without breaking something else pretty badly. The mobs have 30-50K hp and doing a little more DoT is insignificant compared to the whole HP bar.

Remember that Thief HAS been buffed heavily over the years. The biggest ones include

--- The dagger base damage increase
--- Job Trait: Assassin
--- Job Abilities: Accomplice and Collaborater
--- Marinara Pizza (+1) <---- while not specific to JUST us I'll be damned if it didn't change the way we're able to play in a huge way

We still have the old standard appeals too, they never left.

--- Treasure Hunter/farming capability + lol mug/steal
--- Flee (Convinience)
--- GOD like evasion
--- /nin and now /dnc subs for most stuff and /war for others
--- Hate control through trick attack and stacked weaponskills. Sneak attack too to grab hate really
--- the power of haste is very real for us
--- status bolts are still very cool to this day

We've been given a large assortment of gear to choose from, the better pieces including, Homam, enkidus, skadi's, hecatomb, and yes the old standards of dragon/o hat/rings/denali etc are still around. There's a LOT to choose from.

Thief is a very good job with a LOT of stuff it can do. The debate of HNM has been brought up a lot of times but trying to make a dagger compete in damage with a heavy 2 handed weapon is a game mechanic that won't happen. All that attempts to do is make every job equal, and of all the melee oriented jobs thief is the most unique of them all. Truthfully I don't want to be "just another DD" and I like it that way.

Edited, Nov 1st 2009 12:47am by Melphina
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#31 Nov 01 2009 at 12:21 AM Rating: Good
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Mistress Melphina wrote:
Thief in HNM isn't broken, some people just expect too much. We can't do everything best, and this is the area we are weakest in. However weakEST does not equate to actually being WEAK. Those two concepts are not the same at all.


I could not possibly agree with this more.

I don't know where this mentality came from that you have to have the best possible potential to be good. Thf gets access to most of the best DD gear in the game, and played well, can pump out some serious damage.

I'm always amazed that people seem to choose DD jobs in a fantasy world of "If you have perfectly geared this job and perfectly geared that job than thf has no chance." I have met maybe a handful of "perfectly" geared SAMs in my 5-6 years of playing this game. I have seen many many more who seemed to draw their gear choices randomly out of a hat and were completely clueless as to where to point their wind slicer.

There is a huge level range of skill and gear raning form totally gimp and completely clueless to "perfectly geared" and OCD gear swaper / master of quantum mathematics and damage calculations/ has a gear set for every situation playstyle person. All players and all jobs fall somewhere within these ranges and a competant thf can and will out damage all kinds of things across this spectrum.

Whoever says that a mandau thf isn't a dd is an idiot. Unless of course that thf is a bad thf to begin with.

Edited, Nov 1st 2009 2:23am by ThiefKiller
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#32 Nov 01 2009 at 3:34 AM Rating: Decent
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ThiefKiller wrote:


Whoever says that a mandau thf isn't a dd is an idiot. Unless of course that thf is a bad thf to begin with.

Edited, Nov 1st 2009 2:23am by ThiefKiller


Cute little dig there.

Edited, Nov 1st 2009 5:51am by Lobivopis
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I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#33 Nov 01 2009 at 3:44 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
--- status bolts are still very cool to this day


This should go under buffs. Smiley: tongue They day after they gave us access to crossbows and status bolts Mithrankittycat solo'd behemoth on my server. Smiley: lol
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#34 Nov 01 2009 at 3:49 AM Rating: Good
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The One and Only Deadgye wrote:
Quote:
--- status bolts are still very cool to this day


This should go under buffs. Smiley: tongue They day after they gave us access to crossbows and status bolts Mithrankittycat solo'd behemoth on my server. Smiley: lol


Actually, a good idea to make THF more usefull might be raising Marksmanship to B+ and adding higher tier status bolts (paralysis, plague, defense down etc.) that will stick to high level mobs.


The problem with the 2H buff was that it basically undid the dagger update from 2 years before by pushing THF back down to where they were previously compared to other DD's

Edited, Nov 1st 2009 5:56am by Lobivopis
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I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#35 Nov 01 2009 at 8:06 AM Rating: Excellent
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I disagree with what Lobi said entirely. First of all

Quote:
Actually, a good idea to make THF more usefull might be raising Marksmanship to B+ and adding higher tier status bolts (paralysis, plague, defense down etc.) that will stick to high level mobs.


Raising Marksmanship to B+? Our Marksmanship skill is C+ and at level 75 that caps at 230 natively. A B+ rating would cap at 256 skill unmerited, giving a difference of 26 skill. That's going to be less than 26 accuracy when you consider it's over 200 skill, so probably 24 ranged accuracy. Status bolts are merely there to be landed, not to do awesome damage themselves. It's the additional effect that does the magic. That's what ranged accuracy gear swaps are for, and R acc is a LOT easier to get than melee acc. An average/weak r. acc build can easily get 65-70 r. acc whereas a good one can go over 100. My own ranged accuracy set has + 110 ranged accuracy with my merits. Now when you add that we can merit feint to a 2 minute timer raising marksmanship to B+ is unnecessary.

As for a T2 level of enfeeble bolts (or simply more choices), that WOULD be a nice addition. If we received any buffs of whatever sort, adding more status bolts to our repertoire would be my favorite consideration. I like the thought of shooting paralyze or attack down bolts (even if they're relatively weak when considered to para/demon arrows) or heck... even some elementally charged bolts would be fun. That I would happily take.

Quote:

The problem with the 2H buff was that it basically undid the dagger update from 2 years before by pushing THF back down to where they were previously compared to other DD's


Wrong. In a tp burn environment thief can keep up with 2 handers in every way. Our weaponskills are modded strong, our DoT goes up phenominally and haste becomes ever more powerful. Throw in liberal use of sa or ta timers and we throw out numbers more or less equal to a 2 hander, it just depends on our gear/skill versus theirs.

In a GOD scenario we are still a huge step up from before. Our weapon's base damages went up by 5-9 across the board and that's immense. We used to hit for 0 a LOT more and we couldn't even GET tp reliably. Berserk wasn't enough to make up for that and pizza didn't exist. There is a huge difference between not weaponskilling at all and weaponskilling for lower damage less often. Also before the dagger update assassin also did not exist. Now take the mobs you can't stand behind on and add in the fact that we can't critical our weaponskills. We couldn't even use shark bite to any effect... and DE and EV were lol worthy. We have ALSO been blessed with Mandalic Stab which is similar to shark bite/Mercy Stroke and a really POWERFUL weaponskill on them. I've seen Mandalic Stabs go off on heavy armored HNMS for hundreds of damage higher than the average shark bite on the same thief.... and it skillchains well to boot!!

By the way, arguing that 2 handers been given way too much power (ridiculously overpowered 2 handed buff as you put it) and then saying that we are now proportionately equal to them in the way we were before their 2 handed update is counterproductive. If the gap between the abilities of a thief versus that of a 2 hander is still similar today as it was back then (and it IS), then we have been buffed in the same manner as they have. We started on a much weaker footing than 2 handers did so it makes no sense that we should be raised to equal performance to them in their current state. We have been given HUGE buffs on HNM too, and personally I think some of you want too much.

Dagger Damage increase -- Check
Assassin -- Check
Mandalic Stab -- Check
Marinara Pizza plus much stronger gear -- Check
Accomplice/Collaborator -- Check

What more do you want? Some of you may not have LIKED the accomplice/collaborater buff and that's why it was taken with such ill spirits. Oh noes, it didn't raise our damage. But I LIKE that change and it is one I have used to its full potential. Allowing us to more freely manipulate hate even when we can't deal huge weaponskill damage to do it directly helped redefine our job in a place it was mostly lost.

And for the record... our T2 merits are some of the strongest of any job. The fact that we actually ARGUE on what to choose should say a lot. On many jobs the choice is clear cut. Ranger Merits snap shot and flashy shot for example... that's it. Black Mage either unlocks all AM II or focuses on burst II and freeze II. Other jobs have similar expectations. We have aura steal, feint, and assassin's charge and while I won't endorse it, some people like ambush.

-----------------------------
Summarizing that: (again)

I think too many people are trying to make thief be something it isn't. We are not "just" a DD; we are so much more. Thief is hate manipulation, money/drop aquisition, evasion tanking/kiting/ solo artist supreme, massive DoT in haste (when geared and played correctly*)and acceptable DD on Gods, wielders of the status bolts, masters of the pull (pulling is still important in many events), and we do it all in a way that only we can. A unique package that only the thief is capable of delivering. When you look at all that and ask to make thief even more powerful in the area we are most lacking in it sounds like you want to turn thief into a job with no weaknesses and the greatest of strengths everywhere we go, and that just isn't how FFXI and it's diverse job system works.

Edited, Nov 1st 2009 9:27am by Melphina
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#36 Nov 01 2009 at 12:31 PM Rating: Good
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Cyth wrote:
Being a smartass might have worked, if not for the effect of Dual Wield and footwork on TP gain. Dual wield artifically lowers your delay, and lowers TP gain per hit. Footwork artifically raises your delay, and raises your TP gain per hit.

Slow and Haste will not effect your TP gain per hit, get slowed by a Spider if you want to confirm. However, job traits or job abilities that change your delay do change TP gain per hit, except Hasso.

You're a RNG, which makes the omission of Velocity Shot rather surprising. Velocity Shot neither decreases ranged TP/hit nor increases melee TP/hit.

As for the OP's suggestion: 100% crit rate is overpowered, as it would have the same effect that Mighty Strikes does on WS. It would have been nice if THF had gotten an ability similar to Innin (or if Yonin/Innin were subbable and applied only to 1H weapons), but that horse seems to be out of the barn.

I'm still holding out hope for an ability that lets our next attack generate double enmity. I'd be happy with that.
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#37 Nov 01 2009 at 2:14 PM Rating: Good
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Answer: make footwork a subbable ability.

Right?

As people mentioned thief can do pretty decent damage, but it is not a pure DD
1~2 min you have a 100-200+ base damage attack
feint - zergings BFF
accomplice/collaborator - over zealous blms' best friend
TH3-4

In order to buff it to be more useful in end game, but not be broken else where would be very, very hard.

I just want them to change SA and TA so that at 75 if you're not behind the mob/ally it will still add the base damage bonus just not forced crit. Would make partying much easier
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#38 Nov 01 2009 at 4:19 PM Rating: Good
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i've thought for awhile now that a good way to give a boost to thief without being too overpowered, be a unique bonus, and deal with the problem of SATA not scaling well as you level up would be to give a series of traits that increase the damage of critical hits. it would be a boon at all stages of thief play and still remain inline with the thief MO.
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Number of times I have reached 75 because of death: 100
Total Merits: 432 Levels until Maat Cap: 37
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#39TaruMalphius, Posted: Nov 01 2009 at 4:20 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) The issue with that, is that no one thing in there will make us more desireable over a heavy DD job in almost any event. I do not debate that thief is a powerful job when looking at how well rounded it is. I have also read your replies to other buff thf posts and I already know where you stand. Bard is the master of pull and if bard can't pull it...the ranger can shadow bind it. If you need evasion tanking you will take a ninja. Mage for status. You get my point. Nobody says "ok come thief because you are well rounded". It's amusing when I see a THF profile online and it consists of 2 pieces of gear. TH knife and relic hands. I laugh out loud almost every time.
#40 Nov 01 2009 at 4:35 PM Rating: Good
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Buront wrote:
i've thought for awhile now that a good way to give a boost to thief without being too overpowered, be a unique bonus, and deal with the problem of SATA not scaling well as you level up would be to give a series of traits that increase the damage of critical hits. it would be a boon at all stages of thief play and still remain inline with the thief MO.


That's pretty much what I suggested (along with an increase in critical hit rate and a decrease in weapon delay). An attack bonus on critical hits would have less of an effect on merit mobs than it would on HNM. And it could be subbed so that other 1h jobs would be aided by it as well.

TaruMalphius wrote:
Quote:
and we do it all in a way that only we can. A unique package that only the thief is capable of delivering. When you look at all that and ask to make thief even more powerful in the area we are most lacking in it sounds like you want to turn thief into a job with no weaknesses and the greatest of strengths everywhere we go, and that just isn't how FFXI and it's diverse job system works.


The issue with that, is that no one thing in there will make us more desireable over a heavy DD job in almost any event. I do not debate that thief is a powerful job when looking at how well rounded it is. I have also read your replies to other buff thf posts and I already know where you stand. Bard is the master of pull and if bard can't pull it...the ranger can shadow bind it. If you need evasion tanking you will take a ninja. Mage for status. You get my point. Nobody says "ok come thief because you are well rounded". It's amusing when I see a THF profile online and it consists of 2 pieces of gear. TH knife and relic hands. I laugh out loud almost every time.

To make thief more powerful I proposed a stance...not a straight buff. Perhaps it was overkill...perhaps not. On things you would solo and low-man and exp on...the stance would HURT you. If not it would only slighty improve your performance and give you steady consistent damage output. It doesn't even have to be my idea. It could be a useful 2hr. It could be footwork (which is basically what I see forced crit as) It could be to make SA and TA not matter where you are. I really don't care.


Melphina will always argue against making any updates to THF. She was probably arguing against updates before the dagger buff. Maybe she just likes being the underdog or somthing.

I for one am sick of being the TH4 butt monkey. I don't want to out damage 2H DD's, I just want back what I had after the dagger update before the 2H update nullified the gain.

Edited, Nov 1st 2009 6:50pm by Lobivopis
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Final Fantasy XI 12-14-11 Update wrote:
Adjust the resolution of menus.
The main screen resolution for "FINAL FANTASY XI" is dependent on the "Overlay Graphics Resolution" setting.
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I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#41 Nov 01 2009 at 4:35 PM Rating: Good
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thief (like most hybrid jobs) doesn't excell in standard endgame events. thief truely excells when you do lowman events, where all the different things a thief can bring to the table can be fully utilizied.

edit: i agree lobi. although what i would really like to see would be a major boosting of all jobs when used as a SJ in an effort to get away from /sam /nin /war as the only viable melee SJs.

Edited, Nov 1st 2009 5:44pm by Buront
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Lv75 Elvaan Thief, Dragoon, Warrior, Black Mage, Ninja, Bard
Number of times I have reached 75 because of death: 100
Total Merits: 432 Levels until Maat Cap: 37
Why fight like a man when I can fight like a chick with a bear?
#42 Nov 01 2009 at 4:54 PM Rating: Good
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1,060 posts
Lobivopis wrote:
Actually, a good idea to make THF more usefull might be raising Marksmanship to B+ and adding higher tier status bolts (paralysis, plague, defense down etc.) that will stick to high level mobs.


Being that I'm currently tinkering with a better thf/rng gun setup, I for one, would welcome this with open arms. Not for landing bolts, but for the big guns (coffinmaker, culverin etc).

If I were SE, I would also give THF native access to ranged weaponskills, and let SATA stack with ranged weaponskills. Even if it had to be toned down a bit to not make the WS itself tooooo overpowered. (never gonna happen, but THAT would be some hotness). I think if it was more Practical/Viable for us to use some of the more damaging guns we get access to, we would. We already get access to some really really great slug shot gear. It makes sense that a thug would use a gun right? right!!??? lol

But also in the way of landing status bolts, it would open the door to stack more int/(???STAT) to enhance the proc rate(??potency) of the staus bolts themselves. And if SE didn't want to spend the time adding tier two status bolts, they could even add job trait that somehow enhances status bolts that is native to thf.
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#43 Nov 01 2009 at 5:28 PM Rating: Excellent
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I do like the ideas thrown out on bolts/guns, and I like RVW's idea on an attack that can generate double enmity. I'm not against buffing thief more than it is now, I just don't think it needs to be something huge. A lot of the ideas that get thrown out most of the time either wouldn't work in practicality or are too strong that they're overpowered. There have been some good ideas given by several people that do appeal to me. My favorites in this thread are the attack that generates double enmity, new bolts or a viability to use heavier marksmanship potential via slugshot, and the trait that causes critical hits to do extra damage. I'm especially fond of the last which Buront threw out on increasing critical damage. That's something I'd really like. A passive trait that raises critical damage would act like a permanent x's knife and it could even scale according to level.

IE:
Critical mastery 1
Critical Mastery II
Critical Mastery III

Since in melee criticals are capped at 24% and in a non HNM scenario a critical is not as significant as it is in HNM that's my favorite idea for enhancing our damage that's been thrown out so far.

The thief derives its damage in more than a few ways, but one of the more fun ones is criticals. Since the first hit of stacked weaponskills is a critical the proposed change would enhance our weaponskill potential on HNMs, and I've already set myself to a hybrid attack/dex/pizza oriented setup on HNM so that's a logical thought too. A lot of the focus on thief revolves around our ability to critical from the emphasis on dex to gear like x's knife plus the skadi's set and the weaponskill evisceration, and of course trick and sneak attack themselves. Continuing down that line is a thought I welcome openly and I'd like to see that DD aspect of our game enhanced if nothing else.

Edited, Nov 1st 2009 6:35pm by Melphina
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#44 Nov 01 2009 at 5:42 PM Rating: Good
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Heh, just had to quote:

TaruMalphius wrote:
Give THF a stance


It's too epic to ignore XD
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#45 Nov 01 2009 at 6:07 PM Rating: Good
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Putting Marksmanship at B+, giving THF Native Ranged WS, and allowing SA and TA to stack with Ranged WS would allow a THF to do more damage with a Ranged weapon than a RNG. SE would "likely" not allow that. RNG/THF would get the guarunteed lolranged Crit and THF would get not only the guarnteed Crit, but can use SA Slug Shot immediately followed by a wing and TA Slug Shot, in which both WS not only get the crit bonus, but the DEX and AGI multipliers. Both jobs could have Barrage, with RNGs give 2-3 more shots. I'm not sure what sub a THF would choose in such a zerg anyhow.

B or maybe even B+ markmanship I could see (although some CORs may get their feathers a litle ruffled), but native Ranged WS and SA/TA working on Ranged is a bit much, and encroaching too far into RNG territory. You want to do the Ranged Damage of a RNG, great. Then give them your EVA.

I think the idea of increased Crit rate as you level is a great idea, and definately in line with the THF job. Plus, there's less chance of SE worrying about upsetting game balance. I mean, we all know SE cares about RNG...
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#46 Nov 01 2009 at 8:05 PM Rating: Good
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Cyth wrote:
Putting Marksmanship at B+, giving THF Native Ranged WS, and allowing SA and TA to stack with Ranged WS would allow a THF to do more damage with a Ranged weapon than a RNG. SE would "likely" not allow that. RNG/THF would get the guarunteed lolranged Crit and THF would get not only the guarnteed Crit, but can use SA Slug Shot immediately followed by a wing and TA Slug Shot, in which both WS not only get the crit bonus, but the DEX and AGI multipliers. Both jobs could have Barrage, with RNGs give 2-3 more shots. I'm not sure what sub a THF would choose in such a zerg anyhow.


What you described is not altogether outside of the realm of what is already possible for Thf/rng (aside from the slug shot stacking with SATA of course lol). We usually get an OMGWTFBBQ stacked ASS Charge dagger WS on a tank or some poor sap ===> Feint==> TP wing==> Slug ==> Barrage ====> Slug == Solo TA (as often as timers allow) ==> Solo SA (as often as timers allow)==> Melee ==> Slug (if the monster is still alive this long).

Given that...the damage boosts from a fully geared solo SA, and solo TA are about what would be added to the damage for a stacked dagger ws.

Lets say I was SE, I wouldn't have SA and TA effect ranged WS in the same way. Maybe just a guaranteed crit without the massive DEX and AGL boosts. I would also make them stand within a certain (melee) range for SATA to stack with a ranged ws. Clearly it would have to be balanced if soemthing like this ever entered the game...but I think it would be really cool to have some decent endgame damage weapons to choose from (guns).

I really dont think that it would step on RNG toes too much either. THF doesnt have barrage, sharp shot ÒR a damaing 2 hour for that matter. It would be unrealistic for us to shoot for TP with a zerg weapon like Culverin. With our 230 base marksmanship (246 with merits), they'd still be ahead with Ratt, Racc, job traits, better gear...and a MUCH better selection of ranged weapons and ammo to choose from.

Edited, Nov 1st 2009 9:14pm by ThiefKiller
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#47 Nov 01 2009 at 10:43 PM Rating: Excellent
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I really dont understand why we need to be on the same level as a Sam on HNM in the 1st place. I really dont. Im not "against" thf getting buffed in the DD department at all, but really.

Why is a sam in an alli for melee-able HNM? To beat the hell outta things. Some say "to make more SC!" but the SC itself is not very important at all these days. The total damage of teh DD that doesnt need to rest is the main appeal of having a melee in the 1st place. War fills that role. Sam does. A few others do also.

So if a Thf can output similar damage on HNM as a sam or war, have TH, have feint, collaborator, hate planting, status bolts where applicable etc, then WHY would you ever bring a sam? Why buff thf to the same level as other jobs who have DD as they exclusive role on HNMs? I just dont get it.

Most DDs are there to do just that. DD. They do it in slightly different ways that give them a minor edge or setback on various mobs etc to keep things interesting. Drk kicks ass at zergs over anyone. They are "good" on other mobs, but just dont shine in the same way. But in those situations, they have stun, absorb TP etc that gives them more utility when their DD doesnt overshadow others. Sam is the best melee when you cant melee. WS onry mobs sam is awesome as they can get TP easy, and SC anything as there are likely lots of Blms in that situation. Otherwise just a safe DD. Decent zerg, decent for "normal" fights. Just solid everywhere, but doesnt really have much to offer besides DD at all. Drg is awesome for any extended fight. They can DD with the best and NEVER have hate problems. Cant tell you how many JoLs Drgs win the parse on because they just dont die. Sams, Drks, wars, everyone always pulls hates and gets killed and the drg keeps trucking. The wyvern damage really adds up on the toughest HNMs and drgs have insane acc. On fights that they suck at, they can still offer the potent angon.

Point is, all DDs shine at different points. For all other situations, they have some other support aspect (stun, angon, feint, collab, TA, TH, hate sheding, differing damage types, whatever). Thf has the MOST support available to add to a fight of any DD. You always need TH. Zergs need feint. Feint kicks ass in non-zergs. Collaborator can be amazing. The ability to occasionally dispell something mages cant. Steady hate plants. Status Bolts. The ability to get TP/Damage through /ra. Incredible kiting abilities. All types of things we can do so that in virtually any situation, we can be useful. I dont WANT to overshadow sams in damage.

Just think like a Brd. Sure we dont top the parse, but how much damage did we add to the fight by sticking feint on byakko? how much more damage did that Rng do because we collaborated them so they didnt eat dirt? How many more drops do you provide to your group over time just for being there? (to many, the entire reason to fight X mob in the 1st place). How much faster did that low man salvage run go because you pulled with acid bolts? How many times have you made a lowman salvage run possible by being an awesome kiter? How much hate did you give to that tank? How much healing did you save by dispelling those spikes on cerb? How much healing did you save by shooting the occasional bloody bolt?

I realize everyone wants to be the star like a Kclub drk on a zerg, but we are still a support DD. On tough things, we dont top the parse. We make things go smoothly. We increase efficiency. We make that Kclub HIT by feinting. We keep that DD/Mage alive by stealing hate and planting hate. We save lives. We do things other people cant. Its not always glamorous, but we are backstage making sure everything goes the way it should.

Would I take a bonus to DD such as increased crit damage or something? Sure, but i really dont see any reason to bring thf DD on HNMs up to the level of exclusive DDs. We do moderate damage and a lot of other beneficial things. People dont appreciate those collaborators and constant TAs that prevent deaths. They may not realize just what a great asset a good thf is in a salvage group. They may not know just how potent feint is, and they sure as hell dont appreciate TH. Its more often the thfs "fault" for sh*tty drops -_-. Were unappreciated, yes. But we ARE effective. We dont need to outparse a Sam on HNM to be useful.
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I keep seeing the general mindset of "SE needs to buff Thf DD so that a group has a REASON to invite us to an alli."

That is player perception. Thf is an asset on almost any fight if geared and played well using the full range of thfs abilities. Its just behind the scenes so people dont appreciate it. The reality is that we assist in a variety of ways that dont go under our name on the parse while still adding moderate DD if geared well. We do a hell of a lot more for an alli than a sam does. If you have a generic group of mixed jobs and your fighting almost anything, you have a few DDs, a fwe healers, nukers, support and tanks. If you are looking to fill that 18th slot, as much as sams dont want to hear it, most times a solid thf would be more beneficial than just another sam even ignoring TH. We make up the difference in direct DD power with feint alone. If you can stick an acid on it, you have added incredible damage. You will keep at least 1 person alive through good collaborator use on hi hate players. The hate dumped on tanks throughout a fight will keep someone else alive. Dispelling that annoying buff instantly will save lots of MP etc, etc, etc.

Screw the parse. Screw big number syndrome. Screw avg joes retarded "perception" that a thf isnt useful. We are useful. We help others do their jobs better and do moderate damage. What most people want through a damage buff on HNMs is to dispel the idea that Thf sucks on HNM because we have toothpicks. SE cant change perception. If they did it through a DD buff of the magnitude needed to get joe smo to like Thfs, we would be OP. Anything less and avg joe smo still wouldnt want a thf.

SE cant fix player perception without flipping the bandwagon hierarchy which is still more hype than substance anyway. Sams really arent as friggin broken as people want to think.
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Edit:
If your group doesnt think a Thf is useful besides to stick in the last 5%, then either: You really suck as a thf, or (often the case) your group/leaders dont know/appreciate what you DO bring to the table from ignorance or stupidity. A thf with 2 min feint will add more total damage to ANY melee-able HNM than 1 more sam will. Period. And thats just the start for Thf.

Edited, Nov 2nd 2009 12:55am by Banalaty
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Maat-1/1 Thf Meleed (pansies steal)
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Join 'People Against The Heart Snatcher' and help put Thfs on the right P.A.T.H.S. today!
#48 Nov 01 2009 at 11:59 PM Rating: Good
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1,060 posts
Banalaty wrote:
I really dont understand why we need to be on the same level as a Sam on HNM in the 1st place. I really dont. Im not "against" thf getting buffed in the DD department at all, but really.

Why is a sam in an alli for melee-able HNM? To beat the hell outta things. Some say "to make more SC!" but the SC itself is not very important at all these days. The total damage of teh DD that doesnt need to rest is the main appeal of having a melee in the 1st place. War fills that role. Sam does. A few others do also.

So if a Thf can output similar damage on HNM as a sam or war, have TH, have feint, collaborator, hate planting, status bolts where applicable etc, then WHY would you ever bring a sam? Why buff thf to the same level as other jobs who have DD as they exclusive role on HNMs? I just dont get it.

Most DDs are there to do just that. DD. They do it in slightly different ways that give them a minor edge or setback on various mobs etc to keep things interesting. Drk kicks ass at zergs over anyone. They are "good" on other mobs, but just dont shine in the same way. But in those situations, they have stun, absorb TP etc that gives them more utility when their DD doesnt overshadow others. Sam is the best melee when you cant melee. WS onry mobs sam is awesome as they can get TP easy, and SC anything as there are likely lots of Blms in that situation. Otherwise just a safe DD. Decent zerg, decent for "normal" fights. Just solid everywhere, but doesnt really have much to offer besides DD at all. Drg is awesome for any extended fight. They can DD with the best and NEVER have hate problems. Cant tell you how many JoLs Drgs win the parse on because they just dont die. Sams, Drks, wars, everyone always pulls hates and gets killed and the drg keeps trucking. The wyvern damage really adds up on the toughest HNMs and drgs have insane acc. On fights that they suck at, they can still offer the potent angon.

Point is, all DDs shine at different points. For all other situations, they have some other support aspect (stun, angon, feint, collab, TA, TH, hate sheding, differing damage types, whatever). Thf has the MOST support available to add to a fight of any DD. You always need TH. Zergs need feint. Feint kicks ass in non-zergs. Collaborator can be amazing. The ability to occasionally dispell something mages cant. Steady hate plants. Status Bolts. The ability to get TP/Damage through /ra. Incredible kiting abilities. All types of things we can do so that in virtually any situation, we can be useful. I dont WANT to overshadow sams in damage.

Just think like a Brd. Sure we dont top the parse, but how much damage did we add to the fight by sticking feint on byakko? how much more damage did that Rng do because we collaborated them so they didnt eat dirt? How many more drops do you provide to your group over time just for being there? (to many, the entire reason to fight X mob in the 1st place). How much faster did that low man salvage run go because you pulled with acid bolts? How many times have you made a lowman salvage run possible by being an awesome kiter? How much hate did you give to that tank? How much healing did you save by dispelling those spikes on cerb? How much healing did you save by shooting the occasional bloody bolt?

I realize everyone wants to be the star like a Kclub drk on a zerg, but we are still a support DD. On tough things, we dont top the parse. We make things go smoothly. We increase efficiency. We make that Kclub HIT by feinting. We keep that DD/Mage alive by stealing hate and planting hate. We save lives. We do things other people cant. Its not always glamorous, but we are backstage making sure everything goes the way it should.

Would I take a bonus to DD such as increased crit damage or something? Sure, but i really dont see any reason to bring thf DD on HNMs up to the level of exclusive DDs. We do moderate damage and a lot of other beneficial things. People dont appreciate those collaborators and constant TAs that prevent deaths. They may not realize just what a great asset a good thf is in a salvage group. They may not know just how potent feint is, and they sure as hell dont appreciate TH. Its more often the thfs "fault" for sh*tty drops -_-. Were unappreciated, yes. But we ARE effective. We dont need to outparse a Sam on HNM to be useful.
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I keep seeing the general mindset of "SE needs to buff Thf DD so that a group has a REASON to invite us to an alli." That is player perception. Thf is an asset on almost any fight if geared and played well using the full range of thfs abilities. Its just behind the scenes so people dont appreciate it. The reality is that we assist in a variety of ways that dont go under our name on the parse while still adding moderate DD if geared well. We do a hell of a lot more for an alli than a sam does. If you have a generic group of mixed jobs and your fighting almost anything, you have a few DDs, a fwe healers, nukers, support and tanks. If you are looking to fill that 18th slot, as much as sams dont want to hear it, most times a solid thf would be more beneficial than just another sam even ignoring TH. We make up the difference in direct DD power with feint alone. If you can stick an acid on it, you have added incredible damage. You will keep at least 1 person alive through good collaborator use on hi hate players. The hate dumped on tanks throughout a fight will keep someone else alive. Dispelling that annoying buff instantly will save lots of MP etc, etc, etc.

Screw the parse. Screw big number syndrome. Screw avg joes retarded "perception" that a thf isnt useful. We are useful. We help others do their jobs better and do moderate damage. What most people want through a damage buff on HNMs is to dispel the idea that Thf sucks on HNM because we have toothpicks. SE cant change perception. If they did it through a DD buff of the magnitude needed to get joe smo to like Thfs, we would be OP. Anything less and avg joe smo still wouldnt want a thf.

SE cant fix player perception without flipping the bandwagon hierarchy which is still more hype than substance anyway. Sams really arent as friggin broken as people want to think.


Love your posts. Big fan of your work. I agree with what you said like eleventy billion percent.

Heres the thing (for me at least). THF brings a lot of tools to the table and are useful in every fight. Yes. But almost all of those things can be taken care of by ONE good thf. And a solid heavy DD subbed thf can do our hate planting job BETTER than us when needed because trick attack is dependant on damage. SO if your LS is like most and already has that ONE thf that they let come to stuff....level another job or you are SoL.

I myself solved this problem by starting an LS with some friends...to work in strategies with what jobs we have and to include people we like to play with. I actually think this is the bigger problem. Most people want to be spoon fed what to do: what is acceptable ànd what isnt. Not enough players work outside the box that is layed out for them on the ffxiclopedia.

But by and large for most of the thf population, facing the playerbase perception (which not entrirely based in fiction), I would like to see our DD (or actual hate manipulation ability) see a buff.

Edited, Nov 2nd 2009 1:05am by ThiefKiller

Edited, Nov 2nd 2009 1:11am by ThiefKiller
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Nebo
THF99/BRD99
#49 Nov 02 2009 at 12:08 AM Rating: Excellent
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7,094 posts
I've actually said many times that I am glad that Squenix seems to have taken THF out of the DD rat race. I would greatly prefer that THF be further specialized in enmity management; there's no need to compete with SAMs and MNKs and WARs when they can't do what you do.

As stated, I'd like a double-enmity JA. But I'd also like to see Accomplice's recast greatly reduced (or just separated from Collaborator altogether); 5 times the recast for only double the enmity stolen is not a good tradeoff. It'd also be nice for THF to have a reverse-Collaborator JA (where you transfer some of your enmity to someone else), and Hide should work on many more mobs (Super Jump works on everything, and the game hasn't imploded). I don't see why Hide doesn't work on every mob that doesn't have true-sense detection.

Edited, Nov 1st 2009 10:15pm by redvenomweb
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Terraxia - RNG/COR/THF - Midgardsormr/Quetzalcoatl (boxed)
Viper Beam - ARC/CRP - Fabul
#50 Nov 02 2009 at 12:39 AM Rating: Good
Scholar
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2,881 posts
the difference between hide and super jump is that super jump doesn't remove you from the hate list (ie if you disengage after you enter the hate queue and super jump, the mob is still going to come looking for you). but i do agree with you; i would like to see hide get a buff, even if it was at the cost of teir3 merits when/if they ever happen.

i too like the way SE has been moving thieves in direction of enmity management. but the point was made that even in an alliance setting, 2 thieves is a bit of a strech, which can make it difficult for people to secure a place in thier LS as the main thief, especially if they dont have TH4 already, which is why DD needs to be more than just supplemtary in nature.

its not a readily solvable problem because, as banalaty pointed out, there are jobs that offer little aside from DD, so it would not be fair to have thieves on par with them. the best thing thief has going for it in this regaurd is pierce damage, but even then is easily outshadowed by rangers and dragoons.
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Lv75 Elvaan Thief, Dragoon, Warrior, Black Mage, Ninja, Bard
Number of times I have reached 75 because of death: 100
Total Merits: 432 Levels until Maat Cap: 37
Why fight like a man when I can fight like a chick with a bear?
#51 Nov 02 2009 at 1:25 AM Rating: Good
Thief's Knife
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15,049 posts
Mistress Melphina wrote:
I'm especially fond of the last which Buront threw out on increasing critical damage.


I've been saying that exact thing for ages now, in fact I said it in this thread before he did.

Here's the thing. Every time SE does something to stop NIN, MNK and WAR/NIN pillaging game mechanics THF gets caught in the crossfire and takes a bigger hit than the jobs that were the target of the nerf. I'm not talking about boosting THF, I'm talking about returning what was taken from us by giving us something specific to THF that would undo all those years of collateral damage.



Edited, Nov 2nd 2009 3:32am by Lobivopis
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Final Fantasy XI 12-14-11 Update wrote:
Adjust the resolution of menus.
The main screen resolution for "FINAL FANTASY XI" is dependent on the "Overlay Graphics Resolution" setting.
If the Overlay Graphics Resolution is set higher than the Menu Resolution, menus will be automatically resized.


I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
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