I would have agreed with you before SE's ridiculous 2H buff but now THF is too far behind. You can only hear words to the effect of "why aren't you upgrading Apocalypse? Mandau is a waste of gil because THF isn't a DD" so many times before it starts to wear on you.
I don't view the 2 handed buff itself as a problem so much as the whole sam/xxx and xxx/sam issue. The 2 handed buff was originally blatantly overpowered, but it was toned down shortly after the initial update. Now it's in line with something I can handle. Basically a 2 hander gets 1 more accuracy than me for every 4 dex, and 1 more attack for every 4 strength. Even with 100 strength and 100 dexterity that's still only 25 attack/25 accuracy more (will a typical 2 hander have over 100 dexterity? The accuracy is the bigger factor compared to the attack). It's a large boost but not game breaking, and our counterpart was pizza. Once accuracy is covered we can gear much more readily for other stuff. No, it isn't the same and yes 2 handers can also eat pizza if they so choose, but the differences aren't THAT bad that it becomes insurmountable.
The thing I see as a bigger disparity between our potential and a 2 hander on HNM is the sam and /sam reality of todays game. Seigan and Hasso combined with store tp and meditate are what changes the balance in their favor so heavily. That's something that we can't take advantage of because we don't have a 2 handed weapon.
Melphina, you are an very very well geared and merited thief. I have no doubt you do ok~ damage to HNM as /war...that being said...I believe that THF should be able to do good damage to endgame mobs being only decently geared and decently skilled.
First off I apologize if I'm reading too deeply into what you're saying. From what it sounds like you're saying you believe that as it stands thief is only capable of doing mediocre to average damage on HNM with the best gear we can get, and you believe that we should be able to do much better damage than that with only average gear. To do that would mean giving us a game breaking buff of some sort. That goes into the complexity of the fact that we have daggers of low base damage whereas a 2 hander has a much higher base damage. A 2 hander has better DoT because of this and that can't be helped. Daggers are not made for heavy damage in one hit, that's what sneak and trick attack is for, but it's on a 1 minute timer. Daggers hit fast for low damage per hit, and are best suited to a haste environment. It's true that my damage is weaker on HNM than a 2 hander, but it's good enough that it's not a huge liability given the other talents I bring to the table.
Also Mel, i'm curious as to how many other thiefs go to the HNM's you do. In my experience it's only 1. The one with TH4. And just for the record, it doesn't have to be just kings and land HNM. It can be sky or sea or limbus. You name it. 1 THF per run. The one with the highest TH.
When I go to Sky, Sea, and Limbus people generally don't care too much. I've gone to limbus runs with 2 other thieves in the same zone once and sky with similar types of mentality. Any event that doesn't have a singular dedicated HNM type target is a pushover nowadays and even lesser HNM are laughable. If they're good you could easily have 2 thieves on sky/sea mobs without too much problem, and while I was talking about farming earlier I'm referring to the gods here. As for ground kings you usually see only one thief because of my aforementioned rule of "only 3 - 4 melee on the beast period". Kings see a majority of your group as tank/mage/support and the minority is the melee DD. In this situation yes you'll have a thief with Th4, but most people who have both mage and melee or tank will end up going as tank/mage as well. That's kings, the mobs were designed that way.
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The reason I said I think thief is pretty well off on HNM is because as it stands we do have a lot to bring to the table. Some people want their job to be able to do everything the best and it just doesn't work that way. Game Mechanics dictate that the dagger is a low damage/ low delay weapon. This is conradictory to being able to do great DoT on a HNM. 2 handers do better damage than us because of ALL of the above features combined
-- 2 handed buff for some extra accuracy/attack
--sam or /sam with siegan/hasso and the corresponding haste + strength/3rd eye and meditate plus store tp trait...
--Higher base damage weapons that swing slower get more tp in one hit and throw out larger chunks of damage in one swath to do so.
2 handers are oriented to HNM better than we, that's the biggest fallback of the dagger. It's the one weak point of our job, and taking that away would be hard to do without breaking something else pretty badly. The mobs have 30-50K hp and doing a little more DoT is insignificant compared to the whole HP bar.
Remember that Thief HAS been buffed heavily over the years. The biggest ones include
--- The dagger base damage increase
--- Job Trait: Assassin
--- Job Abilities: Accomplice and Collaborater
--- Marinara Pizza (+1) <---- while not specific to JUST us I'll be damned if it didn't change the way we're able to play in a huge way
We still have the old standard appeals too, they never left.
--- Treasure Hunter/farming capability + lol mug/steal
--- Flee (Convinience)
--- GOD like evasion
--- /nin and now /dnc subs for most stuff and /war for others
--- Hate control through trick attack and stacked weaponskills. Sneak attack too to grab hate really
--- the power of haste is very real for us
--- status bolts are still very cool to this day
We've been given a large assortment of gear to choose from, the better pieces including, Homam, enkidus, skadi's, hecatomb, and yes the old standards of dragon/o hat/rings/denali etc are still around. There's a LOT to choose from.
Thief is a very good job with a LOT of stuff it can do. The debate of HNM has been brought up a lot of times but trying to make a dagger compete in damage with a heavy 2 handed weapon is a game mechanic that won't happen. All that attempts to do is make every job equal, and of all the melee oriented jobs thief is the most unique of them all. Truthfully I don't want to be "just another DD" and I like it that way. Edited, Nov 1st 2009 12:47am by Melphina