Give Thief a StanceFollow

So it's no secrete that THF does pretty awful DMG to mobs with high Defense. SE has been pretty big on job stances as of late so this is my take on it. Give THF a stance that gives 100% Crit rate but reduces attack speed. This would at least let us be kept in parties after TH4 gets landed. Any thoughts? Anything better?

Edited, Nov 1st 2009 6:53pm by TaruMalphius

Apparently the Admins don't like me, as my green arrows put people to default...

But yeah, /war.

Mandalic Stab has an attack modifier which makes it pretty damn good on mobs with high defense. On floor 100 Nyzul bosses as DRG/SAM with great gear and meat my Drakesbanes/Wheeling Thrusts vary between 600-900(no 2hr) where I've seen SATA Mandalic Stabs for 700-1200.

I guess I don't understand all the DD mechanics of the game. I was under the impression that only the weapon delay rating on your weapon effected tp. I better unstack all my haste gear.

I never said it had to be the way I stated 100% only that it needs to be SOMETHING that makes us more than TH whore in endgame.

Edited, Oct 31st 2009 4:06pm by TaruMalphius

Edited, Oct 31st 2009 4:07pm by TaruMalphius

No, i'm just not an @#%^ with a 4000 post count cause he likes to argue on alla and BG. SE takes suggestions off of the fan boards all the time. I'm not gonna worry about the details because SE knows how to code their game better than me (or you).

And of course, people like you keep using crappy analogies to compare to mine. THF is a DoT job with a low lv weapon. So cutting attack speed seems like the natural trade off. BTW i'm gonna link to how hasso and seigan work. I don't wanna ruin the surprise...but they both deal with delay.

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Hasso
http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Hasso



Edited, Oct 31st 2009 4:44pm by TaruMalphius

Well I don't want to ruin the surprise, but you didn't read my previous post very well.



I'm aware that Hasso gives a Haste like effect to your weapon without changing TP gain. I'm also aware of what Hasso and Seigan do to your spell timers when SAM/NIN. It's sort of obvious.

So you make a suggestion of "Give me Mighty Strikes", and think SE would even take that seriously? Are you demented? In case you were unaware, there have been literally hundreds of "improve my job threads" on the THF forum alone. If you want to make yours stand out, then try having a good idea. Hence why it was shot down, the THFs on this board recognized it straight away.

THIS WAS A BAD IDEA.
THIS WAS A BAD IDEA.
THIS WAS A BAD IDEA.

And btw, I don't post to BG. And my 4000+ post count is due posting since 2004, as I've been playing this game since May of 2004.

Edit:

I didn't add this originally, since I thought it was obvious. But if you were to have a Job Ability that increased your Delay, and it DIDN'T increase you TP gain per Hit, well that would be just plain stupid. Not only would you lower your TP phase damage, but you would lower WS frequency. Hence why I was comparing the TP gain in an analogous fashion to Footwork and Dual Wield.

Edited, Oct 31st 2009 2:02pm by Cyth

That's the pot calling the kettle black.

Constructive on what? A bad idea? Why don't you gtfo, since it's obvious you want a change to THF, but you obviously can't be bothered with the trifling details like GAME BALANCE.

That's funny, a LOT of people gave you ideas of how to improve your THF, BUT THEY MUST NOT HAVE POSTED BECAUSE YOU SAID SO!

Get over yourself, call in your White Knights to rate me down, because I ANSWERED YOUR CONCERN. Which in case you missed it, was...
How dare I indeed.

Those jobs you mentioned do nothing EXCEPT do damage. Well, the DRK can stun, but whatever. No one likes them anyway. Expecting to do damage to the same degree as them on HNMs is kinda silly, unless you're buffed and geared like mad.

Really? I must have been doing it wrong all this time then because I attended all major HNMs as thief and always have.

I don't think thief needs any buffs for HNM beyond what we have. S-E gave us Mandalic Stab, marinara pizza +1, /war and some ridiculous gear to choose from if you take the time to aquire it. What more do you really want?

Reiterating the point that I've always done all major HNM's as thief I want to remind you that on mobs with 50,000++ HP a little more damage from us isn't going to be a really big deal. Wars and Darks and Sams and etc etc all have inherent limitations and on HNM it's still the mages that do the largest chunk of damage. In the aery you only put a few melee on a wyrm PERIOD lest you eat hurricane wing and moat carp sammiches all day, king behemoth is kited so lol KB melee, aspid just blocks all forms of melee damage and 2 handers hit just as weak as we do, Cerberus is a bastard with his para/stoneskin and Khimaira is geureilla warfared. Ixion has its own dedicated thread on the front page so I'll let that one there. In all of my above examples NO melee is going to be shining brilliantly; It's just the way HNM works. NO, Sam War Drk Rng and the likes will NOT be putting out OMGWTF numbers that won't be dwarfed by the mages in every way. The mechanics of the battles just go against what a melee is capable of. They are NOT tp burn mobs and never will be. I could add other HNM's like grand wyrms Tiamat and Vrtra and Jormy but this situation is very similar.

When you consider that we alone hold the coveted Treasure Hunter that all shells want, we alone hold the godly merit feint, we alone actually BENEFIT in damage from using trick attack, can open and close both light and darkness in combination with any other melee, are the only job with collaborator and accomplice... AND can land hits and chain with the best of them with Marinara +1 and /war you have a very attractive package. Gear intelligently, play smart and don't expect to be the star of the show. You will NEVER replace a mage on a HNM in damage, but you WILL create the skillchains for them to magic burst upon. And your weaponskills supply hate and do some respectable damage if you gear well.

Thief in HNM isn't broken, some people just expect too much. We can't do everything best, and this is the area we are weakest in. However weakEST does not equate to actually being WEAK. Those two concepts are not the same at all.

Edited, Oct 31st 2009 10:10pm by Melphina

I could not possibly agree with this more.

I don't know where this mentality came from that you have to have the best possible potential to be good. Thf gets access to most of the best DD gear in the game, and played well, can pump out some serious damage.

I'm always amazed that people seem to choose DD jobs in a fantasy world of "If you have perfectly geared this job and perfectly geared that job than thf has no chance." I have met maybe a handful of "perfectly" geared SAMs in my 5-6 years of playing this game. I have seen many many more who seemed to draw their gear choices randomly out of a hat and were completely clueless as to where to point their wind slicer.

There is a huge level range of skill and gear raning form totally gimp and completely clueless to "perfectly geared" and OCD gear swaper / master of quantum mathematics and damage calculations/ has a gear set for every situation playstyle person. All players and all jobs fall somewhere within these ranges and a competant thf can and will out damage all kinds of things across this spectrum.

Whoever says that a mandau thf isn't a dd is an idiot. Unless of course that thf is a bad thf to begin with.

Edited, Nov 1st 2009 2:23am by ThiefKiller

This should go under buffs. They day after they gave us access to crossbows and status bolts Mithrankittycat solo'd behemoth on my server.

I disagree with what Lobi said entirely. First of all



Raising Marksmanship to B+? Our Marksmanship skill is C+ and at level 75 that caps at 230 natively. A B+ rating would cap at 256 skill unmerited, giving a difference of 26 skill. That's going to be less than 26 accuracy when you consider it's over 200 skill, so probably 24 ranged accuracy. Status bolts are merely there to be landed, not to do awesome damage themselves. It's the additional effect that does the magic. That's what ranged accuracy gear swaps are for, and R acc is a LOT easier to get than melee acc. An average/weak r. acc build can easily get 65-70 r. acc whereas a good one can go over 100. My own ranged accuracy set has + 110 ranged accuracy with my merits. Now when you add that we can merit feint to a 2 minute timer raising marksmanship to B+ is unnecessary.

As for a T2 level of enfeeble bolts (or simply more choices), that WOULD be a nice addition. If we received any buffs of whatever sort, adding more status bolts to our repertoire would be my favorite consideration. I like the thought of shooting paralyze or attack down bolts (even if they're relatively weak when considered to para/demon arrows) or heck... even some elementally charged bolts would be fun. That I would happily take.



Wrong. In a tp burn environment thief can keep up with 2 handers in every way. Our weaponskills are modded strong, our DoT goes up phenominally and haste becomes ever more powerful. Throw in liberal use of sa or ta timers and we throw out numbers more or less equal to a 2 hander, it just depends on our gear/skill versus theirs.

In a GOD scenario we are still a huge step up from before. Our weapon's base damages went up by 5-9 across the board and that's immense. We used to hit for 0 a LOT more and we couldn't even GET tp reliably. Berserk wasn't enough to make up for that and pizza didn't exist. There is a huge difference between not weaponskilling at all and weaponskilling for lower damage less often. Also before the dagger update assassin also did not exist. Now take the mobs you can't stand behind on and add in the fact that we can't critical our weaponskills. We couldn't even use shark bite to any effect... and DE and EV were lol worthy. We have ALSO been blessed with Mandalic Stab which is similar to shark bite/Mercy Stroke and a really POWERFUL weaponskill on them. I've seen Mandalic Stabs go off on heavy armored HNMS for hundreds of damage higher than the average shark bite on the same thief.... and it skillchains well to boot!!

By the way, arguing that 2 handers been given way too much power (ridiculously overpowered 2 handed buff as you put it) and then saying that we are now proportionately equal to them in the way we were before their 2 handed update is counterproductive. If the gap between the abilities of a thief versus that of a 2 hander is still similar today as it was back then (and it IS), then we have been buffed in the same manner as they have. We started on a much weaker footing than 2 handers did so it makes no sense that we should be raised to equal performance to them in their current state. We have been given HUGE buffs on HNM too, and personally I think some of you want too much.

Dagger Damage increase -- Check
Assassin -- Check
Mandalic Stab -- Check
Marinara Pizza plus much stronger gear -- Check
Accomplice/Collaborator -- Check

What more do you want? Some of you may not have LIKED the accomplice/collaborater buff and that's why it was taken with such ill spirits. Oh noes, it didn't raise our damage. But I LIKE that change and it is one I have used to its full potential. Allowing us to more freely manipulate hate even when we can't deal huge weaponskill damage to do it directly helped redefine our job in a place it was mostly lost.

And for the record... our T2 merits are some of the strongest of any job. The fact that we actually ARGUE on what to choose should say a lot. On many jobs the choice is clear cut. Ranger Merits snap shot and flashy shot for example... that's it. Black Mage either unlocks all AM II or focuses on burst II and freeze II. Other jobs have similar expectations. We have aura steal, feint, and assassin's charge and while I won't endorse it, some people like ambush.

-----------------------------
Summarizing that: (again)

I think too many people are trying to make thief be something it isn't. We are not "just" a DD; we are so much more. Thief is hate manipulation, money/drop aquisition, evasion tanking/kiting/ solo artist supreme, massive DoT in haste (when geared and played correctly*)and acceptable DD on Gods, wielders of the status bolts, masters of the pull (pulling is still important in many events), and we do it all in a way that only we can. A unique package that only the thief is capable of delivering. When you look at all that and ask to make thief even more powerful in the area we are most lacking in it sounds like you want to turn thief into a job with no weaknesses and the greatest of strengths everywhere we go, and that just isn't how FFXI and it's diverse job system works.

Edited, Nov 1st 2009 9:27am by Melphina

Answer: make footwork a subbable ability.

Right?

As people mentioned thief can do pretty decent damage, but it is not a pure DD
1~2 min you have a 100-200+ base damage attack
feint - zergings BFF
accomplice/collaborator - over zealous blms' best friend
TH3-4

In order to buff it to be more useful in end game, but not be broken else where would be very, very hard.

I just want them to change SA and TA so that at 75 if you're not behind the mob/ally it will still add the base damage bonus just not forced crit. Would make partying much easier

thief (like most hybrid jobs) doesn't excell in standard endgame events. thief truely excells when you do lowman events, where all the different things a thief can bring to the table can be fully utilizied.

edit: i agree lobi. although what i would really like to see would be a major boosting of all jobs when used as a SJ in an effort to get away from /sam /nin /war as the only viable melee SJs.

Edited, Nov 1st 2009 5:44pm by Buront

I do like the ideas thrown out on bolts/guns, and I like RVW's idea on an attack that can generate double enmity. I'm not against buffing thief more than it is now, I just don't think it needs to be something huge. A lot of the ideas that get thrown out most of the time either wouldn't work in practicality or are too strong that they're overpowered. There have been some good ideas given by several people that do appeal to me. My favorites in this thread are the attack that generates double enmity, new bolts or a viability to use heavier marksmanship potential via slugshot, and the trait that causes critical hits to do extra damage. I'm especially fond of the last which Buront threw out on increasing critical damage. That's something I'd really like. A passive trait that raises critical damage would act like a permanent x's knife and it could even scale according to level.

IE:
Critical mastery 1
Critical Mastery II
Critical Mastery III

Since in melee criticals are capped at 24% and in a non HNM scenario a critical is not as significant as it is in HNM that's my favorite idea for enhancing our damage that's been thrown out so far.

The thief derives its damage in more than a few ways, but one of the more fun ones is criticals. Since the first hit of stacked weaponskills is a critical the proposed change would enhance our weaponskill potential on HNMs, and I've already set myself to a hybrid attack/dex/pizza oriented setup on HNM so that's a logical thought too. A lot of the focus on thief revolves around our ability to critical from the emphasis on dex to gear like x's knife plus the skadi's set and the weaponskill evisceration, and of course trick and sneak attack themselves. Continuing down that line is a thought I welcome openly and I'd like to see that DD aspect of our game enhanced if nothing else.

Edited, Nov 1st 2009 6:35pm by Melphina

Putting Marksmanship at B+, giving THF Native Ranged WS, and allowing SA and TA to stack with Ranged WS would allow a THF to do more damage with a Ranged weapon than a RNG. SE would "likely" not allow that. RNG/THF would get the guarunteed lolranged Crit and THF would get not only the guarnteed Crit, but can use SA Slug Shot immediately followed by a wing and TA Slug Shot, in which both WS not only get the crit bonus, but the DEX and AGI multipliers. Both jobs could have Barrage, with RNGs give 2-3 more shots. I'm not sure what sub a THF would choose in such a zerg anyhow.

B or maybe even B+ markmanship I could see (although some CORs may get their feathers a litle ruffled), but native Ranged WS and SA/TA working on Ranged is a bit much, and encroaching too far into RNG territory. You want to do the Ranged Damage of a RNG, great. Then give them your EVA.

I think the idea of increased Crit rate as you level is a great idea, and definately in line with the THF job. Plus, there's less chance of SE worrying about upsetting game balance. I mean, we all know SE cares about RNG...

I really dont understand why we need to be on the same level as a Sam on HNM in the 1st place. I really dont. Im not "against" thf getting buffed in the DD department at all, but really.

Why is a sam in an alli for melee-able HNM? To beat the hell outta things. Some say "to make more SC!" but the SC itself is not very important at all these days. The total damage of teh DD that doesnt need to rest is the main appeal of having a melee in the 1st place. War fills that role. Sam does. A few others do also.

So if a Thf can output similar damage on HNM as a sam or war, have TH, have feint, collaborator, hate planting, status bolts where applicable etc, then WHY would you ever bring a sam? Why buff thf to the same level as other jobs who have DD as they exclusive role on HNMs? I just dont get it.

Most DDs are there to do just that. DD. They do it in slightly different ways that give them a minor edge or setback on various mobs etc to keep things interesting. Drk kicks ass at zergs over anyone. They are "good" on other mobs, but just dont shine in the same way. But in those situations, they have stun, absorb TP etc that gives them more utility when their DD doesnt overshadow others. Sam is the best melee when you cant melee. WS onry mobs sam is awesome as they can get TP easy, and SC anything as there are likely lots of Blms in that situation. Otherwise just a safe DD. Decent zerg, decent for "normal" fights. Just solid everywhere, but doesnt really have much to offer besides DD at all. Drg is awesome for any extended fight. They can DD with the best and NEVER have hate problems. Cant tell you how many JoLs Drgs win the parse on because they just dont die. Sams, Drks, wars, everyone always pulls hates and gets killed and the drg keeps trucking. The wyvern damage really adds up on the toughest HNMs and drgs have insane acc. On fights that they suck at, they can still offer the potent angon.

Point is, all DDs shine at different points. For all other situations, they have some other support aspect (stun, angon, feint, collab, TA, TH, hate sheding, differing damage types, whatever). Thf has the MOST support available to add to a fight of any DD. You always need TH. Zergs need feint. Feint kicks ass in non-zergs. Collaborator can be amazing. The ability to occasionally dispell something mages cant. Steady hate plants. Status Bolts. The ability to get TP/Damage through /ra. Incredible kiting abilities. All types of things we can do so that in virtually any situation, we can be useful. I dont WANT to overshadow sams in damage.

Just think like a Brd. Sure we dont top the parse, but how much damage did we add to the fight by sticking feint on byakko? how much more damage did that Rng do because we collaborated them so they didnt eat dirt? How many more drops do you provide to your group over time just for being there? (to many, the entire reason to fight X mob in the 1st place). How much faster did that low man salvage run go because you pulled with acid bolts? How many times have you made a lowman salvage run possible by being an awesome kiter? How much hate did you give to that tank? How much healing did you save by dispelling those spikes on cerb? How much healing did you save by shooting the occasional bloody bolt?

I realize everyone wants to be the star like a Kclub drk on a zerg, but we are still a support DD. On tough things, we dont top the parse. We make things go smoothly. We increase efficiency. We make that Kclub HIT by feinting. We keep that DD/Mage alive by stealing hate and planting hate. We save lives. We do things other people cant. Its not always glamorous, but we are backstage making sure everything goes the way it should.

Would I take a bonus to DD such as increased crit damage or something? Sure, but i really dont see any reason to bring thf DD on HNMs up to the level of exclusive DDs. We do moderate damage and a lot of other beneficial things. People dont appreciate those collaborators and constant TAs that prevent deaths. They may not realize just what a great asset a good thf is in a salvage group. They may not know just how potent feint is, and they sure as hell dont appreciate TH. Its more often the thfs "fault" for sh*tty drops -_-. Were unappreciated, yes. But we ARE effective. We dont need to outparse a Sam on HNM to be useful.
_______________________________________________________________
I keep seeing the general mindset of "SE needs to buff Thf DD so that a group has a REASON to invite us to an alli."

That is player perception. Thf is an asset on almost any fight if geared and played well using the full range of thfs abilities. Its just behind the scenes so people dont appreciate it. The reality is that we assist in a variety of ways that dont go under our name on the parse while still adding moderate DD if geared well. We do a hell of a lot more for an alli than a sam does. If you have a generic group of mixed jobs and your fighting almost anything, you have a few DDs, a fwe healers, nukers, support and tanks. If you are looking to fill that 18th slot, as much as sams dont want to hear it, most times a solid thf would be more beneficial than just another sam even ignoring TH. We make up the difference in direct DD power with feint alone. If you can stick an acid on it, you have added incredible damage. You will keep at least 1 person alive through good collaborator use on hi hate players. The hate dumped on tanks throughout a fight will keep someone else alive. Dispelling that annoying buff instantly will save lots of MP etc, etc, etc.

Screw the parse. Screw big number syndrome. Screw avg joes retarded "perception" that a thf isnt useful. We are useful. We help others do their jobs better and do moderate damage. What most people want through a damage buff on HNMs is to dispel the idea that Thf sucks on HNM because we have toothpicks. SE cant change perception. If they did it through a DD buff of the magnitude needed to get joe smo to like Thfs, we would be OP. Anything less and avg joe smo still wouldnt want a thf.

SE cant fix player perception without flipping the bandwagon hierarchy which is still more hype than substance anyway. Sams really arent as friggin broken as people want to think.
_________________________
Edit:
If your group doesnt think a Thf is useful besides to stick in the last 5%, then either: You really suck as a thf, or (often the case) your group/leaders dont know/appreciate what you DO bring to the table from ignorance or stupidity. A thf with 2 min feint will add more total damage to ANY melee-able HNM than 1 more sam will. Period. And thats just the start for Thf.

Edited, Nov 2nd 2009 12:55am by Banalaty

I've actually said many times that I am glad that Squenix seems to have taken THF out of the DD rat race. I would greatly prefer that THF be further specialized in enmity management; there's no need to compete with SAMs and MNKs and WARs when they can't do what you do.

As stated, I'd like a double-enmity JA. But I'd also like to see Accomplice's recast greatly reduced (or just separated from Collaborator altogether); 5 times the recast for only double the enmity stolen is not a good tradeoff. It'd also be nice for THF to have a reverse-Collaborator JA (where you transfer some of your enmity to someone else), and Hide should work on many more mobs (Super Jump works on everything, and the game hasn't imploded). I don't see why Hide doesn't work on every mob that doesn't have true-sense detection.

Edited, Nov 1st 2009 10:15pm by redvenomweb

I've been saying that exact thing for ages now, in fact I said it in this thread before he did.

Here's the thing. Every time SE does something to stop NIN, MNK and WAR/NIN pillaging game mechanics THF gets caught in the crossfire and takes a bigger hit than the jobs that were the target of the nerf. I'm not talking about boosting THF, I'm talking about returning what was taken from us by giving us something specific to THF that would undo all those years of collateral damage.



Edited, Nov 2nd 2009 3:32am by Lobivopis