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Mirke WS style vs DH+1 / HecaFollow

#1 Sep 28 2009 at 3:47 AM Rating: Good
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Hey guys.
I have a problem @_@

New month is coming and ill soone get my pay, so i can finally get my hands on mirke. I read few topics here and there and decided to make it TP style (DW -3%. 10 acc) coz it will be propably best TP piece.

But today, i started to wonder.
Maybe make it WS style?
i would augment is like this: acc+10, att+10. simple and clear.
Now comparing it to DH+1 will 5dex 5str 10 att outdo 7dex 12 Att on DH+1 ? Were talki8ng about SAWS now. And still Mirke will have 10 acc. Im kidna sure about this, just need confirmation.

Now harder thing: Hecatomb Harness or Mirke? masive 12 str / 10acc or 5str,5dex, 10 att, 10 acc ?

I know that propably Heca will be better for high Vit mobs, BUT lets talk average (i do lots of hard/semi hard NMs etc im not doing HNMs at all, but sky/dyna/einhenjar yea)

So to summarize it : Do Mirke outdo bouth these?
What will get me more benefit: taking it TP? (im using rappere in 85%+ acc, if lower SH+1)
Or taking it to WS? (using DH+1 and Heca)

peace!

PS: sorry if i made any spellings etc, my english is not good + im in work and have to hurry :)DH

Edited, Sep 28th 2009 9:32am by Danythf
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#2 Sep 28 2009 at 4:55 PM Rating: Good
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The more and more i think about it, I am starting to question the value I get out of a ACC/DW setup for Mirke.

With pizza, when i /nin rapp generally is a better choice for me (in most all situations I find myself with haste + 1 march when it matters). Solo rapp wins (unless I am soloing something hard and need evasion), dynamis Cities you can eat meat and still cap acc, Ice and Cop pizza caps it, limbus is pune on the evasion of most of the mobs (and they are all weak in genearal) assualts, nyzul, and salvage are all covered by meat or pizza. So DW + fstr and some crits, just doesnt out weight 4% more haste.

I am thinking of going to cor qd, or hauby style for WS and TPing on JoL.
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#3 Sep 29 2009 at 2:35 AM Rating: Good
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Well this lead me to another question.

DW - 3% will be close to haste +3% ? Im not sure how haste and DW formulas are to count delay reduction.
if someone could explain this on Blau+Sirocco egzample it would be great.

peace

EDIT: I have another question, kidna offtop but i guess i can ask it here.

Food

Lets take Coeurl Sub.
what that means: Attack +20% (Cap: 75@375 Base Attack)
Is that means it will give me max of 75 attack boost when i have 375 Base attack or more? And if i have less base attack it wont give me full benefit?
I know, kidna silly :)

Edited, Sep 29th 2009 6:45am by Danythf
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#4 Sep 29 2009 at 3:59 AM Rating: Good
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Some basic link :
http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Accuracy
http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Attack
http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/TP

You guessed right for the food ^^

DW affect only weapon Delay and TP calculation
Haste affect weapon Delay regardless TP calculation and reduce also recast timer from spell.

So Haste > DW is correct but the idea of Acc+DW Mirke is to increase your DoT while maintaining low delay attack. That way you can push your acc far enough to don't use Pizza against Merit Mobs but meat instead.
But it really depend on gear and merits (dagger merits are mandatory for this).
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#5 Sep 29 2009 at 6:25 AM Rating: Good
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Ahh thanks for the links Nera :)
Yea i understand what is the idea, and i have capped dagger :)

So due to my calcualtions -3% DW gives exacly same as Haste +3%.or
i got something wrong! lolz

I dint know how to exacly count this, i did it like this.
Added delay of 2 weapons, then - haste % from it, then - % from DW.

So from blau dolch+sirroco with DW of 23% and haste of 16% i got 211 delay.
With rappere (20 haste, 20DW) i got 209 Delay.
So basicly, changing rappere for Mirke will give you 10 acc 5 att but your dealy will be highter of enormous amount of....2. I take that! :)


But just to make it sure: DW will DECRESE TP gain? or it was Haste that do that? Cant find any info on this.

peace

PS: i check out Calculator when im in home :) Now im in work cant download it here.

Edited, Sep 29th 2009 10:27am by Danythf
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#6 Sep 29 2009 at 7:55 AM Rating: Excellent
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Danythf wrote:
So due to my calcualtions -3% DW gives exacly same as Haste +3%.or
i got something wrong! lolz

Besides the tp difference, at 0 haste and 0 DW they should be exactly the same. However, you're more likely to have more haste than DW when doing anything with buffs. This is why haste usually wins. Otherwise, the way they affect DoT(outside of tp gain) is the same as long as they are in the same amounts.

Quote:
But just to make it sure: DW will DECRESE TP gain? or it was Haste that do that? Cant find any info on this.

When trying to find how much TP per hit you'll have, follow this formula found here: 5.0 + [(Delay - 180) * 1.5 / 180]

For the Delay in that equation, you need to add them together, then take the Dual Wield reduction from that. BD+SK and 23 DW would be 178+150= 328*.77 = 253(we truncate up, since it's a reduction), then divide that number in half(again round/truncate up), which brings us to 127 delay per knife.

So then(assuming I'm truncating right):

5.0 + [(127 - 180)* 1.5 / 180]
5.0 + [-79.5/180]
5.0 - .4
4.6 TP per hit.


As for the discussion of 4 haste vs DW Mirke, you have to remember it's 1-2 fSTR, 3 DW, and 12.5 ACC difference(as well as 2.5 atk). I made a post about it in the DNC forums here. Basically, before DW is counted, Mirke with 10 acc gives 9% or more increase assuming you do not cap Acc, and depending on other factors like weapon base damage(I used 35 damage in my calc, but BD/SK get's a larger increase from STR). DW gives 3.896% increase from 20 to 23%.

So at a minimum, a DW Mirke that isn't wasted should give you 13% increase. In reality, it should usually give you more. I haven't been at acc cap for most things I go to, be it with Crab Sushi(birds, ~90%) or Pizza(everything else unless it caps me, then generally I use ATK food). So at what amount of haste does adding 4% haste bring you more than 13% increase?

To find the increase a delay reduction such as haste or DW, you need to subtract the haste amount from 100. The starting amount will be the number divided by the new changed amount(which will always be 4 less in this case).

At 66% haste, adding 4 gets you:
34/30 = 1.13¯, or 13.3¯%

To get 66% haste on THF before Rapp, you would need Haste, Haste Samba(fully merited), March 2x, haste spell, and 21% in haste gear before rapp(Speed/V belt and Dusk +1). As this is an extremely rare situation to be in, DW/Acc Mirke should soundly beat Rapp unless you cap Acc or are Zerging.
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#7 Sep 29 2009 at 9:11 AM Rating: Good
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Souji said what I wanted to about the rap harness, but with more math.

The only use for rap (besides utsusemi) is on mobs low enough in level that your attack, acc, and fstr are already capped. Then it's a competition between 3DW and 4 haste.

Or zerging, if you're actually in the SV rotation.
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#8 Sep 29 2009 at 10:27 AM Rating: Decent
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Rapp is for all times that your acc is capped, and utsu.

For me, that is most places. (even more if you use sushi in situations were i eat meat or pizzas)
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#9 Sep 29 2009 at 12:30 PM Rating: Good
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Yeah i know when to use rappare :)
And thanks Souj for explanation.

We got kidna offtop, i just wanted to know is WS Mirke will be better than DH+1 or Heca actually.

But i decided to take it TP style so i guess it dosnt matter then :)

Be able to eat meat anywere is what i wanted from long-time and i guess ill stick to that. (ill be doing Anwing TP style too (3%Haste, 10acc,5att)


peace

EDIT:
afterall, im still interesed in WS Mirke.

Heca would be better for high Vit mobs.
DH + im not sure if would be better at mirke on anything, almost definetly 5str/5dex/5agi/10att/10acc would beat DH+1 in anything.

Mirke that style looks to me as second best armour in game for overall WSing, right after Skadi, these stats are hard to beat!

Im also thinking of taking Anwing WS Style (4str,15ws acc, 10acc,5att), this would allow me to swap massive amount of Dex/Str into other slots i used for Acc on my Mid-acc/Mid+ - Acc/ High-acc WS sets.

Having Mirke in TP style and Anwing in WS style would incresse my performance in bouth matterns (WS and TP).

This borns another question:
Wich one make Tp and wich one WS?
Would Mirke TP increse my performance more than TP Anwing? or other side?
Would Mirke WS increse my performance more than WS Anwing? or other side?


Sorry for the wall of text, i just have alot on my mind, i rarely write on forums here coz im kidna afraid of it you can say :)

peace

Edited, Sep 29th 2009 5:04pm by Danythf
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#10Shakca, Posted: Oct 03 2009 at 3:30 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) For exp party and for DE AND EVI. Mirke hauby destroy DH. DH only win for SB. and for a capped STR situtation. Mirke hauby destroy the heca. on a exp mob this is tested. Heca only win for SOLO WS.
#11 Oct 05 2009 at 10:44 PM Rating: Good
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Shakca wrote:

For exp party and for DE AND EVI. Mirke hauby destroy is slightly better than DH. DH only win is slightly better for SB. and for a capped STR situtation. Mirke hauby destroy does barely noticeable more damage than the heca. on a exp mob this is tested. Heca only win wins by a slight margin for SOLO WS.


ftfy.


Also if you have Mandau, it's a rank 4 weapon so STR cap is higher and in addition it's a STR modded WS so in that case STR > DEX.



Edited, Oct 6th 2009 3:49am by Lobivopis
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I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#12 Oct 05 2009 at 11:54 PM Rating: Excellent
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Without breaking down dragon harness and mirkebergeon just yet, I first want to point this out.

Shacka wrote:
Quote:
I think only the skadi body is UP of mirke hauby ws style, even the antares end losing. I tested this and mirke hauby is the best WS piece if you dont have skadi.


You tested this? Nah, I doubt it. If you did you have inconclusive results at best. You always think you know what's going on by eyeballing stuff but to "test" something would mean a lot of weaponskills, and let's just say even then you won't know the difference.

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When I'm farming or soloing I can throw out a dancing edge that lands all hits for over 1000+ damage, and then follow that up immediately with a dancing edge that also lands all hits and does barely over 750 damage. No multi procs in either, just the weaponskill itself. There is a random pDIF adjustment of +/- 0.4 that every hit you ever land recieves, and because multi hit has 6 hits as /nin that will happen 6 times. That results in multi hit weaponskill damage receiving a bell shaped curve when you throw a bunch of them side by side. Identical number of hits, same target, same buffs... everything.

As an example lets say my base damage after secondary mods is 90 and my average pDIF is 1.4. Then my average hit will be 126 damage. However my minimum amount a swing can yield will be at 1.0 pDIF (90 actual damage) and the maximum it will get is 1.8 pDIF (or 162 damage). This results in a maximum variance of 72 damage each swing can have, and that's multiplied by 6 swings if all land. Therefore with a perfect roll at 1.8 pDIF on all hits and base damage 90 after mods the theoretical maximum damage will be 162 x 6 == 972, whereas the theoretical minimum is 90 x 6 == 540 damage. A difference of 432 damage from the theoretical maximum to the theoretical minimum with perfect and worst possible rolls on all 6 hits.

Now, a majority of weaponskills will hover relatively close to the mean of this variance. If you consider an example where you get + 0.15 + 0.25 + 0.32 + 0.8 and - 0.24 and -0.17 then that averages to + 0.065 pDIF across all 6 swings. Nowhere near the theoretical max/min. But you CAN and WILL eventually get both lucky and unlucky rolls where the average deviates much greater than normal. And that variance is far ... far ... faaaar too great to ever be able to "test" with ANY reliability on two body armors with such similar stats (I'll break that down next post).
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Summarising that: No, you didn't test anything. Whatever results you thought were yielded were just eyeballing the figures. It would take a parse with many thousands of weaponskills to come to a conclusion within any reliable degree of a margin of error (and because the stats are so close I do mean many many thousands.

Edited, Oct 8th 2009 1:19am by Melphina
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#13 Oct 06 2009 at 12:13 AM Rating: Good
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I'm going to make a second post to answer the OP's question to keep my thoughts readabale and separate the clutter. By the way, Lobi gave the correct answer two posts up. He's right on the mark, this just tells why.

Dragon Harness stats -- 6 dex, 6 agi, 10 attack
Heca Harness stats -- 12 strength + 10 accuracy
Mirkebergeon stats -- 5 dex, 5 agi, 5 str, 10 accuracy, 10 attack

Shark bite -- The 5 str of mirke will add 1 base damage in most situations, so you get 6 base damage as you would with dragon harness, but with 1 dex less you will risk losing 1 wsc from the 50% modifier. It has 12.5 attack versus 10, and other than that you have 1 less base damage from the agi/dex on mirke than dragon. It's so close to identical it's scary. Mirkebergeon is a bit better, but it's very close.

Dancing Edge and Evisceration -- Mirkebergeon has 12.5 attack, but the heca harness has 6 as a side of strength, putting mirke 6.5 attack up. It has 12.5 accuracy instead of 11 accuracy, putting it 1.5 accuracy up. The counter is it only adds 5 dex for wsc, which will usually grant 2 base damage (it CAN and will occasionally only give one) whereas the heca's 12 strength will raise base damage by 3, or 1 more than the mirke in uncapped str. Comparing them side by side they're also virtually identical, and again the mirkebergeon has a very slight lead.
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Summary:

Mirkebergeon is an all in one body that fills the role of it's counterparts nicely. The only upgrades are skadi's cuirie for multi hit, dragon harness +1 for shark bite, and for tp you have homam corazza and homam +1 style mirke. In every case there is a superior alternative and if you have them all then over time the results become noticeable, but nobody will scoff at you if you choose a mirkebergeon over trying to go for the alternatives if you don't have them.

Edited, Oct 6th 2009 2:03pm by Melphina
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#14 Oct 06 2009 at 5:04 AM Rating: Good
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Mistress Melphina wrote:

Shark bite -- The 5 str of mirke will add 1 base damage in most situations, so you get 6 base damage as you would with dragon harness, but with 1 dex less you will risk losing 1 wsc from the 50% modifier. It has 12.5 attack versus 10, and other than that you have 1 less base damage from the agi/dex on mirke than dragon. It's so close to identical it's scary. Mirkebergeon is a bit better, but it's very close.


I would just like to point out, that it may lose 1 wsc, but the 1 fSTR makes up for it. Don't forget that both WSC and fSTR are multiplied by the 2.0 (at least) fTP bonus, so losing 1 dex on SA is more than made up with the 1 fSTR, especially if you don't lose the WSC. However, you are right, it is only slightly better than DH, not worlds better.
#15 Oct 06 2009 at 9:00 AM Rating: Decent
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Meldi wrote:
Mistress Melphina wrote:

Shark bite -- The 5 str of mirke will add 1 base damage in most situations, so you get 6 base damage as you would with dragon harness, but with 1 dex less you will risk losing 1 wsc from the 50% modifier. It has 12.5 attack versus 10, and other than that you have 1 less base damage from the agi/dex on mirke than dragon. It's so close to identical it's scary. Mirkebergeon is a bit better, but it's very close.


I would just like to point out, that it may lose 1 wsc, but the 1 fSTR makes up for it.

fSTR+1 has already been accounted for. See above.
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#16 Oct 06 2009 at 9:06 AM Rating: Excellent
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I read it rvw... my point was if you are firing off SB at anything other than 100 tp, even losing 1 point of WSC Mirke is slightly stronger than DH for SB because fSTR and WSC are modified by fTP while the -1 dex for SA is not. I also agreed that the difference is very small, but I would stand by anyone who decided to sell their DH in favor of a Mirke hauby, because in 90% of all senarios, it at least equals it, if not betters it slightly.

Edit: for clarification, 1 fSTR on SB adds at least 2 base damage to the first hit.

Edited, Oct 6th 2009 12:07pm by Meldi
#17 Oct 06 2009 at 10:52 AM Rating: Good
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Remember that Mirke can be a solid tp and ws piece for multiple jobs, so if you have any other jobs that could use it as 10acc/atk.

Granted there are a lot of other more job specific uses you could get out of it, but if you were just going for a solid generic melee piece it basically covers thief, monk, puppetmaster, dancer, bluemage, (maybe corsair?) and to a lesser degree ninja and beastmaster.
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#18 Oct 06 2009 at 12:42 PM Rating: Good
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Correct me if I'm wrong here, but I seem to remember some numbers being run showing Enkidu harness to be (slightly) better than homam body for tp?

If that is the case, would not Acc/Att Mirke be better than Homam body? Given that it has 2.5 acc on Enkidu's?

I can't remember where i read that (maybe I was dreaming)
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#19 Oct 06 2009 at 1:33 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
Correct me if I'm wrong here, but I seem to remember some numbers being run showing Enkidu harness to be (slightly) better than homam body for tp?

If that is the case, would not Acc/Att Mirke be better than Homam body? Given that it has 2.5 acc on Enkidu's?

I can't remember where i read that (maybe I was dreaming)


Yes, that comparison was run a while ago. It resulted in the understanding that enkidu's harness WAS better DoT than homam corazza because of the increase in attack and base damage on each hit. The drawback was that the homam corazza had a higher weaponskill frequency, and the difference of 2.5% accuracy + 1% triple attack was agreed upon (generally) as a better option. Still, it showed that the enkidu's wasn't a bad option for melee, whereas previously people disregarded it in large part for anything at all. Mirkebergeon takes the strength of enkidu's and adds an additional 5 dex for another 1 or 1.5% accuracy.

Quick note: It's technically incorrect to say 1.25% accuracy because nothing adds 1.25%. It's either 1% if it doesn't break an accuracy tier, or 1.5% if it does. But since we can't know whether or not any one person will break a tier it's acceptable to say 1.25% averaged across everyone. I just add this for completeness.

Honestly once again you have a body that can compete with the homam corazza. At the time I ran the original numbers nobody dared contest the homam body for anything, but times have changed since then. Homam is similar to enkidu's, and mirkebergeon is just that much better than enkidu's.

I can close this argument with a simple question/answer. Do you remember when Homam Corazza was first released in 2005/2006 before the 2 handed update? At the time Dark Knights were the only "heavy DD" oriented job that could equip a haubergeon as well as the homam corazza (remember the timeframe; back in 2005 paladin was still a turtle job and thief and dragoon were still loljobs that couldn't do damage in the eyes of 90% of the playerbase). Did dark knights strive to get the homam corazza then? The answer is NO. By and large, they did not. A majority of Dark Knights chose to wear their trusty haubergeon and used their limbus points to get the OTHER homam pieces first. There were exceptions (like dark knights who feared the evasion down) but a majority stuck to that trend.

Now, if the haubergeon was powerful enough that most dark knights ignored the homam corazza BEFORE the 2 handed update occured, and the mirkebergeon has the same stuff a hauby does plus 5 agility more, it should come as no surprise that in melee DoT the mirkebergeon will stand toe to toe with a homam corazza for a thief as well. Haubergeon was ALWAYS a staple armor that every job that could wear it HAD to have. It always was, and always will be just THAT powerful.

I will reiterate one more time why people choose to go homam +1 style mirke instead of Haubergeon style. The Homam +1 mirke is a lot better than homam corazza when /nin in both tp gain AND DoT. The dragon harness and heca harness perform very similar to the mirkebergeon in weaponskill, so to push ones limitations further a stronger tp piece is the way to go. The cost is having to carry around more pieces of armor, and also to actually OWN said pieces. A mirkebergeon will replace the heca harness and dragon harness in weaponskill, and even the homam corazza for DoT. However, if you own heca harness and dragon harness anyway then a homam +1 mirke will take that even further, and you get MORE power overall. A TP style mirke DOES stand up to the melee DoT power of the mirkebergeon because the increased number of attacks compensates almost identically for the difference of the 10 attack. It's the old "I hit you more often == I do more damage to you", and in this case the 3% dual wield increase mirrors the damage increase in DoT frighteningly close to what the gain of 10 attack would do. But by increasing the number of hits you not only raise DoT by an equivalent amount, you raise TP/hr by enough to throw out several more weaponskills in the same timeframe. It's a specialized use!! This effect is compounded even more if you own the skadi's cuirie to weaponskill in because it's even stronger than the mirkebergeon.

Mirkebergeon is a badass piece for all purposes on any job that can wear it. I have skadi's cuirie and I have dragon harness +1, but what I DON'T have is homam corazza OR enkidu's harness. That made MY choice easy because I focus on only the thief job. I plan to finish my final skadi's item and use the set for /war, and as /nin continue to keep my TP mirke, because it filled my largest gap in performance in a way that no other piece could. Similarly others have made the same choice because they own and are willing to carry around the 3 different body armors to make TP mirke worth using. If you don't own those, OR just want to save space, mirkebergeon is a fine and awesome choice no matter how you slice it.

Edited, Oct 6th 2009 8:19pm by Melphina
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#20 Oct 07 2009 at 1:23 PM Rating: Good
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Hey thanks for inputs yall ! :)

Really happy to make good discussion.
I just got my mirke yesterday after lolONE day of making missions i got it TP style after all, target is to eat meat all the time so i decided to make it tp, switching from sushi to meat on most of mobs increse my performance alot.

Augments are 10acc and DW3%. Aside that it dsnt look so cool as rappare im really happy with it :)

I also decided to swap some of my WS macroses. Where i used DH for DE and Evi, i put Mirke now, if im not wrong, and i hope not it will still outperform DH on these WS right? even with DW3%. 5str,5dex,10acc vs 10att,6dex. Im not much into math but i hope its right decision.
For SB i left DH there.
I should be getting Heca soon so Mirke will go strictly TP.

My main argument to make it TP was: I rather get best TP body hands down than situacional best/second best WS piece.

Now only to get Anwing!
peace
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