Mirke WS style vs DH+1 / HecaFollow

Hey guys.
I have a problem @_@

New month is coming and ill soone get my pay, so i can finally get my hands on mirke. I read few topics here and there and decided to make it TP style (DW -3%. 10 acc) coz it will be propably best TP piece.

But today, i started to wonder.
Maybe make it WS style?
i would augment is like this: acc+10, att+10. simple and clear.
Now comparing it to DH+1 will 5dex 5str 10 att outdo 7dex 12 Att on DH+1 ? Were talki8ng about SAWS now. And still Mirke will have 10 acc. Im kidna sure about this, just need confirmation.

Now harder thing: Hecatomb Harness or Mirke? masive 12 str / 10acc or 5str,5dex, 10 att, 10 acc ?

I know that propably Heca will be better for high Vit mobs, BUT lets talk average (i do lots of hard/semi hard NMs etc im not doing HNMs at all, but sky/dyna/einhenjar yea)

So to summarize it : Do Mirke outdo bouth these?
What will get me more benefit: taking it TP? (im using rappere in 85%+ acc, if lower SH+1)
Or taking it to WS? (using DH+1 and Heca)

peace!

PS: sorry if i made any spellings etc, my english is not good + im in work and have to hurry :)DH

Edited, Sep 28th 2009 9:32am by Danythf

Well this lead me to another question.

DW - 3% will be close to haste +3% ? Im not sure how haste and DW formulas are to count delay reduction.
if someone could explain this on Blau+Sirocco egzample it would be great.

peace

EDIT: I have another question, kidna offtop but i guess i can ask it here.

Food

Lets take Coeurl Sub.
what that means: Attack +20% (Cap: 75@375 Base Attack)
Is that means it will give me max of 75 attack boost when i have 375 Base attack or more? And if i have less base attack it wont give me full benefit?
I know, kidna silly :)

Edited, Sep 29th 2009 6:45am by Danythf

Ahh thanks for the links Nera :)
Yea i understand what is the idea, and i have capped dagger :)

So due to my calcualtions -3% DW gives exacly same as Haste +3%.or
i got something wrong! lolz

I dint know how to exacly count this, i did it like this.
Added delay of 2 weapons, then - haste % from it, then - % from DW.

So from blau dolch+sirroco with DW of 23% and haste of 16% i got 211 delay.
With rappere (20 haste, 20DW) i got 209 Delay.
So basicly, changing rappere for Mirke will give you 10 acc 5 att but your dealy will be highter of enormous amount of....2. I take that! :)


But just to make it sure: DW will DECRESE TP gain? or it was Haste that do that? Cant find any info on this.

peace

PS: i check out Calculator when im in home :) Now im in work cant download it here.

Edited, Sep 29th 2009 10:27am by Danythf

*a wild chatokun appears!*

Souji said what I wanted to about the rap harness, but with more math.

The only use for rap (besides utsusemi) is on mobs low enough in level that your attack, acc, and fstr are already capped. Then it's a competition between 3DW and 4 haste.

Or zerging, if you're actually in the SV rotation.

Yeah i know when to use rappare :)
And thanks Souj for explanation.

We got kidna offtop, i just wanted to know is WS Mirke will be better than DH+1 or Heca actually.

But i decided to take it TP style so i guess it dosnt matter then :)

Be able to eat meat anywere is what i wanted from long-time and i guess ill stick to that. (ill be doing Anwing TP style too (3%Haste, 10acc,5att)


peace

EDIT:
afterall, im still interesed in WS Mirke.

Heca would be better for high Vit mobs.
DH + im not sure if would be better at mirke on anything, almost definetly 5str/5dex/5agi/10att/10acc would beat DH+1 in anything.

Mirke that style looks to me as second best armour in game for overall WSing, right after Skadi, these stats are hard to beat!

Im also thinking of taking Anwing WS Style (4str,15ws acc, 10acc,5att), this would allow me to swap massive amount of Dex/Str into other slots i used for Acc on my Mid-acc/Mid+ - Acc/ High-acc WS sets.

Having Mirke in TP style and Anwing in WS style would incresse my performance in bouth matterns (WS and TP).

This borns another question:
Wich one make Tp and wich one WS?
Would Mirke TP increse my performance more than TP Anwing? or other side?
Would Mirke WS increse my performance more than WS Anwing? or other side?


Sorry for the wall of text, i just have alot on my mind, i rarely write on forums here coz im kidna afraid of it you can say :)

peace

Edited, Sep 29th 2009 5:04pm by Danythf

ftfy.


Also if you have Mandau, it's a rank 4 weapon so STR cap is higher and in addition it's a STR modded WS so in that case STR > DEX.



Edited, Oct 6th 2009 3:49am by Lobivopis

I'm going to make a second post to answer the OP's question to keep my thoughts readabale and separate the clutter. By the way, Lobi gave the correct answer two posts up. He's right on the mark, this just tells why.

Dragon Harness stats -- 6 dex, 6 agi, 10 attack
Heca Harness stats -- 12 strength + 10 accuracy
Mirkebergeon stats -- 5 dex, 5 agi, 5 str, 10 accuracy, 10 attack

Shark bite -- The 5 str of mirke will add 1 base damage in most situations, so you get 6 base damage as you would with dragon harness, but with 1 dex less you will risk losing 1 wsc from the 50% modifier. It has 12.5 attack versus 10, and other than that you have 1 less base damage from the agi/dex on mirke than dragon. It's so close to identical it's scary. Mirkebergeon is a bit better, but it's very close.

Dancing Edge and Evisceration -- Mirkebergeon has 12.5 attack, but the heca harness has 6 as a side of strength, putting mirke 6.5 attack up. It has 12.5 accuracy instead of 11 accuracy, putting it 1.5 accuracy up. The counter is it only adds 5 dex for wsc, which will usually grant 2 base damage (it CAN and will occasionally only give one) whereas the heca's 12 strength will raise base damage by 3, or 1 more than the mirke in uncapped str. Comparing them side by side they're also virtually identical, and again the mirkebergeon has a very slight lead.
------------------------
Summary:

Mirkebergeon is an all in one body that fills the role of it's counterparts nicely. The only upgrades are skadi's cuirie for multi hit, dragon harness +1 for shark bite, and for tp you have homam corazza and homam +1 style mirke. In every case there is a superior alternative and if you have them all then over time the results become noticeable, but nobody will scoff at you if you choose a mirkebergeon over trying to go for the alternatives if you don't have them.

Edited, Oct 6th 2009 2:03pm by Melphina

fSTR+1 has already been accounted for. See above.

Remember that Mirke can be a solid tp and ws piece for multiple jobs, so if you have any other jobs that could use it as 10acc/atk.

Granted there are a lot of other more job specific uses you could get out of it, but if you were just going for a solid generic melee piece it basically covers thief, monk, puppetmaster, dancer, bluemage, (maybe corsair?) and to a lesser degree ninja and beastmaster.

Yes, that comparison was run a while ago. It resulted in the understanding that enkidu's harness WAS better DoT than homam corazza because of the increase in attack and base damage on each hit. The drawback was that the homam corazza had a higher weaponskill frequency, and the difference of 2.5% accuracy + 1% triple attack was agreed upon (generally) as a better option. Still, it showed that the enkidu's wasn't a bad option for melee, whereas previously people disregarded it in large part for anything at all. Mirkebergeon takes the strength of enkidu's and adds an additional 5 dex for another 1 or 1.5% accuracy.

Quick note: It's technically incorrect to say 1.25% accuracy because nothing adds 1.25%. It's either 1% if it doesn't break an accuracy tier, or 1.5% if it does. But since we can't know whether or not any one person will break a tier it's acceptable to say 1.25% averaged across everyone. I just add this for completeness.

Honestly once again you have a body that can compete with the homam corazza. At the time I ran the original numbers nobody dared contest the homam body for anything, but times have changed since then. Homam is similar to enkidu's, and mirkebergeon is just that much better than enkidu's.

I can close this argument with a simple question/answer. Do you remember when Homam Corazza was first released in 2005/2006 before the 2 handed update? At the time Dark Knights were the only "heavy DD" oriented job that could equip a haubergeon as well as the homam corazza (remember the timeframe; back in 2005 paladin was still a turtle job and thief and dragoon were still loljobs that couldn't do damage in the eyes of 90% of the playerbase). Did dark knights strive to get the homam corazza then? The answer is NO. By and large, they did not. A majority of Dark Knights chose to wear their trusty haubergeon and used their limbus points to get the OTHER homam pieces first. There were exceptions (like dark knights who feared the evasion down) but a majority stuck to that trend.

Now, if the haubergeon was powerful enough that most dark knights ignored the homam corazza BEFORE the 2 handed update occured, and the mirkebergeon has the same stuff a hauby does plus 5 agility more, it should come as no surprise that in melee DoT the mirkebergeon will stand toe to toe with a homam corazza for a thief as well. Haubergeon was ALWAYS a staple armor that every job that could wear it HAD to have. It always was, and always will be just THAT powerful.

I will reiterate one more time why people choose to go homam +1 style mirke instead of Haubergeon style. The Homam +1 mirke is a lot better than homam corazza when /nin in both tp gain AND DoT. The dragon harness and heca harness perform very similar to the mirkebergeon in weaponskill, so to push ones limitations further a stronger tp piece is the way to go. The cost is having to carry around more pieces of armor, and also to actually OWN said pieces. A mirkebergeon will replace the heca harness and dragon harness in weaponskill, and even the homam corazza for DoT. However, if you own heca harness and dragon harness anyway then a homam +1 mirke will take that even further, and you get MORE power overall. A TP style mirke DOES stand up to the melee DoT power of the mirkebergeon because the increased number of attacks compensates almost identically for the difference of the 10 attack. It's the old "I hit you more often == I do more damage to you", and in this case the 3% dual wield increase mirrors the damage increase in DoT frighteningly close to what the gain of 10 attack would do. But by increasing the number of hits you not only raise DoT by an equivalent amount, you raise TP/hr by enough to throw out several more weaponskills in the same timeframe. It's a specialized use!! This effect is compounded even more if you own the skadi's cuirie to weaponskill in because it's even stronger than the mirkebergeon.

Mirkebergeon is a badass piece for all purposes on any job that can wear it. I have skadi's cuirie and I have dragon harness +1, but what I DON'T have is homam corazza OR enkidu's harness. That made MY choice easy because I focus on only the thief job. I plan to finish my final skadi's item and use the set for /war, and as /nin continue to keep my TP mirke, because it filled my largest gap in performance in a way that no other piece could. Similarly others have made the same choice because they own and are willing to carry around the 3 different body armors to make TP mirke worth using. If you don't own those, OR just want to save space, mirkebergeon is a fine and awesome choice no matter how you slice it.

Edited, Oct 6th 2009 8:19pm by Melphina