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A new look at the skadi's hands/head + the set crit bonus.Follow

#1 Sep 13 2009 at 11:57 PM Rating: Excellent
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Hi to everyone, I've got another fun post for you to pique your brains over. This time the subject is of the skadi's leather armor set, both the set of 5/5 as well as the "less useful" individual pieces. Since we already know what to do with the cuirie, chausses and jambeaux I'm not going to rehash that and get straight to the meat of my discussion. This plays upon the "sh*t is situational" routine, but that's FFXI for ya so all's fair game.

Skadi's Bazubands

I've never heard many good words mentioned of this piece, and it makes sense as to why. Still, it does have practical uses that have been overlooked in large part. The relevant stats are the 5 str, 5 agi, and 12.5 attack (with str consideration).

This is one of the strongest solo sneak attack hands there is in the game. I consulted Shamaya on this one, and he's in agreement with me on it's placement. It's right up there with the ANNM Dex +7 dragon hands. While it's not quite AS good, it's close enough that you can choose either or and get results that are almost parallel. As a bonus, it's inventory +1! If you want to check out the thread that came from it's located here. I advocate the results of the thread, and I'm in agreement with his findings on haste/attack/stats in solo crits.

The second use of these is to couple them with a trick attack + Multi hit weaponskill. They aren't better than AF +1 in non multi hit or a SA + WS, but in TA + dancing edge they ARE the best, and in TA + evisc I would still go with them. The reasoning is pretty straightforward. Because only the middle 4 hits of a TA WS can ever miss the accuracy bonus of dex alternative hands isn't quite as significant. It has 5 agility for the first hit critical, and the 5 strength is 1 (or 2) fSTR, and the 12.5 attack is enough to do the rest. In a TA + Multi hit the skadi's bazubands are the strongest choice available. I've played with the formulas and considered multi proc and even /nin vs /war and considered the difference between my HQ heca gloves +1 and my AF +1 hands and they still come out a few percent over the other alternatives.

As a side..... these are also a superior choice to hecatomb for a Trick attack Mercy Stroke >.>. Even a relic user will find use from these.

skadi's visor

Again drawing on the topic of solo criticals and the context of shamaya's thread, this is the strongest solo sneak attack piece you will get. It offers 4 dex, 6 attack and 3% haste, and that's going to beat out any other choice. In a solo trick attack it will also be the best option for the same reasons (substituting agility for attack of course). And just like the bazubands instead of having to lug around two different head items it's inventory +1 as well!!. It fulfills both solo crits to the peak of performance all by itself. Of course we've known its weaponskill potential for ages. It's only beaten by hecatomb cap, weaponskill style anwig, or O Hat if accuracy sucks.

Now the final tidbit.

The whole set and the corresponding bonus to crits

Wearing the skadi's set of 5/5 at once is one of those sh*t is situational things that you probably won't see much as /nin. However it IS nice for the /war build, ESPECIALLY with the x's knife.

The relevant melee oriented stuff is

* STR +8 (or fSTR +2)
* DEX +12
* Accuracy + 25 (this includes the bonus of dex)
* Attack +30 (this includes the bonus of strength)
* "Store TP" +7
* Haste +5%
* Increases movement speed
* Set: Increases rate of critical hits (5% bonus to criticals)

For what it's worth it also has this, although probably not very relevant.

* Ranged Accuracy +19
* Ranged Attack +26

As an added bonus, this set LOOKS pretty badass. It's worth noting that they made the salvage armor sets very aesthetically pleasing (especially on a mithra >.>).

The set of 5 sees some good use on the much harder targets. These are fights that are NOT a strict tp burn, so hate control matters more, and you can't just weaponskill whenever you want due to a variety of factors with each fight (up to and including actively avoiding a group wiping super death attack). On these targets critical hits mean a lot more, and the set has 30 attack. Even when you /war berserk will be down a minimum of 40% of the time, and criticaling against a HNM or other super defensive target means guaranteed tp. Plus there will be times you won't even be allowed to /war for various reasons.

Additionally to this, having movement speed feet on fulltime is always nice when the sh*t hits the fan and you gotta mobilize NOW. OH SH*T moments DO happen on HNMs so not having to swap can save a few seconds, potentially allowing many things, from kiting to getting into range of a mage to hit accomplice/collaborator with. (The range of accomp/collaborator is puny, and on HNM mages will be standing at max or near max range to cast, and out of range when not casting).

I've been playing around the past few days with the 4 pieces I have and have been pretty pleased. Most notably I've put them to the test against the Quadav in the grauberg (S) augment fight and the bugard in MMM that drops the kogglemeister and mamool ja earring. That bugard is such an evil soandso. My melee hits were almost always 0, but when I criticaled it was my most reliable source of TP. This was a pickup group and since he's a raptor that has a very powerful attack I subbed /nin. We beefed his strength WAAAY up with super strong runes and ended up getting our drop, but in a scenario like this I would advocate the set of 5/5 skadi's even in melee. On some things crits just mean THAT much more than they do everywhere else.

Looking at all that, there really isn't any piece in the skadi's set that's not worth trying to get. Of course you should be prioritizing them accordingly (you know which pieces are best for you), but none of them are worth overlooking for daily use. And if you're lucky enough to get the full set it has some nice situational uses on stuff that raises the bar of performance high enough to make melee crits worth wearing it in full.

Edited, Sep 14th 2009 4:13am by Melphina
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#2 Sep 14 2009 at 12:49 AM Rating: Good
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Are the bazubands better for ta+mercy? Now I don't have to do the math myself ^^ (tho if I had them I prolly would anyway)

I do find that situational x's/war skadi build interesting. From a math perspective it'd be hard to touch, since it's being used on mobs for which we don't know the stats, and the rules of play are def different than in burn-style play. Worth checkin out (for those that haven't done the MMM bugard, "high def" is an understatement). Even if it worked out that somehow you did less overall DPS going from traditional build -> full skadi, but gained TP faster due to hitting for 0 less often (not sure if this is even possible), sometimes building TP for an SC is just better than maximizing your own dmg.

It's interesting..people used to think that the skadi set was rather trash. Well, it is sorta limited. But people used to think that head/hands were worthless. Not so.

Another use for non-haste builds, non-dps-max builds is to minimize TP fed. Doubt many have seen this, but I did a writeup on subtle blow builds. Check it out if you're interested. I think TP builds are more flexible than many realize, though, especially for this job. Imagine, for example, meleeing in pieces like skadi head and skadi hands as opposed to the traditional build. If you have decent accuracy, pDif, and magic haste, chances are you won't want to melee in skadi head or hands.

But on anything that has strong TP moves, I wonder. Let's say you were tanking/co-tanking floor 4 arrapago chariot, a yovra, or a similar mob. There's always the option of using a subtle blow build to minimize TP fed. But further, one could also use a "mid range" set.

Skadi hands - (5agi) 5str, 10 atk
Skadi head - 3% haste, (4agi), 4dex, 6atk

These don't have subtle blow on them, but the effect is similar. Rather than aiming to maximize 'hit rate' (via attack speed or accuracy), the goal would be to maximize the power of each hit. It'd be less overall dmg, but the ratio of DmgYouDo:TPMobGets would be better. So such a build would be like a compromise between full subtle blow and full DPS. Or you could just use full DPS some of the time, full subtle blow some of the time, for balance (what I do atm). Either way, I think full-skadi could be a good hypothetical "mid range" set. Just brainstormin :/


Invent+1. Lol.. Sometimes I wonder if these days it's more of a strategy for maximizing utility than for personal convenience. Anyone else have half their satchel filled with situational thf gear on top of their inventory? Either way I think these 2 pieces do a good job of invent+1 (though they also act as -1). I don't use Denali head anymore, though it probably has a role in some haste/evasion hybrid build somewhere..

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that they made the salvage armor sets very aesthetically pleasing (especially on a mithra >.>).
Seconded :P. I still think full homam looks about the most badass combo of gear in the game, and I used to think skadi looked god-awful, but these days it looks fashionable in comparison o.O

Ah yeah, and skadi's visor isn't the best sa/ta piece! The top-dog is Maat's Cap :3.

Edited, Sep 14th 2009 8:55am by Shamaya
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#3 Sep 14 2009 at 8:00 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Are the bazubands better for ta+mercy? Now I don't have to do the math myself ^^ (tho if I had them I prolly would anyway)


Yeah, they are. I read about a mandau thief using them in TA + Mercy Stroke a while back and it never occured to me to use something other than hecatomb or hecatomb +1 gloves. But at the time the stats of the skadi's bazubands weren't something I had memorized because everyone said they were outright trash. I played around with numbers and he was doing it right. On the first hit critical of mercy stroke 2 strength == 3 base damage due to the wsc x fTP mod. The hecatomb gloves +1 are the closest alternative to to skadi's bazubands here. If only 1 str tier is lost the first hit critical is actually two base damage higher with the skadi's bazubands than it is with the hecatomb gloves +1 (and with normal quality hecatomb gloves this will always be the case). If 2 str tiers are lost you end up 1 base damage down on the first hit crit. However you also get 10 attack aside from the str difference, so depending on str tiers broken you end up with attack + 9 or attack + 8. The change in pDIF from 8-9 attack will be approximately ~~ 3%, which is enough to make skadi's the victor. An appropriately geared mercy stroke thief will have a base damage of approximately ~~ 430-440 damage depending on how elite they are as well as race, but this is a ballpark figure that will hold true enough to go by. This takes the concept of "critical hit" like a solo sneak attack or ta and goes one step further with truly massive base damage (without haste consideration like your thread).

Now continuing this you have to consider that there is no fTP bonus on the offhand as /nin or any multi procs so the str bonus is worth a lot less on extra swings. On those 2 strength == 1 base damage from wsc, and 4 str == 1 from fSTR. This is countered by raising the pDIF by ~~ 3% once more, resulting once again in higher damage from the bazubands regardless of str tiers lost on extra swings.

Skadi's bazubands are a stronger TA Mercy Stroke piece than the hecatomb gloves +1 or any other alternative. They will beef up ALL hits by a larger amount, first hit critical or offhand alike, regardless of str tiers lost. Simply put, the skadi's bazubands are THE weaponskill hand piece of choice for TA + mercy stroke bar none. Sneak attack + Mercy Stroke is a given of hecatomb (+1)... but that's a "duh" anyway.
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The skadi's set bonus --- You hit upon what I was thinking when I commented on it. There are times when each players individual performance is dwarfed in lieu of that of the greater whole, and that happens on targets that actually matter. The big guys that drop all those shiney fancy stuffs we all want so much. On higher level targets feeding tp too fast even when you can be on fulltime isn't always the best option, there ARE times when raising your own damage output vs. Mob tp feed can be beneficial, and in the case of a critical hit it provides the biggest "bang for your buck" if you will alongside the subtle blow conceptual build. The side is that a critical should always give tp (only physical shield and stoneskin/phalanx type moves will counter a crit to reduce it to 0.... otherwise your attack is WAY too low so just give up now.).

The skadi's SET is a really NICE alternative to the focus of pure haste when you consider HNM type mobs, and this can be considered both in things that do and do not require a full alliance. In a full alliance you have a lot of people beating on the thing AND controlling it, but it may have an attack that's so powerful you have to be vigilant at all times. I did touch upon the puny range of accomp/collaborator and the fact you would have the run feet on fulltime, but even without that there are times you just gotta GTFO NOW!! because YOU just sustained heavy damage and your hp is critical. Having the jambeaux on immediately can possibly get you out of range in time to avoid receiving a finishing blow versus getting to the mages in time to receive a life sustaining cure. This concept is something I came to appreciate in ballista where gear swaps stun/bind you but it can be applied to other aspects of the game with equal relevance.

I'm a great advocate of the "stuff is situational" thing, and the full set of skadi's gear is just another feather in the hat. Adding MORE options to how you can handle any given scenario is never a bad thing. It isn't great for a burn setup, but not everything we do is a burn now is it?

Quote:
Ah yeah, and skadi's visor isn't the best sa/ta piece! The top-dog is Maat's Cap :3.


Woops, I concede this point. Maat's cap >> Skadi's in solo crit any day of the week. But when you consider maat's cap versus getting skadi's visor to me it's more of an "if you have it use it" deal. With only 1 job leveled the exp to get maat's cap is staggering, even with 4-6 completed it's wicked. If you're going for maat's cap you're going to be doing so on your own accord anyway; you don't look at maat's cap for an upgrade to solo sa or ta and nothing else. So in that context I'll admit it slipped my mind, but I wouldn't say it diminishes the value of skadi's just because of what it means to get it.

Edited, Sep 14th 2009 9:20pm by Melphina
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#4 Sep 14 2009 at 10:14 AM Rating: Decent
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With regards to "the best solo SA and TA" options, Shamaya's OP is still incorrect.

Quote:
Kirschy posted on BG that haste and slow are not the same term, but are calculated separately. What this means is that slow is not as bad as it "should be."

Incorrect assumption: 1 * [1 - (.5 - .1)] = .6, or 10% slow was thought to decrease attack speed with 50% haste by 20%.
Actual: 1 * [1 - .5] * [1 + .1] = .55, or 10% slow decreases attack speed by 10% only.


This point was never acknowleged, and the OP never corrected. And when it is considered, Hecatomb's worth increases, as the slow penalty is less significant.
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#5 Sep 14 2009 at 11:22 AM Rating: Decent
Blaaaaah.... I have been lectured about 18 times by various ppl that "skadi's is **** for Mandau don't even bother except for the feet if you don't have trotter's". (I don't, so I am.) Even tho I was asking about the pants for tp set etc, just nonono not w/ that dagger.

Now I am confused and conflicted. 90% of the time I have done any events as a mage, so I am still feeling my way around on THF but I have picked up 5/5 of the 15s and 2/25 freyr's on free lot from doing salvage thinking it would be nice sometime (& look hawt on my pretty hume f). (Also looking at maat's, so would be reasonable to look at it from other job's perspectives, just wasn't hurrying you know?)

I have only heca hands and legs until I can arrange to buy the abjurations since I don't have a sky/ hnm shell since months/ gosh years now? ago, is skadi better to spend my time with? Should I rearrange my wishlists? I had it drilled STR STR STR, but I am not one to be mulish when presented with better advice, yet not inclined to think mathematically/ learn the formulas. My brain just looks at it and says: we could be crocheting something now! and off I go. lol

I haven't even gone too far to thinking about /WAR as I am usually utilised as a mage on anything important, tho I am aware from the few times I have gone DRG to angon **** that damage is an issue: when your polearm w/ a fairly pimped out DRG is gimped to low double digits on something really defensive I definitely worry about hitting for single digits (or lol0) with an expensive toy. I would want to be prepared because now I am suddenly getting asked to stuff on THF just because of the mandau even at the expense of putting a less geared mage in my spot for the novelty. (If they only let me melee on RDM, I can still mercy stroke AND refresh npnp. /dies in flames)


tl;dr: If Melphina says skadi is a difference maker, I don't know if I trust the people telling me it has no use. pls send hlep- do I need it all? some? gtfo?
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#6 Sep 14 2009 at 11:40 AM Rating: Excellent
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In response to your post Cari, with a Mandau and Mercy Stroke you gear for as much strength / attack as you can. Accuracy is never an issue because sa/ta makes all hits land so you just beef up damage. The forager's/cerby +1 is one of the pieces that adds both str and attack, and the hecatob subligar is so much attack that even without str it's the best choice for ta or sa mercy. The other pieces are pretty straightforward. Head would be heca, earring would be a triumph and brutal (Yes brual, ALWAYS brutal for the double attack), neck is a soil gorget , body heca, rings rajas/flame, waist warwolf and feet heca.

However the hands are an exception to this trend. The skadi's bazubands offer 5 str which is only 3 less than heca gloves +1. They add 10 attack as well. Since mercy stroke can't miss the 5 agility on them will compensate for any lackings in a TA + mercy stroke, and they will be stronger on the fiist hit without question. In fact, if you only lose 1 str tier they add 2 MORE base damage PLUS the attack. Without an fTP bonus on offhand/extra swings the attack of the skadi's bazubands keeps it well ahead of the closest competition.

If you don't have a mandau I already touched upon the other parts of skadi's. The bazubands are a stronger choice for a trick attack + multi hit but not a TA shark bite or mandallic stab, solo anything, or sneak attack stacked weaponskill. Even though noodles argues the haste versus slow aspect of a solo critical, they're lacking of any slow and very close to the annm dragon mitts. They make a wonderful solo sa piece.

Quote:
Blaaaaah.... I have been lectured about 18 times by various ppl that "skadi's is **** for Mandau don't even bother except for the feet if you don't have trotter's". (I don't, so I am.) Even tho I was asking about the pants for tp set etc, just nonono not w/ that dagger.


Everything is always situational. When you venture into the realm of much stronger targets simple math and number crunching breaks down slightly and gives way to a greater emphasis on playstyle and game mechanics. If you're in a burn scenario the set isn't going to be very good in full, but even then the body is THE dancing edge piece (strong any weaponskill really), the legs are THE TP piece (mandau or not, you would use the legs), feet is awesome utility. The addendum of the hands and head for solo crits and a bit more just fleshes out the utility of the set for various reasons. You will always be able to use any of the pieces of skadi's for SOMETHING optimal, and when you have all 5 it allows for versatility on a few targets where attack/crits are weighted more. That doesn't mean you HAVE to use them even if you have them. Some hnm targets ARE better to go full haste, but you know what you do then? You gear swap into full haste if that's the case.... simple eh? Versatility is the key. Just because you CAN wear something doesn't mean you HAVE to. But in a scenario where it would be beneficial to do so you can't very well equip what you don't own, now can you?

This is a rehash of what I already posted, but it emphasizes that "general knowledge" and "everybody telling you something" doesn't always mean it's going to be completely accurate. Generalizing the pieces the hands and head are overall less useful than some. But less useful does NOT equate to useless, and given that fact they all hold a place for a good thief.

Edited, Sep 14th 2009 3:57pm by Melphina
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#7 Sep 14 2009 at 11:43 AM Rating: Decent
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That's funny, iirc skadi pants shaves 2 rounds off for Mandau/X's.

I'll take a look at that Monsieur. To be fair, I posted that here and never looked at the thread again (haven't /yet/; obviously been meanin to). Nobody else on BG, KI, or lj called this out. That's going to be irritating to change if you are indeed correct as you say. Well..might not be that bad to edit.

Also again Cairstiona. Tell your friends they're just retarded and don't know how to play thf well. Quote this forum, quote my name, or quote something. Skadi mask is 2nd best sa/ta head in the game, and solo sa/ta's only become obsolete post-mandau if you play like garbage. Body is amazing for (unstacked) de/ev, and again this is not obsolte post-mandau. Hands, ta+mercy as stated, and solo sa. Legs, TP (TP TP TP). Feet, the white-box version of striders (I would consider it the least marginally useful skadi piece now). All of these pieces have use and there's 0% chance that your friends are correct.
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#8 Sep 14 2009 at 11:51 AM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
That's funny, iirc skadi pants shaves 2 rounds off for Mandau/X's.


What Shamaya just said sums it up well. If anybody EVER tells you that a mandau thief won't get any use out of skadi's go smack them and disregard their further comments on the matter. Skadi's Chausses is THE TP leg for any weapon combo on thief PERIOD, ESPECIALLY mandau (cause of mercy strokes ungodly reliable power). Homam is GOOD, homam is VERY STRONG, homam is AWESOME. Skadi's is just better is all. If but nothing else, know this. Skadi's Chausses >>> homam or any other alternative for a tp set no matter what.

With dancing edge there is nothing that will touch the skadi's cuirie in any circumstance no matter what, PERIOD. 8 dex, 8 agi, 8 chr, 10 accuracy + 5 attack. No matter what you fight, no other body will match this in dancing edge.

To avoid becoming a broken record I'm going to cut this short right here. Anybody that says skadi's is useless for a thief is not worth listening to. It IS an end game set after all, it will always have a practical use somewhere. I've listed the lesser well known features already, so I don't have to keep doing it. I'm sure we get it by now.

Edited, Sep 14th 2009 3:53pm by Melphina
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#9 Sep 14 2009 at 2:16 PM Rating: Decent
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Thanks for confirming what I was thinking since almost a year. Homam for TP burning and skadi's for others HNMs. It feels good to not be laughed at now :D

I'm just not sure in that SA + multi hit situation where you say skadi's hands is better than hecatomb. Is the 10 attack enough to counter the loss of 4 DEX? Especially in a bard situation with minuets involved?

Or is it one of thos situational things, like "skadi's without brd, hecatomb with one"?

Aren't enkidu mittens better for solo sneak attack too?

I'm getting a little confused now.
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#10 Sep 14 2009 at 2:23 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
I'm just not sure in that SA + multi hit situation where you say skadi's hands is better than hecatomb. Is the 10 attack enough to counter the loss of 4 DEX? Especially in a bard situation with minuets involved?


I think you misread. I said that the skadi's bazubands was a better choice for trick attack + multi hit weaponskill. I also said it was NOT better for sneak attack weaponskill.

I wrote
Quote:
The second use of these is to couple them with a trick attack + Multi hit weaponskill. They aren't better than AF +1 in non multi hit or a SA + WS, but in TA + dancing edge they ARE the best, and in TA + evisc I would still go with them.


and in my next post I also wrote

Quote:
If you don't have a mandau I already touched upon the other parts of skadi's. The bazubands are a stronger choice for a trick attack + multi hit but not a TA shark bite or mandallic stab, solo anything, or sneak attack stacked weaponskill.

They aren't better than hecatomb in a sneak attack + ANY weaponskill, multi hit or not. They're also inferior to hecatomb in a solo weaponskill. But in a trick attack multi hit weaponskill they're better by a few percent because in addition to the large boost of attack and the 5 str it also adds 5 agility, and that's enough to overcome the gap and then some. For a sneak attack + multi hit weaponskill (or a solo multi hit weaponskill!!) I'd put Enkidu's Mittens at the top. In sneak attack + shark bite/mandallic stab/mercy stroke the strongest choice is the hecatomb +1 followed by hecatomb and then enkidu's. But in a Trick attack + multi hit the skadi's bazubands eek out the win.

Edited, Sep 14th 2009 9:29pm by Melphina
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#11 Sep 14 2009 at 3:02 PM Rating: Good
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Please forgive me for posting immediately after my previous, but this is a different enough thought line to warrent its own post.

Quote:
Thanks for confirming what I was thinking since almost a year. Homam for TP burning and skadi's for others HNMs. It feels good to not be laughed at now :D


It's not a hard cut rule, but generally speaking the skadi's set is a viable build for many HNM type targets (alliance AND party oriented). When you're fighting something level 85-90++ it's going to have a large hp pool ranging in the tends of thousands, and it will have the potential to last a while while dishing out some punishment to you. In this scenario hitting for more damage on each swing is more of a concern and dagger DoT on these guys isn't exactly stellar. The set offers 12 dexterity, 30 attack, 25 accuracy, 8 strength and 5% crit rate as a bonus, plus run speed. That's NOT oriented to tp burn, but on god type stuff it's right at home and that's not bad at all.

I'm tinkering with a slightly unorthodox tp setup for targets of this nature and so far it's yielded a fair degree of success. This is an experimental build that I want to spend some more time with, especially after finishing my visor to see the full potential. As such I have no final verdict on my thoughts untiil I get to spend some more time with it.
Quote:

X's knife, viking shield as /war or blau as /nin ---- fire bomblet

Voyager Sallet, love torque, brutal + hollow earrings (I'm playing around with pixie as a test)

skadi's cuirie, skadi's bazubands, thunder ring, rajas ring

Forager's mantle, cuchulain's belt, skadi's chausses, skadi's jambeaux

Food === marinara pizza +1 due to the accuracy light and dex/attack heavy nature of this set.



Notes of interest:

I've reduced a lot of my haste (almost all) in favor of attack and dex with a side of strength, and draw upon marinara pizza +1 to land the hits. The voyager sallet will be replaced by skadi's visor as the final piece when I get it. What's of particular interest is that I've broken the norm and gone into the taboo and added dex where you normally should not (It has cuchulain's belt and thunder ring in melee). Still, despite all this it's performed pretty well. The increase in criticals is noticeable enough to grant a steady source of semi-reliable damage, and I'm able to weaponskill just as often as I ever was in full haste. It's something I want to test out some more and tweak, but my dex in melee here is around the 120 mark and that's enough to raise crit rate on most of my targets by a lot. I also added a large chunk of attack with the skadi's and cuchulain's belt to keep the 0's to a minimum/nonexistance (on gods you can always use more attack, you'll NEVER get it so high you can foresake it). It's nice to be a mithra in trying this out as well, and the x's knife just amplifies it further, but it's shown some promise.

Again, I'm reiterating that I have no final verdict on my opinion of a build of this nature. It's certainly NOT going to perform well in a burn scenario, but on much higher level targets I've been surprisingly pleased with the results. This is just another example of how thinking outside the box can yield unexpected and surprisingly pleasant results. Just think of what it would be like to have capped or near capped critical hit rate on HNMs with the cap raised to 29% due to the set bonus. Then add the x's knife. I'll play around with it more when I get a chance, but it definitely re sparked my desire to finish my skadi's set in full.

Edited, Sep 14th 2009 9:31pm by Melphina
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#12 Sep 14 2009 at 3:09 PM Rating: Decent
I <3 you guys, rly I do. Ty for the leg to stand on, since I don't get into the math I didn't have a rebuttal before when ppl who had been THF way longer than I am and are friends were telling me stuff. I don't feel the need to call them out necessarily (but I will refer them to you if they give me a hard time haha), it's enough to know I am doing the right thing.

If it comes up I will collect more pieces, they free lot fairly often between both groups I go with because of things that drop multiple pieces we are farming for people. I have had morrigan shoes mained in 4 groups since salvage came out and still 1/3, but my cup runneth over with everything I -don't- comment no problem. :P

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#13 Sep 14 2009 at 3:19 PM Rating: Good
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Oh on that note cair since I didn't explicitly say it earlier: You WILL want to go for your missing hecatomb pieces if possible. The hecatomb set is to this day one of our strongest options for using, and that will never change. ALL of those pieces are useful, and lacking alternatives are a worthy addition. If you get an opportunity to go for more hecatomb do it!! The skadi's set and the hecatomb set are two different lines of gear that serve different functions, but BOTH of them are powerful, and all 10 of the pieces (combined) are desirable no matter what level your thief is at. Hecatomb and skadi's are among the few sets that EVERY piece is awesome. Simply put, there is no such thing as a BAD piece of hecatomb or skadi's. S-E did those two sets right.

Yes, there are alternatives for many pieces. Heca harness will be outdone in dancing edge by skadi's and a dragon harness (normal quality) in sa + shark bite or mandalic stab, skadi's bazubands are outdone in sa ws by enkidu, and etc etc. But no matter what, it's very strong gear and always among the best. Having any of them will never be a bad thing. That's something that can't be said about other abjuration sets. Look at earthen hands for example (that's all I have to say to make my point).

Edited, Sep 14th 2009 7:21pm by Melphina
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#14 Sep 14 2009 at 4:44 PM Rating: Decent
Oh yea definitely, but wasn't going to waste a lot of resources on something to stand in town looking pretty at this time. I have too many other serious upgrades I want to make to divide myself further than I already have and salvage bodies are a major commitment (already did ares's cuirass from lolfreelot pieces and it slowed down my mandau knowingly but I do love my baby dragon, just can't tell her no).

Was pondering that just because I -have- mercy stroke doesn't mean on a weaker mob a DE might not do more damage as well and make the cuirie more rational for me to have. The after effect is short and doesn't always produce crits as it is still a %, but so situational I will have to mess around with lolibris and see what I think. (Feel free to insert math treatise at will, I like to look at them even when I don't totally "get" them but I am totally happy to wander around killing them either way.)
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#15 Sep 14 2009 at 6:26 PM Rating: Decent
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From a BG Thread
Kirschy wrote:
(Note: Slow on equipment works as negative haste. Slow from spells/TPs appear to be calculated as seperate terms, but there is still testing to be done.)

I was going to PM Kirschy, but there it is in plain sight after a cursory glance on BG. I never looked to deeply into Kirschy's previous takes on slow, and it looks like the sources I was relying on were unreliable after all. It's funny, because slow was generally thought of as -haste for years; that was the original position. Though to be fair it seems to only be so for equip. Anyway this will have a significant impact on my sa/ta project/investigation. I'll be sure to edit it as soon as I can, but it will take some work. Thx for the red flag monsieur.
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#16 Sep 14 2009 at 8:44 PM Rating: Decent
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I hope you enjoy the weapon, Cair :3. It is surely a different playstyle.

Back in the day, you'd only ever WS with sa/ta, and never without. Then after a time (and still today), the traditional accepted method of burn dp'sing is stacking sa/ta and WS only when convenient, and simply using the ja's and ws as soon as you can (when timers come up; or when you have tp). For mandau, I frequently hear quoted that you will rarely if ever use solo sa/ta's or use WS's other than mercy stroke. This is the main bridge between poor and good mandau thieves (a very large gap). It's a little more frustrating to play than the traditional burn style. The main difference is that the buffer of "holding" is higher. Whereas with blau/sirocco,etc, you might be willing to wait ~5 seconds for your ja timer after you have TP, for mercy stroke it's worth it to wait longer. But it doesn't mean you should wait 15 seconds on your ja timer. This is where you do an unstacked weaponskill. And for unstacked, evisceration/de > mercy. So you'll need a completely different set of gear for it. To be clear, when stacked sa/ta+MS is always > sa/ta+DE. Unstacked, it's the inverse.

Also, Soil Gorget is basically all you need for mercy. However, there are other necks potentially as good or better (very marginal). I myself use justice (even w/ no fStr tiering).

I'm usually a skeptical obsessive compulsive worry-wart, melph. So for some comparisons I find it hard to say anything without using full formulas. Even though I was thinking the same for skadi hands knew heca+1 legs > enkidu's, I played with some numbers to get the right idea,
Quote:
pdif avg reminder
0.8333 < x < 1.25
(x*1.2) + (x*1.2 - 0.5) / 2 = y
(2.4x - 0.5)/2 = y

settings: mandau/x's mithra thf, 5str merits, /nin v. 82.gcolibri, no buff

heca+1 hand + heca +1 leg
67(str)/2 + 200 + 76 + 62(str)/2 + 69 = 409.5atk
pdif = 0.833

((39 + 12 + 63)3ftp + 76agi)*0.833pdif + 1)*1.1x's +
(34 + 11 + 63)*pdif*1.24 +
(39 + 12 + 63)*pdif*0.24
= 842.8 + 111.6 + 22.8 = 977.2

skadi bazubands (+heca+1 leg)
67(str)/2 + 200 + 76 + 59(str)/2 + 79 = 418atk
pdif = 0.864

((39 + 12 + 62)3ftp + 81agi)*0.864pdif + 1)*1.1x's +
(34 + 11 + 62)*pdif*1.24 +
(39 + 12 + 62)*pdif*0.24
= 861.2 + 114.6 + 23.4 = 999.2

enkidu's leg (+heca+1 hand)
67(str)/2 + 200 + 76 + 66(str)/2 + 47 = 389.5atk
pdif = 0.759

((39 + 12 + 65)3ftp + 76agi)*0.759pdif + 1)*1.1x's +
(34 + 11 + 65)*pdif*1.24 +
(39 + 12 + 65)*pdif*0.24
= 820.4 + 103.5 + 21.1 = 945.0

Seeing this, I am kinda hungering for those skadi bazubands now >,<, so I can plant that much more hate to kill mah friends that much faster :3. Everyone's got a diff style of calc'ing. I prefer to leave my wsc in decimals (not done here) as well as atk values and total dmg. I do this since usually ppl are looking for a more general comparison rather than between two gearsets specifically. I also like to use pDif 'averages' (more accurately, midpoint) and xHit averages for WS (here, mercy/nin is 2.48 hits avg). For X's, from my own sampling I still think it's more likely that it's a straight 10%(+?) boost rather than a straight addition of 0.x to pDif.
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#17 Sep 14 2009 at 9:00 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Seeing this, I am kinda hungering for those skadi bazubands now >,<, so I can plant that much more hate to kill mah friends that much faster :3


Smiley: lol

You finally ran the numbers eh? I played with full formulas similar to that as well. I just omitted them because I didn't want to make this thread a formulacraft +1 as many of my others were, and a simple explination of the mechanics was enough in this case. The results you just got were right in line with my own calculations on a trick attack + mercy stroke, and no matter how you slice it the skadi's bazubands are a few percent stronger than the hecatomb mittens +1.

I did omit the concept of an fSTR tier when considering str tiers (I only considered wsc tiers), but this still won't be enough to change the verdict. Mandau caps its fSTR bonus on silly little lobibri already with just 111 strength. In a traditional mercy stroke set a mithra is capable of achieving ~~ 125 str easy without touching high quality hecatomb or cerby +1 (merits and food included though). Other races such as elvaans and galka and even hume just go higher and higher. While some HNM targets will see a reduction of an fSTR by changing heca to skadi's, I'm sure most won't. And most everyday targets sure as **** won't because you're going to be overshooting the fSTR cap as far as possible ANYWAY because of the fTP bonus, and average mobs will never have that kind of vitality power. In other words, fSTR + 12 is a given so long as you don't suck. But even if you lost THAT tier as well, skadi's is still ahead in TA Mercy. In your calculation had you lost an fSTR tier from swapping hands it would have resulted in 3 base damage x pDIF less, which no matter what caps at 9 damage at maximum pDIF (You won't have maximum pDIF) thus Still favoring the skadi's. And again, this almost never happens because of how easily fSTR caps when you play with a proper mercy stroke set.

Considering all of the above ... it just gives even more power to the skadi's bazubands in a trick attack + mercy stroke Smiley: nod


Edited, Sep 15th 2009 1:11am by Melphina
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#18 Sep 14 2009 at 9:23 PM Rating: Decent
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Mistress Melphina wrote:
neck is a soil gorget


Is fTP+0.1 better than a Kubira Bead Necklace (STR+4 DEX+4) on Mercy Stroke?

Edited, Sep 15th 2009 2:23am by Lobivopis
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I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#19 Sep 14 2009 at 9:41 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Also, Soil Gorget is basically all you need for mercy. However, there are other necks potentially as good or better (very marginal). I myself use justice (even w/ no fStr tiering).
Enjoy :D

Edited, Sep 15th 2009 5:41am by Shamaya
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#20 Sep 15 2009 at 3:30 AM Rating: Decent
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Shamaya wrote:
That's funny, iirc skadi pants shaves 2 rounds off for Mandau/X's.

I'll take a look at that Monsieur. To be fair, I posted that here and never looked at the thread again (haven't /yet/; obviously been meanin to). Nobody else on BG, KI, or lj called this out. That's going to be irritating to change if you are indeed correct as you say. Well..might not be that bad to edit.

Also again Cairstiona. Tell your friends they're just retarded and don't know how to play thf well. Quote this forum, quote my name, or quote something. Skadi mask is 2nd best sa/ta head in the game, and solo sa/ta's only become obsolete post-mandau if you play like garbage. Body is amazing for (unstacked) de/ev, and again this is not obsolte post-mandau. Hands, ta+mercy as stated, and solo sa. Legs, TP (TP TP TP). Feet, the white-box version of striders (I would consider it the least marginally useful skadi piece now). All of these pieces have use and there's 0% chance that your friends are correct.

It was brought up when I made a similar post asking the worth of heca vs enkidu/other options due to the slow.
The general view went "screw heca, use enkidu" "kirschy 's lj says this" "oh, looks like heca wins now".

I'm still not completely confident in the worth of all these miniscule haste comparisons anyway. Considering your delay resets when you auto-target a new mob. If all players get 1% haste, then the mob will die x% faster, sure, but if you get 1% haste and the others dont, then unless it gives you an extra round, it's done nothing. Delay does reset when you auto-target the next mob, it is very easy to test.
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#21 Sep 15 2009 at 3:55 AM Rating: Decent
Wow, have ppl lined up for yovra farming, but have been using the kubira because ichor I already had. Will still go of course but won't trample over ppl to get my organ I spose lol.

And ffs@ ppl calling you a loot **** when how many hours of slavish events do we all suffer through. ~.~ I suffered thru so much on RDM n BRD when everyone else was having the fun poking stuff I changed my mind about that type of altruism loooooong ago. If I want it and have points/ seniority/ popset/ whatever the group goes by, too bad for the guy who joined last Tuesday even if I never go on that job. :P

O btw, what about the croc neck? I got one of those a few weeks ago cause I was doing ALL fkn campaign ALL the fkn time.

Edited, Sep 15th 2009 7:59am by Cairstiona

And herro turning this into my own "Dear ppl I read but rarely talk to" thread, sry Melphina and ty all for not hating me for my incessant questions.

Edited, Sep 15th 2009 8:00am by Cairstiona
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#22 Sep 15 2009 at 4:14 AM Rating: Decent
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There still pops up a debate sometimes, whether bits of stats (namely haste) make a difference. There's an ares-loving drg I know that refuses to use much haste due to this. Flat out black-balling haste sets is an extreme (he's actually a surprisingly good drg in many ways), but to a much smaller extreme is questioning haste in general.

What it all comes down to is probability. No matter how small the %, there's a probability that it will equate to getting the last hit on the mob or, rather, producing a whole extra hit (or round of hits). Of course, you may be literally 1 delay away from striking the mob (1/60th of a second), leaving you with excess delay, and rendering your extra points of haste having done nothing for that fight. But there are times where you'll deal the final blow; even times when you'll deal the final blow and everyone else has a lot of delay left on the countdown for their swings, killing the mob a second or seconds faster. And there are times where you'll be 10 delay from striking, or 80 delay, etc etc. All probability, meaning that over time the effects of haste are very real. I know what you mean by autotarget, but the above accounts for why it shouldn't matter.

W/ Kirschy's junk, yeah my sources were just bad -.- I saw sources that said otherwise, but they were older. I didn't think to double check on it. No matter though. I'm eager to make the edits but I'm not sure how soon I'll have time.

Edited, Sep 15th 2009 12:15pm by Shamaya
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#23 Sep 15 2009 at 6:01 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Is fTP+0.1 better than a Kubira Bead Necklace (STR+4 DEX+4) on Mercy Stroke?


With an example mercy stroke build of heca, gorget, triumph, bruutal, heca, heca, rajas, flame, forrager's, warwolf, heca, heca as a gearset (none of the heca high quality) you'll end up with + 53 str in gear. Using my own character with 5 str merits and a str + 5 meat food would give me this

62 (base) + 5 (merits) + 5 (food) + 53 (gear) == 125. I'll be able to go a tad higher because I have HQ heca. Taru have 2 str less than mithra so 123 str is the low end on what a mandau thief woudld ever be capable of getting (generally speaking, when you have mandau those pieces are attainable even if you don't start with them immediately upon getting relic).

wsc is 123 x 0.6 == 73
73 x 0.83 (alpha) == 60

using the fSTR of 12 and assuming capped fSTR (123 will overshoot lolibri by 12, so it's gonna cap most stuff)

( 39 + 12 + 60) == 111 base damage. 111 x fTP of 3.0 == 333 base damage

Now with a soil gorget that fTP is 3.1

111 x 3.1 == 344

Base damage increase of 11

The kuibira bead necklace would have raised base damage on a SA Mercy by ~~~ 10 but would have raised attack bt 2 as well. It will also raise multi procs by 2 base damage from wsc carrying over. So yes, the kuibira bead necklace would be a superior choice in a SA Mercy stroke. Trick attack Mercy stroke is a little bit more iffy because multi procs don't always happen, but if you /nin again, yeah it's probably gonna be pretty darn close.

Summary: Soil Gorget and Kuibira bead necklace are really close in a TA Mercy stroke, that's fine. In a SA Mercy kuibira will probably beat out the gorget.

Btw, I ran some numbers with a slightly more powerful mercy stroke set (and other races) and the results are still going to be the same. The gorget doesn't get much more oomph with elvaan like str and hq heca than without because it's a relatively small multiplier of base D which doesn't change much as opposed to adding base D and going through the full fTP bonus (it'll add about 1 more damage). Kuibira, soil, and justice torque are all great choices. I'll probably choose the kuibira for my own build one day because I like the 2 attack. All 3 choices are workable though.

Edited, Sep 15th 2009 10:13am by Melphina
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#24 Sep 15 2009 at 9:53 AM Rating: Decent
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Same results I got. Kubira was most convincingly ahead for sa+mercy. Either way, all necks compared were very close. In my comparison on lj, I didn't include acc. This could well be enough to push gorget ahead of, say, justice torque actually. In which case, most people should want to stick with soil gorget, probably. However, if you're like me, you also use justice torque for your feint set. So if you do already have justice, using soil is a bit inventory -1.
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#25 Sep 15 2009 at 12:43 PM Rating: Default
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Just to point out, in my above post I missed the reply where you cited kirschy saying gear slow works as -haste, and spell/other slow as a seperate entity.

I wasn't ignoring you, I just missed the post lol. That's good to know. My SA set currently has 13% slow and my TA set 7% haste...
I'll probably just go the heca route for dmg over speed in the end, I don't intend on min/maxing my thf for merit perfection. As much as it pains me, it will likely continue to act mainly when TH is needed, than when a DD is needed :/
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#26 Sep 16 2009 at 10:55 AM Rating: Decent
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Always was a fan of the Skadi. The reason was purely for looks. I was never much into the math, but I did parse all the time and I got the impression that it was roughly equal to other options. Mandau puts you so far ahead of the curve you are already outparsing everyone else by 50-100% anyway. I wasn't too obsessed with the idea that I could be doing 0.5% better with other gear.

Never did get the hands though. Went 4/5 on the other pieces and then gave up after going ~0/100 on the Freya hands. At some point I had learned the set bonus was only 5%, which I was disapointed in, and was just trying to 'complete the set'. My intent was to put them on a mannequin and forget about them, but from the math the mistress shows, it looks like that would have been a mistake.

I heards they upped the Silver Seas drop rate a while back. Did that help at all?
#27 Sep 16 2009 at 8:27 PM Rating: Decent
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Probably, but I've still never seen hammerblow drop anything.

Exp w/ some better DD's!
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