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Not your same old ACPFollow

#1 Sep 12 2009 at 8:24 AM Rating: Good
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So, we all know that ACP is the new Homam+1 for most every thf these days. Fstr, acc, DW that doesnt lower your TP/hit=3.9% more DOT and TP gain with Blau/Sir, X/Blau and most every awesome dagger combo (forgot if it works for mandau and not gonna check at this second :P)

Ive been spamming Fane daggers for the magical D6, Acc9, TA+2 (no dice yet), so i ran the numbers for my gear etc with my magical Fane/blau. Fane/Blau with suppa=4.7TP/hit. With ACP acc/DW its 4.6.....ouch.

So, anyway with my calcs, I compared my current set but added my fane and ran it with Corazza, acc/DW, and acc/atk mirkes.

Turns out that with the hit to TP, Corazza vs DW mirke=corazza ~3.3% more TP, but ~4% less DoT.

Haub vs DW is both TP gain and DoT are LESS than 1% away from each other. Haub WINS TP by some 0.1%, but looses DoT by some 0.15%. Virtually identical.

BUT, haub could be used when not /nin, and gets the side bonus of being useful for other jobs i dont care about much :P (had a 66 mnk for like 7 months xD)

Basically, I do not have mirke yet due to lots of reasons, but now that fane exists and that is my ultimate plan for my "standard" /nin set, I am re-evaluating the mirke and it seems pretty bleh since fane has the misfortune of loosing TP/hit with it on making mike a general wash with haub and corazza.

If using Fane, wtf is a thf to do? Keep corazza and know im loosing probably less than 1% damage? Get a DW mirke anyway and enjoy my overall sidegrade? Get the haub version and just use it on other jobs? Say ***** it and wait till i level pld one day and get Fast cast+enmity?

Thoughts?

Edited, Sep 12th 2009 4:57pm by Banalaty
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#2 Sep 12 2009 at 12:12 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Fane/Blau with suppa=4.7TP/hit. With ACP acc/DW its 4.6.....ouch.

Can you mention your current tp set?

I am guessing you missing skadi legs? If so get acc/DW mirke anyway. At some point in time you will get skadi legs and have the best of both. acc/DW mirke is just the best tp body for thf when /nin. If you want the best of the best get acc/DW mirke. If not nobody will laugh at you when you sporting homam body.

#3 Sep 12 2009 at 1:03 PM Rating: Good
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Oh lol forgot to mention 4.7, 4.6 is the base TP per dagger just from delay/DW. STP is all based on that number, so raja/brutal/skadi etc all give more TP based on this number. So if you have the same gear, you will still get less TP with fane/blau in acc/DW mirke than something else per hit.

Dont think the gear matters to much but:
Blau/Sir (till fane some day)
Bomblet
Turban (need to buy moogle exp sometime ><)
Love torque
Brutal/Suppa (Brutal is always Ear1 dangint!)
Corazza
Homam Hands
Raja/Toreador's
Foragers
Swift
Skadi legs
Homam Feet

Just seems that once you loose the huge TP bonus, its just yet another good DPS piece and solid TP piece and falls right in with Corazza and Haub Mirke. Hard to justify the most unique body in the game to be a sidegrade bordering on ~1% total boost to TP set that is ONLY good for Thf/nin when corazza and haub both perform virtually identically for any sub or job that can wear them. :S
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#4 Sep 12 2009 at 1:34 PM Rating: Decent
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4.7TP/Hit is 22 hits to 100% TP.
4.6TP/Hit is also 22 hits to 100% TP.

The DW on mirke may give you technically less TP/round, but if it doesn't affect how many hits it takes to get to 100% TP (hits, not rounds), then who cares

Edited, Sep 12th 2009 9:55pm by Noodles
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#5 Sep 12 2009 at 2:23 PM Rating: Excellent
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Technically with skadi/raja/brutal,
With DW:5.3tp=19 hit to 100
Without:5.1tp=20 hit to 100

But that is completely beside the point.

Should you miss 1/20 hit (acc cap 95%=1/20 miss) then BAM that 19 hit is ideal as 1 miss would make the 5.1 need 22 hits from a whole extra DW round. Then theres SA/TA not in mirke or skadis. Then theres WS which can be anywhere from 5-15TP in 1tp increments. Then theres the double/triples, stray hits, blah blah blah.

I thought we went over this. Xhit on thf is completely rediculous because our TP gain is far to random to count on in such a measured way. You miss. You get variable TP returns from WS. You get double/triple attacks. Compound these probelms because we DW. You get feather tickled. You do SA/TA rounds in different non stp gear that may or may not double/triple and a billion other factors that influence our TP over time. So over time the increased TP gain will come out in the average. You will avg more WS with 5.3 TP/hit than with 5.1 if the delays the same no matter wht the "X hit" build is because X hits dont work for us. My current 5tp/hit with blau/sirocco can be quite annoying as DE/Evis usually leave me with 13-14 TP getting me stuck at 98-99 a lot. 5tp/hit doesnt mean 20 hit build. Its more accurate to look at the rate of TP gain instead of how many hits to get to 100 on thf.

___________________

Anyway, the problem is worsened because with skadi/raja/brutal the rounding MUCH favors the 4.7TP. 4.7 vs 4.6 is only a 2.2% decrease in TP/hit. But, due to more rounding in the STP calc using 13stp (skadi/raja/brutal), it ends up as 5.3 vs 5.1 which is a 3.9% decrease in TP/hit. Now, 3% DW increases attack speed by....3.9%.

This is why for my build, the Haub mike actually gets the same TP than Acc/DW. The speed basically cancels out the drop in TP gain to be a net gain of nothing. Fane/blau is just in a very good place with TP calculations and DW dropps it just under all the favorable rounding.




Edited, Sep 12th 2009 6:30pm by Banalaty
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#6 Sep 12 2009 at 3:44 PM Rating: Good
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I didn't feel like paying 10 dollars for a piece of gear, so I'll stick with my homam corazza. Smiley: tongue
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#7 Sep 12 2009 at 3:57 PM Rating: Decent
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If it took you a month or more to get your Homam, then you did anyway =( lol
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#8 Sep 13 2009 at 2:49 AM Rating: Default
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Banalaty wrote:
Anyway, the problem is worsened because with skadi/raja/brutal the rounding MUCH favors the 4.7TP. 4.7 vs 4.6 is only a 2.2% decrease in TP/hit. But, due to more rounding in the STP calc using 13stp (skadi/raja/brutal), it ends up as 5.3 vs 5.1 which is a 3.9% decrease in TP/hit. Now, 3% DW increases attack speed by....3.9%.

So it decreases TP per hit by 3.9%, yet you in the same post have stated that the number of rounds doesn't matter due to all the different outside factors.

On paper it may be a loss of 3.9% TP/hit, but if it doesn't actually do anything, then it may aswell be 0% decrease.

Unless theres some other use for TP/hit apart from how many rounds it takes you to reach 100%TP that I'm missing...
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#9 Sep 13 2009 at 3:48 AM Rating: Good
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Noodles wrote:
4.7TP/Hit is 22 hits to 100% TP.
4.6TP/Hit is also 22 hits to 100% TP.


Finally, one that gets it!

I've been lurking the THF boards for some time, wondering when one of you would realize WS takes all your TP, not merely 100.
Page upon page of maths on these boards, all relying on "TP/hour", and thus all completely worthless.
#10 Sep 13 2009 at 8:52 AM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
Quote:
4.7TP/Hit is 22 hits to 100% TP.
4.6TP/Hit is also 22 hits to 100% TP.


Finally, one that gets it!


First off, yet again the 4.6/4,7 is not to be used for actual TP gain as it is then bumped up by your personal STP gear. In my case its +13 which, as said before is:
Quote:
Technically with skadi/raja/brutal,
With DW:5.3tp=19 hit to 100
Without:5.1tp=20 hit to 100


A) Your excluding STP.
B) Your excluding EVERYTHING that actually happens in game.

Do you SA in Skadi legs? Do you TA in Skadi OR rajas? Do you SA in suppa? Do you SA or TA in acc/DW mirke? Do you get differeing numbers on TP return on WS due to misses or DA/TA/overkill procs? Do you ever use more than 1 type of WS? Do you ever get feather tickled and have to start from zero, not WS TP return? Do you ever miss a hit while dual wielding of otherwise land an odd number of hits from 1 round due to DA, missing, triples messing up your imaginary 2 hits per round? Do you ever get hit or take aoe damage that gives TP?

Is anyone actually trying to say that all of these factors and more are irrelevant and that X hit build still works on Thf? Really?

X hit builds dont exist on thf. Thf/Nin has the MOST unrealiable TP gain of ANY job in this entire game. We get the least TP/Hit, We have the most unreliable multi hit WS in the game due to very high chances to DA/TA and lots of hits, and also poor acc compared to most melees for far more misses.

Thf does NOT get any use out of X hit builds because they:
1) Change out and into STP gear while meleeing (SA/TA)
2) WS give highly variable TP returns with missing and DA/TA
3) May get an even or odd number of hits to 100 because if you need 20 hits to 100 and miss one or DA one or miss+triple etc, now it will take you 22 hits, not 21 because you DW. And works vice versa. Therefore it can tip either way if you are comparing two Xhit builds because any multi hits or misses will keep swaying which would have landed on 100 and changes on every trip up to 100.

A sam that misses 1 hit still has an 6 hit build because no matter what it will be WS+5 hits, and doesnt matter when those 5 hits land. A thf comparing a 19hit to 20 hit is NOT always going to just be 10 attack rounds. Should any of the above happen and more, it could easily change to landing exactly 19 hits and the 19 hit build wins on one trip to 100 forcing the 20 hit build to take an entire extra round, 21 hits, to get 100. The next time it may be reversed and land right on 20 and they both are the same for that trip. Or you may triple attack both hands and go straight to 24 hits and overshoot them both. You CANT rely on an X hit build.

Quote:
Finally, one that gets it!

I've been lurking the THF boards for some time, wondering when one of you would realize WS takes all your TP, not merely 100.
Page upon page of maths on these boards, all relying on "TP/hour", and thus all completely worthless.


So you are saying that Theorycrafting doesnt work because it uses "abstract" ideas like TP/Hour and is therefore removed from the real game. Yet you are here saying that Xhit matters WITHOUT accounting for ANY variable that actually changes the result in game.

X hit builds are a poor way to measure TP gain because Thf is far to variable with TP. To many factors change it in game making you roll the dice on how many hits it will take to get to 100. If you have one set that gets TP FASTER, it will avg more WS over time regardless of X hit build or not. And all we really want is more WS.

Ill repeat:

Quote:
Is anyone actually trying to say that all of these factors and more are irrelevant and that X hit build still works on Thf? Really?

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#11 Sep 13 2009 at 10:14 AM Rating: Decent
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The TP/hour model is just as worthless as an Xhit one.

You're arguing in the above post that with all the STP, the DW mirke does lower the rounds you need, and then you say that it doesn't matter anyway. IT seems like you're contradicting yourself.

TP/hour is, however, a bad model. It's probably worse than Xhit scenarios. Xhit scenarios can have exceptions but will be generally be accurate most of the time. TP/hour is never accurate unless you're WSing at exactly 100TP each time.
For example if you get 104TP every 30seconds, then you'll have 12480TP/hour! That's 124 WSs! No it's not. You will lose 4TP every WS, as far as the calculation is concerned you're only making 100TP every 30secs, therefor you'll realistically have only 12000TP/hour or 120WSs.
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#12 Sep 13 2009 at 11:01 AM Rating: Decent
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I dont have Coraza yet, but the two ACP bodies seemed too close with their give and take for me to justify creating a body that would be inferior for anything not /nin. So I went Acc/Att.
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#13 Sep 13 2009 at 7:28 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
You're arguing in the above post that with all the STP, the DW mirke does lower the rounds you need, and then you say that it doesn't matter anyway. IT seems like you're contradicting yourself.


Me listing the X hits was just to point out that you guys were all using the wrong numbers ANYWAY with 4.7 and 4.6. I was showing how the STP affected TP gain and that the rounding is very harsh to a 23% DW setup with Fane/Blau. 4.7 to 4.6 is only a decrease of ~2.2% TP/hit. 5.3 to 5.1 is a 3.9% decrease. If it werent for the bad luck of getting screwed in the rounding this bad, it would not be an issue, but the fact remains that Mirke increases attack speed by 3.9%, but lowers overall TP gain by ~3.9%. Blau/X/Sirocco combos DO NOT have this problem because they maintain the same TP/hit so its just a straight increase in speed fo 3.9% for the same TP/hit=3.9% more DoT and 3.9% TP gain. It is only with both of these that it stomps all over any other body option. Drop the TP gain advantage and its just another equivalent top end body.
_________________________________________________

If you will notice, I have never used TP/hour/min/sec and then translated it directly into WS/hour/month/year. Thats not the way I do TP calcs for that very reason. I work with % increase and apply them to the ratio of Melee/SATA/WS splits (or in drg case Melee/Jump/WS ratios). It takes the known damage ratios (parsed from real parties with my exact playstyle) and I can apply changes in gear and how they would affect ME. Of course there are "standard" splits for most jobs that can be used, but I usually do them for me 1st and everyone else later :P. Such as this case of mirke with my gear and a Fane/Blau combo drastically messes up the TP gain advantage that most people would enjoy. If i didnt have skadi, it might change closer to that 2.2% drop which would be much better than 3.9% loss. Or if I used any other dagger combo. Or didnt have a suppa, or whatever.

In this case, droping from 5.3 to 5.1 is a 3.9% decrease. 3% DW on top of DWII and suppa is a 3.9% increase. Thus why in my spreadsheet that calculates TP/damage/WS damage etc when i plug in the numbers for haub mirke and compare to acc/DW mirke, their overall TP gain and DoT is virtually identical in the output.

I do calcs this way because over time, the average of anything will show its face. In a situation as random as Thf TP gain, the only constant is that Option A gains TP faster than Option B. So many factors will change it on any individual trip to 100 TP that measuring it by how it affects 1 trip (X hit builds) wont help you at all. So you look at the hyothetical infinite trials and in that, the % increase WILL be seen. Not X hits. Not Xtp/hour=X/WS hour. % increase.
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Lu Shangs-5/28/08
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Mandau-75: 3/9/2012

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Join 'People Against The Heart Snatcher' and help put Thfs on the right P.A.T.H.S. today!
#14 Sep 14 2009 at 3:57 AM Rating: Good
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Well I'm sorry but I still can't accept TP1/TP2 for Dot/TP gain decrease/increase model as a valid way of measureing.

The change in the amount of TP you gain per hit means absolutely nothing whatsoever at all if it doesn't change how quick it takes you to get to 100%TP (read: how many hits it takes). This is such an important fact that is completely ignored by your TP1/TP2% model.

You say counting hits to 100TP and all the rest is inaccurate due to all the outside factors, but I'm sorry it's still more accurate than what you're doing.

Take a non-DWing DD. Say they get 15.9 TP per hit, but then have this reduced to 15.5% by using a -3% delay item (hi sword strap). By your model that's a 2.58% decrease in TP gain! Oh no! However that 2.58% decrease will never ever actually do anything at all. As you lose all TP over 100, any excess you have when you WS is completely lost and completely irrelevant. Ending at 102 or 100 or 105 or 114 or any number between 100 and 100+[TP per hit-1] means completely nothing. You will never in this example have that 2.58% decrease. It's there on paper but will never do anything in practice.

Now you constantly state that using Xhit calulations is inaccurate because of all the outside factors such as TA procs, missing one hit in a DW attack round, and so on. And yes, this is true, but as I have said, what you're exampling are exceptions to the rule. In general it wil even out and be an accurate model. ****, you can even argue that if you take 10rounds/20hits then you will miss an average of one hit with 95% acc rate, gain one hit through 5% DA (brutal proc) and gain 2hits through 5% TA proc, which evens out as +1round and so doesn't actually effect an xhit scenario!

Now, yes, that is an ideal situation, but that is generally what will happen over time, and although there will be exceptions, this will be an accurate model for the majority of the time. Calculating % decrease in TP will not, because as I have said, and as others have also stated, if it doesn't affect how many rounds it takes to reach 100TP that time, then it will have had 0% effect on anything.

In short, % increase in TP gain/loss will never be accurate in practice, whereas Xhit comparisons will for the majority of the time. How you can argue it's a better means of measuring things, I don't know.
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#15 Sep 14 2009 at 3:38 PM Rating: Decent
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Any time i am not /nin, I would either want the more ACC of homam or acc is capped and i use rap.
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#16 Sep 14 2009 at 7:03 PM Rating: Excellent
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Noodles, its not JUST outside factors like DW+ missing a hit during TP. DE BY ITSELF destroys any X hit builds. We dont start from zero. We dont start from 10. We start from (most cases getting a 9.X base for 2 hits and +0-6 from other hits) anywhere from 4 to 15 TP for most dagger sets. Most "common" end TP results are (missing only 0-2 hits)

15=Full+Triple
14=Double or Triple+miss
13=full
12=miss one middle.
11=Triple and miss ofhand/main or just miss 2 middle
10=Double and miss offhand/main or Triple+miss a middle+offhand/main
9=miss offhand or main hand (more likely off hand due to acc bonus on 1st hit.)
8=Miss main/off and one middle.

And bajillions of other combinations. Wow only allowing a 2 miss option, we have ANYTHING between 8 and 15 TP and in 1 TP increments. How does that NOT @#%^ over any semblance of a planned X hit build. The spread for common DE returns is WIDER than the amount of TP we get per hit and is available in 1 TP increments. If option 1 gets to 100 in 18 hits and option 2 gets to 102 in 18 hits, DE ALONE will make those into different X hit builds every time you WS. You roll the /random dice every time you WS.

Sam doesnt have that problem. Drg doesnt. No 2 hander does because the TP spread from a WS is less than 1 hit so if you had a 6 hit before WS you have it after. WS cant affect your build. We have WS skewing our TP and a crapload of other junk. When combined with getting less tp/hit it means that it takes less to shift to or away from a specific X hit build than slow weapon jobs.

Thf needs less change to mess up a planned X hit due to lower TP/hit.

Thfs WS by nature (high number of hits and offhand hits) and combined with Double/Triple attacks and being blind as **** for less than stellar consistency compared to many jobs TP return all leads to WIDE WS TP return spreads beyond that of any other job. We can EASILY see anything from 8-15 only allowing for 2 misses in 1 tp increments.

THEN you add on all the other factors of hits, misses, DW, Changing out DW and STP gear for SA/TA, getting hit with mob atacks/aoes/tickles.

Thf has MORE junk changing our TP than 2hand jobs.


We arent sams. They have 4 options for TP return.

Whiff=6 hits to 100.
Hit=WS+5 hits.
Hit+DA=WS+5 hits and ~102 TP.
Whiff+DA= 6 hits=~102 TP.

No matter what they will land right on or near 100 TP every time. The ONLY Thing that can reliably mess up a build is Med. But i dont think they complain much since its jus an assload of free TP as it is and they have that JA to only use 100 TP to help ride that out some anyway.

If Drg got anything from 10-35 in 1 TP increments from Drakes, sure they would have to worry more about getting their 6 hits jacked up too. They dont.

With all the factors that will determing IF you will get that X hit build or not every time you TP up on Thf, you cant say, well this one gets 5TP/hit and this one 5.1 so they both need 20 hits (100 and 102 TP respectively). Because depending on your DE return, you will gain or loose a few TP. If you SA or TA with changes to STP for DW gear, it will shift you up or down a TP or 2. You may or may not land on the correct number of hits (ie 97 TP after a round and needing to wait another round of TWO hits to get the TP and you only need for ONE hit) You may get tickled and drop to zero (a number you will NEVER get from WS). You may get hi by mob TP/Attack/AOE (Hi to you 4 hit flurry with only 3 shadows). This sh*t goes on and on and ON.

Thf TP gain is FAR to unpredictable from EVERY aspect to ever use Xhits as a reliable means to measure anything. BUT, since you basically roll the /random dice every time you TP up weather or not you will land on a favorable or unfavorable amount of TP (how close to 100 you get without wasted TP) the results change constantly. What happens when something is random? The statistical average comes out over time. That would be the % gain in TP gained over time. If gear set 1 gets TP 10% faster than gear set 2, does it matter how many hits it takes? No. You will generate TP and roll the dice every 100 TP to see how close you get. But Option 1 will complete that process 10% faster.

Getting TP X% faster just gives you that same X% more shots at the random dice which means that over time you will get X% more rolls in your favor purely by rolling more often. End result is more WS for you. More death to the enemy.

Edited, Sep 14th 2009 11:04pm by Banalaty
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#17 Sep 14 2009 at 10:07 PM Rating: Decent
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If it took you a month or more to get your Homam, then you did anyway =( lol


Maybe if the only thing I ever did on the game was limbus. <.<;
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#18 Sep 15 2009 at 3:19 AM Rating: Good
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Did I ever say "Thf should use an Xhit build?" no. I said Xhit comparisons are a more accurate way to measure TP than x% increase/decrease. And they are.

I don't see how you can argue a formula that will occasionally be right, over one that will be occasionally wrong.

Besides, I'm fairly confident if your non-DW mirke was as worthwhile as you like to think then melph would be in here immidiatly bashing out numbers, as she always does if a new thought about gear options appears to have some merit.
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#19 Sep 15 2009 at 4:30 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:

A) Your excluding STP.


My excluding STP? No, yours!

Your failure at grammar 101 aside, how are we to know your TP build? We can't know how much Store TP you TP in unless you tell us...

Quote:

Is anyone actually trying to say that all of these factors and more are irrelevant and that X hit build still works on Thf? Really?

X hit builds dont exist on thf. Thf/Nin has the MOST unrealiable TP gain of ANY job in this entire game. We get the least TP/Hit, We have the most unreliable multi hit WS in the game due to very high chances to DA/TA and lots of hits, and also poor acc compared to most melees for far more misses.


Fine, they don't. We're not advocating hit builds, just correct TP calculations.

But tell me, if you don't believe in hit builds for THF, why do you TP in Store TP gear?
Brutal makes sense.
Rajas on a 1-hander makes sense, if and only if you're capping Accuracy with it.
Skadi Chausses don't make any sense.

Are you under the illusion that 1 Accuracy and 5 Attack beat 1% Haste? They don't.
If you don't believe in hit builds for THF (and I'm not saying you should), the Store TP is useless and Homam Cosciales are clearly superior.



You justify your absurd way of calculating TP by saying there are perturbating factors that make you hit 100TP at unreliable intervals?
No shit, that happens for everyone.

Most of them don't matter when comparing 2 builds. DA/TA/misses will, over time (i.e. on average), affect both builds similarily, so they're irrelevant.
SA and TA... they're regular hits, TP-wise.
You justify your weird logic by TPing in Skadi Chausses, and then you'll justify your Skadi Chausses with your weird logic. That's completely absurd.

Another THF might solo SA in Rajas, but not solo TA in it nor TP in it... great, he got .2TP bonus in that solo SA, compared to a regular hit.
It's meaningless.

Lastly, WS.
For any job, there are 2 possibilities: either it screws you out of the TP you needed for your hit build and you'll need one more round, or it doesn't.
Once again, that's largely irrelevant when comparing 2 builds, unless one packs a significant Accuracy difference with the other that factor will affect both builds in a similar fashion!

And even if you're not comparing 2 builds, calculating by the number of hits to 100TP is always a better approximation than your system, which accounts for TP that is wasted 80-90% of the time!
Better use a model that is right most of the time than one that is wrong most of the time.
#20 Sep 15 2009 at 4:41 AM Rating: Decent
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22,697 posts
Quote:
Fine, they don't. We're not advocating hit builds, just correct TP calculations.

But tell me, if you don't believe in hit builds for THF, why do you TP in Store TP gear?
Brutal makes sense.
Rajas on a 1-hander makes sense, if and only if you're capping Accuracy with it.
Skadi Chausses don't make any sense.

Are you under the illusion that 1 Accuracy and 5 Attack beat 1% Haste? They don't.
If you don't believe in hit builds for THF (and I'm not saying you should), the Store TP is useless and Homam Cosciales are clearly superior.


Yeeaahhh no. Not believing in hit builds doesn't mean believing faster tp gain is worthless too.
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#21 Sep 15 2009 at 3:27 PM Rating: Good
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2,270 posts
Quote:
Your failure at grammar 101 aside, how are we to know your TP build? We can't know how much Store TP you TP in unless you tell us...


Hmmm....That is an interesting point considering:
I, in the second reply wrote:
Blau/Sir (till fane some day)
Bomblet
Turban (need to buy moogle exp sometime ><)
Love torque
Brutal/Suppa (Brutal is always Ear1 dangint!)
Corazza
Homam Hands
Raja/Toreador's
Foragers
Swift
Skadi legs
Homam Feet


Also:
Banalty twice wrote:
With DW:5.3tp=19 hit to 100
Without:5.1tp=20 hit to 100

Quote:

But tell me, if you don't believe in hit builds for THF, why do you TP in Store TP gear?


Say what?
As to your ridiculous Skadi leg point, Noodles got it. This ENTIRE discussion is about how to MEASURE TP gain, not if I believe STP increases TP gain.
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Anyway, on topic.

OK, so lets for a moment agree to disagree.

Fact: With mirke DW and Fane/Blau I get 5.1 TP/hit with delay 277.97. 20 hit build.

Fact:With an Acc+anything else Mirke I get 5.3 TP/hit with delay 288.8. 19 hit build.

Which will gain TP faster. Faster but 20 hits, slower but 19 hit. As the TP is the only point of contention, it is easy to determine the differences between atk (haub mike), atk speed (DW mike) for the purposes of DoT leaving the TP gain as the deciding factor. Using my method, the TP is basically even steven. Would the result be any different with your proposed X hit method?

I get the fealing that both ways to mesure wont make much difference and leads to all tihs being a semantic debate about two methods that end up with the same result.
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Final side note:
Quote:
Besides, I'm fairly confident if your non-DW mirke was as worthwhile as you like to think then melph would be in here immidiatly bashing out numbers, as she always does if a new thought about gear options appears to have some merit.


2 things:
1:Im not really trying to say that Haub is "more" worthwhile than DW, just that in my poking around with this specific gear set, they seem to be identical making the worth of mirke (using said gear) questionable period.

2:While i have as much respect for Melphs opinions as most anyone else around here, a lack of a melph post doesnt automatically discredit a thought or idea. Fane wasnt around when the waves of mirke talk were going on.
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#22 Sep 15 2009 at 7:33 PM Rating: Good
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3,530 posts
Dread Lord Diamondis wrote:
If it took you a month or more to get your Homam, then you did anyway =( lol


Pay for a month of access to the game in which you can do whatever you want, which may entail getting a Homam, and certainly entails many, many others things



Pay $10 for a mini-expansion in which, after a few hours of questing and CS, you get one piece of high-end gear and likely rarely or never use what little re-doing of the final fight can be done before finishing forever

The point is that a monthly fee is not paying for an item, because there is an almost endless array of content to be experienced, and the fee is simply to access it. The case with the mini-expansion is different because it has a very limited lifetime and a finite endpoint, namely once you grab the gear a day or two after activating it.
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#23 Sep 16 2009 at 4:31 AM Rating: Decent
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6,580 posts
Benalty, have you considered not using Suppanomimi in your comparison? What would switching to Hollow Earring over Suppanomimi along with your non-DW mirke do?
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#24 Sep 16 2009 at 8:06 AM Rating: Decent
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1,064 posts
LordTrey wrote:
Any time i am not /nin, I would either want the more ACC of homam or acc is capped and i use rap.


I'd rather take 5 STR 5 Dex and 12 ATT over 3 acc in that situation (Usually hnms and such?).
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#25 Sep 16 2009 at 2:38 PM Rating: Good
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523 posts
I didn't seen any mention of it in this thread, but for the low, low cost of five dexterity (and probably some Zeni) you could use Enkidu's Harness and still keep the Dual-Wield/Accuracy version of Mirke. I think everyone kinda forgot about this piece after the mini-expansion first hit, but it is still a very viable option.
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