Not your same old ACPFollow

Can you mention your current tp set?

I am guessing you missing skadi legs? If so get acc/DW mirke anyway. At some point in time you will get skadi legs and have the best of both. acc/DW mirke is just the best tp body for thf when /nin. If you want the best of the best get acc/DW mirke. If not nobody will laugh at you when you sporting homam body.

4.7TP/Hit is 22 hits to 100% TP.
4.6TP/Hit is also 22 hits to 100% TP.

The DW on mirke may give you technically less TP/round, but if it doesn't affect how many hits it takes to get to 100% TP (hits, not rounds), then who cares

Edited, Sep 12th 2009 9:55pm by Noodles

I didn't feel like paying 10 dollars for a piece of gear, so I'll stick with my homam corazza.

So it decreases TP per hit by 3.9%, yet you in the same post have stated that the number of rounds doesn't matter due to all the different outside factors.

On paper it may be a loss of 3.9% TP/hit, but if it doesn't actually do anything, then it may aswell be 0% decrease.

Unless theres some other use for TP/hit apart from how many rounds it takes you to reach 100%TP that I'm missing...

First off, yet again the 4.6/4,7 is not to be used for actual TP gain as it is then bumped up by your personal STP gear. In my case its +13 which, as said before is:


A) Your excluding STP.
B) Your excluding EVERYTHING that actually happens in game.

Do you SA in Skadi legs? Do you TA in Skadi OR rajas? Do you SA in suppa? Do you SA or TA in acc/DW mirke? Do you get differeing numbers on TP return on WS due to misses or DA/TA/overkill procs? Do you ever use more than 1 type of WS? Do you ever get feather tickled and have to start from zero, not WS TP return? Do you ever miss a hit while dual wielding of otherwise land an odd number of hits from 1 round due to DA, missing, triples messing up your imaginary 2 hits per round? Do you ever get hit or take aoe damage that gives TP?

Is anyone actually trying to say that all of these factors and more are irrelevant and that X hit build still works on Thf? Really?

X hit builds dont exist on thf. Thf/Nin has the MOST unrealiable TP gain of ANY job in this entire game. We get the least TP/Hit, We have the most unreliable multi hit WS in the game due to very high chances to DA/TA and lots of hits, and also poor acc compared to most melees for far more misses.

Thf does NOT get any use out of X hit builds because they:
1) Change out and into STP gear while meleeing (SA/TA)
2) WS give highly variable TP returns with missing and DA/TA
3) May get an even or odd number of hits to 100 because if you need 20 hits to 100 and miss one or DA one or miss+triple etc, now it will take you 22 hits, not 21 because you DW. And works vice versa. Therefore it can tip either way if you are comparing two Xhit builds because any multi hits or misses will keep swaying which would have landed on 100 and changes on every trip up to 100.

A sam that misses 1 hit still has an 6 hit build because no matter what it will be WS+5 hits, and doesnt matter when those 5 hits land. A thf comparing a 19hit to 20 hit is NOT always going to just be 10 attack rounds. Should any of the above happen and more, it could easily change to landing exactly 19 hits and the 19 hit build wins on one trip to 100 forcing the 20 hit build to take an entire extra round, 21 hits, to get 100. The next time it may be reversed and land right on 20 and they both are the same for that trip. Or you may triple attack both hands and go straight to 24 hits and overshoot them both. You CANT rely on an X hit build.



So you are saying that Theorycrafting doesnt work because it uses "abstract" ideas like TP/Hour and is therefore removed from the real game. Yet you are here saying that Xhit matters WITHOUT accounting for ANY variable that actually changes the result in game.

X hit builds are a poor way to measure TP gain because Thf is far to variable with TP. To many factors change it in game making you roll the dice on how many hits it will take to get to 100. If you have one set that gets TP FASTER, it will avg more WS over time regardless of X hit build or not. And all we really want is more WS.

Ill repeat:

I dont have Coraza yet, but the two ACP bodies seemed too close with their give and take for me to justify creating a body that would be inferior for anything not /nin. So I went Acc/Att.

Well I'm sorry but I still can't accept TP1/TP2 for Dot/TP gain decrease/increase model as a valid way of measureing.

The change in the amount of TP you gain per hit means absolutely nothing whatsoever at all if it doesn't change how quick it takes you to get to 100%TP (read: how many hits it takes). This is such an important fact that is completely ignored by your TP1/TP2% model.

You say counting hits to 100TP and all the rest is inaccurate due to all the outside factors, but I'm sorry it's still more accurate than what you're doing.

Take a non-DWing DD. Say they get 15.9 TP per hit, but then have this reduced to 15.5% by using a -3% delay item (hi sword strap). By your model that's a 2.58% decrease in TP gain! Oh no! However that 2.58% decrease will never ever actually do anything at all. As you lose all TP over 100, any excess you have when you WS is completely lost and completely irrelevant. Ending at 102 or 100 or 105 or 114 or any number between 100 and 100+[TP per hit-1] means completely nothing. You will never in this example have that 2.58% decrease. It's there on paper but will never do anything in practice.

Now you constantly state that using Xhit calulations is inaccurate because of all the outside factors such as TA procs, missing one hit in a DW attack round, and so on. And yes, this is true, but as I have said, what you're exampling are exceptions to the rule. In general it wil even out and be an accurate model. Hell, you can even argue that if you take 10rounds/20hits then you will miss an average of one hit with 95% acc rate, gain one hit through 5% DA (brutal proc) and gain 2hits through 5% TA proc, which evens out as +1round and so doesn't actually effect an xhit scenario!

Now, yes, that is an ideal situation, but that is generally what will happen over time, and although there will be exceptions, this will be an accurate model for the majority of the time. Calculating % decrease in TP will not, because as I have said, and as others have also stated, if it doesn't affect how many rounds it takes to reach 100TP that time, then it will have had 0% effect on anything.

In short, % increase in TP gain/loss will never be accurate in practice, whereas Xhit comparisons will for the majority of the time. How you can argue it's a better means of measuring things, I don't know.

Noodles, its not JUST outside factors like DW+ missing a hit during TP. DE BY ITSELF destroys any X hit builds. We dont start from zero. We dont start from 10. We start from (most cases getting a 9.X base for 2 hits and +0-6 from other hits) anywhere from 4 to 15 TP for most dagger sets. Most "common" end TP results are (missing only 0-2 hits)

15=Full+Triple
14=Double or Triple+miss
13=full
12=miss one middle.
11=Triple and miss ofhand/main or just miss 2 middle
10=Double and miss offhand/main or Triple+miss a middle+offhand/main
9=miss offhand or main hand (more likely off hand due to acc bonus on 1st hit.)
8=Miss main/off and one middle.

And bajillions of other combinations. Wow only allowing a 2 miss option, we have ANYTHING between 8 and 15 TP and in 1 TP increments. How does that NOT @#%^ over any semblance of a planned X hit build. The spread for common DE returns is WIDER than the amount of TP we get per hit and is available in 1 TP increments. If option 1 gets to 100 in 18 hits and option 2 gets to 102 in 18 hits, DE ALONE will make those into different X hit builds every time you WS. You roll the /random dice every time you WS.

Sam doesnt have that problem. Drg doesnt. No 2 hander does because the TP spread from a WS is less than 1 hit so if you had a 6 hit before WS you have it after. WS cant affect your build. We have WS skewing our TP and a crapload of other junk. When combined with getting less tp/hit it means that it takes less to shift to or away from a specific X hit build than slow weapon jobs.

Thf needs less change to mess up a planned X hit due to lower TP/hit.

Thfs WS by nature (high number of hits and offhand hits) and combined with Double/Triple attacks and being blind as hell for less than stellar consistency compared to many jobs TP return all leads to WIDE WS TP return spreads beyond that of any other job. We can EASILY see anything from 8-15 only allowing for 2 misses in 1 tp increments.

THEN you add on all the other factors of hits, misses, DW, Changing out DW and STP gear for SA/TA, getting hit with mob atacks/aoes/tickles.

Thf has MORE junk changing our TP than 2hand jobs.


We arent sams. They have 4 options for TP return.

Whiff=6 hits to 100.
Hit=WS+5 hits.
Hit+DA=WS+5 hits and ~102 TP.
Whiff+DA= 6 hits=~102 TP.

No matter what they will land right on or near 100 TP every time. The ONLY Thing that can reliably mess up a build is Med. But i dont think they complain much since its jus an assload of free TP as it is and they have that JA to only use 100 TP to help ride that out some anyway.

If Drg got anything from 10-35 in 1 TP increments from Drakes, sure they would have to worry more about getting their 6 hits jacked up too. They dont.

With all the factors that will determing IF you will get that X hit build or not every time you TP up on Thf, you cant say, well this one gets 5TP/hit and this one 5.1 so they both need 20 hits (100 and 102 TP respectively). Because depending on your DE return, you will gain or loose a few TP. If you SA or TA with changes to STP for DW gear, it will shift you up or down a TP or 2. You may or may not land on the correct number of hits (ie 97 TP after a round and needing to wait another round of TWO hits to get the TP and you only need for ONE hit) You may get tickled and drop to zero (a number you will NEVER get from WS). You may get hi by mob TP/Attack/AOE (Hi to you 4 hit flurry with only 3 shadows). This sh*t goes on and on and ON.

Thf TP gain is FAR to unpredictable from EVERY aspect to ever use Xhits as a reliable means to measure anything. BUT, since you basically roll the /random dice every time you TP up weather or not you will land on a favorable or unfavorable amount of TP (how close to 100 you get without wasted TP) the results change constantly. What happens when something is random? The statistical average comes out over time. That would be the % gain in TP gained over time. If gear set 1 gets TP 10% faster than gear set 2, does it matter how many hits it takes? No. You will generate TP and roll the dice every 100 TP to see how close you get. But Option 1 will complete that process 10% faster.

Getting TP X% faster just gives you that same X% more shots at the random dice which means that over time you will get X% more rolls in your favor purely by rolling more often. End result is more WS for you. More death to the enemy.

Edited, Sep 14th 2009 11:04pm by Banalaty

Did I ever say "Thf should use an Xhit build?" no. I said Xhit comparisons are a more accurate way to measure TP than x% increase/decrease. And they are.

I don't see how you can argue a formula that will occasionally be right, over one that will be occasionally wrong.

Besides, I'm fairly confident if your non-DW mirke was as worthwhile as you like to think then melph would be in here immidiatly bashing out numbers, as she always does if a new thought about gear options appears to have some merit.

Yeeaahhh no. Not believing in hit builds doesn't mean believing faster tp gain is worthless too.

Pay for a month of access to the game in which you can do whatever you want, which may entail getting a Homam, and certainly entails many, many others things

≠

Pay $10 for a mini-expansion in which, after a few hours of questing and CS, you get one piece of high-end gear and likely rarely or never use what little re-doing of the final fight can be done before finishing forever

The point is that a monthly fee is not paying for an item, because there is an almost endless array of content to be experienced, and the fee is simply to access it. The case with the mini-expansion is different because it has a very limited lifetime and a finite endpoint, namely once you grab the gear a day or two after activating it.

I'd rather take 5 STR 5 Dex and 12 ATT over 3 acc in that situation (Usually hnms and such?).