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Slug Shot?Follow

#52 Aug 30 2009 at 1:04 AM Rating: Good
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Queen Noodles wrote:
Hmm, I remember that quote without looking up, Still, I have no toruble admitting I feel the need to get butthurt OMG YOU'RE SUCH A NOOB QQQQQQQQ
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#53 Aug 30 2009 at 6:32 AM Rating: Default
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Think you misquoted there
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ArsDraconis wrote:
Ultima spends 10 whole seconds shouting "I'MA FIRIN MAH LAZER" like a 2004 valkurm melee waiting for SC
#54 Aug 30 2009 at 8:27 AM Rating: Good
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Queen Noodles wrote:
Think you misquoted there


You just may be onto something.
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#55 Aug 30 2009 at 12:45 PM Rating: Default
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I still don't see how it's relevant
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ArsDraconis wrote:
Ultima spends 10 whole seconds shouting "I'MA FIRIN MAH LAZER" like a 2004 valkurm melee waiting for SC
#56 Aug 30 2009 at 12:53 PM Rating: Decent
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Queen Noodles wrote:
I still don't see how it's relevant


Trolling a troll is fun?

Aside from that, on the topic of "relevance" nothing you have posted in this, now 2 page, train wreck has even come remotely close to impersonating relevant information.

Edited, Aug 30th 2009 4:56pm by ThiefKiller
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#57 Aug 30 2009 at 1:21 PM Rating: Excellent
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Queen Noodles wrote:
I still don't see how it's relevant

orly? See example a:
The actual quote wrote:
Most of the zergs I have been in have caused wipes because one too many DD went down or the mob lived past a CS stun.

What you quoted wrote:
Most of the zergs I have been in have caused wipes

And you then proceeded to use that as a basis of part of your argument.

Smiley: oyvey You're avatar really doesn't help much either.
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#58 Aug 30 2009 at 2:16 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Lol I meant most of the zergs that I have seen wipe. Not that most of my zergs wipe.
Quote:
Most of the zergs I have been in have caused wipes because one too many DD went down or the mob lived past a CS stun.
Smiley: dubious

There. Same thing. Story still changed from "my zergs wipe" to "zergs I see wipe". Never cared who caused a wipe.
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ArsDraconis wrote:
Ultima spends 10 whole seconds shouting "I'MA FIRIN MAH LAZER" like a 2004 valkurm melee waiting for SC
#59 Aug 31 2009 at 7:10 AM Rating: Good
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Queen Noodles wrote:
Quote:
Lol I meant most of the zergs that I have seen wipe. Not that most of my zergs wipe.
Quote:
Most of the zergs I have been in have caused wipes because one too many DD went down or the mob lived past a CS stun.
Smiley: dubious

There. Same thing. Story still changed from "my zergs wipe" to "zergs I see wipe". Never cared who caused a wipe.


The thing is you are trying to argue what you interpreted and not what I said. Even after I clarified that "most of my zergs wipe" is not what I meant.

My "story" never "changed." It wouldn't even make sense from my arguement's point of view. I'm trying to assert that thf/rng can be effective in zergs by saying that most of my zergs wipe? That would be very poor salesmanship.

Which is just to say at this point you are grasping at things to argue about, not on topic, but just to argue because you don't like me. Which is cool. I am guilty too. I haven't really been liking you much either and we've been littering up this post with our little shots at each other.

But I really wish there wasn't all this garbage littering up this thread because I'd like to see more posts like Shamaya (saying it didn't work for him, and with reasons) and Jainaproud, who posted his gear sets (thank you btw), group settings, numbers and said its been effective for him on the very things you are saying it wouldn't work. Whether or not you think he's lying I'll leave to you I guess. But I won't be taking any more shots at you or hurling insults because I know that it is my contribution to this disaster as well.

I came to this thread knowing that my own gear sets are inferior. That 258 skill I can get with 2 pieces of gear I know is out classed by other pieces of gear. That is why I created this thread. I wanted an open discussion to see how other thvs that do this were gearing for it.

Your first argument was that thf with its 220 marksmanship (its 230 but I also think you know that and it was just a typo) skill couldn't hit the broad side of a marid with full racc gear and sushi. This isn't true. With proper gear, merits, food, support and feint during a zerg a naked THF can actually become MORE accurate than a naked, fully merited, RNG (for the first half of feint at least. I'm not in a position to comment on its rate of decay. That would be a good point for you actually). I make this comparison not to say that THF is better at this than a ranger or that we could even compete with their damage, just to gauge its "viability" with thf. RNG can sub /war, gets a few better gear pieces and also gains the benefit of feint. These things cannot be ignored. But my point is they don't get it if we are not there and if we are going to be there, in my opinion, we should be maximizing.

Perhaps your linkshell is good enough that it doesn't need all of its members to maximize. If so, I congratulate you. You are correct in assuming that mine is not in that position. If we can squeeze an extra few K from our TH whores, it takes some of the pressure off. That and I love popping accomplice on one of the heavier DD's, popping PD and taking more pressure off.

If you want to convince me that thf/rng is not the way to maximize in zergs, I am more than happy to be proven wrong. I am interested in maximizing because I need/like/love/want to maximize THF damage, not because of my love for /rng.

Your first posts did not do that. And when I called you inexperienced (never done it, never seen it, never needed to try it?) or uneducated (quoting incorrect skill levels, unsure of how strong feint is...which is really what makes this possible), it was trolling time from here on out. Which again, is cool, both of us are guilty of that. I understand the offense taken (though none was initially intended), but both of those statements are true, in my opinion, based on what you have been posting so far.

Edited, Aug 31st 2009 4:34pm by ThiefKiller
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#60 Sep 01 2009 at 5:29 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Wiki says the initial effect of feint is -50% evasion. So if that's true, it would indeed be at least +100acc. But that's wiki, so I'm not really going to instantly trust their numbers.
I wish it were so. But no way is it as wiki states. It said that long ago when I was doing my own testing. The numbers I got ranged from ~-132 to ~-145 evasion. This is a big range, but then again I was very careful about how I tested this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Kr5YoqjGoU&feature=channel_page
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwNRasTLEig&feature=channel_page

There's some footage of the test I did. I don't have time atm to look for the forum post on it but =/

Given how big those numbers are, I was surprised how much my attempted culverin zerg sucked.
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#61 Sep 01 2009 at 12:25 PM Rating: Decent
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Shamaya wrote:
Quote:
Wiki says the initial effect of feint is -50% evasion. So if that's true, it would indeed be at least +100acc. But that's wiki, so I'm not really going to instantly trust their numbers.
I wish it were so. But no way is it as wiki states. It said that long ago when I was doing my own testing. The numbers I got ranged from ~-132 to ~-145 evasion. This is a big range, but then again I was very careful about how I tested this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Kr5YoqjGoU&feature=channel_page
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwNRasTLEig&feature=channel_page

There's some footage of the test I did. I don't have time atm to look for the forum post on it but =/

Given how big those numbers are, I was surprised how much my attempted culverin zerg sucked.


132-145 evasion down would certainly put us in the Racc ranges we need to be in.

Perhaps the rate of decay puts us in inaccurate territory quickly on mobs like Kirin? We know its at least 40 but its probably more. Do we know how far/how fast it decays?

Or perhaps some other factor not yet known to us effects how much evasion down feint applies. I have also been wondering if the effect stacks with or overwrites/is overwritten by other evasion down effects from weapons like Adder Jambiya and Thalasocrat.

Could be just bad luck landing on him too. Tough to say if it was just that one time.

Edited, Sep 1st 2009 5:32pm by ThiefKiller
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#62 Sep 01 2009 at 4:18 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
I wish it were so. But no way is it as wiki states. It said that long ago when I was doing my own testing. The numbers I got ranged from ~-132 to ~-145 evasion. This is a big range, but then again I was very careful about how I tested this.


It's just as good if not better imo. At -130 evasion at the start as long as you had 30%acc you'd be capped which is not a hard thing to do. If they decay happened to be exactly 40 then all you would need is 50%acc, and these numbers aren't that hard to obtain.

I'm willing to bet you just had **** luck with your zerg.
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#63 Sep 06 2009 at 1:01 PM Rating: Decent
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The only thing that I've done a zerg on is BV2, but judging from my acc as RNG on those and on Kirin in general I doubt you would be able to get away with meat. Even on RNG with feint and prelude, when I eat meat the accuracy of Slug shot isn't near capped. Nothing atrocious like 50% or anything, but when you factor in that you have significantly lower accuracy on THF, you're going to need sushi or at the very least pot au feu to land anything consistently.

Not trying to compare the damage of THF slug to RNG, just trying to give you some perspective on how much you are overestimating Feint. If your goal is maximization, you have to consider dagger/meat vs sushi/cannon, not an idealistic full STR/meat build slugs.
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#64 Sep 06 2009 at 4:15 PM Rating: Decent
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JimBLM wrote:
The only thing that I've done a zerg on is BV2, but judging from my acc as RNG on those and on Kirin in general I doubt you would be able to get away with meat. Even on RNG with feint and prelude, when I eat meat the accuracy of Slug shot isn't near capped. Nothing atrocious like 50% or anything, but when you factor in that you have significantly lower accuracy on THF, you're going to need sushi or at the very least pot au feu to land anything consistently.

Not trying to compare the damage of THF slug to RNG, just trying to give you some perspective on how much you are
Quote:
overestimating Feint
. If your goal is maximization, you have to consider dagger/meat vs sushi/cannon, not an idealistic full STR/meat build slugs.


Quote:

Naked Racc from skill and traits:

Marksmanship Merited THF

200 + .9*46 = 241 + 22 = 263

Unmerited RNG

200 + .9*69 = 262 + 48 = 310

+47 Racc on THF

Marksmanship Merited RNG

200 + .9*85 = 276 + 48 = 324

+61Racc on THF

Racc form AGL between the 2 jobs is going to be within a negligible margin and both have sharp shot.

So a naked RNG has a native 47-61 Racc over a THF


Quote:

Quote:
Wiki says the initial effect of feint is -50% evasion. So if that's true, it would indeed be at least +100acc. But that's wiki, so I'm not really going to instantly trust their numbers.I wish it were so. But no way is it as wiki states. It said that long ago when I was doing my own testing. The numbers I got ranged from ~-132 to ~-145 evasion. This is a big range, but then again I was very careful about how I tested this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Kr5YoqjGoU&feature=channel_page
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwNRasTLEig&feature=channel_page


Not really overestimaing feint. Just running the numbers.

Again, never having done Bv2. I can't comment. But in that case, if it is really all that crazy evasive, I would use Pot Au Feu. Which is a decent combo of Racc and Ratt.

Although a couple of people I have talked to now have quoted good results on Thf/Rng from Bv2. Interesting.

Anyway within the realm of mobs that this would be usful for. Im sure as situation demands, one would use appropriate food. Ranging form meat to Pot Au Feu.

Edited, Sep 6th 2009 8:21pm by ThiefKiller
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#65 Sep 15 2009 at 12:18 AM Rating: Good
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Ok, I need to correct a couple minor inaccuracies.

Quote:
Racc form AGL between the 2 jobs is going to be within a negligible margin and both have sharp shot.
THF has Sharpshot. RNG has AF enhanced Sharpshot. No one that I'm aware of has done full testing on Sharpshot to see what kind difference AF gives (always 1 minute duration), though I've seen assumptions made about +20 vs +30 R Acc (Similar to Temple Crown for Focus on MNK). Testing R Acc differences aren't as straight forward as checking Acc differences, as simple checks can't be used. You can only tell through parsing. And getting enough data for no sharpshot, sharpshot with AF pants, sharpshot without AF pants. Yeah...

Also, how much EVA is gained back by the mob in the 6 seconds after firing your first slug shot, and firing Barrage? Noodles, despite the flame war he engaged in, brought up a valid point regarding the use of more R Acc on barrage likely being unneccessary. And if for some reason it is neccessary (I'm skeptical until I see concrete decay numbers), then you'll definately need to be making the final 2 slug shots (assumming you'll be using an Icarus Wing) in even more R Acc gear.
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#66 Sep 16 2009 at 8:20 AM Rating: Decent
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Cyth wrote:
(I'm skeptical until I see concrete decay numbers)


Yeah, this is really what we need to quantify. I haven't seen any tests done on its rate of decay. And it really doesn't serve this purpose well on REALLY high level stuff if it does go from -145 to nothing quickly.

Based on personal experiences, I am disinclined to believe that it races from ~145 to 0 in 30 seconds (although it is entirely possible). I personally still notice an evasion down effect right up until it wears off.

I agree (and I'm pretty sure I quoted) that ranger gets better gear for what they do. AF Barrage, and I'm sure many more. It was more of a "thinking out loud" shot for shot, stat for stat what's our base. The comparison was made to ranger because they are the ones that use these tactics when they come to zergs. And to question if it viable based on that comparison?

The only thing that closes the gap for a THF is feint. So, until we do some concrete testing in terms of rate of decay, it will be something that is hard to quantify.
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#67Shakca, Posted: Oct 03 2009 at 3:24 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Lose all your DOT. Not is a good idea for only WS damage. There some zerg methods using mercurial and coffin. But you get terrible results even in a EXP PARTY. destroy your SOlo SA. SOLO TA, all your DOT for a ws damage is stupid
#68 Oct 05 2009 at 10:23 PM Rating: Good
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Oh snap. Shakca posted in my thread....


..I feel as if I've finally made it.
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#69 Oct 06 2009 at 3:22 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Lose all your DOT. Not is a good idea for only WS damage. There some zerg methods using mercurial and coffin. But you get terrible results even in a EXP PARTY. destroy your SOlo SA. SOLO TA, all your DOT for a ws damage is stupid
Holy hell. I know I don't post on the THF boards too often, but are you on crack, high, or just plain stupid?

I'm guessing this is the THF forums regular troll?
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#70 Oct 06 2009 at 6:26 PM Rating: Good
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Cyth wrote:
Quote:
Lose all your DOT. Not is a good idea for only WS damage. There some zerg methods using mercurial and coffin. But you get terrible results even in a EXP PARTY. destroy your SOlo SA. SOLO TA, all your DOT for a ws damage is stupid
Holy hell. I know I don't post on the THF boards too often, but are you on crack, high, or just plain stupid?

I'm guessing this is the THF forums regular troll?


You guessed right lol.
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Merits - HP: 8 Str: 1 Dex: 2 Dagger: 8 Marksmanship: 4 Evasion: 4 Parrying: 4 Crit Rate: 4 Spell Interruption rate: 4 Sneak Attack: 5 Triple Attack: 5 Assassin's Charge: 4 Feint: 5 Aura Steal: 1

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