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Slug Shot?Follow

#1 Aug 21 2009 at 10:18 AM Rating: Decent
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I was just curious to all you other thf/rng zergers out there. How do you gear yourself for slug shot? Using Culverin or Coffinmaker?

Being that we can make good use of feint, can have minimal consideration for Racc, and access to some nice STR gear (Hecatomb set). Just looking to get an idea of what gear sets you guys are using and what kind of results you are getting.

From what I understand, STR is the biggest damaging stat mod you can make until you cap fSTR2 then agl & ratt? I have a lot of improvements I think I can make to my set. Just looking to get some ideas from other thvs that lolthf/rng :P
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#2 Aug 21 2009 at 12:04 PM Rating: Decent
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Damage wise Culverin + Cannon Shell would be the best way to go. First problem you run into is getting the Cannon Shells. They hardly on the AH on levi. So you need high lvl Alchemy(94). Or you need to find a friend who has.

Setting: zerg sitation and we assume feint is on.

Setup I would go with:
Vulcan's/fire staff / Axe Grip / Culverin / Cannon Shell
Maat's cap / Breeze Gorget / Triumph Earring / Triumph Earring
Skadi's Cuirie / Skadi's Bazubands / Rajas Ring / Flame ring
Amemet Mantle +1 / Buccaneer's Belt / Skadi's Chausses / Enkidu's Leggings

I assume you start with 100tp. So you would open with with a dagger WS. I.e. SA+hide -> draw wep -> spam Shark Bite macro. Get feint in. Then swap to Vulcan's/fire staff.

Or could go without a dagger. Which I could understand in the chaos of a zerg fight. With just a staff open the fight with: SA+feint+hide -> draw wep -> run in. Then: Slug Shot -> I wing -> Slug Shot -> Barrage -> Slug Shot.

Problem is: that is a lot of extra work and hardly extra damage over a dagger zerg situation. Dagger zerg example could be: thf/drk or thf/war. Feint -> SAws -> I wing -> TAws -> melee -> ws.

Sad part is in both sitations the sam, mnk, war, drk will still do way more damage then you. That is if they know what they doing. But they cheat with there damage 2hour ;_;
/fume SE give thf a damage 2 hour also!

Edited, Aug 21st 2009 10:04pm by Breaze
#3 Aug 21 2009 at 12:44 PM Rating: Decent
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I don't have DRK leveled so I can't really comment on that but I have done /war. In my experience the most damage I've been able to put out in a short window of time is this (eating meat):

SATA+AC+Feint+Hide+Dagger WS==> TP wing==> Slugshot==> Barrage==> Slugshot.

I keep my dagger on because you can also throw in a few fully powered Solo SA and TA.

So that 3 big WS, 1 big barrage (meat+feint if all hits land) and a few solo TA/SA in 30 seconds. I always liked this because dagger WS unstacked on tough stuff just seemed a bit "meh" and on a lot of the boss stuff...SAWS = flail.

Now as I said, I haven't tried thf/drk but most of the things I have done this on were small group stuff(low on healing support). I was there for TH and feint anyway so I said @#%^ this I'm kicking some *** too. Seems to me /drk might not be practical for most of them (but again I have never tried it).

I don't have all the best toys but my thf is no slouch either and the damage I've been able to pull out of my thf/rng build has been impressing me.

Now I'm just looking to consciously maximize gear sets for it. Seeing as how STR seems to be the best stat to increase damage (correct me if I'm wrong), and we get lots of it in our endgame gear (heca, skadi etc), that a thf could put together a pretty solid slug shot build.

Just curious if anyone was doing that already.

Edited, Aug 21st 2009 4:45pm by ThiefKiller
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#4 Aug 21 2009 at 11:44 PM Rating: Default
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Is this a joke?
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I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#5 Aug 22 2009 at 1:54 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
I don't have DRK leveled so I can't really comment on that but I have done /war. In my experience the most damage I've been able to put out in a short window of time is this (eating meat):

SATA+AC+Feint+Hide+Dagger WS==> TP wing==> Slugshot==> Barrage==> Slugshot.

It is not really clear from your post but you can't Slug Shot with thf/war. I assume that you mean the above senario was done with thf/rng.

I would suggest testing all these combinations and gear setups yourself. And definatelly give thf/drk a try also. If you getting cure bombed thf/drk should be the best thf "zerg" SJ.



Edited, Aug 22nd 2009 11:55am by Breaze
#6 Aug 22 2009 at 10:40 AM Rating: Good
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Nvm me if that's your case, but I don't think any linkshell lead will give a thf a personal whm. It's a lot more interesting to give a whm to a mnk/drk or a drk.

If I had to classify thf's SJ orders for zerging, I'd go with :
#1 /drk with mercurial kriss, but you NEED a dedicaced healer, which doesn't happen often
#2 /rng, tossing many slugshots with culverin is a great way to do damages
#3 /war, WS'ing as soon as you have TP. But it is 95% nullified if the target got phalanx (bahamuth2, which resist dispel in like 75% of the casts >.> )

That's assuming you get the songs buffs. When I don't get them I usually /whm or /blm to get out faster when we are done as my dmg would be negligible anyway.
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#7 Aug 23 2009 at 9:36 AM Rating: Default
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Breaze wrote:
It is not really clear from your post but you can't Slug Shot with thf/war.


Duh?

I would think it would be "clear" because I said I've been doing it that it was thf/rng? The /war part was in response to the "better" dagger zerg comment form /drk and /war.

Breaze wrote:
I would suggest testing all these combinations and gear setups yourself. And definatelly give thf/drk a try also. If you getting cure bombed thf/drk should be the best thf "zerg" SJ.


I have been and intend to. The purpose of this post was to compare gear sets of other thvs that thf/rng zerg like this (I know there are a few others on this board), not to discuss the best sj to zerg with on thf.

I have heard good things about drk zerg, but I dont have a kris, or a dedicated healer in most cases. And /rng with a culverin is quite impressive. I encourage all who havent tried this to try it at least once.

Quote:
Is this a joke?


No. It's not a joke.

Edited, Aug 23rd 2009 1:40pm by ThiefKiller
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#8Queen Noodles, Posted: Aug 23 2009 at 10:39 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Equip your Assassin's Armlets and/or Thief's Knife, pop Feint and leave the DDing to the other melee.
#9 Aug 23 2009 at 1:20 PM Rating: Decent
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Queen Noodles wrote:
Equip your Assassin's Armlets and/or Thief's Knife, pop Feint and leave the DDing to the other melee.

In a zerg like KV, Kirin or Baha V2, your primary roles are feint and treasure hunter. You're kidding yourself if you think that you're there for damage, or that you'll have a dedicated Whm healer for /drk.

If you want to take your zerg damage seriously, with the haste you'll have in a zerg, I doubt a slug>barrage>slug from VERY low skill will trump the damage you could get from meleeing and spamming DE with full buffs and max haste (Assuming you swap in TH in last few moments).

Edited, Aug 23rd 2009 6:41pm by Noodles


On any HNM with DEF high enough that DE or SB will be out damaged by Slugshot, Mandalic Stab will out damage that by virtue of it's attack multiplier.



Edited, Aug 23rd 2009 6:22pm by Lobivopis
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I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#10 Aug 23 2009 at 6:27 PM Rating: Decent
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Queen Noodles wrote:
Equip your Assassin's Armlets and/or Thief's Knife, pop Feint and leave the DDing to the other melee.

In a zerg like KV, Kirin or Baha V2, your primary roles are feint and treasure hunter. You're kidding yourself if you think that you're there for damage...


/facepalm

You are kidding yourself if you think you shouldn't be doing damage.

Queen Noodles wrote:
If you want to take your zerg damage seriously, with the haste you'll have in a zerg, I doubt a slug>barrage>slug from VERY low skill will trump the damage you could get from meleeing and spamming DE with full buffs and max haste (Assuming you swap in TH in last few moments).


lol. Again, I am NOT interested in a debate on whether or not you think that thf/rng is a good idea. You seem to have no experience with it. I'm looking for gear sets of thvs that do.

Quote:
On any HNM with DEF high enough that DE or SB will be out damaged by Slugshot, Mandalic Stab will out damage that by virtue of it's attack multiplier.


Thats only true if you can stack them. Most hnms you cant SAWS so that leaves TAWS or a fully stacked WS at the beginning. The fact of the matter is that with culverin and cannon shell your base damage even before stats is 140 on a ws that does quadruple damage. With marksmenship merits, gear, support, food and feint, these attack and accuracy deficiencies can be made up for enough for this strategy to be effective.

But again, Im not looking for inexperienced or uneducated people trying to tell me it doesnt work lol. Believe me it does. I'm looking to compare THF WS gear for slug shot. That is all.

Edited, Aug 23rd 2009 10:38pm by ThiefKiller

Edited, Aug 23rd 2009 10:40pm by ThiefKiller
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#11Queen Noodles, Posted: Aug 23 2009 at 9:48 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Ok fine. You want to waste your gil on equipment for /rng, just to do less damage than a meleeing thf/war, be my guest.
#12 Aug 24 2009 at 7:41 AM Rating: Good
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Queen Noodles wrote:
Ok fine. You want to waste your gil on equipment for /rng, just to do less damage than a meleeing thf/war, be my guest.

If you're so superb, then you shouldn't need to be told what gear works, you should know. (Every Skadi piece, Denali Jacket, Optical Hat, Quadav SCNM hat, Peacock Charm, Triumph Earrings, Merman's Rings, Flame/Rajas Ring, Amemet Mantle +1, Buccaneer's Belt)

So theres the gear for the answer to your stupid question.

Yes, it's stupid. Why? Because as I and Lobi have pointed out, it's damage will still not out-do a Thf/War spamming DE. AND, if you're "not getting enough buffs that slug will outperform DE", by means of a lack of attack, then your slugs will suck too. Good luck getting them over 200ish on a Kirin without attack buffs.

And if you are getting attack buffs? (protip: you should be if you're in a zerg), then Meleeing with a good dagger and spamming WSs WILL outbeat a gimp Slug>Barrage>Slug from piddly 220 skill.

Thf/Rng is not for zergs. You wanna play with it? Be my guest, knock yourself out, I couldn't give a **** what you do in campaign or solo or besieged or whatever, But it's damage will suck on anything important.

Also, uneducated and inexperianced? From the guy who thinks spamming (read: using it twice and barrage once) slug shot with 230 skill will in any way whatsoever come remotely close to the damage you could achieve Thf/War

Edited, Aug 24th 2009 5:54am by Noodles


lol. Ok?

I would like to invite you to try it. It doesnt work in EVERY situation but nothing does. The fact is, there are many situations where thf/rng with a culverin will destroy /war.

I don't fault you for being ignorant. **** trying to say something is stupid that you have neither knowledge of nor experience with only makes you look stupid.

And a lot of the gear you mentioned, one would not (intelligently) use for this purpose.

Noodle Queen wrote:
then Meleeing with a good dagger and spamming WSs WILL outbeat a gimp Slug>Barrage>Slug from piddly 220 skill.


SO is it 220 skill that /war would "outbeat?" (lol)

Noodle Queen wrote:
From the guy who thinks spamming (read: using it twice and barrage once) slug shot with 230 skill will in any way whatsoever come remotely close to the damage you could achieve Thf/War


Or is it 230?

Nebo wrote:

With marksmanship merits..


Or is it 246 with merits?

Nebo wrote:
..gear..


Or is it 258 with Gun Belt and Faith Torque? (Hint: that's 11 skill points shy of an unmerited marksmanship RNG).

Nebo wrote:
support, food and feint


"OMG, Nebo, that's still 11 skill points of GIMPPPPP!" Touche, young noodles. But WAIT! THF can FEINT...every 2 minutes!!! NOWAI!!!! Its like you could eat meat, Slug Shot in full damage WS gear (without that Racc crap you suggested for this...which would be "stupid") with that bad *** cannon and make a Biga BOOOM!!!! Of all the stupid ideas!

Or do you have even the slightest clue what you are talking about?

I'll give you a hint:


Noodles Queen wrote:
Equip your Assassin's Armlets and/or Thief's Knife, pop Feint and leave the DDing to the other melee...

..You're kidding yourself if you think that you're there for damage


This means that you don't.

Edited, Aug 24th 2009 2:13pm by ThiefKiller

Edited, Aug 26th 2009 9:30am by ThiefKiller

Edited, Aug 26th 2009 9:31am by ThiefKiller
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#13Queen Noodles, Posted: Aug 24 2009 at 4:01 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Skill is attack and accuracy. You may have enough acc to land them with feint, sushi /rng and range acc gear, but you'll be about 150ish attack short of Thf/War with a dagger.
#14 Aug 24 2009 at 4:11 PM Rating: Good
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Queen Noodles wrote:
Skill is attack and accuracy. You may have enough acc to land them with feint, sushi /rng and range acc gear, but you'll be about 150ish attack short of Thf/War with a dagger.

If I'm so ignorant to your amazing setup (and: if you know it works so well, and what gear to wear, then why are you even posting?), then why don't you post some proof of how it can be better.


Mostly because I'm not interested in debating the merits of thf/rng with you.

Seriously though, did you even read the post you just responded to? Sushi? racc gear?.....nevermind. I don't care.


If you'll recall the OP:

I wrote:
I was just curious to all you other thf/rng zergers out there. How do you gear yourself for slug shot?


Edited, Aug 24th 2009 8:14pm by ThiefKiller
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#15 Aug 25 2009 at 7:39 AM Rating: Decent
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Who need sushi when feint is up?

Who call a zerg a zerg when it last more than 30s?

As you said the difference between a 292skill and 230 skills is 62 attack. Your thf/war will have double march, double minuet while a thf/rng will have quadruple minuets and will be with the rangers pt. Something tells me the difference of attack is covered here. So that point is irrelevant.

When gearing /rng, I am with :

fire staff / axe grip / culverin / the big ammo
skadi's mask / light gorget(Faith for barrage) / triumph *2
Hecatomb body (skadi's for barrage)/ skadi's hands / rajas / flame (behemoth for barrage)
amemet / bucaneer's belt / skadi's legs / hecatomb feet

There are a few upgrades possible, this is far to be perfect. Hecatomb head-maat's cap would be perfect for this for exemple.
The goal is to gear for STR / ranged attack, there is no worry to have with accuracy when feint is up(I put some for barrages tho, just in case because it would eat up a full WS to have a bad miss).

Note that I only got +8 Xbow skill merits, as my other merits are taken by dagger and h2h.

With that I land slugshots for 1400-1700, depending on how good I am with keeping distance, on bahamut 2, or 900-1100 on kirin. In the 1st case, phalanx would nulify your dagger meleeing. And in the 2nd case, the fSTR will reduce your dmg considerably.
I have never done KV, I'll admit it, so maybe you're right on this one.
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#16Queen Noodles, Posted: Aug 25 2009 at 8:52 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Someone using a weapon with -40 native accuracy from skill, and then using a weaponskill with a further -40racc at 100% TP.
#17 Aug 25 2009 at 11:12 AM Rating: Decent
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Queen Noodles wrote:
jainaproud wrote:
Who need sushi when feint is up?

Someone using a weapon with -40 native accuracy from skill, and then using a weaponskill with a further -40racc at 100% TP.

Feint is not capped acc with a sh*t weapon. Why do you think Drks still need Madrigal, even with feint, when they zerg?

A Thf/Rng will also have march x2 minuet x2. You're not going to get your own private songs afterwards. And even if you do, you wont get both. If for some special reason they taylor the songs around a thf/rng's needs, the last buffs you get befor pianissimo will still be sung under troubingale, which will wear just after. You can then only put ONE non-troub song on top. Trust me. I'm a bard. That's how it works.

You say "what kind of zerg lasts longer than 30sec?" and then say "the rng pt". What kind of gimp zerg has a rng party?

Secondly, you're also doing it very wrong in your gear. Slug shot has a -40racc penalty at 100%TP. So you're going to need over capped acc for a good chance of landing it. If you're over capped acc in that STR set you post, then why would you equip more racc (skadi body) afterwards? You're already past cap, it does nothing for barrage. capped racc is capped racc, +1000 racc, and it's still capped racc.


Why are you still posting? Thf/Rng isn't for you. Great. Go the **** away.

Edited, Aug 25th 2009 3:13pm by ThiefKiller
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#18Queen Noodles, Posted: Aug 26 2009 at 3:15 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Ok, I'll leave your post alone. Where's anna? I want to have a Thf/Whm discussion and I don't want any input from uneducated and inexperianced people telling me it's a bad combo cus i know it works!
#19 Aug 26 2009 at 5:22 AM Rating: Decent
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jainaproud wrote:
Who need sushi when feint is up?

Who call a zerg a zerg when it last more than 30s?

As you said the difference between a 292skill and 230 skills is 62 attack. Your thf/war will have double march, double minuet while a thf/rng will have quadruple minuets and will be with the rangers pt. Something tells me the difference of attack is covered here. So that point is irrelevant.

When gearing /rng, I am with :

fire staff / axe grip / culverin / the big ammo
skadi's mask / light gorget(Faith for barrage) / triumph *2
Hecatomb body (skadi's for barrage)/ skadi's hands / rajas / flame (behemoth for barrage)
amemet / bucaneer's belt / skadi's legs / hecatomb feet

There are a few upgrades possible, this is far to be perfect. Hecatomb head-maat's cap would be perfect for this for exemple.
The goal is to gear for STR / ranged attack, there is no worry to have with accuracy when feint is up(I put some for barrages tho, just in case because it would eat up a full WS to have a bad miss).

Note that I only got +8 Xbow skill merits, as my other merits are taken by dagger and h2h.

With that I land slugshots for 1400-1700, depending on how good I am with keeping distance, on bahamut 2, or 900-1100 on kirin. In the 1st case, phalanx would nulify your dagger meleeing. And in the 2nd case, the fSTR will reduce your dmg considerably.
I have never done KV, I'll admit it, so maybe you're right on this one.
.

Thanks for the info. My current set puts me at 258 skill with neck and waist with STR > RATT everywhere else. I know there are better pieces for those slots so I'm going to have to work toward them. That looks like a really solid Thf Slug set though, quite inspiring.

I actually have a full body racc swap for barrage lol..I just dont like missing hits.

Mainly I just wanted to see what peoples experiences with heca were. I'm going to be getting a few soon and they seem like good slug shot pieces (mainly the head).

I know a few guys that use a vulcan staff for this, but it never seemed worth the damage to swap out a dagger and either a) land a fully buffed MS or SB at the start an/or land a few solo TA or SA as well.

Do you just Feint=> Slug=> TP Wing=> Slug=> Barrage=> Slug?

I've always been partial to:

SATA+AC+HIDE+Dagger WS, Feint, Barrage, Slug, TP Wing, Slug, Solo TA as timers allow, Solo SA as timers allow (while meleeing in between).

Its always fun to see peoples eyeballs pop out of their skull when they have never seen it done before and theres some decent thf damage there on the zerg parse.

Edited, Aug 26th 2009 9:25am by ThiefKiller

Edited, Aug 26th 2009 9:28am by ThiefKiller
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#20 Aug 26 2009 at 5:57 AM Rating: Excellent
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thf/drk and thf/rng with culverin are pretty good for zergs. And feint is that strong.
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#21Queen Noodles, Posted: Aug 26 2009 at 7:48 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) IF you have enough racc that your landing slug shot at 100%TP why swap in more racc for barrage?
#22 Aug 26 2009 at 8:19 AM Rating: Good
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Queen Noodles wrote:
IF you have enough racc that your landing slug shot at 100%TP why swap in more racc for barrage?


Becuase if you miss one hit with barrage you dont get the rest.

Becuase the reason for barrage is to build tp for the next WS.

Because there is no good reason not to.
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#23 Aug 26 2009 at 8:31 AM Rating: Default
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ThiefKiller wrote:
Queen Noodles wrote:
IF you have enough racc that your landing slug shot at 100%TP why swap in more racc for barrage?


Becuase if you miss one hit with barrage you dont get the rest.

Becuase the reason for barrage is to build tp for the next WS.

Because there is no good reason not to.

Yes, but if you have enough racc to land slug shot, with it's -racc penalty (-40 at 100TP), then you're goint to be at racc cap anyway. And if you're not then you need more racc in your slug shot set.

If you're at racc cap, you're at racc cap. Adding more racc does not make barrage any more accurate if you are at cap already. So if you're already at cap, you're adding more racc which does nothing whilst replacing str which can and will up barrage damage.

The only reason a ranger macros in more racc is to offset the loss of AF+1 hands over their normal piece. Any who racros in lots more is doing it wrong. Either they have far too much for barrage (which will have sharpshot up aswell) OR they have not enough for TPing.

In a similar case to you: Either you have not enough racc in your slug shot set, OR you have too much in your barrage set.

edit: typos

Edited, Aug 26th 2009 4:32pm by Noodles
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#24 Aug 26 2009 at 8:53 AM Rating: Decent
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Queen Noodles wrote:
ThiefKiller wrote:
Queen Noodles wrote:
IF you have enough racc that your landing slug shot at 100%TP why swap in more racc for barrage?


Becuase if you miss one hit with barrage you dont get the rest.

Becuase the reason for barrage is to build tp for the next WS.

Because there is no good reason not to.

Yes, but if you have enough racc to land slug shot, with it's -racc penalty (-40 at 100TP), then you're goint to be at racc cap anyway. And if you're not then you need more racc in your slug shot set.

If you're at racc cap, you're at racc cap. Adding more racc does not make barrage any more accurate if you are at cap already. So if you're already at cap, you're adding more racc which does nothing whilst replacing str whilsch can and wipp up barrage damage.

The only reason a ranger macros in more racc is to offset the loss of AF+1 hands over their normal piece. Any who racros in lots more is doing it wrong. Either they have far too much for barrage (which will have sharpshot up aswell) OR they have not enough for TPing.

In a similar case to you: Either you have not enough racc in your slug shot set, OR you have too much in your barrage set.



I'm not quite sure what you are arguing here. TWO other people have come here and told you that it does work quite well. Yes feint IS that strong. This isn't my oppinion or even my own totally whacky Nebo idea. People have been doing this for a long time.

Those numbers about 40 racc deficiency from skill are wrong. I already get 258 skill in my set from two pieces of gear with merits and there are much better pieces in those slots I could be wearing but don't have yet. But even if it were true, with base marksmenship merits plus feint, Slug Shot Racc is within effective levels.

THF gets a lot of great gear to Slug Shot with, and a few STR pieces that would make a RNG drool. Add to that support and the ability to eat meat or even Pot-Au-Feu...and you have quite a powerful combination.

THF/WAR couldn't match this in a zerg because they can't weapon skill as fast or as hard. You are either super buffing one ws and blowing your sa and ta timers, TA wsing then trying to get a solo SA, or on the off chance that its something that doesn't flail, you can pop that tp wing and get a SAWS. But then what. Melee....get tp and try to ws again unstacked?

A THF/RNG can put out 3 exceptionally powerful weaponskills + barrage damage + a couple of fully geared solo SA and TA (eating meat) in ~30 seconds.

My friend, that will "outbeat" anything THF/WAR can offer you in that timeframe. Culverin STARTS at 140 base damage...and with all the Racc, Ratt and STR we just talked about... a THF/WAR would go home crying from a zerg wishing it could grow up to be a big strong THF/RNG one day.

In longer fights, I agree, THF/WAR could likely come out on top. But for short zergs...THF/RNG is good for any THF that is looking to be productive.

Edited, Aug 27th 2009 3:49pm by ThiefKiller
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#25 Aug 28 2009 at 5:02 AM Rating: Default
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ThiefKiller wrote:
Queen Noodles wrote:
ThiefKiller wrote:
Queen Noodles wrote:
IF you have enough racc that your landing slug shot at 100%TP why swap in more racc for barrage?


Becuase if you miss one hit with barrage you dont get the rest.

Becuase the reason for barrage is to build tp for the next WS.

Because there is no good reason not to.

Yes, but if you have enough racc to land slug shot, with it's -racc penalty (-40 at 100TP), then you're goint to be at racc cap anyway. And if you're not then you need more racc in your slug shot set.

If you're at racc cap, you're at racc cap. Adding more racc does not make barrage any more accurate if you are at cap already. So if you're already at cap, you're adding more racc which does nothing whilst replacing str whilsch can and wipp up barrage damage.

The only reason a ranger macros in more racc is to offset the loss of AF+1 hands over their normal piece. Any who racros in lots more is doing it wrong. Either they have far too much for barrage (which will have sharpshot up aswell) OR they have not enough for TPing.

In a similar case to you: Either you have not enough racc in your slug shot set, OR you have too much in your barrage set.



I'm not quite sure what you are arguing here. TWO other people have come here and told you that it does work quite well. Yes feint IS that strong. This isn't my oppinion or even my own totally whacky Nebo idea. People have been doing this for a long time.

Those numbers about 40 racc deficiency from skill are wrong. I already get 258 skill in my set from two pieces of gear with merits and there are much better pieces in those slots I could be wearing but don't have yet. But even if it were true, with base marksmenship merits plus feint, Slug Shot Racc is within effective levels.

THF gets a lot of great gear to Slug Shot with, and a few STR pieces that would make a RNG drool. Add to that support and the ability to eat meat or even Pot-Au-Feu...and you have quite a powerful combination.

THF/WAR couldn't match this in a zerg because they can't weapon skill as fast or as hard. You are either super buffing one ws and blowing your sa and ta timers, TA wsing then trying to get a solo SA, or on the off chance that its something that doesn't flail, you can pop that tp wing and get a SAWS. But then what. Melee....get tp and try to ws again unstacked?

A THF/RNG can put out 3 exceptionally powerful weaponskills + barrage damage + a couple of fully geared solo SA and TA (eating meat) in ~30 seconds.

My friend, that will "outbeat" anything THF/WAR can offer you in that timeframe. Culverin STARTS at 140 base damage...and with all the Racc, Ratt and STR we just talked about... a THF/WAR would go home crying from a zerg wishing it could grow up to be a big strong THF/RNG one day.

In longer fights, I agree, THF/WAR could likely come out on top. But for short zergs...THF/RNG is good for any THF that is looking to be productive.

Edited, Aug 27th 2009 3:49pm by ThiefKiller
Look you ***. I'm not discussing the use of Thf/Rng with you anymore. I couldn't care. But I am coming to you from my 75RNG perspective to give you advice from barrage.

You don't want to listen to me because I don't like Thf/Rng. But Thf/Rng or Rng main, the game mechanics are still the same. As much as you don't want to listen to me, it doesn't make me any less right.

If you are macroing in thousands of racc over your slug shot set into your barrage set then you ARE doingitrong. There is no discussion. Slug shot is LESS accurate than barrage. Racc caps at 95%. Either you are well well well over cap for barrage (in which case you are losing damage by the Str/Ratt you are swapping out for meaningless racc) OR you have not enough racc in your slug shot set. There is no discussion on this. It is just fact. Go over and look at the rng forums. Why do you suppose no ranger wastes ABCs on that racc+20 back piece?

Put your petty dislike to me aside and listen if you actually want advice. I am right on this matter no matter how much you think I am wrong about the worth of Thf/Rng. I am not discussing Thf/Rng, I'm discussing barrage mechanics.

The -40Racc you quoted has NOTHING to do with Thf/Rng racc loss. It's on SLUG SHOT. Slug has a -40~ish Racc PENALTY at 100%TP.
Meaning if you have 90% acc rate in your TP set, you're slug shots will be only 70% racc.

It looks like you quoted my post without actually reading it at all. I didn't mention thf/rng anywhere in it. I talked only about barrage.
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#26 Aug 28 2009 at 8:23 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
I was just curious to all you other thf/rng zergers out there. How do you gear yourself for slug shot? Using Culverin or Coffinmaker?


I tried this. With feint on I wiffed everything and people laughed at me, lol. Had sushi as well. I came lowest on the parse. I can't remember how much ranged acc equip I had on. Maybe with a full heavy r acc build. Usually feint should be enough but it just didn't seem to do the job on Kirin. And not like you're going to get preludes in a zerg.

If ya did get /drk tho and outside heals, its pretty nice. My last ls didn't have drks, but we had well equipped wars in high-end ga builds just at the 80% haste mark. The only war's that I wouldn't outdamage or essentially tie with were war's using mighty strikes.

I'd say Thf/War, switch to TK at end.

Thf/Nin isn't terrible. You can get another WS off. I'm not sure how it'd be vs Kirin. Maybe better suited vs Bahamut. At one point I topped the parse at KV simply because I had time to get 2 WS's off. I was the first and last to WS it. At KV even if you are /war there can barely be enough time to switch weapons.
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#27 Aug 28 2009 at 10:48 AM Rating: Decent
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Queen Noodles wrote:
The -40Racc you quoted has NOTHING to do with Thf/Rng racc loss.

It looks like you quoted my post without actually reading it at all. I didn't mention thf/rng anywhere in it. I talked only about barrage.


Actually lil buddy, I was referring to when you said this. In the same post as your -40 Racc from Slug.

Queen Noodles wrote:
Someone using a weapon with -40 native accuracy from skill


My dislike for you only has to do with your moronic posts coming in here and calling me stupid (lol) and acting like a complete unprovoked douche bag for my asking to compare gear sets. I asked you to stop posting about this several posts ago. I gave you several reasons why it CAN be effective, and even admitted that it isn't useful for everytihng. When you ignored me, I said "/shrug, who gives a sh*t" and tried to move on. This idiotic little anti THF/RNG rampage of yours is starting to become entertaining.

THE REASON to put racc in your barrage set is because of the way feint works. The effect weakens over time, from very potent at the start to gradually weaker at the end. There is no good reason not to put racc in your barrage macro because the purpose is less about barrage's damage on its own and more about getin 100 tp instantly from it in order to WS again.

Shamaya wrote:
I tried this. With feint on I wiffed everything and people laughed at me, lol. Had sushi as well. I came lowest on the parse. I can't remember how much ranged acc equip I had on. Maybe with a full heavy r acc build. Usually feint should be enough but it just didn't seem to do the job on Kirin. And not like you're going to get preludes in a zerg.


If you could recall what your gear set was (even vaguely) I'd be most grateful. Do you have marksmenship merits? How far away were you shooting from? Was it just on Kirin that that one time?

Edited, Aug 28th 2009 2:50pm by ThiefKiller

Edited, Aug 28th 2009 4:27pm by ThiefKiller

Edited, Aug 28th 2009 4:27pm by ThiefKiller
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#28 Aug 28 2009 at 1:09 PM Rating: Default
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And again you're missing the point that if you are at acc cap anyway, more racc does nothing. You're going to barrage almost immidiatly after slug shot. maybe 5-10 seconds. Are you telling me feint weakens so much in that 5-10 seconds that you go from being able to wear full STR on a native -40acc WS to having to put on full racc for barrage? Do you then use the same barrage racc set for your second slug shot? The quip post by the other guy swaps out heca harness and flame ring for skadi and behemoth, meaning essentially, you're gaining about +60 racc from your slug shot to barrage. Are you really telling me feint loses 60acc power in 5-10 seconds? I think not.

The fact is you quoted my post which had nothing to do with thf/rng and talked only about barrage and then continued to talk about something completely different. But if you want to go back to talking about thf/rng then lets go for it.

As Shamaya has said too, you can have feint and sushi and still suck for racc.
Feint isn't insta-capped acc if your skill/acc is low to start. Yes, you can have 246 skill with 8 merits, and yes, you can add a futher 12 skill from gear. But whilst we're talking about that 12 skill: Why would you use Faith Torque? PCC is better. Ditto for Gun Belt and Buccaneer's Belt. Gun belt will give 5 Att and 4-or-5 Acc. Buccaneer's 4Str and 7Racc is better in every way. Torque will probably give 6racc and 7ratt, and 4racc from PCC will be better than 7Ratt.

So we'll ignore those 12 skill points because they are gained through bad gear choices.

So. 246 Skill. Let's say you have 71Agi, +22 from traits. And for gear, let's take this set, posted above:
fire staff / axe grip /
skadi's mask / light gorget(Faith for barrage) / triumph *2
Hecatomb body (skadi's for barrage)/ skadi's hands / rajas / flame (behemoth for barrage)
amemet / bucaneer's belt / skadi's legs / hecatomb feet

Gorget is 10Racc. Culverin is -10Racc, so we'll cancel those out. Slug shot @100%TP is -40Racc. The only Racc you have is 9AGI from skadi and +21 from skadi/bucc and gorget/pcc.

We'll assume squid sushi, 15% Racc, and we'll assume Kirin for the mob, who is level 92.

First let's figure out your Racc. 200+(46*0.9)+(80/2)+22+21= 324 (.4). +Sushi's 15% is (47) is 351. -10 from culverin and +10 from PCC/gorget cancel out, and we have -40 from slug. Sharpshot is an unknown increase, but we'll assume +40 to negate slugshot's penalty. That's 351 Racc. Just for refference now, 351 racc is 66% on a Lv82 Greater Colibri.

A Lv82 Colibri gives you a -28 acc penalty through level correction. Kirin is Lv92, 17 levels above you. that means you'll have a -68 penalty through level correction. If Kirin had the same evasion as a colibri, you would have 47% hit rate. He doesn't, his evasion will be higher. He's a SMN, so let's assume he has E skill in evasion. Gaining 2 skill per level, or +20 skill over a colibri. or +18 eva (20*0.9). that means you're down another 9% acc.

So let's say you're now around 40% Racc with the above posted gear and sushi. To be capped racc, you're going to need Feint to give -105 Evasion bonus. Feint does not give 105 eva down.

This is just math, and estimates, but everything is accounted for. Level correction, gear, AGI, traits, sharpshot, merits, everything.

But if you will ignore this and say "you haven't tried it so you wouldn't know, feint is that powerful", then I'll leave you with this. Why, the time befor last we did Baha V2, where a leader messed up the bard rotation, and the Drk party ended up missing madrigal (SV 2 mad is 106 acc), yet feint was up, did the drks all still whiff with their Ridills and MKs?

Feint is not insta cap. You're going to be at 40% acc ish (if that:, kirin could have higher evasion) with sushi in the above gear (lifted from a post above) befor feint. That's 40% taking into account /rng acc bonus, sushi, snapshot, the lot.

Don't call me stupid and ignorant. I know how most sh*t works and from the way you gear barrage and the little you post about hit rate and feint, I evidentally know it a lot better than you.

Edited, Aug 28th 2009 9:11pm by Noodles
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#29Queen Noodles, Posted: Aug 28 2009 at 1:13 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) This doesn't matter much as Snapshot negates the distance:acc penalty, and Shamaya mentions whiffing a lot.
#30 Aug 28 2009 at 1:26 PM Rating: Good
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Wiki says the initial effect of feint is -50% evasion. So if that's true, it would indeed be at least +100acc. But that's wiki, so I'm not really going to instantly trust their numbers.
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#31 Aug 28 2009 at 2:02 PM Rating: Good
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Or is it 258 with Gun Belt and Faith Torque? (Hint: that's 11 skill points shy of an unmerited marksmanship RNG).

Hint: a naked unmerited RNG still has 2 ACC traits on you. He's also probably wearing clothes with stats on them in the slots where you are getting your skill.

You're kind of outing yourself as math-impaired when you focus on that skill number as if it closes the gap with RNG. Skill is just ACC and ATK, and you aren't nearly close to even an unmerited RNG.
#32 Aug 28 2009 at 2:44 PM Rating: Good
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Caesura wrote:
Quote:
Or is it 258 with Gun Belt and Faith Torque? (Hint: that's 11 skill points shy of an unmerited marksmanship RNG).

Hint: a naked unmerited RNG still has 2 ACC traits on you. He's also probably wearing clothes with stats on them in the slots where you are getting your skill.

You're kind of outing yourself as math-impaired when you focus on that skill number as if it closes the gap with RNG. Skill is just ACC and ATK, and you aren't nearly close to even an unmerited RNG.


Tha particlar comment was in response to an arguement that the idea was lol becuase thf has 220 Marskmanship skill (Base is 230 actually but I digress).

Not that thf was magically closing some gap with RNG. Just that within the realm of gear merits and feint, that we can close the acc deficiency gap that Noodles is arguing.

I have no interest in comparing THF to RNG or to SAM or to MNK or to any othe "Heavy DD"

I have no delusions that THF/anything is going to consistantly win zerg parses with the big boys.

But what frustrates me are statements like this.

Quote:
Your primary roles are feint and treasure hunter. You're kidding yourself if you think that you're there for damage


My friend, you lost all credibility with me on that statement.

Edited, Aug 28th 2009 7:33pm by ThiefKiller
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#33 Aug 28 2009 at 4:25 PM Rating: Default
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A greater colibri has 334/339 Evasion. Naked I have 285 Dagger skill and 108 H2H.

Checking Coli, needs 349 to con Low Eva (80.5%) (Dagger, Ohat/PCC/Homam Feet/Homam hands/Swift Belt). (Swapping Feet to Sniper's Ring checks neutral)

This is interesting in it's self, As with -24 through level correction, you should need 358 for 75% Acc right? (And thus 369 for 80.5%)? If that's right then Why does the mob check Low Eva with 20 acc less than that? Have I made a mistake somewhere?


Well, let's try and get back to the test. If feint is -50%, then the coli will have 167 Evasion, and I will need 175 Acc +12 (as feint lowers evasion, not evasion and level, so the lvl correction remains the same), or 187 Acc.

My H2H is 108, 80DEX, acc naked is 148. so +40Acc should make the mob con Low Evasion.

SH, PCC, OHat, Homam Hands/Feet should be enough. I will use life belt too, which will put me +10 over that.

So with this gear, empty handed with feint up, the same checked colibri should con low evasion. Even if I have made a mistake in the math, it will still con neutral evasion, I can't be that far off. Let's test.

Applying Feint, empty handed, with SA. 108 Skill, 80Dex and +50 Acc in gear exactly (10more than I should need)
:53 Feint applied
:54 Neutral Evasion
:48 Neutral Evasion
:03 Neutral Evasion
:06 High Evasion
:17 Hide
:22 Feint wears off

So let's try gearing for the High Evasion threashold, the same colibri. If I need 187 Acc for 80.5%, I will need 145 for 59.5%, so, I should get check neutral completely naked. let's test with +20 Acc.

With +20Acc:
:18 Feint applied
:20 Neutral Evasion
:23 High Evasion

A second test, This time I will equip a lone sniper's ring and no other acc gear. This is to counter any lag between the initial hit and the first check.

On the same mob:
:33 Applied
:35 Neutral Evasion
:37 High Evasion

This is interesting, whilst it seems I do innitially turn the mob to neutral evasion, which supports a -50% evasion boost. It seems I jump from neutral to high evasion at the same speed in both cases, even though I have 20acc more in the first instance.

Once more, completely naked (now with 110 skill, skillup ftl), feint (applied through SA in every instance):
:09 Applied
:09 High Evasion
:11 High Evasion

This is such a much more bodge job that I had hoped for, so I'm going to spoiler all the above and post the following, which is concise enough. Theres a 5acc difference between it innitially conning neutral eva or not.

With feint up, Lv81 colibri
150 Acc (110 skill, 80 dex) = low evasion
155 Acc (+sniper) = neutral evasion

We know hit rate: When Player_Acc = Mob_Eva, Hit rate= 75% +(mob_level/2)%

Let's say 155 Acc gives 60% hit rate on a mob 6 levels above the player. Then 185 Acc will give 75%, meaning the mob wlll habe 185-24 Evasion, or 161 Evasion. (That correct?)

That means feint is giving either static -170 Eva, OR 52% decrease. The latter being more likely.

My numbers may be off, and I'm still confused as to why the mob checks Low Eva 20acc lower than it should in the innitial dagger test, but it does seem that feint gives a reduction of 50% eva.

However, what confuses me is whilst my Neutral-Low tests seemed to prove this, my high-neutral tests did not at all. Maybe I did not check fast enough originally? Repeated again, using more acc than should be required to con low evasion, and it still never conned high evasion.

I'm lost. This is such a bodged post, but hey. I tried.

Edit: I'm also confused why all our ridill drks can't hit **** without madrigal AND feint. NQ madrigal is enough, but without mad compltely they are useless.

Edited, Aug 29th 2009 12:32am by Noodles
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#34 Aug 28 2009 at 4:28 PM Rating: Default
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ThiefKiller wrote:
Quote:
Your primary roles are feint and treasure hunter. You're kidding yourself if you think that you're there for damage


My friend, you lost all credibility with me on that statement.
I'm sorry but it's completely true. In terms of raw damage, a Drg, War, Sam, Drk, Rng all have higher potential output. If Thf didn't have feint or treasure hunter, why would you invite one over an equally geared war/sam/drg/drg/rng/etc? You wouldn't.
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#35 Aug 28 2009 at 5:07 PM Rating: Excellent
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Decided to look over the math. lol I’m not very good so correct me if I am wrong here.

Naked Racc from skill and traits:

Marksmanship Merited THF

200 + .9*46 = 241 + 22 = 263

Unmerited RNG

200 + .9*69 = 262 + 48 = 310

+47 Racc on THF

Marksmanship Merited RNG

200 + .9*85 = 276 + 48 = 324

+61Racc on THF

Racc form AGL between the 2 jobs is going to be within a negligible margin and both have sharp shot.

So a naked RNG has a native 47-61 Racc over a THF

I have never personally done any testing on how strong feint is or isn’t. Wiki quotes Feint as being -50% mob evasion. Other tests I have read have claimed it to be least 50-60. Either way, feint is potent enough to close that Racc deficiency on a naked fully merited marksmanship ranger.

The issue of gear. We can wear a lot of the same gear. But I’m sure that certain pieces would tilt the scale a bit in favour of RNG.

The issue of Ratt. At the time of a zerg, mobs are going to be debuffed all to **** and you will also be crazy attack buffed. So then with food, on the issue of crazy evasive mobs you can use pot-au-feu. Ones that aren’t so evasive you can eat meat dishes.

But we aren’t really competing with Rng damage on this, just our own dagger damage. The main reason I prefer it is because our dagger WS’s are limited to being stacked in most fights. And on many of them you can’t SAWS because of spike flail. So being able to pump out 3 strong WS plus barrage plus a few fully geared TA and SA has always appealed to me.

The point of this was never to say that THF/RNG is the LEEEETEST LEET OGWFBBQ zerg DD there ever was or that we were better than (whatever job) at zerg DD. The point of this is that if we are going to be there for feint and TH already, we should also maximize damage. There are many fights where THF/RNG can achieve this, and many where I’m sure it probably couldn’t.

I have never tried this on Kirin (I’m not sure how this debate became centered on him). But I have done ACP Zergs, Nyzul bosses, Dynamis Lord and a few others with impressive results.

Maybe it doesn’t work on Kirin or Bv2? I have never seen it or tried it. I cannot comment. I don’t think that means it cannot be effective elsewhere.
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#36 Aug 28 2009 at 5:14 PM Rating: Default
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ThiefKiller wrote:
And on many of them you can’t SAWS because of spike flail.
What the **** are you zerging that can spike flail?

Brb. drk zergin faf.
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#37 Aug 28 2009 at 5:16 PM Rating: Excellent
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Queen Noodles wrote:
ThiefKiller wrote:
Quote:
Your primary roles are feint and treasure hunter. You're kidding yourself if you think that you're there for damage


My friend, you lost all credibility with me on that statement.
I'm sorry but it's completely true. In terms of raw damage, a Drg, War, Sam, Drk, Rng all have higher potential output. If Thf didn't have feint or treasure hunter, why would you invite one over an equally geared war/sam/drg/drg/rng/etc? You wouldn't.


Thats completely not true. But more importantly its not the point either.

No one is arguing that a thf is the highest DD job in the game.

Most of the zergs I have been in that have caused wipes were because one too many DD went down or the mob lived past a CS stun. When every job is maximizing their damage, this doesn't happen as much.

If you can apply TH and Feint, contribute to damage and then Accomplice PD that DRK and tank for a while, that makes you very useful. If you are just there to apply th, feint and go look up internet **** I would kick you in a heartbeat.

Edited, Aug 28th 2009 11:51pm by ThiefKiller

Edited, Aug 29th 2009 1:41am by ThiefKiller
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#38 Aug 28 2009 at 5:27 PM Rating: Excellent
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Queen Noodles wrote:
ThiefKiller wrote:
And on many of them you can’t SAWS because of spike flail.
What the **** are you zerging that can spike flail?

Brb. drk zergin faf.


Personally? Mostly Nyzul Bosses.
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#39 Aug 28 2009 at 6:03 PM Rating: Default
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So you want to take thf/rng to nyzul?
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#40Queen Noodles, Posted: Aug 28 2009 at 6:13 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Most of your zergs probably fail because you're in a **** ls who let people use stupid combos like thf/rng. The only mobs that should outlive your CS stunner are einherjar bosses. If you're in a shell that's new to zerging, then don't only bring one rdm/drk.
#41 Aug 28 2009 at 7:53 PM Rating: Good
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Queen Noodles wrote:
ThiefKiller wrote:
Queen Noodles wrote:
ThiefKiller wrote:
Quote:
Your primary roles are feint and treasure hunter. You're kidding yourself if you think that you're there for damage


My friend, you lost all credibility with me on that statement.
I'm sorry but it's completely true. In terms of raw damage, a Drg, War, Sam, Drk, Rng all have higher potential output. If Thf didn't have feint or treasure hunter, why would you invite one over an equally geared war/sam/drg/drg/rng/etc? You wouldn't.


Thats completely not true. But more importantly its not the point either.

No one is arguing that a thf is the highest DD job in the game.

Most of the zergs I have been in have caused wipes because one too many DD went down or the mob lived past a CS stun. When every job is maximizing their damage, this doesn't happen as much.

If you can apply TH and Feint, contribute to damage and then Accomplice PD that DRK and tank for a while, that makes you very useful. If you are just there to apply th, feint and go look up internet **** I would kick you in a heartbeat.

Edited, Aug 28th 2009 9:21pm by ThiefKiller
Most of your zergs probably fail because you're in a sh*t ls who let people use stupid combos like thf/rng. The only mobs that should outlive your CS stunner are einherjar bosses. If you're in a shell that's new to zerging, then don't only bring one rdm/drk.

And I am still completely right. Your primary role is, and always will be, feint and TH. You deciding to maximize your damage doesn't make that any less true. I did not say your only role is feint/TH, I said your primary role is feint/TH. There is no other reason to bring a thf over another equally geared/skilled Drg/Drk/Mnk/War/Sam/Rng. Why do you think you never see two thieves in a zerg?

You have an aweful lot of opinionated views, and call me an idiot a lot, for someone that has failed "most" of their zergs. Maybe try listening to the advice from someone who's LS zerg 2-4 Baha V2s or Kirins per run, regularly kill KV without full alliance and do einherjar twice weekly with enough success that the only reason it takes us longer than three runs ever between odins is lack of people online during the summer.


Lol I meant most of the zergs that I have seen wipe. Not that most of my zergs wipe. And yes I do take thf/rng to nyzul for boss floors. And yes princess, you are an idiot lol.

Edited, Aug 28th 2009 11:54pm by ThiefKiller
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#42 Aug 29 2009 at 5:37 AM Rating: Excellent
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For the records, I've outdamaged other jobs when zerging on thf. You can't only compare to "equally geared" jobs, because then you're living in a fantasy world. As well when not zerging, but still killing stuff like kirin in ~7 minutes and cerberus znm, and doing odin, etc I've outdamaged other jobs on thf. Our primary roles may be what you say they are, but we do do a lot of damage if we try.

Edited, Aug 29th 2009 9:38am by Deadgye
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#43 Aug 29 2009 at 6:20 AM Rating: Default
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That may be true, however if you have a good linkshell, I think it's not to hard to be able to compare yourself to equally geared players.

And if you're talking about TP Burning a mob, not zerging, and taking 5-10mins to do it, then at that point Thf/Rng becomes useless as feint only lasts 30 seconds and after that you wont land ****.

Quote:
Lol I meant most of the zergs that I have seen wipe. Not that most of my zergs wipe.
Quote:
Most of the zergs I have been in have caused wipes
Smiley: dubious
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ArsDraconis wrote:
Ultima spends 10 whole seconds shouting "I'MA FIRIN MAH LAZER" like a 2004 valkurm melee waiting for SC
#44 Aug 29 2009 at 9:48 AM Rating: Decent
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Queen Noodles wrote:
That may be true, however if you have a good linkshell, I think it's not to hard to be able to compare yourself to equally geared players.

And if you're talking about TP Burning a mob, not zerging, and taking 5-10mins to do it, then at that point Thf/Rng becomes useless as feint only lasts 30 seconds and after that you wont land sh*t.


Which is why I said its only for Zergs, works well in certain situations and probably doesn't work well in others.

Thf can use plenty of sub jobs and be effective. I'm sure many of us on these boards have out damaged the "heavy DD's" in the game in almost every situation at one point or another. (I have raped SAMs MNKs WARs on Thf/Rng ZOMG)

And as you said its not because a THF has a higher potential to DD, but because a good player that can truly maximize THF damage is going to put out a relevant contribution to damage, whether he is outparsed by some other job that has put for a similar efort is unimportant and irrelevant.

I have a real problem with this mentality that 2 hander DD's are gods among men simply becuase of the weapons they use. I have seen more sh*t geared and sh*t performing SAMs than ones that mad me truly go "Wow...he's good."

I suspect that even if we didn't have feint and TH in zergs we'd still be there on a lot of fights to plant that hate staple on the tank. I almost wish it was this way (Not that I don't love TH and Feint) so that it would force more THVs to put a better effort into their dd builds. But we can use accomplice too on a drk or someone that took too much hate, pop PD and then lighten the load for a bit.

Just to say that TH anf FEINT are not the only useful tools in the THF toolbox.

Edited, Aug 29th 2009 1:53pm by ThiefKiller
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#45 Aug 29 2009 at 9:51 AM Rating: Decent
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Queen Noodles wrote:
Quote:
Lol I meant most of the zergs that I have seen wipe. Not that most of my zergs wipe.
Quote:
Most of the zergs I have been in have caused wipes
Smiley: dubious


Thats right princess I neglected to type the word "that" right before have.

Congratulations you just won the internet.

/CHEER

Edited, Aug 29th 2009 1:52pm by ThiefKiller
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#46 Aug 29 2009 at 11:32 AM Rating: Good
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Queen Noodles wrote:
Quote:
Lol I meant most of the zergs that I have seen wipe. Not that most of my zergs wipe.
Quote:
Most of the zergs I have been in have caused wipes
Smiley: dubious


Noodles wrote:
however if you have a good linkshell Thf/Rng becomes useless as feint only lasts 30 seconds and after that you wont land sh*t.


Hay look I can do it too.
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#47Queen Noodles, Posted: Aug 29 2009 at 1:39 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) So you mean "Most of the zergs I that have been in have caused wipes"? or "Most of the zergs I have been in that have caused wipes"?
#48 Aug 29 2009 at 1:42 PM Rating: Excellent
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Sheesh I can't believe I read this entire thread, I don't know what's up with Noodles but you kinda need chill my friend.
Queen Noodles wrote:
ThiefKiller wrote:
Queen Noodles wrote:
ThiefKiller wrote:
Quote:
Your primary roles are feint and treasure hunter. You're kidding yourself if you think that you're there for damage


My friend, you lost all credibility with me on that statement.
I'm sorry but it's completely true. In terms of raw damage, a Drg, War, Sam, Drk, Rng all have higher potential output. If Thf didn't have feint or treasure hunter, why would you invite one over an equally geared war/sam/drg/drg/rng/etc? You wouldn't.


Thats completely not true. But more importantly its not the point either.

No one is arguing that a thf is the highest DD job in the game.

Most of the zergs I have been in have caused wipes because one too many DD went down or the mob lived past a CS stun. When every job is maximizing their damage, this doesn't happen as much.

If you can apply TH and Feint, contribute to damage and then Accomplice PD that DRK and tank for a while, that makes you very useful. If you are just there to apply th, feint and go look up internet **** I would kick you in a heartbeat.

Edited, Aug 28th 2009 9:21pm by ThiefKiller
Most of your zergs probably fail because you're in a sh*t ls who let people use stupid combos like thf/rng. The only mobs that should outlive your CS stunner are einherjar bosses. If you're in a shell that's new to zerging, then don't only bring one rdm/drk.

And I am still completely right. Your primary role is, and always will be, feint and TH. You deciding to maximize your damage doesn't make that any less true. I did not say your only role is feint/TH, I said your primary role is feint/TH. There is no other reason to bring a thf over another equally geared/skilled Drg/Drk/Mnk/War/Sam/Rng. Why do you think you never see two thieves in a zerg?

You have an aweful lot of opinionated views, and call me an idiot a lot, for someone that has failed "most" of their zergs. Maybe try listening to the advice from someone who's LS zerg 2-4 Baha V2s or Kirins per run, regularly kill KV without full alliance and do einherjar twice weekly with enough success that the only reason it takes us longer than three runs ever between odins is lack of people online during the summer.
I beleive the point he is making is not that "I'm not coming for TH I'm coming to zerg as thf/rng!", I think it's more like "if I'm going to come thf I might as well pump out as much possible damage as I can".

Then you've gotta realise that since your LS is a very, very good linkshell, with well geared and educated players you don't really need the THF's to be zerging because you have it covered by your DRK's, SAM's and such. Maybe, just maybe, some linkshells in FFXI don't have unlimited amounts of heavy DD. Maybe some linkshells do have a RNG party because RNG is all they have, maybe for some linkshells having a thf/rng pumping out a few k's of extra damage can save them in a fight. Some zergs come down to the wire, I know this because I've zerged as DRK in a shell previously not used to much zerging. I know I've also seen mobs die with a sliver of HP left, if you are in the kind of linkshell that only just scrapes through with a zerg-victory, a THF actually making an effort to do as much as they can is a lot better than the THF who thinks they are Feint/TH/Melee it for a bit.

So lets maybe rerail this with some maths on what thf/rng can do compared to thf/war with Mandalic Stab in zerg situation. Any volunteers?

* Nevermind, now I take notice of your display pic plus above nitpicking, argument for the sake of argument, carry on.

Edited, Aug 29th 2009 9:44pm by LordFaramir
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drk = 80 sam = 76
pld = 79 thf= 80
nin = 80 drg = 75
mnk = 76 war = 52

Retired for now ^ ***** you Abyssea. FFXIV woo eh..
milich wrote:
buttfucking
#49 Aug 29 2009 at 1:45 PM Rating: Good
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1,064 posts
Queen Noodles wrote:
ThiefKiller wrote:
Queen Noodles wrote:
Quote:
Lol I meant most of the zergs that I have seen wipe. Not that most of my zergs wipe.
Quote:
Most of the zergs I have been in have caused wipes
Smiley: dubious


Thats right princess I neglected to type the word "that" right before have.

Congratulations you just won the internet.

/CHEER

Edited, Aug 29th 2009 1:52pm by ThiefKiller

So you mean "Most of the zergs I that have been in have caused wipes"? or "Most of the zergs I have been in that have caused wipes"?


Yeah pretty much everything I touch turns to fail.

Every Zerg I have ever been in I have personally caused a wipe of the entire alliance....and the death of a few people that weren't even there.

I'm so good at being bad I'm known fer it.

But I am glad you took the time out of your busy leet schedule to school me. I will remain forever in your debt.
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Nebo
THF99/BRD99
#50Queen Noodles, Posted: Aug 29 2009 at 1:49 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Hmm, I can't even remember what that quote was in refference to without looking up, but it doesn't really support me anymore. Still, I have no toruble admitting it's contradictory, I don't feel the need to get butthurt and say NO BUT I MEAN THIS INSTEAD OMG YOU'RE SUCH A NOOB QQQQQQQQ
#51Queen Noodles, Posted: Aug 29 2009 at 1:50 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) np, any time. I hope you have learnt the errors of your ways.
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