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#1 Aug 20 2009 at 8:04 AM Rating: Decent
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I've recently the good fortune of both relic hands and skadi hands. I'd like to primarily TP with the skadi, but at the same time, not lose the benefit of TH4. My question is, at what point does TH kick in - during the fight as hate is generated or am I ok as long as the relic hands are equipped at kill/drop point.

I apologize in advance if this info is covered in the stickies, I couldn't find it.

Thanks.
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#2 Aug 20 2009 at 8:09 AM Rating: Decent
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tsumarione wrote:
I've recently the good fortune of both relic hands and skadi hands. I'd like to primarily TP with the skadi, but at the same time, not lose the benefit of TH4. My question is, at what point does TH kick in - during the fight as hate is generated or am I ok as long as the relic hands are equipped at kill/drop point.

I apologize in advance if this info is covered in the stickies, I couldn't find it.

Thanks.


Square Enix has said that it acts like a debuff and when applied sticks until it dies or goes yellow (loses hate).

We speculate that having th4 on when you first get hate and then switch to better dagger and hands that the highest level of TH will still apply.

We really don't know 100% for sure but this is the general consensus.

Edited, Aug 20th 2009 12:09pm by ThiefKiller
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#3 Aug 20 2009 at 8:15 AM Rating: Decent
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That ^ only I switch to TH gear at the end of the fight.
#4 Aug 20 2009 at 2:21 PM Rating: Default
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ThiefKiller's post suggests equipping th4 for your first action, I'd always assumed it worked as TaruMalphius suggested.

Guess I'll just equip>unequip>requip for kill.

Oh, and to the OP: Don't TP in Skadi hands. Just don't.
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#5 Aug 20 2009 at 8:49 PM Rating: Decent
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Queen Noodles wrote:
ThiefKiller's post suggests equipping th4 for your first action, I'd always assumed it worked as TaruMalphius suggested.

Guess I'll just equip>unequip>requip for kill.

Oh, and to the OP: Don't TP in Skadi hands. Just don't.


This. If I'm fighting odin I'll start the fight in thief's knife and *** armlets and then after I hit it or ws it I'll switch to sirocco and homam. If I'm in something like limbus or dynamis I just full time *** armlets/thief's knife in my tp set because it's not worth it to keep switching for every single mob.
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#6 Aug 28 2009 at 8:45 AM Rating: Good
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What they said. People take the 'debuff' thing too literally sometimes, but it is a decent way to think of it.

Since we don't have access to the game code and there is no commentary, the only thing that could bring conclusion to this matter would be thousands of kill samples taken in parallel. Something that is unlikely to ever happen.

So forever more it'll likely be that: equip -> unequip -> re-equip
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#7 Aug 28 2009 at 10:35 AM Rating: Good
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Shamaya wrote:
What they said. People take the 'debuff' thing too literally sometimes, but it is a decent way to think of it.

Since we don't have access to the game code and there is no commentary, the only thing that could bring conclusion to this matter would be thousands of kill samples taken in parallel. Something that is unlikely to ever happen.

So forever more it'll likely be that: equip -> unequip -> re-equip


Smiley: dubious

Quote:
Q: Do multiple instances of Treasure Hunter in a single party increase the chances of a drop? When exactly does the effect of Treasure Hunter take place?
A: When more than one member has Treasure Hunter, the player with the strongest version will have theirs take effect for the party. The effect comes into play as soon as the Thief generates enmity from the target enemy. Even if the Thief dies, the effect remains.
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#8 Aug 28 2009 at 11:00 AM Rating: Good
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The One and Only Deadgye wrote:
Shamaya wrote:
What they said. People take the 'debuff' thing too literally sometimes, but it is a decent way to think of it.

Since we don't have access to the game code and there is no commentary, the only thing that could bring conclusion to this matter would be thousands of kill samples taken in parallel. Something that is unlikely to ever happen.

So forever more it'll likely be that: equip -> unequip -> re-equip


Smiley: dubious

Quote:
Q: Do multiple instances of Treasure Hunter in a single party increase the chances of a drop? When exactly does the effect of Treasure Hunter take place?
A: When more than one member has Treasure Hunter, the player with the strongest version will have theirs take effect for the party. The effect comes into play as soon as the Thief generates enmity from the target enemy. Even if the Thief dies, the effect remains.


Which is in and of itself very sketchy. We assume the highest version means with Knife and Hands on. But they could very well mean TH2>TH1. And they don't say that even if you take the equipment off, the effect remains.

It is a reasonable hypothesis. There is equipment in this game where the added bonus remains in effect when you remove them...on the other hand there are many that don't.

But theres really no way we can know for sure for sure....until someone comes out and asks them this in an interview....hint hint

Edited, Aug 28th 2009 3:02pm by ThiefKiller
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#9 Aug 28 2009 at 11:05 AM Rating: Decent
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I want to keel you, even though I know you're being sarcastic. Smiley: lol
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#10 Aug 28 2009 at 11:07 AM Rating: Good
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The One and Only Deadgye wrote:
I want to keel you, even though I know you're being sarcastic. Smiley: lol
The One and Only Deadgye wrote:
I want to keel you, even though I know you're being sarcastic. Smiley: lol


/hide
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#11 Aug 28 2009 at 10:54 PM Rating: Good
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Sorry it was like 5am when I wrote that.

I could be more well-read (at least time-wise) into this subject than anyone. A great portion of the TH article on (other)wiki are my own edits.

What I meant is that there is no commentary sufficient enough to answer this concern specifically. It is the case however based on the commentary we do have, that we know our TH value is registered when we meet the conditions, either co-conditional or separately, that some amount of enmity must held against the target mob, and that an action must be performed on the mob itself.

Looking as carefully as possible at the commentary and assuming nothing more than is clear, we've arrived at the conclusion that we don't know the answer to the OP's question. And that is because there is no specific commentary on that subject. As if being careful not to assume to much was enough of a problem, we also have to remember that these commentaries are translated. This causes imprecise communication, such as the use of the word "party" as opposed to specifying any group of people who are able to access a treasure pool after a mob has been killed (ie an alliance, etc), which I checked up on my own personal testing (1, 2)back when. And if those weren't problems enough we have to remember we're dealing w/ SE. They're hard to trust -.-
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#12 Aug 29 2009 at 5:30 AM Rating: Good
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It seems pretty obvious to me that you only have to hit the mob or something similar once with th4 equipped, and then it stays on. Smiley: rolleyes
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#13 Aug 29 2009 at 10:51 AM Rating: Good
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That is because you assume too much.
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#14 Aug 29 2009 at 11:30 AM Rating: Good
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Says it pretty clear as day right when the effect is applied~
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#15 Aug 29 2009 at 6:48 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
The effect comes into play as soon as
Hmmm idkkkkk... Otherwise if it was that obvious, I don't think the vast majority of people would be that uncomfortable that they would find themselves equipping th4 at the end of the fight and making OP's with this very same question over and over.

We do know if you die, the effect will remain. That much is good and supports your contention. But it is far from 'evidence', so to speak (maybe I'm just so picky and precise because I'm a philosophy grad). Likewise, people feel uncomfortable zoning, dropping from ally, or moving out of exp range--for fear that this will "remove" said "debuff." It's understandable; the game could easily keep tabs on your 'current TH value' for affected mobs in real time, only beginning to take such tabs as soon as you (1)have some enmity on the mob, and (2)have performed an action targeted on the mob. Or it could simply calculate drops at the end of the fight, using the list of PC's having enmity on the mob and the highest TH4 value at the time within that given pool of PC's. Both of these scenarios would be fully consistent with SE's (semi-reliable)(translated)(offered under limited time constraints) statements.
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#16 Aug 30 2009 at 12:59 AM Rating: Good
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If the effect could wear off that simply, or was calculated by you needing to have hate on the mob when it died, then "even if the thief dies, the effect remains" would not be true. The statement that "The effect comes into play as soon as the Thief generates enmity from the target enemy." is flat out saying that TH will be applied the moment you generate enmity on the target. Combine both of these statements with the statement that higher level TH overwrites lower level TH, and everything I've said isn't really an assumption.

Everybody is just superstitious, if I can I still like to end the battle with th4 on even though it doesn't matter. Just like with crafting I face the correct directions even though it doesn't matter. But you can't take peoples personal superstitions and use them to base assumptions on how th works.

Edited, Aug 30th 2009 5:00am by Deadgye
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#17 Aug 30 2009 at 9:10 AM Rating: Good
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I understand what you're stating are some reasonable assumptions. I don't think people would say they aren't. Just a difference between assumptions and knowledge. Everyone constantly refers to this 'debuff style' theory all the time though.

I'm just used to dealing with logical assessments such that arguments like,
P: I think,
C: Therefore, I am
, are considered ambiguous and/or crummy.

"comes into play" doesn't flat out say anything much. But in any event, what of the old commentary where being out of exp range meant that there was no TH. This was a long time ago. Was it a trash GM commentary? Or an actual SE commentary? I can't remember, it's been so long and it's 2am and I don't have the link.

Edited, Aug 31st 2009 3:16am by Shamaya
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#18 Sep 13 2009 at 9:33 PM Rating: Decent
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Someone will belive it someone wont and equip TH at the end of battle.

I personally prefer to "just be sure" and equip TH just before battle ends. It dosnt cost much(merely a few TP), so why dont do it :)


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