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Math question, Sirocco KukriFollow

#1 Aug 19 2009 at 3:11 PM Rating: Decent
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Please forgive me for posting this question as i saw an answer to it in a previous post a long time ago. I had a very hard time finding the answer again so im reposting.

I am under the impression that the amount of hp being healed back to a Puk mob from sirocco kukri is more than made up from the low delay of the dagger. I did isnm on thf and used sirocco, should i have used another dagger? I got a lot of **** for the mob spamming tp moves on us, which i tried to explain had nothing to do with the dagger, and that i would take it off if everyone was gona complain.

In any case, i ended up starting some drama because someone tried to tell me to "stand back and spam bolts, your thf is worthless in here". I got really really mad at that comment. Very angry. I have put a lot of time/merits/gil into thf, and i love the job, i pride myself on playing it to the very best of my abilities. When someone tells me that im worthless in ISNM because im healing the mob, or feeding too much tp, i got pretty **** This person was on blm at the time, and then stated "oh i have thf at 75, i hate the job and barely play it". Umm ok, so then your an expert? Grrrrrr sorry for the rant.

Long story short, me and 2 friends did isnm, i went thf cause it was geared, and one friend said he didnt have a lot of time, so i didnt bother changing to mnk. Were on the 4th run, and we wipe. Yes i know, very sad, but i suppose happens. So we get up and start resting and the comments start. My 2 friends start joking about how the sirocco is making the puk go crazy with tp moves. Im sitting here thinking, wth. Then the blm starts in, starts saying how im curing the mob and i made the party wipe from the mob spamming tp moves.

I'd like to point out a few things, 1. nobody had haste, the sam ( my friend) told me afterwards he didnt care about shaddows or anything cause he wasnt hasted. The bard was quick on songs up until the last time we needed it, he lagged out, the baby puks split and the blm's aga missed half of them. So we wipe. Not to mention, after the sam went down, we couldnt pull the puk off the blm cause he's back there dropping blizz IV's like he's got manafont up all day.

Blm says to me "just stand back and spam bolts, we'll kill the puk". "Thf is worthless in here". "I have thf at 75" bla bla bla.

In any case, i really really really want to know, am i wrong about sirocco. I allready know the run was not lost because of a dagger. If im wrong about sirroco, im wrong. The drama i started came on the 6th run when the blm told me to just stand back and spam bolts. So i responded by telling him if he could get on his thf and outparse me in any event, meripo, isnm, w/e, i'd pay him 1m. Same for his blm against mine, and his mnk against mine as well. He directly shut his mouth and offered a weak appology. In any case, i was a drama queen in front of friends, and i hate that i was. But i wont sit there and hear **** from someone who lvl'd the job for lolTH3 and farming, never plays it, quote "hates" the job, but then wants to tell me how to play it. Its ppl like him that give the thf community such a bad rap, and part of the reason ppl think lolthf for events. Anyways, sorry, /rant off, i swear.

So, math on sirocco? ill post my gear/merits if needed.
#2 Aug 19 2009 at 3:32 PM Rating: Default
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179 posts
just read that post i put up, and to be honest, im sure the dagger did give it more tp than a higher delay dagger. But obviously was not responsible for our wipe. Just wana know about the hp being healed back, and if i should go with another dagger. Only other one i had on me was Th3 dagger. thank you.
#3 Aug 19 2009 at 3:39 PM Rating: Excellent
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29,167 posts
My rule is just don't use Sirocco vs. puks on Windsdays.
#4 Aug 19 2009 at 3:50 PM Rating: Default
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179 posts
Wasnt windsday, which i know makes a diff. Any math wizzes on the delay being worth the few hp healed back?
#5 Aug 19 2009 at 5:09 PM Rating: Excellent
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3,775 posts
There isn't any math needed to be said on the issue.

Quote:
Blm says to me "just stand back and spam bolts, we'll kill the puk". "Thf is worthless in here". "I have thf at 75" bla bla bla.


Your black mage is an idiot. Most likely HIS thief is sub par thus leading to his ill founded belief. If you EVER do nothing but "spam bolts at a mob" you're a waste of space. Don't ever ever EVER do that in a fight you SHOULD BE MELEEING in (hint, if it's not a god that has wicked tp moves like fafnir or etc, this is the case). Plus TP enters this fight with you. Oftentimes when I'm about to finish one round if I end up with close to 100% or a bit over I'll save it for the next go and open with an SATA Assassin's charged + Hidden weaponskill. As seen below, those are quite nice.

Screenshot


All competent thieves will contribute well in DoT and weaponskill damage, and the hate control aspect really helps in this battle as does the ability to assist with evasion tanking. We do just fine with or without sirocco. The thing about sirocco kukri is that its damage 26 should be hitting the mob for more than it heals, so even if it recovers 12-17 damage on average if you cause 20-25 damage on average you still end up inflicting more damage than you heal. The Boreus Mantle attack that puk uses (the one where it spawns its copy images) is not a tp attack at all, but rather a timed attack. It uses it in 90 second intervals, so once every 90 seconds you'll get copies. The increased tp gain of the blau/sirocco combo is a really strong benefit, and whenever I party with other thieves I don't care if they use sirocco or not. Since I have x's I can use that myself, but I don't ever object to the sirocco.

Long story short, if the paltry amount of HP healed by the sirocco kukri was enough to ruin the fight you were going to lose anyway. Just an FYI, even if you heal 20 hp every swing and have strong haste you'll still heal less than 1000 damage before the battle ends (this is only a 5 minute fight or so, by then you either win or wipe), and this ignores the actual damage the dagger inflicts. You were fine.

Edited, Aug 20th 2009 11:10pm by Melphina
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#6 Aug 19 2009 at 7:17 PM Rating: Good
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You could have just buy a that 3k dagger with evasion down(forgot name o.o) to sub with just for that fight. Anyway I know a retarded thf can ruin that fight because of the low damage, but a good thf who knows the dos and donts are really awesome in that fight. Helping to tank is a bonus, Accomplice/Collaborator makes us tank even better.
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#7 Aug 19 2009 at 9:20 PM Rating: Good
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Haletxamehk wrote:
You could have just buy a that 3k dagger with evasion down(forgot name o.o) to sub with just for that fight. Anyway I know a retarded thf can ruin that fight because of the low damage, but a good thf who knows the dos and donts are really awesome in that fight. Helping to tank is a bonus, Accomplice/Collaborator makes us tank even better.
Magnet knife.
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...draining with sambas is kind of like you smack the thing and as you smack blood flies out... normally the blood would just you know fall and be red an what-not, but, with the samba your all whacked out and decide to drink the blood as it flys out. thus not adding MORE damage just taking more advantage of your damage. at least thats my take on it.
#8 Aug 20 2009 at 5:50 AM Rating: Good
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People are always looking for a scapegoat when an undertaking goes poorly. Very rarely is the 'downward spiral' to a wipe due to any single melee (AOE WSes in mob sleep situations are about the only time this happens and when's the last time you saw that happen? :P)

I've done that fight many times with THF (sometimes I've been the THF, sometimes others have been the THF) and things have gone just fine. I don't even remember if I used SK or not as that wouldn't be a big deal either way.

However, if I were participating in that fight on THF with any people I didn't know, I'd use something other than my SK for two reasons:

1) The puk NM does have reasonably high defense (compared to merit mob puks) and thus the delta between the damage the SK was doing and healing it was causing is less. I'm a big fan of using the SK in Bhaflau Thickets due to the fact that the puks are really just in the way at that camp and what you really want are the mamools--for which SK is definitely a great offhand dagger choice.

2) To avoid this situation. Don't give people a reason to whine and complain. It's too easy to just use another dagger.

#9 Aug 20 2009 at 8:54 AM Rating: Decent
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951 posts
Quote:
Magnet knife.

Magnet knife gives the THF evasion -10 (if that's what he meant...) and the mob the effect of being Weighed down, not evasion down. Only the Adder Jambiya and +1 give the mob the effect of evasion down (that I know of) and they are FAR FROM 3k in price, lol.
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#10 Aug 20 2009 at 9:00 AM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
Magnet knife.

Magnet knife gives the THF evasion -10 (if that's what he meant...) and the mob the effect of being Weighed down, not evasion down. Only the Adder Jambiya and +1 give the mob the effect of evasion down (that I know of) and they are FAR FROM 3k in price, lol.


Gravity has the side effect of lowering evasion by 10.

Wiki agrees

Quote:
Gravity:

* Spell accuracy is most highly affected by Enfeebling Magic Skill, Magic Accuracy, and INT.
* Some Notorious Monsters will build up a resistance to this spell if it is cast repeatedly on them. This resistance wears off over time.
* The effect of Weight not only reduces movement speed, but lowers Evasion as well.
* The amount of Evasion lowered is 10.
See the Talk page for more details.


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#11 Aug 20 2009 at 10:14 AM Rating: Decent
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879 posts
Mistress Melphina wrote:

Your black mage is an idiot.


This.

Explains it all.
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#12 Aug 20 2009 at 11:26 AM Rating: Decent
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951 posts
Quote:
Gravity has the side effect of lowering evasion by 10.

Did not know that actually. Should have known Mel would have the right answer, lolz.

Thanks Melphina!
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Khael of Lakshmi
Galka Beastmaster
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BST90/THF90/WAR90/BLM77/MNK66/DRK65/NIN62/PLD50/WHM50/RDM50/BLU50/DRG50/SAM50/DNC50/RNG43/SMN40/
ToAU 22/WoTG 4- Help Me Out!
Diabolos Fight- Help Me Out!
#13 Aug 20 2009 at 12:30 PM Rating: Decent
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179 posts
Thank you everyone, Melphina, i follow a lot of your posts when im looking for something, and they are allways either great math, or very sound advice, so thank you as well. Again i appologize for this long post, in the future, ill just take the dagger off to avoid morons. Thank you guys, makes me feel a lot better. I just get so worked up when ppl insult thf.
I was thinking about our argument, and i remember him saying its only good for TH, i think that was my breaking point, or one of them. Thus all the drama. I kinda went overboard in the arguement, and at one point offered him 1m if he could out dmg my thf vs his. I also offered him 1m to out dmg my blm also vs his. Told him to put his money where his mouth was, and he quickly shut up. Even offering an appology to me, at which point i ignored him, ran out of range of his d2 at the end of the fights and warped myself. I was kinda being a jerk, but whatever. Thank you guys for your advice on SK.
#14 Aug 21 2009 at 5:52 AM Rating: Decent
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Hahahah, ya, that sounds a little infantile, but at least you realize it after the fact. ;)

The -10 evasion on gravity is a pretty big deal. I first saw it used regularly in a few JP exp parties (way back when) and thought it was a good idea to allow the tank a little more time to establish hate before the mob would go after the mages, but thought it was just a tad pricy MP wise.....then I found out about the evasion down and couldn't for the life of me figure out why NA RDMs didn't use it.

Sure, it's a 45 second or so recast (with fast cast), but back then it means you could cast it 3 times on the IT++ mob you were fighting in an XP party before it died. :P
#15 Aug 21 2009 at 9:49 AM Rating: Decent
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127 posts
If it makes you feel better, I got called a "light DD" when someone was shouting for Watchful Pixie fights.
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