With good augs Fane/Blau IS better than any other combo.Follow

Hello all. In the recent weeks you've been wondering what it would take to make Fane Baselard/Blau Dolch superior to x's/blau or Blau/sirocco. I have a pretty good idea, and a few augmentations shown already fit the bill. What you need.

D + 6 -- The damage + 6 is a big deal. It gives base damage 33.
Accuracy + ~~~ 6-10 (preferably 8-10)

I posted the math breakdown on another thread, but this is a discussion separate from there so it warrents its own thread. I can see this becoming a big deal on its own so better to not mix the two topics. That will keep from derailing two thoughts at once, and make the current discussion easier to find. I'll simply copy/pastega the math.

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The below is my tp set with my current augments and an example with Fane of damage + 6 and accuracy + 10. This augment has happened and is documented, and is REALLY powerful. Notes and considerations on having less accuracy and a weaker tp set are also included in my discussion.

Fane Baselard, Blau Dolch, Fire Bomblet
Anwig Salade, Love Torque, Brutal earring, Suppanomimi
Mirke Wardecors, Homam Monopolas, Toreador's Ring, Rajas Ring
Forager's Mantle, Swift Belt, Skadi's Chausses, Homam Gambrieras




Now look at what that does.
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Accuracy:
Accuracy from dagger skill -- 282 (this includes torque and 8/8 merits)
Dex with 3 merits is 102 -- 51
Accuracy from gear --65

Total Accuracy -- 398!!!
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Speed Enhancement:
Haste -- 15%
Dual Wield -- 8%
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Damage oriented:
Strength -- 12 (this includes the -1 str augment on toreadors)
Attack (including that from strength)-- 48
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Concequently, that 398 accuracy is the CAP on level 81 greater lolibris with no help from food or outside buffs. Because it fits so perfectly, they make the best example for this math and I'll use them as my guinea pigs once more.

In terms of DoT Fane/Blau at 33/33 with fSTR of 5 is 38 damage a hit, so then it's just a matter of DoT. With 15% magic haste and the gear I listed the fane/blau will have a delay of 196.196, or 1100 rounds/hr. That's 2728 swings given the 2.48 multiplier of double/triple activation.

X's/blau will get average base damage 38.5 per swing, and its delay is 379. Thus after the same speed of magic haste + gear you get a delay of 204.281, meaning 1057 rounds, or 2621 swings with double/triple activation. Now for the rest of the equation.

I'll just use the simple example of level 81 birds. With x's/blau my accuracy will be 5% less, so I'll have only 90% accuracy rather than 95%. With store tp + 13 you get 5.1 with fane/blau (this rounding was very bad, at 5.198 but still favors the combo), whereas X's/blau will get 5.3 per hit after store tp. I'm going to ignore attack boosts of a bard for this, but added attack will favor the speedier combo (IE: Fane/blau)

My attack in both combos will be 457, giving cRatio of 1.097, and average pDIF of 1.066. Simple enough

Fane/blau combo will see

38 x 2728 x 0.95 x 1.066 === 104,980 DoT
2728 x 0.95 x 5.1 == 12,521 TP

X's/Blau combo will then see

38.5 x 2621 x 0.90 x 1.066 == 96,811 DoT
2621 x 0.90 x 5.3 == 12,502 TP

In my example Fane/Blau's TP gain is identical in every sense of the way even with the unfavorable store tp rounding. The accuracy boost is a big factor to this. However, its DoT is 8,169 MORE than x's/blau.

Critical damage considerations:

Can the difference of criticals in X's/blau make that up? I really don't think so. In melee DoT x's/blau will average a critical to 91 damage, whereas Fane/blau will average to 78. In melee DoT that's a difference of 13 per critical, so even at capped 24% crits that's 51,569 versus 48,830 giving 2739 damage, leaving the ability crits to make up 5430 damage, and they just won't do that. Even at base damage 180 that's still 415 damage with x's versus 371 without, so 54 damage each critical.

Crit math in melee DoT

X's/blau
38.5 x 2621 x 2.366 x 0.9 x 0.24 == 51569

Fane/Blau

38 x 2728 x 2.066 x 0.95 x 0.24 == 48830

Difference: 2739

Crit math in abiility

180 x 2.366 == 425 (x's)
180 x 2.066 == 371 (fane)

difference -- 54 damage each


Final considerations on mechanics:

The final considerations are as follows. First: Critical hit rate will NOT be capped in melee DoT. With 102 dex I'll still be at the ~~~12-16% mark. Second, accuracy is weighted with much greater value when you start with less. Even in a perfect tp set my accuracy just hits the cap on level 81 birds, won't be capped on level 82 or mamool, and that's 5% accuracy in dancing edge that I won't have with x's/blau (and most people WON'T have this kind of tp set..like 99.9% will see bigger gains from the accuracy). Finally when my average damage per swing on DE is near 100 that REALLY adds up over time. Consider even 80 weaponskills by 6 swings each. That's 24 more swings landing because of Fane, and that's gonna add up to another 2400+++ base damage striking the mark. This is a very LOW number of weaponskills without multi proc for the calculation as well... in practice it's going to be a much bigger number,
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SUMMARY: Fane Baselard with Damage +6 and a high accuracy increase (preferably 8-10) IS an upgrade from the x's/blau and Blau/sirocco when dual wielding. FFor me such to the point it allows me to eat coeurl subs no matter what I go to, and the accuracy is a very welcome addition to multi hit ws as well. You just need a good enough augment. (Yeah, ok. it's rare. But it's in there, and if you get it you win).

Edited, Aug 11th 2009 12:11am by Melphina

The TP acculation is almost exactly the same, and this is a good thing for comparison imo. We can see how much more damage we can expect from WS with X's/blau, and how much more damage from SA/TA and attempt to factor that in a lot easier than in the X's/blau vs blau/sirocco case.

Your comparison is without a brd right melph? I'd like to see how much the DoT improves with one brd, and then with two. If I can get around to attempting to figure out the sa/ta and ws differences I know I'll be going for all 3 situations. I'd do it right now, but I'm dual box fishing in kuftal, lol. :3

Why wouldn't a thf's damage contribution matter? If they're hitting the mob they'd better be doing damage, or they're getting kicked from my party/linkshell.

I think most of us know this. When we're debating stuff like x's/blau vs blau/sirocco on colibri, we're only debating merit mobs and we know that things change drastically on other things. Even if after the SA/TA and WS damage consideration fane still completely dominates x's/blau I'm going to still advocate Mandau > X's > Blau > Fane > Sirocco, as a list of daggers to get and use because colibri aren't everything.

First to address your question with a straight answer; yes it's still going to be situational. I use my examples in my OP against colibri because they're a middlegrounds on targets you'll see as /nin. They aren't the strongest, but also not the weakest. I also throw out conceptual theorycrafting and give my set as an example so you can make logical judgments on what your own set would see. I can't know everyone's tp/ws sets, so by throwing out the concepts with examples it allows one to decide what kind of increases their own gear would get from said upgrades. By considering the differences of YOUR tp set versus MINE, then applying the concepts I explain of accuracy/attack and haste in the scenarios given, you can make logical and accurate guesses on what YOU will get out of gear changes. Basically I'm saying that I can't analyze everyones stuff but by throwing out the data and analysis on math it enables them to choose for themselves what's good and not for when they play. Now I'll elaborate on my own goal below.

A goal of mine is to try and get a tp set that's capable of eating meat on anything short of gods, basically a fulltime /nin meat setup (For reference, if I can do this I'm gonna eat a stronger meat, either bison steak or hedgehog pie or red curry buns when applicable). Now my OP has an accuracy of 398, but I can also swap my cuchulain's mantle for my foragers in both weaponskill and tp, granting a tp accuracy of 405. At mamool that should be enough to eat meat without much hassle (that's 2 accuracy short of the accuracy cap of level 82 greater colibri, so mamool will see the desired 85+%). Remember the old addage that you were never REQUIRED to cap accuracy, and the puks have flash-ga meaning parses can be thrown off a bit on actual accuracy. Also, with a 2 minute feint any ninja or thief mob won't last long, so I can just reserve it for those mobs only (I wouldn't need it for the mages or beastmaster or dragoons anyway).

Mamool ja are about the strongest non god target you will typically see as far as evasion goes, any farther is pushing it into higher level territory. With that said, I think they make for an accurate gauge. If you can eat meat and hit ~~85% accuracy on them then you've gotten a workable meat build anywhere as /nin. The exception would probably be northlands dynamis, but ice dynamis always had iits own considerations anyway (especially since mobs levels change as you go farher in), so those considerations will always remain the same.

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Some very strong augments have been reported.

Here and Here

The second one is in fact, right in the ballpark of what the discussion at hand is about.

I agree with all that's being said about merit vs end game vs non merit, but I disagree with the conclusion that it's not important to consider. I've completed my merits and I rarely see a merit camp, but when I do I usually end up at mamools rather than colibri. I merely use them as a gauge because their stats are known. My calculations aren't aimed at them anymore so much as the conceptual considerations for other aspects of our game.

If I can get an upgrade to my performance it gives me something to go after and a means to spend my time in game. A goal if you will. When you've already finished meriting and gotten most of what you want then pushing your boundaries becomes harder, so something like this is exciting to think about. It's not so I can kill birds faster (it hasn't been for over a year or two), especially since nobody cares about "ZOMG I PWN Merit mob 1.365% harder than you, I R 1337" like they used to. That would have been on a lot of peoples minds then, but that trend is mostly over.

I run these calculations because I enjoy them and because I enjoy the job. It's no secret by now that I enjoy every aspect of the thief job, and improving my performance is always a welcome addition. I like being able to contribute substantially to whatever events I attend, and being able to eat bison steaks or red curry buns on anything that isn't a god when /nin while maintaining a strong DoT and ws set makes me a useful party member that can be relied upon. It's not about kicking merit mobs tushies so much as it is being a well rounded, competent player in my job. The fact that I use merit mobs as a gauge just makes it easier to scale comparisons up and down with your own gear sets and what situations you're actually going to be facing.

Edited, Aug 11th 2009 12:39am by Melphina

On tougher mobs than Colibri, there are more considerations than some minute percentange more swing speed and sj /nin. I like Azoth (which I haven't picked up yet) for Trick Attack and its other nicely packaged benefits. Everything else is academic for me outside of possibly P.Harpe or some other introduced dagger.


Anyways, carry-on, maybe someone will correlate single/dual-wield dagger damage into a succinct chart.

Just becuase I'm curious, exactly what gear did you use for evisc/de, and how did you factor in the critical damage bonus.

Why would you not be using pizza on mobs that don't eat your food?

Edited, Aug 12th 2009 5:50am by Lobivopis

I'm going to separate this thought from my last post because while similar in relevance it's a different thought. Namely that even WITH Marinara Pizza +1 the fane baselard with good augs can improve peoples game. Pizza and sushi run on percentile gains, meaning they still have intrinsic limitations based on how much accuracy you already have. If your tp set is a lot weaker than mine and has, for example, only 345 accuracy then adding 11% accuracy from HQ pizza will take you to 382 accuracy, and this still won't cap most targets as /nin. Not everyone is a career thief or has dagger merits, and even then you still need accuracy gear. To put it in perspective

----Mithra base dex == 80 so that's 40 accuracy
----With 8/8 dagger merits you get 285 skill, meaning 276 accuracy.
----Not everyone is a mithra. The maximum difference is mithra 80 versus elvaan 70 and that's not a big deal after you've played a while. But when you JUST hit 75 you can really feel every bit of accuracy you lack, and 2.5% can really hurt for the newer 75's.

In my mithra example though that's still only 316 accuracy with full dagger merits (without those it'll be only 308). At this point adding both haste and accuracy without homam is tough (Remember, many of us use dusk gear before homam which gives attack rather than accuracy), and not everyone has a blau and fire bomblet and all those cool toys some of us do. That's FINE if they rarely play the job, and for the young thieves who recently hit 75 and haven't had time to get all the things some of us have this is a very GOOD way to help close the gap in the meantime. The fight in Grauberg {s} isn't hard per-se, you just need a good group and (a lot of) luck on the augment. I never expect anyone to have the best, and even with pizza there can be room for accuracy upgrades. If that ends up being the case then the fane example in my OP would give the same boosts to them with pizza as it would to me in my meat oriented build.

Edited, Aug 12th 2009 7:05am by Melphina

Preliminary testing shows that evisceration grants a ~15% crit chance boost at 100tp iirc, so I'd use a 40/60 split.

Also, I meant specifically what gear because I know my alla profile isn't up to date and I don't think melph has posted her ws gear in this thread. I have no clue at all what numbers you're using. For WS gear, try calculating it with something like bomblet / heca / love / pixie / hollow / skadi / heca / rajas / thunder / cuch / warwolf / heca / heca. That's what I use right now, except brutal instead of pixie and voyager instead of heca. :/

That 24/76 split was for DoT, not WSes.

Also, I looked at the thread here that was the testing for Evis's crit rate boost and couldn't see any real decision as to whether it's a 10% or 15% boost yet.

I'll redo the WS numbers later (like, after work).

@ Noodles: What Meldi and Banalaty have said is true. The Damage/Delay ratio of fane with damage + 6 is very good, and there have been reports of some startlingly good augs. If you take the augment with D +6 accuracy +9 and subtle blow +6, and replace subtle blow with triple attack +1% even if you reduce accuracy by a few that's still going to rival blau.

It's been said by people on more than a few occasions that blau is so good if they could dual wield them they could never dream of any better (non relic) dagger combo. The DoT rating with D +6 delay 186 is really strong, and whereas 5 accuracy versus 16 attack isn't quite the same, it's close!! Add in 1-2% triple attack and you've effectively got a second blau in power, just running on slightly different lines of performance.

Now on the note of triple attack, I'd like to think that the augment affect's both hands equally. I can't say without any data if that's the case though, but I can say this. If you got a Fane with D +6, accuracy + even 5 and triple attack +2 that would demolish x's/blau. It's such a drastic increase it dwarfs x's knife in a shadow. And if it DOES affect both hands even moreso, and that also goes to weaponskills!! Not that getting an augment like that would necessarily need any LESS luck than getting x's mind you, but for a power like that if you do get it it's gonna be your bread and butter. With potential like that I can't help but be excited. The thought of dual wielding a second knife with blau dolch-like power is enough to make anyone drool.

Edited, Aug 12th 2009 5:35pm by Melphina

Well, Blau is about 11% more DoT than X's, even when you factor in the crits for X's and not for Blau. A Fane with +6 dmg and +10 acc would be probably about 9-10% more DoT than X's.

I think a Fane with +5 Damage +10 acc would still even be a significant increase over X's. Significant enough to switch to fane/blau instead of X's blau.

With a high enough accuracy boost amd another good mod even D +5 would be worth it. It's only ONE base damage in weaponskill for crying out loud. That's not a lot when you consider that our weaponskills already have huge mods (my gear adds over 50 base damage in dancing edge from secondary mods alone). There's also the consideration that fane may or may not be a higher weapion rank. I'd like to believe it's weapon rank 3 because it isn't a latent effect, but without any evidence or data that's nothing more than my own thoughts.

Still, the two daggers I linked to are both well balanced. I'd dual wield either of them with blau in lieu of x's/blau. D +6 and accuracy + 9 (with subtle blow + 6), and D +5, accuracy 10 and triple attack +1 (<3 <3 the TA) are both worthy of replacing x's/blau. They just have crazy DoT, and the fact that the accuracy boosts transfer to weaponskills doesn't hurt either.

EDIT: While it may be obvious I'm still going to add that since the Fane Baselard is Aug/ex and not rare/ex you can hold more than one. Meaning you can try the fight until you get an aug you really REALLY like. If you think a new aug is an upgrade to your existing one take it and throw the old one out. The only limitations are time and gil, and of course luck. I've been doing one or two fights a week, and I'll probably keep with that for a while. One day I may be pleasantly surprised.

Edited, Aug 13th 2009 3:45pm by Melphina

If you have less than semi-elite/elite gear the improvements from one piece of gear are even larger.

You'd have to waste 30 bad dagger augments befor it'd cost you a blau dolch.

Got ToD Saturday night, popped after Aspid (@#%^ing dfeet), but no one to help so depopped. Opened 30min befor end of dyna. Run out after, is up and waiting, claim, kill, 1/1 Ahaha.

Then again, what SE giveth with one hand, it taketh with the other. Or rather, not takes, but gives you a million @#%^ing Dahaks on your nyzul runs you @#%^ing @#%^ @#%^ @#%^er @#%^

Depends entirely, but Pizza is pretty god tier food. I'd be inclined to think it'd win if it keeps your accuracy high.

(wrong thread ignore)

Edited, Aug 16th 2009 8:45pm by Lobivopis

I've read Most of what you've all talked about.. I'd like your opinion on my Fane dagger i just got.

Dmg+5 Acc+8 Triple attack+1

I took it and i'll probably re-do it later for a possible Dmg+6 ect ect.
But i just want your opinion on the one i DID get. I'm currently 0/30 on X's so if you think this is good enough until i augment a better one I would be quite pleased that i wont have to chase after that darn X's knife anymore... Thank you in advance.

Edited, Aug 24th 2009 6:27am by MalicFayt