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With good augs Fane/Blau IS better than any other combo.Follow

#1 Aug 10 2009 at 9:18 AM Rating: Good
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Hello all. In the recent weeks you've been wondering what it would take to make Fane Baselard/Blau Dolch superior to x's/blau or Blau/sirocco. I have a pretty good idea, and a few augmentations shown already fit the bill. What you need.

D + 6 -- The damage + 6 is a big deal. It gives base damage 33.
Accuracy + ~~~ 6-10 (preferably 8-10)

I posted the math breakdown on another thread, but this is a discussion separate from there so it warrents its own thread. I can see this becoming a big deal on its own so better to not mix the two topics. That will keep from derailing two thoughts at once, and make the current discussion easier to find. I'll simply copy/pastega the math.

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The below is my tp set with my current augments and an example with Fane of damage + 6 and accuracy + 10. This augment has happened and is documented, and is REALLY powerful. Notes and considerations on having less accuracy and a weaker tp set are also included in my discussion.

Fane Baselard, Blau Dolch, Fire Bomblet
Anwig Salade, Love Torque, Brutal earring, Suppanomimi
Mirke Wardecors, Homam Monopolas, Toreador's Ring, Rajas Ring
Forager's Mantle, Swift Belt, Skadi's Chausses, Homam Gambrieras


Quote:
Augmented items in my set:
****Fane Baselard**** -- Dmg +6, Accuracy + 10 (using the one quoted for exemplification)

Anwig Salade -- 10 accuracy + 5 attack, and 3% haste (could do the haste/str option too)
Mirke Wardecors -- 10 accuracy + 3% dual wield
Toreador's Ring -- dex +2, str -1, agi -1 (This is a personal augment, but since I have it I'm adding it since it's relevant to my set)

**** Means I don't have this, but since it's the discussion at hand this is my variable. So I'm making note of that.


Now look at what that does.
---------------
Accuracy:
Accuracy from dagger skill -- 282 (this includes torque and 8/8 merits)
Dex with 3 merits is 102 -- 51
Accuracy from gear --65

Total Accuracy -- 398!!!
--------------------------------
Speed Enhancement:
Haste -- 15%
Dual Wield -- 8%
-------------------------------------
Damage oriented:
Strength -- 12 (this includes the -1 str augment on toreadors)
Attack (including that from strength)-- 48
----------------------------------------------------

Concequently, that 398 accuracy is the CAP on level 81 greater lolibris with no help from food or outside buffs. Because it fits so perfectly, they make the best example for this math and I'll use them as my guinea pigs once more.

In terms of DoT Fane/Blau at 33/33 with fSTR of 5 is 38 damage a hit, so then it's just a matter of DoT. With 15% magic haste and the gear I listed the fane/blau will have a delay of 196.196, or 1100 rounds/hr. That's 2728 swings given the 2.48 multiplier of double/triple activation.

X's/blau will get average base damage 38.5 per swing, and its delay is 379. Thus after the same speed of magic haste + gear you get a delay of 204.281, meaning 1057 rounds, or 2621 swings with double/triple activation. Now for the rest of the equation.

I'll just use the simple example of level 81 birds. With x's/blau my accuracy will be 5% less, so I'll have only 90% accuracy rather than 95%. With store tp + 13 you get 5.1 with fane/blau (this rounding was very bad, at 5.198 but still favors the combo), whereas X's/blau will get 5.3 per hit after store tp. I'm going to ignore attack boosts of a bard for this, but added attack will favor the speedier combo (IE: Fane/blau)

My attack in both combos will be 457, giving cRatio of 1.097, and average pDIF of 1.066. Simple enough

Fane/blau combo will see

38 x 2728 x 0.95 x 1.066 === 104,980 DoT
2728 x 0.95 x 5.1 == 12,521 TP

X's/Blau combo will then see

38.5 x 2621 x 0.90 x 1.066 == 96,811 DoT
2621 x 0.90 x 5.3 == 12,502 TP

In my example Fane/Blau's TP gain is identical in every sense of the way even with the unfavorable store tp rounding. The accuracy boost is a big factor to this. However, its DoT is 8,169 MORE than x's/blau.

Critical damage considerations:

Can the difference of criticals in X's/blau make that up? I really don't think so. In melee DoT x's/blau will average a critical to 91 damage, whereas Fane/blau will average to 78. In melee DoT that's a difference of 13 per critical, so even at capped 24% crits that's 51,569 versus 48,830 giving 2739 damage, leaving the ability crits to make up 5430 damage, and they just won't do that. Even at base damage 180 that's still 415 damage with x's versus 371 without, so 54 damage each critical.

Crit math in melee DoT

X's/blau
38.5 x 2621 x 2.366 x 0.9 x 0.24 == 51569

Fane/Blau

38 x 2728 x 2.066 x 0.95 x 0.24 == 48830

Difference: 2739

Crit math in abiility

180 x 2.366 == 425 (x's)
180 x 2.066 == 371 (fane)

difference -- 54 damage each


Final considerations on mechanics:


The final considerations are as follows. First: Critical hit rate will NOT be capped in melee DoT. With 102 dex I'll still be at the ~~~12-16% mark. Second, accuracy is weighted with much greater value when you start with less. Even in a perfect tp set my accuracy just hits the cap on level 81 birds, won't be capped on level 82 or mamool, and that's 5% accuracy in dancing edge that I won't have with x's/blau (and most people WON'T have this kind of tp set..like 99.9% will see bigger gains from the accuracy). Finally when my average damage per swing on DE is near 100 that REALLY adds up over time. Consider even 80 weaponskills by 6 swings each. That's 24 more swings landing because of Fane, and that's gonna add up to another 2400+++ base damage striking the mark. This is a very LOW number of weaponskills without multi proc for the calculation as well... in practice it's going to be a much bigger number,
--------------------

SUMMARY: Fane Baselard with Damage +6 and a high accuracy increase (preferably 8-10) IS an upgrade from the x's/blau and Blau/sirocco when dual wielding. FFor me such to the point it allows me to eat coeurl subs no matter what I go to, and the accuracy is a very welcome addition to multi hit ws as well. You just need a good enough augment. (Yeah, ok. it's rare. But it's in there, and if you get it you win).

Edited, Aug 11th 2009 12:11am by Melphina
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#2 Aug 10 2009 at 9:47 AM Rating: Decent
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Has anyone actually made a D+6 acc+10 Fane yet? The chances of this seem abysmally small.
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#3 Aug 10 2009 at 10:35 AM Rating: Decent
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The TP acculation is almost exactly the same, and this is a good thing for comparison imo. We can see how much more damage we can expect from WS with X's/blau, and how much more damage from SA/TA and attempt to factor that in a lot easier than in the X's/blau vs blau/sirocco case.

Your comparison is without a brd right melph? I'd like to see how much the DoT improves with one brd, and then with two. If I can get around to attempting to figure out the sa/ta and ws differences I know I'll be going for all 3 situations. I'd do it right now, but I'm dual box fishing in kuftal, lol. :3
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#4 Aug 10 2009 at 1:35 PM Rating: Good
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One thing that seems to be lost with a lot of these calculations being thrown around lately, is that if you are finished with meriting, it's an entirely different ballgame. You're still going to likely want to grab as much acc as possible, but for those of us that achieved 200 or 300 or more merits for our various jobs and have capped out on all of them, these ultimate merit party gear comparisons are mostly semantic. Changes to the way a THF plays from Blau + X's/Blau + P. Harpe/Blau + SK if you don't have Mandau versus Blau + FB (Fane Baselard) on tougher endgame isn't going to make much difference. It's not often that you are limited to situations similar to greater colibri merit party camps, and when you are, you as a THF usually aren't the main source of damage. Not to mention you'll be (hopefully you are) equipping your Thief's Knife for at least a portion of the enemy's health.

That being said, I still want a DMG+6, Acc+10 Fane Baselard. A lot!!!
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#5 Aug 10 2009 at 2:26 PM Rating: Decent
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Why wouldn't a thf's damage contribution matter? If they're hitting the mob they'd better be doing damage, or they're getting kicked from my party/linkshell.
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#6 Aug 10 2009 at 4:13 PM Rating: Decent
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Drexis wrote:
Why wouldn't a thf's damage contribution matter? If they're hitting the mob they'd better be doing damage, or they're getting kicked from my party/linkshell.


I never said it wouldn't matter, I said if they are /nin to an endgame event, dualwielding Blau/Fane vs. Blau/PHapre-X's-SK isn't going to be a more than a minimal difference in contributory damage.
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#7 Aug 10 2009 at 4:23 PM Rating: Decent
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TheBarrister wrote:
Drexis wrote:
Why wouldn't a thf's damage contribution matter? If they're hitting the mob they'd better be doing damage, or they're getting kicked from my party/linkshell.


I never said it wouldn't matter, I said if they are /nin to an endgame event, dualwielding Blau/Fane vs. Blau/PHapre-X's-SK isn't going to be a more than a minimal difference in contributory damage.


I think most of us know this. When we're debating stuff like x's/blau vs blau/sirocco on colibri, we're only debating merit mobs and we know that things change drastically on other things. Even if after the SA/TA and WS damage consideration fane still completely dominates x's/blau I'm going to still advocate Mandau > X's > Blau > Fane > Sirocco, as a list of daggers to get and use because colibri aren't everything.
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#8 Aug 10 2009 at 7:15 PM Rating: Decent
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Not to downplay your posts but I would like to have a more in-depth look at it Melphina. I was just talking to my friends in game about your new set up and we all started bringing up the ifs and buts of thief.

Our main concern was that your set up was aimed at colibri and we'd like to find out how it stands when you are at other camps like the Mammol Ja camp and so on.

So basically my question is: Is that set up situational where you absolutely have to have the gear you went with and those mobs? Would our current favorite dagger combos outdo it in other situations?

I think I already know the answer but would love to have other people's input.
#9 Aug 10 2009 at 7:16 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
Our main concern was that your set up was aimed at colibri and we'd like to find out how it stands when you are at other camps like the Mammol Ja camp and so on.

So basically my question is: Is that set up situational where you absolutely have to have the gear you went with and those mobs? Would our current favorite dagger combos outdo it in other situations?


First to address your question with a straight answer; yes it's still going to be situational. I use my examples in my OP against colibri because they're a middlegrounds on targets you'll see as /nin. They aren't the strongest, but also not the weakest. I also throw out conceptual theorycrafting and give my set as an example so you can make logical judgments on what your own set would see. I can't know everyone's tp/ws sets, so by throwing out the concepts with examples it allows one to decide what kind of increases their own gear would get from said upgrades. By considering the differences of YOUR tp set versus MINE, then applying the concepts I explain of accuracy/attack and haste in the scenarios given, you can make logical and accurate guesses on what YOU will get out of gear changes. Basically I'm saying that I can't analyze everyones stuff but by throwing out the data and analysis on math it enables them to choose for themselves what's good and not for when they play. Now I'll elaborate on my own goal below.

A goal of mine is to try and get a tp set that's capable of eating meat on anything short of gods, basically a fulltime /nin meat setup (For reference, if I can do this I'm gonna eat a stronger meat, either bison steak or hedgehog pie or red curry buns when applicable). Now my OP has an accuracy of 398, but I can also swap my cuchulain's mantle for my foragers in both weaponskill and tp, granting a tp accuracy of 405. At mamool that should be enough to eat meat without much hassle (that's 2 accuracy short of the accuracy cap of level 82 greater colibri, so mamool will see the desired 85+%). Remember the old addage that you were never REQUIRED to cap accuracy, and the puks have flash-ga meaning parses can be thrown off a bit on actual accuracy. Also, with a 2 minute feint any ninja or thief mob won't last long, so I can just reserve it for those mobs only (I wouldn't need it for the mages or beastmaster or dragoons anyway).

Mamool ja are about the strongest non god target you will typically see as far as evasion goes, any farther is pushing it into higher level territory. With that said, I think they make for an accurate gauge. If you can eat meat and hit ~~85% accuracy on them then you've gotten a workable meat build anywhere as /nin. The exception would probably be northlands dynamis, but ice dynamis always had iits own considerations anyway (especially since mobs levels change as you go farher in), so those considerations will always remain the same.

-----------------

Quote:
Has anyone actually made a D+6 acc+10 Fane yet? The chances of this seem abysmally small.


Some very strong augments have been reported.

Here and Here

The second one is in fact, right in the ballpark of what the discussion at hand is about.

I agree with all that's being said about merit vs end game vs non merit, but I disagree with the conclusion that it's not important to consider. I've completed my merits and I rarely see a merit camp, but when I do I usually end up at mamools rather than colibri. I merely use them as a gauge because their stats are known. My calculations aren't aimed at them anymore so much as the conceptual considerations for other aspects of our game.

If I can get an upgrade to my performance it gives me something to go after and a means to spend my time in game. A goal if you will. When you've already finished meriting and gotten most of what you want then pushing your boundaries becomes harder, so something like this is exciting to think about. It's not so I can kill birds faster (it hasn't been for over a year or two), especially since nobody cares about "ZOMG I PWN Merit mob 1.365% harder than you, I R 1337" like they used to. That would have been on a lot of peoples minds then, but that trend is mostly over.

I run these calculations because I enjoy them and because I enjoy the job. It's no secret by now that I enjoy every aspect of the thief job, and improving my performance is always a welcome addition. I like being able to contribute substantially to whatever events I attend, and being able to eat bison steaks or red curry buns on anything that isn't a god when /nin while maintaining a strong DoT and ws set makes me a useful party member that can be relied upon. It's not about kicking merit mobs tushies so much as it is being a well rounded, competent player in my job. The fact that I use merit mobs as a gauge just makes it easier to scale comparisons up and down with your own gear sets and what situations you're actually going to be facing.

Edited, Aug 11th 2009 12:39am by Melphina
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#10 Aug 11 2009 at 11:35 AM Rating: Decent
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Fianlly got some time to go over the math a little bit, seems to be correct in showing fane being a little bit better than X's on colibri. Although I think we'd need to look into the "using evisceration over dancing edge if you have X's" thing to properly factor in weapon skills. ~.~

I'm wondering how fane/blau vs X's/blau on mamool would work though. Different food would be factored in though.. so I have no clue where the verdict would be.

Edited, Aug 11th 2009 4:00pm by Deadgye
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#11 Aug 11 2009 at 12:59 PM Rating: Default
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On tougher mobs than Colibri, there are more considerations than some minute percentange more swing speed and sj /nin. I like Azoth (which I haven't picked up yet) for Trick Attack and its other nicely packaged benefits. Everything else is academic for me outside of possibly P.Harpe or some other introduced dagger.


Anyways, carry-on, maybe someone will correlate single/dual-wield dagger damage into a succinct chart.

#12 Aug 11 2009 at 1:15 PM Rating: Decent
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The One and Only Deadgye wrote:
Although I think we'd need to look into the "using evisceration over dancing edge if you have X's" thing to properly factor in weapon skills.
Assuming CHR 65 and otherwise using your SA build for both WSes, Evisceration w/X's should land for around 2% more damage than DE w/Fane (so about 12 damage before the piercing bonus - call it 15 damage). You can, and will, see huge spikes on occasion - but you'll also see the rare no-crit Evis (which lands for about 400 damage :-D).

Numbers for "total damage", mostly based off of Melph's but with an average DE of 600 and an average Evis of 615: 203615 for Fane + DE, 202020 for X's + Evis.

Fane's still ahead by about 0.8%.
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#13 Aug 11 2009 at 2:17 PM Rating: Decent
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MDenham wrote:
The One and Only Deadgye wrote:
Although I think we'd need to look into the "using evisceration over dancing edge if you have X's" thing to properly factor in weapon skills.
Assuming CHR 65 and otherwise using your SA build for both WSes, Evisceration w/X's should land for around 2% more damage than DE w/Fane (so about 12 damage before the piercing bonus - call it 15 damage). You can, and will, see huge spikes on occasion - but you'll also see the rare no-crit Evis (which lands for about 400 damage :-D).

Numbers for "total damage", mostly based off of Melph's but with an average DE of 600 and an average Evis of 615: 203615 for Fane + DE, 202020 for X's + Evis.

Fane's still ahead by about 0.8%.


Just becuase I'm curious, exactly what gear did you use for evisc/de, and how did you factor in the critical damage bonus.
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#14 Aug 11 2009 at 11:46 PM Rating: Decent
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The One and Only Deadgye wrote:
MDenham wrote:
The One and Only Deadgye wrote:
Although I think we'd need to look into the "using evisceration over dancing edge if you have X's" thing to properly factor in weapon skills.
Assuming CHR 65 and otherwise using your SA build for both WSes, Evisceration w/X's should land for around 2% more damage than DE w/Fane (so about 12 damage before the piercing bonus - call it 15 damage). You can, and will, see huge spikes on occasion - but you'll also see the rare no-crit Evis (which lands for about 400 damage :-D).

Numbers for "total damage", mostly based off of Melph's but with an average DE of 600 and an average Evis of 615: 203615 for Fane + DE, 202020 for X's + Evis.

Fane's still ahead by about 0.8%.


Just becuase I'm curious, exactly what gear did you use for evisc/de, and how did you factor in the critical damage bonus.
Well, I can say that the one major assumption I made was that the gear you're using for SA is the same gear you're using for Evis/DE. (This probably isn't the case, is it? It seems like a good idea at first glance, especially if you're not trading out large quantities of acc+ for small quantities of DEX+.) Otherwise the assumption is Melph's gear.

The total-damage figures use a 24% crits, 76% non-crits ratio (so 76% of the initial damage figures in the OP + the crit damage figures in the OP); SA/TA are ignored (but probably don't make up the ~1600 damage difference).

Breakdown:

Fane (DE): DE 125*600 = 75000; DoT 0.76*104980 + 0.24*203461 = 128615
X's (Evis): Evis 125*615 = 76875; DoT 0.76*96811 + 0.24*214874 = 125146

Fane total: 203615 dmg/hr
X's total: 202021 dmg/hr

Less DEX reduces WS damage in both cases (the effect is stronger for Evisceration due to pDIF on crits being larger thanks to X's and due to DE having the 40% CHR mod as well), so this is actually a "trying to make X's win" scenario.

EDIT: changed wording in the last sentence because the original wording was stupid.

Edited, Aug 12th 2009 12:47am by MDenham
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#15 Aug 12 2009 at 12:47 AM Rating: Decent
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Why would you not be using pizza on mobs that don't eat your food?

Edited, Aug 12th 2009 5:50am by Lobivopis
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I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#16 Aug 12 2009 at 2:29 AM Rating: Good
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Lobivopis wrote
Quote:
Why would you not be using pizza on mobs that don't eat your food?


Maybe because meat is a stronger food if you don't require the accuracy from pizza? Marinara pizza's bonus to accuracy is 11%, and it gives 55 attack. That's nice, but coeurl subs add 75 attack and 5 strength (Hint, 5 str == 2.5 attack and base damage +1). It's stronger when the 11% accuracy isn't needed. Then you have the meat dishes which are even better still. We all know bison steak with its 6 strength mod (3 attack too), but to cap the 18% bonus you need 500 base attack so a bard or cor will be necessary. Still with a song my attack is high enough to see increases over subs, and weaponskill will see even more (my ws set is almost gonna cap that with one minuet).

There is also Hedgehog Pie

Relevant stats quoted from wiki
Quote:

* HP +55
* Strength +6
* Accuracy +5
* Attack +18% (Cap: 90@500 Base Attack)
* Ranged Attack +18% (Cap: 90@500 Base Ranged Attack)


Whaddya know, the same as bison steak but adds 5 accuracy. This is a 3 hour food, and with food duration sanction you'll get 6 hours. Well gosh, that's even MORE accuracy right there.

And we all know what red curry/red curry buns do.

Meat builds have ALWAYS been superior to builds that relied upon accuracy from the food if you could make them work. The difference of 1 base damage and 22-23 attack in going from pizza to subs alone is a big enough deal (20 attack is going to be about ~~ 8% increase in pDIF and that ignores the base damage increase). Now if you went a step further and capped out or came close to capping the attack of steak/hedgehog pie you can raise attack by 45 more (that's going to be about 17% pDIF increase, and THAT matters). And this again ignores the now 6 strength and consequent 3 attack from that. It also ignores 5 accuracy from the pie if you use that >.>

Marinara Pizza +1 is a NICE food, it's a really GOOD addition to the game. I would never knock anyone for using it if they needed to rely on it for accuracy (I've been using it for a year). You can call it a crutch if you want, but with the boosts it gives I call it playing smart. BUT, S-E has added a PHENOMENAL amount of accuracy to our repertoire in the past year and it's possible to break the dependency on accuracy from food entirely. If you can reach that plateau of gear you can eat a stronger attack food, and in that case the performance really increases.

In my earlier example I said I could swap cuchulain's mantle for my forager's mantle and get 405 accuracy, but if I added hedgehog pies that would be 410 accuracy. To put it in perspective level 82 (not 81) greater colibri cap at 407 accuracy, so it's 3 more than they need for maximum. That right there is how powerful a meat build our job can see.

Edited, Aug 12th 2009 6:41am by Melphina
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#17 Aug 12 2009 at 2:58 AM Rating: Good
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I'm going to separate this thought from my last post because while similar in relevance it's a different thought. Namely that even WITH Marinara Pizza +1 the fane baselard with good augs can improve peoples game. Pizza and sushi run on percentile gains, meaning they still have intrinsic limitations based on how much accuracy you already have. If your tp set is a lot weaker than mine and has, for example, only 345 accuracy then adding 11% accuracy from HQ pizza will take you to 382 accuracy, and this still won't cap most targets as /nin. Not everyone is a career thief or has dagger merits, and even then you still need accuracy gear. To put it in perspective

----Mithra base dex == 80 so that's 40 accuracy
----With 8/8 dagger merits you get 285 skill, meaning 276 accuracy.
----Not everyone is a mithra. The maximum difference is mithra 80 versus elvaan 70 and that's not a big deal after you've played a while. But when you JUST hit 75 you can really feel every bit of accuracy you lack, and 2.5% can really hurt for the newer 75's.

In my mithra example though that's still only 316 accuracy with full dagger merits (without those it'll be only 308). At this point adding both haste and accuracy without homam is tough (Remember, many of us use dusk gear before homam which gives attack rather than accuracy), and not everyone has a blau and fire bomblet and all those cool toys some of us do. That's FINE if they rarely play the job, and for the young thieves who recently hit 75 and haven't had time to get all the things some of us have this is a very GOOD way to help close the gap in the meantime. The fight in Grauberg {s} isn't hard per-se, you just need a good group and (a lot of) luck on the augment. I never expect anyone to have the best, and even with pizza there can be room for accuracy upgrades. If that ends up being the case then the fane example in my OP would give the same boosts to them with pizza as it would to me in my meat oriented build.

Edited, Aug 12th 2009 7:05am by Melphina
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#18 Aug 12 2009 at 5:57 AM Rating: Decent
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So then... is the boost from X/Blau to Fane/Blau worthwhile? Or is the combo "better" in the same way that "Dusk Gloves are better than Askar Manopolas", "Turban is better than Askar" and "Cletine is better than Thalassocrat with Drakesbane"?

By that I mean, is it technically better by a small enough margin that it probably doesn't actually matter and this is just theorycrafting.

Because I'm going to be completely honest, the epeen of X's/Blau combo outweighs 0.1% or whatever small damage increase you gain through Fane/Blau. It'd have to be properly noticably better for me to consider it if I had X's.

If I had X's/Blau I wouldn't waste time trying for Fane. It may be better, but if it's not by a worthwhile amount, then what's the point? All it'll do is mean on paper you will do more damage and in reality you will either do the same or an insignificant amount more which wont actually matter at all.

Edited, Aug 12th 2009 2:04pm by Noodles
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#19 Aug 12 2009 at 7:23 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
The total-damage figures use a 24% crits, 76% non-crits ratio (so 76% of the initial damage figures in the OP + the crit damage figures in the OP); SA/TA are ignored (but probably don't make up the ~1600 damage difference).


Preliminary testing shows that evisceration grants a ~15% crit chance boost at 100tp iirc, so I'd use a 40/60 split.

Also, I meant specifically what gear because I know my alla profile isn't up to date and I don't think melph has posted her ws gear in this thread. I have no clue at all what numbers you're using. For WS gear, try calculating it with something like bomblet / heca / love / pixie / hollow / skadi / heca / rajas / thunder / cuch / warwolf / heca / heca. That's what I use right now, except brutal instead of pixie and voyager instead of heca. :/
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#20 Aug 12 2009 at 9:48 AM Rating: Excellent
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Noodles:

Right now I don't think the question is "Is a fane with good augs a good sub for X's knife?" anymore. The real question is "can we get a fane that rivals blau?"

The Damage/Delay of a fane is so good with +6 aug damage, that with a good acc and +TA, it really rivals blau in DoT, which is so far ahead of both X's and Sirocco Kukri it isn't even funny.

Edit: -1 base damage, -15 delay, +4-5% Hit rate and +1-2% TA would far outweigh +10% crit damage.

Edited, Aug 12th 2009 12:51pm by Meldi
#21 Aug 12 2009 at 12:11 PM Rating: Decent
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The One and Only Deadgye wrote:
Quote:
The total-damage figures use a 24% crits, 76% non-crits ratio (so 76% of the initial damage figures in the OP + the crit damage figures in the OP); SA/TA are ignored (but probably don't make up the ~1600 damage difference).


Preliminary testing shows that evisceration grants a ~15% crit chance boost at 100tp iirc, so I'd use a 40/60 split.
That 24/76 split was for DoT, not WSes.

Also, I looked at the thread here that was the testing for Evis's crit rate boost and couldn't see any real decision as to whether it's a 10% or 15% boost yet.

I'll redo the WS numbers later (like, after work).
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#22 Aug 12 2009 at 12:23 PM Rating: Good
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I realize this is probably a silly question, but i thought about it today.

Are +TA% on weapons per weapon or add to our base stat. Like Heartsnatcher is +6% crit to just that weapon vs things like X's crits affecting both, stats like atk/acc/str etc affecting both weapons.

I know we only have that one lower lv dagger with TA+1%, but 2% TA on an already strong dagger would seal the deal if it affected your other hand as well. Do we know which way it works?

Edited, Aug 12th 2009 4:23pm by Banalaty
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#23 Aug 12 2009 at 1:32 PM Rating: Good
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@ Noodles: What Meldi and Banalaty have said is true. The Damage/Delay ratio of fane with damage + 6 is very good, and there have been reports of some startlingly good augs. If you take the augment with D +6 accuracy +9 and subtle blow +6, and replace subtle blow with triple attack +1% even if you reduce accuracy by a few that's still going to rival blau.

It's been said by people on more than a few occasions that blau is so good if they could dual wield them they could never dream of any better (non relic) dagger combo. The DoT rating with D +6 delay 186 is really strong, and whereas 5 accuracy versus 16 attack isn't quite the same, it's close!! Add in 1-2% triple attack and you've effectively got a second blau in power, just running on slightly different lines of performance.

Now on the note of triple attack, I'd like to think that the augment affect's both hands equally. I can't say without any data if that's the case though, but I can say this. If you got a Fane with D +6, accuracy + even 5 and triple attack +2 that would demolish x's/blau. It's such a drastic increase it dwarfs x's knife in a shadow. And if it DOES affect both hands even moreso, and that also goes to weaponskills!! Not that getting an augment like that would necessarily need any LESS luck than getting x's mind you, but for a power like that if you do get it it's gonna be your bread and butter. With potential like that I can't help but be excited. The thought of dual wielding a second knife with blau dolch-like power is enough to make anyone drool.

Edited, Aug 12th 2009 5:35pm by Melphina
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#24 Aug 12 2009 at 5:25 PM Rating: Decent
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Meldi wrote:
Noodles:

Right now I don't think the question is "Is a fane with good augs a good sub for X's knife?" anymore. The real question is "can we get a fane that rivals blau?"

The Damage/Delay of a fane is so good with +6 aug damage, that with a good acc and +TA, it really rivals blau in DoT, which is so far ahead of both X's and Sirocco Kukri it isn't even funny.
Except that you can still offhand Blau for it's great DoT. Fane goes to sh*t offhand, so for Fane to be worthwhile it HAS to have a DMG+6 augment just to make it usable with Blau, it's craptastic with X's, PHarpe or Mandau.

But still, could you give a simple "A is ##% more DoT than B" answer for Fane/Blau vs X's/Blau? Because again, if the difference is not that big, I would never even consider it if I had an X's/Blau combo.

Edited, Aug 13th 2009 1:27am by Noodles
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#25 Aug 13 2009 at 6:20 AM Rating: Good
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Well, Blau is about 11% more DoT than X's, even when you factor in the crits for X's and not for Blau. A Fane with +6 dmg and +10 acc would be probably about 9-10% more DoT than X's.

I think a Fane with +5 Damage +10 acc would still even be a significant increase over X's. Significant enough to switch to fane/blau instead of X's blau.
#26 Aug 13 2009 at 10:57 AM Rating: Decent
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But I'd assume in this case you'd have to deal with having a higher offhand DMG than mainhand...
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#27 Aug 13 2009 at 11:40 AM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
But I'd assume in this case you'd have to deal with having a higher offhand DMG than mainhand...


With a high enough accuracy boost amd another good mod even D +5 would be worth it. It's only ONE base damage in weaponskill for crying out loud. That's not a lot when you consider that our weaponskills already have huge mods (my gear adds over 50 base damage in dancing edge from secondary mods alone). There's also the consideration that fane may or may not be a higher weapion rank. I'd like to believe it's weapon rank 3 because it isn't a latent effect, but without any evidence or data that's nothing more than my own thoughts.

Still, the two daggers I linked to are both well balanced. I'd dual wield either of them with blau in lieu of x's/blau. D +6 and accuracy + 9 (with subtle blow + 6), and D +5, accuracy 10 and triple attack +1 (<3 <3 the TA) are both worthy of replacing x's/blau. They just have crazy DoT, and the fact that the accuracy boosts transfer to weaponskills doesn't hurt either.

EDIT: While it may be obvious I'm still going to add that since the Fane Baselard is Aug/ex and not rare/ex you can hold more than one. Meaning you can try the fight until you get an aug you really REALLY like. If you think a new aug is an upgrade to your existing one take it and throw the old one out. The only limitations are time and gil, and of course luck. I've been doing one or two fights a week, and I'll probably keep with that for a while. One day I may be pleasantly surprised.

Edited, Aug 13th 2009 3:45pm by Melphina
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#28 Aug 15 2009 at 7:55 AM Rating: Default
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you could get lucky and get a nice augmented dagger in a few tries or you could spend countless hours and gil and never get anything that would beat or match your current set up. depending on where you are at in this game and how bored you are it could be worth trying to get one and while i do appreciate people working out details and posting things, yes these statistics are always only about colibri and really who gives a sh*t about them? 1% of my time in game is spent meriting on colibris with my thf. 99% of the time i have 0 zero use for long winded theorycrafted math statistics using 1 persons semi-elite/elite gear vs mobs i really could care a less about.
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#29 Aug 15 2009 at 11:50 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
99% of the time i have 0 zero use for long winded theorycrafted math statistics using 1 persons semi-elite/elite gear vs mobs i really could care a less about.


If you have less than semi-elite/elite gear the improvements from one piece of gear are even larger.
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#30 Aug 15 2009 at 5:24 PM Rating: Default
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TybudX wrote:
Quote:
99% of the time i have 0 zero use for long winded theorycrafted math statistics using 1 persons semi-elite/elite gear vs mobs i really could care a less about.


If you have less than semi-elite/elite gear the improvements from one piece of gear are even larger.



which i understand completely. point is i wouldnt bother trying to get an augmented dagger(im happy with my set up) and i wouldnt advise other people to do it either unless they were at a point in the game with gear like melphina and some others of the same stature. the time and money put into trying to get an uber augmented dagger could end up costing more than a blau and time camping sirocco.
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#31 Aug 15 2009 at 5:33 PM Rating: Excellent
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You'd have to waste 30 bad dagger augments befor it'd cost you a blau dolch.
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#32 Aug 15 2009 at 5:52 PM Rating: Good
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Noodles wrote:
You'd have to waste 30 bad dagger augments befor it'd cost you a blau dolch.
Actually, you'd have to go through 150 bad augments (since you get five tries at it with each dagger).

So getting a good Fane is almost definitely less expensive than a Blau. (It's probably slightly more time-consuming than getting a SK on average.)
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#33 Aug 15 2009 at 6:25 PM Rating: Good
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Then again, what SE giveth with one hand, it taketh with the other. Or rather, not takes, but gives you a million @#%^ing Dahaks on your nyzul runs you @#%^ing @#%^ @#%^ @#%^er @#%^
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#34 Aug 15 2009 at 11:45 PM Rating: Decent
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I question whether sacrificing +haste for +ACC would be better than wearing 24% haste (homam + walmart hat + raparee harness + vbelt) and using pizza to make up the accuracy.




Edited, Aug 16th 2009 4:52am by Lobivopis
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I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#35 Aug 16 2009 at 3:37 AM Rating: Decent
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Depends entirely, but Pizza is pretty god tier food. I'd be inclined to think it'd win if it keeps your accuracy high.
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#36 Aug 16 2009 at 7:22 AM Rating: Decent
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I think it really will depend. 40Att is gonna give you around around 14% increase if you are at 400 att (Reasonable for Thf with 1 Minuet). With 400 Base att, that will require red curry (the % on Hedgehog Pie is too low, it will only give you +70ish)

Say 8/8 Dagger and 80 base dex and +27 gear acc:
Bomblet/Turban/Love/Suppa/Brutal
Rap/Homam/Sniper/Rajas
Amemet+1/Swift/Homam/Homam

That's 356 Acc. Add Pizza+1 and you get +44Acc +55Att. For 400Acc, 455Att, 22% Haste, -20% DW.

Swap to Anwig Salade, Mirke Wardecorsand, Cuch Mantle and Red Curry and you get +30ish Att -17ish Acc -6% Haste -3% DW.

Assume 1 March + Haste, dropping from 48 to 42% haste is about 11.5% loss (right)? gaining -3% DW is 3.8% increase, -17acc is about -8.5%ish loss adding 30att is about is about a 10% increase.
A CLEAR victory for the pizza combination.

For the meat (2nd) build to win, you'll want to lose no/very littler acc in swapping from one setup to the other, meaning you'll want to be over 80%ish Acc.

Very very very rough numbers, but I would think, with the right options, if you are over 80 (or say 85) % Acc, that going to cap in gear (Mirke/Salade, maybe cuch if not using already) and using red curry will win. If you want to use coeurl subs (which at 400att will give more att than bison or hedgehog pie) then the boost from att will prolly only be around 7%ish, and this will be basically equal the pizza setup: good for when you dont want to eat 3hr food.

So in short, very basic:
Low enough acc that pizza gives full(ish) +44): Pizza dominates
80-85+%Ish acc: subs + salade/mirke = pizza + turban/rap. If using red curry, curry wins
Acc cap: meat obviously wins.

Someone correct me if I'm way off but I think that sounds reasonable. (I assumed all daggers would remain constant).

Edit: And of course for things like Gods I would most definitely use pizza. Doesn't matter how much haste or acc you have if you hit for 0 half the time.

Edited, Aug 16th 2009 9:17pm by Noodles
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#37 Aug 16 2009 at 3:40 PM Rating: Decent
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(wrong thread ignore)

Edited, Aug 16th 2009 8:45pm by Lobivopis
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I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#38 Aug 23 2009 at 2:27 PM Rating: Good
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I just heard that the additional effect damage have a proc % of about 80-90% Can anyone confirm that for the dagger as well? I mean ice damage +15 would be pretty sweet then :o
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#39 Aug 24 2009 at 2:19 AM Rating: Decent
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I've read Most of what you've all talked about.. I'd like your opinion on my Fane dagger i just got.

Dmg+5 Acc+8 Triple attack+1

I took it and i'll probably re-do it later for a possible Dmg+6 ect ect.
But i just want your opinion on the one i DID get. I'm currently 0/30 on X's so if you think this is good enough until i augment a better one I would be quite pleased that i wont have to chase after that darn X's knife anymore... Thank you in advance.

Edited, Aug 24th 2009 6:27am by MalicFayt
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