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Maximizing SA/TA Damage (mathy mathy)Follow

#52 Aug 08 2009 at 5:21 PM Rating: Decent
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Some useful LJ links from when I asked about the worth of heca for solo JAs:
http://releenaseraph.livejournal.com/112302.html
http://releenaseraph.livejournal.com/114592.html

Edit:
Quote of importance:
Quote:
Kirschy posted on BG that haste and slow are not the same term, but are calculated separately. What this means is that slow is not as bad as it "should be."

Incorrect assumption: 1 * [1 - (.5 - .1)] = .6, or 10% slow was thought to decrease attack speed with 50% haste by 20%.
Actual: 1 * [1 - .5] * [1 + .1] = .55, or 10% slow decreases attack speed by 10% only.


Edited, Aug 9th 2009 1:26am by Noodles
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#53 Aug 08 2009 at 5:47 PM Rating: Decent
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EDIT NM already answered

Edited, Aug 8th 2009 10:53pm by Lobivopis
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I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#54 Aug 09 2009 at 5:13 AM Rating: Decent
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Noodles wrote:
Some useful LJ links from when I asked about the worth of heca for solo JAs:
http://releenaseraph.livejournal.com/112302.html
http://releenaseraph.livejournal.com/114592.html

Edit:
Quote of importance:
Quote:
Kirschy posted on BG that haste and slow are not the same term, but are calculated separately. What this means is that slow is not as bad as it "should be."

Incorrect assumption: 1 * [1 - (.5 - .1)] = .6, or 10% slow was thought to decrease attack speed with 50% haste by 20%.
Actual: 1 * [1 - .5] * [1 + .1] = .55, or 10% slow decreases attack speed by 10% only.


Thought so, I knew I read this somewhere but I couldn't find the source.

Now, let's do a math redo!

Main: Blau Dolch [DMG:33 Delay:178 Acc+5 Attack+16]
Sub: Sirocco's Kukri [DMG:26 Delay:150]
Range: -
Ammo: Fire Bomblet [Acc+6 Attack+6]
Head: Anwig Salade [Haste+3% Acc+10 Attack+5]
Neck: Love Torque [Dex+5 Dagger+7]
Ear1: Brutal Earring
Ear2: Suppanomimi [DW+5%]
Body: Homam Corazza [Acc+15]
Hands: Homam Manopolas [Acc+4 Haste+3]
Ring1: Rajas Ring [str+5 dex+5]
Ring2: Toredor's Ring [Acc+7]
Back: Cuchulain's Mantle [str+4 dex+4 acc+5]
Waist: Swift Belt [acc+3 attack-5 haste+4]
Legs: Skadi's Chausses [acc+4 attack+5 haste+2]
Feet: Homam Gambieras [acc+6 haste+3]

Level 82: Defense 327, Evasion 339, VIT 67, AGI 67
Coeurl Sub: Str+5 Agi+1 Attack+20(75)
1BRD: Attack+66 Haste+11%
haste: Haste + 15%

str: 62 + 9 + 5 [76]
dex: 80 + 14 [94]
attack: 8 + 292 + 38 + 27 + 66 + 75 [506]
Acc: 200 + 82 + 47 + 65 [394]
Haste: 15 + 11 + 15 [41]

fstr = 3
cratio = 1.197
pDIF:[Min = 0.936][Max = 1.436][Average = 1.186]
Acc% = 88.5
Base Damage = (33 + 3) && (26+3)

Attack Round = ((36 * 1.186) + (29 * 1.186)) * .885
= (42.696 + 34.394) * .885 = [68.22465]

Delay: (178+150) * .8 = 262.4; 262.4 * .59 = [154.816]

--------------------------------------------------

Main: Blau Dolch [DMG:33 Delay:178 Acc+5 Attack+16]
Sub: Sirocco's Kukri [DMG:26 Delay:150]
Range: -
Ammo: Bomb Core [Attack+12]
Head: Hecatomb Cap [Str+11 dex+5 Slow+9]
Neck: Love Torque [dex+5 dagger+7]
Ear1: Brutal Earring
Ear2: Pixie Earring [dex+3]
Body: Skadi's Cuirie [dex+8 attack+5]
Hands: Hecatomb Mittens [str+7 dex+4 slow+5]
Ring1: Rajas Ring [str+5 dex+5]
Ring2: Thunder Ring [dex+5]
Back: Cuchulain's Mantle [str+4 dex+4]
Waist: Warwolf Belt [str+5 dex+5]
Legs: Hecatomb Subligar [dex+8 attack+20 slow+12]
Feet: Hecatomb Leggings [str+6 dex+3 slow+4]

Level 82: Defense 327, Evasion 339, VIT 67, AGI 67
Coeurl Sub: Str+5 Agi+1 Attack+20(75)
1BRD: Attack+66 Haste+11%

Str: 62 + 38 + 5 [105]
Dex: 80 + 55 [135]
Attack: 8 + 292 + 52 + 53 + 66 + 75 [546]
Slow: 9 + 5 + 12 + 4 [30]
Haste: 0 + 15 + 11 [26]

fstr = 10
cratio = 1.319
pDIF1:[Min = 2.000][Max = 2.582][Average = 2.291]
pDIF2:[Min = 1.000][Max = 1.582][Average = 1.291]
Base Damage = (33 + 11 + 135) && (26 + 11)

Attack Round = (179 * 2.291) + (37 * 1.291) = (410.089 + 47.767)
= [457.856]

Delay: (328 * .85) = 278.8; 278.8 * .74 = 206.312;
206.312 * 1.3 = [268.2056]
-------------------------------------------------------

Main: Blau Dolch [DMG:33 Delay:178 Acc+5 Attack+16]
Sub: Sirocco's Kukri [DMG:26 Delay:150]
Range: -
Ammo: Bomb Core [Attack+12]
Head: Skadi's Visor [Dex+4 Attack+6 Haste+3]
Neck: Love Torque [dex+5 dagger+7]
Ear1: Brutal Earring
Ear2: Pixie Earring [dex+3]
Body: Skadi's Cuirie [dex+8 attack+5]
Hands: Enkidu's Mittens [str+4 dex+4]
Ring1: Rajas Ring [str+5 dex+5]
Ring2: Thunder Ring [dex+5]
Back: Cuchulain's Mantle [str+4 dex+4]
Waist: Warwolf Belt [str+5 dex+5]
Legs: Hecatomb Subligar [dex+8 attack+20 slow+12]
Feet: Enkidu's [Dex+3 Attack+4 Haste+2]

Level 82: Defense 327, Evasion 339, VIT 67, AGI 67
Coeurl Sub: Str+5 Agi+1 Attack+20(75)
1BRD: Attack+66 Haste+11%

Str: 62 + 18 + 5 [85]
Dex: 80 + 54 [134]
Attack: 2 + 292 + 42 + 63 + 66 + 75 [546]
Slow: 12 [12]
Haste: 5 + 15 + 11 [31]

fstr = 5
cratio = 1.319
pDIF1:[Min = 2.000][Max = 2.582][Average = 2.291]
pDIF2:[Min = 1.000][Max = 1.582][Average = 1.291]
Base Damage = (33 + 5 + 134) && (26 +5)

Attack Round = (172 * 2.291) + (31 * 1.291) = (394.052 + 40.021)
= [434.073]

Delay: (328 * .85) = 278.8; 278.8 * .69 = 192.372;
192.372 * 1.12 = [215.45664]

----------------------------------------------------------

Damage Difference from SA: (457.856 - 434.073) = [23.783]

Delay Difference: 52.74896

Damage Difference from Attack Round: (52.74896 / 154.816) = 0.340;
(.340 * 68.22465) = [23.196381]


The Hecatomb does better when it's supposed to be worse. I don't believe I've done anything wrong, but I do want somebody to check over it and make sure I didn't **** anything up. Smiley: lol The first thing that made me say "wait.. I don't trust this" about the list is "skadi = DH nq". 5 attack is not as good as 2dex for sa.

edit: Found a small pdif error, fixed it; numbers are closer by about .5 now.

Edited, Aug 9th 2009 12:24pm by Deadgye
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#55 Aug 09 2009 at 6:57 AM Rating: Good
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Well, id imagine if you stuck on that second march as Shamaya does in the OP it would tip towards non-heca set. Also, i didnt see you account for Triple/DA in your TP damage which would up that quite substantially making it weigh more heavily.(i think it comes out to some 24% avg increase to melee or something). Also, crits on melee etc. With these, it would be much closer if not completely reverse the result. However, I do like single march comparisons as that is what i usually have.
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#56 Aug 09 2009 at 7:01 AM Rating: Decent
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Would the second march make a differance against the hecatomb? See quoted section in last post.
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#57 Aug 09 2009 at 7:49 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Kirschy posted on BG that haste and slow are not the same term, but are calculated separately. What this means is that slow is not as bad as it "should be."

Incorrect assumption: 1 * [1 - (.5 - .1)] = .6, or 10% slow was thought to decrease attack speed with 50% haste by 20%.
Actual: 1 * [1 - .5] * [1 + .1] = .55, or 10% slow decreases attack speed by 10% only.


Ill need to read that thread later when i get a chance, but this makes no sense to me atm. According to the second method, if you have 50% haste from gear/Marches etc and then you get 50% slowed (reflected elegey/slow spell/heca etc) you would have

1 * [1 - .5] * [1 + .5] = .75

If i have 50% haste and then get 50% slow on me, why would i still attack as though i had 25% haste on? Its completely illogical. It would make infinitely more sense for slow to simply subtract from your haste. If you have 50% haste and 10% slow=40% haste. if you have 50% haste and 50% slow, should have equivalent of zero haste.

The second method is suggesting that it calculates your haste delay, then uses that new delay as the base for calculating slow. (100 delay at 50% haste=50 delay. Now adding 50% slow you use 50 delay base instead of 100. 50*1.5=75 delay).

Ill need to read those threads for any testing to prove this theory, but it is completely counter intuitive to have slow to functionally be weaker than haste by always using "post haste" delays when caclulating slow.
___________________________________-
Edit:
I checked and there is only a vague reference:
Quote:
Kirschy posted on BG that haste and slow are not the same term, but are calculated separately. What this means is that slow is not as bad as it "should be."


Id like to see this thread and how exactly Kirschy came to this conclusion.

Edited, Aug 9th 2009 11:52am by Banalaty
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#58 Aug 09 2009 at 7:57 AM Rating: Decent
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Noodles wrote:
Quote of importance:
Quote:
Kirschy posted on BG that haste and slow are not the same term, but are calculated separately. What this means is that slow is not as bad as it "should be."

Incorrect assumption: 1 * [1 - (.5 - .1)] = .6, or 10% slow was thought to decrease attack speed with 50% haste by 20%.
Actual: 1 * [1 - .5] * [1 + .1] = .55, or 10% slow decreases attack speed by 10% only.
I'd like to see the derivation of this result.

EDIT: heh, Banalaty and I are of one mind on this. I can come up with a few good ways to test it (Ceremonial Dagger + full Heca on Uragnites, anyone? :-D) but it still sounds like about as much BS as the current "this is what's being said about the 2h cRatio -> pDIF formulas on BG" is.

Edited, Aug 9th 2009 9:00am by MDenham
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#59 Aug 09 2009 at 8:33 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
If i have 50% haste and then get 50% slow on me, why would i still attack as though i had 25% haste on? Its completely illogical.


Most of ffxi is completely illogical. Smiley: tongue

Quote:
Well, id imagine if you stuck on that second march as Shamaya does in the OP it would tip towards non-heca set. Also, i didnt see you account for Triple/DA in your TP damage which would up that quite substantially making it weigh more heavily.(i think it comes out to some 24% avg increase to melee or something). Also, crits on melee etc. With these, it would be much closer if not completely reverse the result.


Triple and double attack proc just as much on solo SA rounds. I'm pretty sure it would actually favor the heca set since it doesn't change attack speed and it's 100% acc, worst case for me it'd be an proportional increase for both. Crits would probably favor the non heca set though.

Quote:
Would the second march make a differance against the hecatomb? See quoted section in last post.


It probably would make a difference. You can factor it in pretty easily though. I'll add another brd:

TP: cratio = 1.374
pDIF:[Min = 1.000][Max = 1.648][Average = 1.324]
Damage: 47.664 + 38.396 = 86.06; 86.06 * .885 = [76.1631]
Delay: (178+150) * .8 = 262.4; 262.4 * .50 = [131.2]

WS: cratio = 1.497
pDIF1:[Min = 2.000][Max = 2.796][Average = 2.398]
pDIF2:[Min = 1.000][Max = 1.796][Average = 1.398]

Damage1: (429.242 + 51.726) = [480.968]
Damage2: (412.456 + 43.338) = [455.794]
Difference = [25.174]

Delay1: 278.8 * .65 = 181.22 * 1.3 = 235.586
Delay2: 278.8 * .6 = 167.28 * 1.12 = 187.3536
Difference = (48.2324 / 131.2) = (0.367625 * 76.1631) = [27.9994596375]

So if you have dual march and haste on full time, the list works against colibri. Now we just need to try it against things like Kirin and Odin and etc. It's interesting to see just how overpowered haste really is, lol.

Edited, Aug 9th 2009 12:40pm by Deadgye
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#60 Aug 09 2009 at 10:13 AM Rating: Good
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Actually, im pretty sure DA/TA still put more weight on melee rounds. A single TA will double your melee round damage (4 hits instead of 2 with 50/50 split of it being your main or off hand so averages out over time past the different base damages). A TA will not double your SA damage, just add a static 50% of a melee round damage to your SA round.

10% TA and 5% brutal will give you a straight melee increase of (i think) 24% on top of everything. Even with the 100% acc on SA/TA, the increase in damage from multi hits is obviously going to be far less than 24% since it does nothing to the huge crit hit. Basically, multi hits add far less of a % increase to SA/TA than it does to a melee round. So adding multi hits will increase the damage of your melee rounds by 24% while only adding say 5%(made up number) to SA/TA power.

The thing is, no matter what gear you use on SA/TA you will still get your extra multi hits for SA/TA rounds regardless of your slow% or even if you didnt use SA/TA at all. It is basically a static bonus on every attack round. But by slowing down the following attack round, instead of slowing down 50 damage, your really slowing down about 62.5 damage. So if you have enough slow to cut your delay in half (using whatever slow calculation is right, still loosing half the delay), you would be cutting off 31.25 damage from slow, not 25. The fact that you still get the ~12.5 damage from multi hit added to a SA/TA round is irrelivant because you would get it even if you didnt use SA. Your gear choice wont change it (well slight bump to Fstr, but ultimately the damage change wont be significant).

Changing heca hands to enkidu hands will have almost no effect on the multi hit damage on the SA/TA round. You will still get your damage from multi hits no matter how much slow you have. But, it WILL have an effect on the following rounds total damage which DOES include multi hits. Upping the damage of your melee by 24% means the detrimental impact of slow is increased by 24%, while having virtually no impact on the SA/TA round because multi hits on SA/TA rounds are independant of using SA/TA.

Does that make any sense? Or am i completely off base?
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#61 Aug 10 2009 at 2:53 AM Rating: Decent
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I don't think we can use percent boosts with this comparison, since it's two different things entirely. But regardless I think you may be right. It's not because the percent increase for SA would be small while for the melee round it would be big, it's because we're comparing a difference in damage for two sa sets vs how much they effect the following melee round. The difference in damage gained via da/ta on sneak attack between the two sets should be pretty small, since the boost should be almost exactly the same. (Same attack after all.) But the boost on the melee attack round won't be negated in any way, so it will up the damage lost via slow by more.
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#62 Sep 23 2009 at 11:48 PM Rating: Decent
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Alright guys. So it's seriously my bad for posting this and never responding to it. Big apologies. And sorry for bumping this as well. I was on vacation with no computer for much of last month, and it kind of made me forget to come back to this.

I'm going to respond to a couple of concerns some of you had, though obviously many of you knew enough to figure some of these things out yourselves. However first, I would like to say that I've edited my LJ article on this (my main area for information-keeping) because of the critical miscalculation that some of you discovered. That is, the function of slow%. That is, I'd assumed based on outdated information that gear slow was a separate function, and not the -haste% that it actually is.

Edits
It's a tribute to how annoyingly complex the project became, that I spent many hours last night trying to amend this. And I had to re-learn how I put the formula/spreadsheets together. The most annoying part was that moving from office 2000 -> open office -> office 2007 caused some annoying corruptions.

But I fixed it,
*I changed the function for delay in the formula
*I recalculated ~1000 sets of equip, and found the new "best set"
*I used that for the new template for cross-comparing stats, and thus reworked the ratios

Notes:
*I only had time to do SA last night, not TA
*The gear rankings are now slightly out of order and need updating
*New spreadsheets have yet to be uploaded (the old ones were probably partially corrupted anyway)
*More editing yet to be done

I've already updated the OP. Mainly all that changed was that slow hurts more (obviously). Will update again when the rest is finished.

Misc Concerns
Now to concerns,
Quote:
Not to nitpick but it looks like you left out Cuchulain's Mantle
Sorry about that, and thank you for the suggestion. Out of pure forgetfulness, I neglected several pieces of gear, and they've now been edited in (on LJ).
Quote:
did you figure in a food with your numbers?
No. More on this shortly.
Quote:
Just to clarify, these ratios do not take into account places where you're getting attack boosts like x2 minuet or chaos roll and etc, right? (Or is there an option for me in the excel sheets to change the attack and get new ratios?)
Same, more on this. And yes, you can edit the spreadsheet. However, it would be very complicated. It sucks for me to make edits like that, and I designed it -.-. I'd recommend taking a look at least to see if you can figure it out. What you'll want to do is look at the area where it says "formulae composites." There isn't a single cell with the formula. Try and look at how these cells are working. As a note, I use pDif avg, (Min+Max)/2. After editing the formulae composites in a single row, you'll have to copypaste for all rows in the data table.
Quote:
base damage gets bumped the @#%^ up by all the DEX (or AGI). this lowers the value of STR. ("but what about the ATT that STR adds?" not sure if OP factored that in;
Almost everything has been taken into account. Including fStr and atk from str. I made the formula to be very accurate, and I would trust it above any alternative less complex. The largest factor unaccounted for is the TP-gain differences, and their relative associated WS dmg contribution. Thus, the importance of d.a./t.a./haste are slightly higher than shown, and slow lower.

Using this as a Guide
Quote:
Great for maximizing SA/TA based on your gear/buffs on level 82 greater colibri... but doesn't hold much water beyond that.

I understand what you mean, but it actually it does hold water so to speak. I started this project, like many others, to maximize my own utility as opposed to anyone elses. Then I wanted to pass on what I'd found. But I realized that without creating stat ratios, I wouldn't be offering anything too tangible. So I developed those as a guide. And that's precisely why they are very effective to have. Because now we have a base to refer to, whereas before, we didn't. In my example, ~2.2atk = 1dex for sa. Use this as reference. You know the value of dex will be lower if you have more dex, for example. It's impossible to make a "perfect" guide for rationalizing stats, but it's better to have one than not. I/we could make a much better spreadsheet or calculating program for plugging in your own stats, which would be best, but it is too complicated and time-consuming for me to do.

To reemphasize, please use this as a convenient guide. As the math veterans know, it is not be-all/end-all.

1. On Differences in haste
I probably shouldn't have done this in double march from the beginning, but I wanted to make a good case for haste pieces, since to many they were still the underdog. Fortunately it wasn't too difficult to add numbers for single march+haste and solo haste spell either. Keep this all in mind when looking at gear comparisons; think relatively, or calculate using the other available haste ratio values.
2. On Differences in attack/pDif
This is obviously a problem. However it's not terribly bad. On HNM's we tend to sub war and use pizza. On colibris, /nin and crab sushi (at least I do, but I know everyone's different). We also might get buffed. Dia will be more consistent. This will compensate a little. I usually do chaos roll in exp pt's, and I don't mind that my #'s don't account for it. As mentioned above, stray from the guide and use it as a starting point. One more thing,

The only times that the settings herein (being specific as they are) will lead to inaccuracy is when the comparison between two (sets of) gear pieces come out to be extremely close. Here's what I mean,

Not Close
Single March, Haste
Skadi's Visor, 24.12
Hecatomb +1, 3.48
(when the numbers come out like this, who cares about being 100% accurate for every situation?)

Close
Single March, Haste
Skadi's Visor, 24.12
Maat's Cap, 26.46
(depending on the situation, this could go either way)

What I'm trying to show with these two examples is that the rankings and stat ratios can be very convenient and even quite accurate, even as rough guides. This may not be so helpful to the forum vets with veins of which internet arithmetic doth flow through, but for others it might be more helpful.

It's akin to parsing, which shouldn't be taken to give you irrefutable conclusive answers, but yet can be very helpful for zeroing in on desired data, and still be quite accurate in deciphering solid from utterly bogus.

Quote:
by the way, i find relativizing everything to DA to be pretty bizarre. and by bizarre i mean... a bad enough idea to justify redoing the whole thing. the value of DA on SA/TA is based on
Don't worry about that. I calculated everything, then found how much a single point more of each stat would produce. The stat to pick to compare the other stats to is arbitrary, and you'll get the same relative ratios regardless. I picked d.a. because it was the lowest number.

Edited, Sep 24th 2009 11:56am by Shamaya
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#63 Sep 23 2009 at 11:49 PM Rating: Decent
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Movement Speed
Quote:
Same question here as I asked over at KI, why the skadi / trotters.
Quote:
I cant fathom know how you guys play that somehow makes speed boots better for SATA, but speed boots (or dusk) should have ZERO effect on your SA. You guys do know that when slowed (movement speed like gravity slowed :P) that it only affects normal walking, and when engaged forward and back right? If you are "locked" on the target,

I got the same blank stares here as from elsewhere. It used to be that people were stumped on using free sa/ta vs going stacked. Then people were confused over using haste and suppa over spike stats. Likewise movement speed is another barrel of fish. Only this time it's not quantifiable. It's good though, because if everything was a number game it'd suck.

I edited this out of the article because it was unrelated, and I don't want it to get in the way of what this is actually all about. So this is a different subject entirely.

The use of movement speed for sa/ta will depend on your playstyle. But I'm wholly confident that for a pro thf, it matters. I can tell you when movement speed isn't an issue for me for dps'ing. When I'm playing like trash. When I'm just too sleepy or lazy. Hey guys, I'm not saying that we can't sit on the computer with one hand in our pants and the other on the keyboard, a cig in your mouth, w/e, just kickin back. But there's a difference between that and playing top-game. I actually find it shocking that some people I know well in game tell me "thief isn't a hard job" or "it's as easy as any other melee" when it's so obviously the opposite. I leveled warrior recently and put it up there with the best of them. Pre-voking, hermes' for in-between mobs, switching to a new mob at low hp% to ws a fresh mob, autotarget, mob-dependent TP sets. But compared to a thief it's a walk in the park. I'll dps much lower on thf if I'm knackered. War, not so much.

The central thing for thf that makes it more attention-dependent to play well is the use of sa/ta. Not only how frequently you use it, but how you use it. Sa/Ta+WS is one thing, but unstacking is another.

I got a similar questioning on BG, that when you're locked on the target--if the mob moves, there's nothing you can do. You guys (that are confused) are aware that you can unlock from your target, right? I've been doing this for so many years. When you sa or ta and either the player moves or the mob turns, you simply unlock, and turn around. Then you readjust your positioning, and dive in. It can be done very quickly, and in situations where it only takes 2 seconds, you've saved 300-500+ dmg, and only lost maybe a round of TP. That's worth the tradeoff. The drive behind movement speed is the difference in time that it takes to realign yourself. If you save yourself a full second or two (very realistic; I know this because I used to use dusk and no striders), you've saved yourself far more dmg than a puny amount of extra dmg from stats. The big tradeoff is that the mob/player doesn't move every time. So, quantifiably, it comes out to %probability*dmgSaved vs 100%*dmgDealt. After much experience using pro playstyle, I far favor movement speed. Not only of this, but also because,

*Dmg Saved (the paragraph above)
*Reduces misses
*Increases "worth it"
*Pre Sa/Ta

Reduces misses. By this, I mean that you just couldn't react fast enough, and the mob or player moved again, so your attempt to realign failed. Increases "worth it." By this, I mean that adjusting for movement speed makes it more often worth it for you to go out of your way to realign an sa/ta that's about to miss. There are obviously times where it's not worth it. I'm sure I'm not the only one who says **** it" if it looks like any attempt to save the sa/ta is in vain. This reduces those **** it" moments. Pre Sa/Ta. This one is obvious to all of us. I was surprised on BG that some said "preppin sa/ta before a fight is a bad idea." Obviously we know that if we pre an sa 10 to 20 seconds before a fight, we're going to see another sa/ta sooner, producing quicker damage over time. Movement speed helps you get into position faster, allowing you to start doing rounds of TP (for TP and dmg) sooner. You could always use your mobility set and then switch into a spike sa/ta set at the last instant, but this is oftentimes cumbersome and counterproductive.

HNM's (Ixion, Khimaira, Cerb, etc). Gears. Chariots. MANY fights. There are simply many fights where our role is not to melee, but to th, feint, sa/ta for dmg, pop acid, and collab. Movement speed is ideal for these situations, and it can also mean the difference (standing at 10-15+' away from TP moves) between being able to do a second round of melee swings (subtle blow set or not) after darting in for sa/ta, and not.

So movement speed is so consistently helpful that I find it too much of a bother to make different macro sets just for rare situations in which it is not, much less to bring along another inventory -1 for my feet, when our inventories are already pushing 80/80, with much of our satchel also full with thief gear. Usually I don't put wivre ring +1 in inv, nor dragon cap +1, nor gorget for SB. Similarly it helps to not bring dragon/+1/enkidu's.
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#64 Sep 25 2009 at 4:21 AM Rating: Decent
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Wall of texts aside,
Trick Attack Data
I've now edited this on top of the previous SA edits. So now everything should be up to date. What I changed:

*changed slow% to be -haste%
*added 1minuet's worth of attack to make up w/ the inconsistency since the attack values in the spreadsheet were all riding the area between two tiers, skewing the comparisons. attack now has a higher value, and is now in the same tier of attack that the SA set is in. keep this in mind if possible
*edited dex to be quantifiable for TA

This project is definitely not perfect. While the formula used is almost perfect, the application of it to come up with these stat/gear ratios/listings is certainly relative. I caution again to use this as a guide; while it is a decent one it is a guide nonetheless.
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#65 Sep 25 2009 at 6:36 AM Rating: Decent
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Taken from Shamaya LJ:

solo SA
(hand) ANNM Dragon Mitts ~ Skadi Bazubands > Dusk+1(2xMarch)* > Enkidu's > Dusk(2xMarch)* > Heca +1 > Heca > Merman's > AF

Shocked to see Skadi Bazubands (with zero DEX) so high in the list. I assume the math is correct.
And also funny to see that Skadi Bazubands is not in the list for solo TA.

I just like to point out that Tarasque Mitts +1 (attack +12) should also be in the list imo. According to my math they rank just below Skadi Bazubands for solo SA. And are obviously more easy to get.
#66 Sep 25 2009 at 7:18 AM Rating: Decent
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I was actually just editing that that as you posted. That list had not been updated to the new ratios. It is now updated though, and also edited into this OP. Your suggestion has also been added, thx. Really sleepy now
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#67 Sep 25 2009 at 3:29 PM Rating: Good
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Nice, I like how in the revised edition of your LJ you gave an approximated point score of each piece. I'm curious to know how my current sneak attack head wear fares in it. I'm using a solo sneak attack item you omitted

Voyager Sallet

It gives almost the same dex as relic, while adding 3 str which if str isn't capped will raise fSTR by 1 at a 75% chance, and raise attack by 1.5 as well. Other than that, it looks really solid.

Edited, Sep 25th 2009 7:35pm by Melphina
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#68 Sep 25 2009 at 5:17 PM Rating: Decent
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I like you removed "movement speed" as a variable in your results, although I disagree with "Strider Boots / Skadi's Jambeaux are, essentially, the best Sa/Ta feet you can wear at almost all times."

Even after your post of clarification, I guess we'll just have to disagree and go about our buisness.

But considering the Delay from popping the ability, and the fact that you can lock on to get behind the mob/player, I don't see it as a valid point at all.


Even if you dont fight locked on, you can still lock on to circle, then unlock. The only time you may not want to circle around a mob like that is very large mob (like a HNM) or something with an AoE you want to stay clear of (Such as a Chariot boss). In cases like this all this about maximising sa/ta through haste/slow is worthless anyway.

In fact I'd like to add a point to make sure that all of you Thfs who are blindly changing your SA/TA sets because of all these considerations, are still keeping a 2nd SA/TA set, using full power and ignoring haste/slow, to use with harder mobs that you don't TP burn like a merit mob. Things that you maye run in to SA/TA/WS and gtfo again, or harder mobs without a cor or brd. Like a sky god without melee buffs where your melee damage will be so poor anyway that the majority of your damage comes from sa/ta.

Edit: Also, you missed Oily Trousers in all cases, which would beat the dex/agi+4 onry options, as they have dex/agi+5.

Edited, Sep 26th 2009 1:30am by Noodles
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#69 Sep 26 2009 at 6:30 AM Rating: Decent
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Ehh true but I did list War Brais+1 and Dragon Subligar+1 which will be identical (almost).

The ja pop delay for sa/ta is irrelevant since when you change equip while using a ja, you don't get the momentary freeze. For the record I usually fight mobs with lock on. I just hit unlock and turn around on the fly. And you know I wonder if the reason why this is easier for me is because I've always used WASD laptop-style movement and not the numpad; dk about anyone else. I'm not sure if you understand my point, since you say you should strafe via lock-on and then unlock. Which is the opposite of what you should do since if you attack again while locked you lose your SA/TA. I would though be interested if anyone agrees with me, though I'm usually stubborn in that I don't usually change my opinion without clear evidence to the contrary. For the record I'm also the one who's used suppa for sa for like 4+ years (go go credibilityy). But if nobody agrees with me I don't blame anyone ; ;

I wouldn't call myself cookie cutter; I have more flexible and numerous builds than 95%+ thieves prolly. But I do agree with the different sa/ta sets for HNM vs EXP. I currently only have one SA/TA set (modified only by full-time th4 set, non-/nin, or subtle blow), so I'm yet to do this. This is usually the kind of thing I mean to do but takes forever to find the time to -.-

If anyone would like to take the time to create gear lists like the ones I've made for double march, showing all of the (#'s) next to each piece of equip, for single-march/haste and solo haste, that would be so so helpful. I can't see myself getting around to do it -.-
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#70 Sep 26 2009 at 10:18 AM Rating: Decent
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Shamaya wrote:
The ja pop delay for sa/ta is irrelevant since when you change equip while using a ja, you don't get the momentary freeze.
Yes you do. It's not the animation that causes the pause, it's the JA it's self. It doesn't matter whether you blink or not.

Edited, Sep 26th 2009 6:18pm by Noodles
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#71 Sep 26 2009 at 1:14 PM Rating: Decent
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Ah, true. But we're not on the mental page. What was important to me about what you said (or what I thought you meant) was that you can't move when you use the ja (which is true without the equip swap / blinking), and this was your point as to why it was a futile effort to try to respond to a moving target. You would have been right in saying that it would have been more difficult, if this is what you meant (assuming no blinking). Other than that the delay of the ja use itself is arbitrary given what I mean.

(edit)Just to clarify I understand what you mean, you are saying that there is a certain time where you will not be able to attack the mob while the ja is being used, since the ja takes a moment to use, correct? If you were to say that you cannot move at all when using the ja (and equip blinking), then you would be incorrect.

Edited, Sep 26th 2009 9:18pm by Shamaya
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#72 Sep 26 2009 at 4:24 PM Rating: Decent
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Nah, my post was that you shouldn't ever have trouble running to position yourself that dusk/striders will make any difference, on smallish mobs (like merit mobs), considering it's quicker to strafe behind them whilst locked on, and you will still get some JA-delay to give you an extra 0.5 second or such to get inline. It shouldn't be a problem.

Alternatively you could, you know, move into position when your timer is at 1sec, making all movement and positioning related points irrelevant.

And don't try and argue that "the mob might move in that split-second between moving and using the JA!". Because sure, it's true. But the mob could also not move at all untill you've used the JA then moved into position, but still move just befor you hit, caussing you to miss anyway. It can theoretically move anytime, it's just bad luck, but it's a constant that can be applied to every situation, and not worth using as an argument for or against XYZ.

Edit: And as another post, if your countdown is approaching 0, is it really too hard to wait untill your next attack round befor popping the JA? so you've saved 0.5secs on that JA, great. Chances are it wont matter because of time wasted running to/engaging/whatever the next mob. But with that half a second you've "wasted", waiting for your next attack round, you now have ample time to position yourself befor the next attack round.

I'm banging on, but I really see no argument whatsoever for/against movement speed +/-.

Edited, Sep 27th 2009 12:33am by Noodles
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#73 Sep 26 2009 at 8:01 PM Rating: Decent
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Set character speed to 1024 or 2048, freeze, continue partying. Problem solved!
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#74 Sep 26 2009 at 10:14 PM Rating: Decent
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Bagh, no use in going into this further really >,<. If we can't see eye to eye by now then it's not worth trying. Because no, strafing is irrelevant to me since it's ineffective given how fast we (can) attack, and depending on the degrees turned. It really isn't difficult to unlock and is more reliable, I'm not sure why anyone would strafe unless it didn't turn that many degrees (also, I'm talking about TA here, not just SA, players also move). As for moving into position when the ja comes up..who wouldn't do that? You also said 'don't try to argue they could move at the last second'--that's precisely what I'm arguing, otherwise this would be about irrelevant. No, it's no gaurantee you can save a lost sa/ta every time. No, the mob/player won't move every time. Hence why I said it turnes out to be %probability*hit(movement) vs 100%probability*(hit(+dmg feet) - hit). And yes, timing every sa/ta is not worth it, being tedious. And actually it wouldn't make a difference, as if you hit the ja when you have full delay, you have a longer window for something to happen, and if you hit it right before you are about to attack, you won't have enough time to respond. Changing the feet isn't about avoiding missed sa/ta's (before you unlock), it's about speeding things up for when you do try to avoid missed sa/ta's. Oftentimes, unlocking will be more effective--period. Please don't forget that this is also only one of the points I mentioned. If you want though, you could also try to only use movement feet for sa/ta during certain fights; it is cumbersome, but certainly doable. I'm not sure that someone who wouldn't bother to change the feet normally would bother changing them for special fights (like chariots) tho. Forgive this WoT:(
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