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Maximizing SA/TA Damage (mathy mathy)Follow

#1 Jul 30 2009 at 4:30 AM Rating: Excellent
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This topic has come up on the boards in the past, about which stats to use for sa/ta. Obviously we've known the wiki basics for awhile: ie, "a single point of dex/agi increases base damage by one. the strike will be a critical which will not miss if landed correctly." Etc, etc. But being the fiends we are, many of us here would like to know "just how much better is a point of dex/agi for SA/TA than a point of attack?" or "is a point of haste ever better for SA/TA than a point of dex/agi?" and "if so, how much better is a point of haste; if not, how much worse is it?"

The veterans here, I'm sure, can easily understand that any answer to this question will not hold for all situations. The game is far too situational. Various factors such as player stats and equip, buffs, debuffs, and mob fought are all interdependent. However, it is still possible and beneficial to speak generally so long as we understand that general =/= always.

I'll post here a very abridged summary version, but for those that would like to know a lot more, the article in my blog can be found here: How to Maximize Sa/Ta Damage. So for detailed reading, I'd go there instead. Posting it all here would be 'tldr'.

I've come up with the following ratios for the relative values of various stats that can affect Sa/Ta damage (/nin).

Sneak Attack
1Dbl.Atk = 1
1TripleAtk = 2.38 (d.a.)
1Dex = 2.58 (d.a.)
1Str = 1.20 (d.a.)
1Attack = 1.19 (d.a.)
1Slow(2xMarch,Haste) = -2.64 (d.a.)
1D.Wield(2xMarch,Haste) = 2.16 (d.a.)
1Haste(2xMarch,Haste) = 2.65 (d.a.)
1Haste(1xMarch,Haste) = 2.22 (d.a.)
1Haste(NoMarch,Haste) = 1.84 (d.a.)

Trick Attack
1Dbl.Atk = 1
1TripleAtk = 2.51
1Agi = 3.35
1Dex = 0.39
1Str = 1.29
1Attack = 1.26
1Slow(2xMarch,Haste) = -3.50
1D.Wield(2xMarch,Haste) = 2.59
1Haste(2xMarch,Haste) = 3.50
1Haste(1xMarch,Haste) = 2.89
1Haste(NoMarch,Haste) = 2.43

These values are all relative to how much a single point of double attack increases damage.

I've also used this to rank SA/TA gear accordingly,

Sneak Attack
(head) Maat's Cap (26.46) > Skadi's Visor (25.41) > Gnadbhod's Helm (13.84) > AF2 (12.9) = Turban (13.25) > Emp.Pin (7.74) > Heca+1 (0.84)
(neck) Love Torque (20.04) > Kubira Bead Necklace (15.08) > Spike Necklace (11.34)
(ears) Suppanomimi (10.8) > Pixie (7.74) => Merman's (7.14) > Hollow/Adroit (5.16) = Coral (5.95) = Brutal (5.0)
(body) Dragon Harness+1 (32.34) > Skadi (26.59) = DH nq (27.38) > Anatares Harness (20.64) > BlueCote+1 (16.32) > WarAketon +1 (12.9) > Rapp (10.6)
(hand) ANNM Dragon Mitts (20.44) > Skadi Bazubands (17.9) > Dusk+1(2xMarch) (17.74)* > Enkidu's (15.12) => Tarasque Mitts +1 (14.28) => Dusk(2xMarch) (13.9)* > Merman's (8.94) > AF (7.74) > Heca +1 (4.02)
(rings) Rajas Ring (18.9) > 5Dex Ring (12.9)
(back) Charger's (23.8) => Cerberus Mantle +1 (22.65) > Forager's (21.45) > Amemet +1 (20.25) > Cuchulain's (15.12) > Commander's (11.34) > AF2 (10.32)
(waist) Cuchulain's Belt (27.38) > Ninurta's (23.04) > Warwolf (18.9) > Speed Belt (15.9) > Swordbelt +1 (14.28)
(leg)Enkidu's (18.9) > Dusk (16.66)* > Hecatomb Subligar +1 (12.44) = Heca nq (12.76) > Dragon+1 (12.9) = Barbarossa's (12.75) > Dragon nq (10.32)
(feet) Enkidu's (17.8) > Dragon +1(13.89) > Dragon (10.12) => Dusk (10.06)* > Leapers (7.74)

Trick Attack
(head) Maat's Cap (35.21) > Skadi's Visor (33.02) > Denali Bonnet (31.18) > Dragon+1 (16.75) > Turban (17.5) > Dragon (13.4) > Emp.Pin (11.22)
(neck) Hope Torque (16.75) > Crocodile Collar (13.4) > Love Torque (9.51) > Agile Gorget (6.7) => Justice Torque (6.45) => Tiger Stole (6.3) > Spike Necklace (5.04)
(ears) Suppanomimi (19.65) > Genin (13.4) > Drone (10.05) > Merman's (7.56) > Coral (6.3) => Brutal (5.0)
(body) Denali Jacket (44.84) > Dragon Harness +1 (41.3) > Skadi (36.22) > DH nq (35.04) > Antares Harness (26.8) > BlueCote+1(24.76) > Rapp (14.0)
(hand) AF+1 (?, ~54.77) > Skadi (35.8) > Dusk+1(2xMarch) (21.56)* = Dragon+1 (20.53) > Dusk(2xMarch) (16.8)* = Dragon (15.92) => Tarasque Mitts +1 (15.12)
(rings) 5Agi Ring (16.75) > Rajas (8.4)
(back) Charger's (25.2) => Cerberus Mantle +1 (24.06) > Forager's (22.77) > Amemet +1 (21.48) > Commander's (15.09) = AF2 (14.96)
(waist) Ninurta Sash (28.56) > Speed Belt (21.0) > Grenadier Belt (18.87) > Swordbelt +1 (15.12) => Scouter's (13.4) > Ryl. Knight's Belt (10.06) > Vanguard Belt (10.17) > Warwolf Belt (8.4) => Swift Belt (7.7)
(leg) Dusk+1 (18.9)* > Dusk (17.64)* > War Brais +1 (16.75) > Barbarossa's (15.66) > WarBrais/AF (13.4) > Heca nq (-13.68) > Hecatomb Subligar +1 (-17.77)
(feet) Enkidu's (23.26) > Dragon +1 (18.74) > Dragon (13.74) > Dusk (13.3)* > Leapers (11.22)

For the mathematically inclined, I used the following formula to measure the marginal increase of damage from an SA/TA "act":

(SA/TA round Dmg) - (TP round opportunity cost) 
= 
(Initial Critical Hit)+(Extra Swings) - (dDelay Function)*(TP round Dmg) 
 
= 
{(Main. +fStr'a +Dex/Agi)*(pDif'a+1) + [(Main. +fStr'a)*Dbl./Trip.Atks + (Off. + fStr'a)*(1 + Dbl./Trip.Atks)]*(CritRate'a*(pDif'a+1) + NonCritRate'a*pDif'a)} 
- ((delayTP - delaySA)/delayTP)*[(Main. + Off. +2fStr'b)*(CritRate'b*(pDif'b+1) + NonCritRate'b*pDif'b)*(1 + Dbl./Trip.Atks)*Accuracy


There's more detail on understanding the formula in the LJ. Also included is the method that I used to come up with the stat ratios and corresponding gear rankings, excel spreadsheets included. Short story, I used my base sa/ta gear (that I knew for sure were the best options), my tp gear, the standard lvl82 greater colibri, double-march/haste and an accuracy buff, and variable gear options to create a spreadsheet of over 950 gear combinations for SA and over 100 for TA. From there, I found the best sets for each and simply worked out how much a single point of an attribute increased total damage, and then rationalized them.

As I said earlier, these ratios/rankings won't always hold. It's more of a general guide, though I think the gear rankings should generally hold pretty well for most situations though, even if the stat ratios change.

I really hope this can be of decently useful reference to some of the devoted thieves we have on the forums here. This project took far longer to finish than originally anticipated, and I was really glad when it was over. Also, double-checking of the math here is welcome and definitely encouraged, though I feel pretty comfortable with it. The biggest errors would probably be some truncation shortcomings, but I'm pretty confident this hasn't affected the end results in any major ways.

Edited, Jul 30th 2009 12:33pm by Shamaya
Edited, Sep 24th 2009 5:12am by Shamaya
Edited, Sep 25th 2009 12:51pm by Shamaya

Edited, Sep 25th 2009 3:16pm by Shamaya
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#2 Jul 30 2009 at 6:00 AM Rating: Decent
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I've always had a suspicion that attack did more for SA/TA than people gave credit for.
Glad to see I wasn't doing it wrong when I used my Coral earring over my Minuet.

Also using your 'point system'

Mirke (10attack/3dw lol i know) = 37.19
DH+1 = 31.53
Mirke (10atk/10acc) = 30.2
DH = 27.1
Mirke (10acc/3dw) = 25.79
Antares = 20.4

Haha Mirke 10atk 3dw wins by a significant margin, although I doubt its worth specing that way over the 10acc 3dw, or haub style.

Quick question, are Skadi and Striders ranked high because of the increase in movement speed? If so shouldn't that lower the Dusk rankings?

Great post, will help tremendously with the advent of FOV augments.

Edit - NVM the last the strider/dusk question, saw answer on your LJ.

Edited, Jul 30th 2009 10:02am by Zelphan
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#3 Jul 30 2009 at 7:25 AM Rating: Decent
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Interesting stuff Shamaya.

Especially the TA list:
(leg) Dusk+1 > Dusk > War Brais +1 > Barbarossa's = WarBrais/AF > Heca nq > Hecatomb Subligar +1 >

I thought I was doing okay with macroing NQ heca for TA. It has 20 attack and all. But it is nearly at the bottom of the list because of the 12% slow.

I am going to make a few changes to my TA setup now.

#4 Jul 30 2009 at 8:34 AM Rating: Good
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Not to nitpick but it looks like you left out Cuchulain's Mantle from your Sneak Attack options, and provided I'm not a complete idiot it looks like your rankings would have it in between the Amemet Mantle +1 and the Commander's Cape.

Out of curiousity, did you figure in a food with your numbers? I saw the songs mentioned but no other buffs and I'm just wondering, really.
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#5 Jul 30 2009 at 8:43 AM Rating: Decent
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I think im reading it wrong, but how does haste affect damage? SA and TA are a one-off attack and while Haste will let you land it quicker, I don't see how it will actually make it land harder. Don't misunderstand, I realise that Haste is great for the DoT and raising TP and everything, but for the actual SA/TA, I fail to see where it's benefitting you.
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#6 Jul 30 2009 at 9:07 AM Rating: Good
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The haste benefits you by letting your next TP swing land faster.
With 4/5 heca it isn't any stretch to state that you will be missing out on 1 TP round, So depending on how good your TP set is and especially how potent haste buffs you're receiving, you may actually have less damage over time. The extra damage from the slow may not outweigh the damage of an extra TP round, not to mention extra TP gain.
I would wager in zerg capped haste situations it would be best not to swap out of TP gear for SA/TA

same goes for dual wield.


Edited, Jul 30th 2009 1:13pm by Zelphan
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#7 Jul 30 2009 at 9:15 AM Rating: Good
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Here I was thinking that my lack of a decent SA/TA macro set was ruining my THF, but according to this I've been doinitrite :D
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#8 Jul 30 2009 at 9:26 AM Rating: Decent
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Please lets make one thing clear for new thf's. You _must_ make proper gear swaps in order to gain maximum dmg output over time. Please do not be lazy i.e. don't swap for SA/TA.

The post Shamaya made is not an excuse to be lazy and don't swap for SA/TA. He even says so in closing statement (see blog):
*Likewise, laziness and not swapping for sa/ta does decrease your damage output.
*Mid-range equips, with a combination of good stats, seem to be the best.
#9 Jul 30 2009 at 9:44 AM Rating: Good
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its not for the actual SA/TA round, its for the melee round after it.
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#10 Jul 30 2009 at 10:16 AM Rating: Good
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Same question here as I asked over at KI, why the skadi / trotters.
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#11 Jul 30 2009 at 10:26 AM Rating: Good
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All the movement + / - options are italicized, which I'm guessing means it's hard to quantify them. If you don't have to run anywhere for your SA/TA, you can effectively take trotters/striders off the list. If you do, though, they could be better then anything else (and by default, dusk would then be worse then everything else)

Thanks for the list Shamaya. For now I'll just edit my suppa in place of the brutal and call it a day. Also might have to work on a chargers.
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#12 Jul 30 2009 at 12:40 PM Rating: Decent
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Just to clarify, these ratios do not take into account places where you're getting attack boosts like x2 minuet or chaos roll and etc, right? (Or is there an option for me in the excel sheets to change the attack and get new ratios?)

Edited, Jul 30th 2009 4:42pm by Deadgye
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#13 Jul 30 2009 at 2:20 PM Rating: Decent
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I think attack is a bit over rated in this system. 2.2 attack is not 1 dex in SA.
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#14 Jul 30 2009 at 3:42 PM Rating: Good
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These ratio probably works only work merit mobs etc etc.. I would still gear towards "Biggest-bang-of-the-slot" if you are fighting things with higher defense.
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#15 Jul 30 2009 at 4:36 PM Rating: Decent
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These are all for SA/TA with out weapon skill. How would they compare with weapon skills?
#16 Jul 30 2009 at 4:58 PM Rating: Good
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WS is all out. WS is a damage ability, not a melee hit. Like Jumps on Drg. They have ZERO effect on the melee rounds, so the whole idea of slow/haste on WS is irrelivant. I WS in 4 pieces of Heca (3+1s) and the slow doesnt mean anything. The slow/haste only applies for SA/TA because it is a melee hit so the following hit will be significantly slowed down. It doesnt happen with "instant" JAs like Jumps/WS etc.

Also, <3 Shamaya. Is there anyway you could upload the spreadsheet? I would LOVE to test these a little bit on non-mandau setups. A little bug is bothering me saying that the ratios might change for others because Mandau/Blau attack rounds are significantly stronger than Blau/sirocco while SA/TA strength is almost unchanged. Putting on slow gear or removing haste on SA probably hurts mandau more as your melee is much stronger. The relative strengths of SATA and melee are probably skewed by mandau into melee's favor. REALLY want to check it on my own gear if you could upload.
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#17 Jul 30 2009 at 5:02 PM Rating: Good
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He has the spreadsheets up for download on his LJ, the link is in the OP.
I was gonna tweak them with Dolch/Siro myself, but I'll jus let ya do it. ;p
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#18 Jul 30 2009 at 5:29 PM Rating: Decent
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LordTrey wrote:
I think attack is a bit over rated in this system. 2.2 attack is not 1 dex in SA.
It might be... if anything in here accounted for the defense of your target.

Great for maximizing SA/TA based on your gear/buffs on level 82 greater colibri... but doesn't hold much water beyond that.
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#19 Jul 31 2009 at 12:04 AM Rating: Good
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well, first of all, the equivalencies plainly don't generalize. compare X ATT vs gcolibri against X ATT vs debuffed kirin against X ATT vs non-debuffed kirin. also compare the value of 1 DEX in a heavy DEX setup vs in a not very heavy DEX setup. also note that 1% DA on top of 0% is a different DoT increase than on top of 5%.

however, to the people saying that ATT is being overvalued here, don't be so sure. notice:

a) DEX is 1 base damage. "hoho, must be a big increase!" well, if you have a lot of DEX, 1 DEX will be well below 1% damage increase.

b) "hey, i've been at this for a long time. 1STR generally = 2ATT for 1handers with a decent amount of ATT." this is true, but see (a). base damage gets bumped the fuck up by all the DEX (or AGI). this lowers the value of STR. ("but what about the ATT that STR adds?" not sure if OP factored that in; no offense, i can't really be bothered to read the whole thing;;;).

c) "yeah but surely DA doesn't care about all the DEX..." but yes it does. your first hit is gonna crit and have a high base damage (the DA isn't a guaranteed crit nor does it have the DEX enhanced BD does it?). therefore, as on hagun WSs (for example), the DA's value takes a big hit.

(a)-(c) is what's inflating the goodness of ATT. it's hard to swallow still; we're talking about a guaranteed crit, so you wouldn't expect ATT to do much (as crits simply add 1 to pDIF). nonetheless, the biggest source of damage in a THF's SA/TA is the base damage increase. therefore, once your base damage reaches a certain level (relatively ill defined and situational what that level will be), it makes sense that you'd want to raise the pDIF side of the equation.

edit: note,
Greater Colibri  Level:81-82 Def:322-327 VIT:67     
Kirin            Level:92    Def:413     VIT:120


Edited, Jul 31st 2009 4:07am by milich
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#20 Jul 31 2009 at 1:04 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
(a)-(c) is what's inflating the goodness of ATT.


I think it was more the not including any forms of attack boost, even food, that inflated the goodness of attack.
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#21 Jul 31 2009 at 1:11 AM Rating: Good
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The One and Only Deadgye wrote:
Quote:
(a)-(c) is what's inflating the goodness of ATT.


I think it was more the not including any forms of attack boost, even food, that inflated the goodness of attack.


no, run the numbers. i thought the value of ATT was high, but when i thought about it and postulated some base damages, i saw that 1 DEX was only giving like .6% DoT.

500/322-.3 = 1.252
502/322-.3 = 1.259
-> 5%~ increase.

it was definitely more (a)-(c) than any underestimation of how much ATT you have.

edit: p.s. by the way, i find relativizing everything to DA to be pretty bizarre. and by bizarre i mean... a bad enough idea to justify redoing the whole thing. the value of DA on SA/TA is based on

a) how much DA you start with,
b) how much DEX/AGI you stack,
c) how much ACC you have,
d) how much ATT you have,
e) your crit rate on the additional hit

shamaya, if you read this, i urge you to redo the whole thing, b/c making it all relative to DA is a bad choice. pick some amount of ATT and a target mob and relativize to that, or something else more stable than DA or base damage.

Edited, Jul 31st 2009 5:15am by milich
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#22 Jul 31 2009 at 1:47 AM Rating: Decent
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500/327 - .05*7 + 1 = 2.179
502/327 - .05*7 + 1 = 2.185

That's only a.. .28% increase isn't it?

Let's assume I have one brd for minuet+march; and I'm using kabobs against 82 colibri.

33 + 8 + 133 = 174, increasing dex by one would be 1/174 = ~.57%
401 + 66 + 60 = 527, 527/327 - .35 + 1 = 2.261;
531/327 - .35 + 1 = 2.273; ~.53% increase.

1 dex still increases my damage more than 4 attack. This does however ignore my offhand weapon.. which attack would have a bigger effect on than my main hand. I don't really want to factor than in though. Smiley: lol

Edited, Jul 31st 2009 6:03am by Deadgye
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#23 Jul 31 2009 at 1:50 AM Rating: Decent
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milich wrote:
500/322-.3 = 1.252
502/322-.3 = 1.259
-> 5%~ increase.
0.55% actually.
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#24 Jul 31 2009 at 1:58 AM Rating: Good
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The One and Only Deadgye wrote:
500/327 - .05*7 + 1 = 2.179
502/327 - .05*7 + 1 = 2.185

That's only a.. .28% increase isn't it?


yeah. it's only a .32%~ increase if you start at 400ATT too. i wonder if s/he even considered the crit when valuing ATT.

how much DEX do you SA in anyway? like i said in my edit, this makes a big difference to everything. if BD is 200~, 1 DEX is .5% DoT. if BD is 100~ it's 1% DoT.

also, s/he seems to have 2.2 ATT = 1 DEX. note that this makes no difference at all to the cRatio you'd end up with in your example, which sort of touches on how trifling some of these differences/comparisons are. still, BD is going to be the difference maker, even if ATT was just mistakenly overvalued.

edit: in case anyone's confused, by 'BD' i mean "base damage" not "blau".

further edit: fixed decimal point typo;;;.

Edited, Jul 31st 2009 6:18am by milich
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#25 Jul 31 2009 at 2:10 AM Rating: Decent
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Decimal points are going in the wrong places in milich's posts due to beer (either a shortage or a surplus, I'm not sure which yet).

0.32% increase, not 3.2%.
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#26 Jul 31 2009 at 2:12 AM Rating: Good
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MDenham wrote:
GRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGH RAGE MODE

Decimal points are going in the wrong places in milich's posts due to beer (either a shortage or a surplus, I'm not sure which yet).

0.32% increase, not 3.2%.


Well, it being 6am could also effect his decimal placement.
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#27 Jul 31 2009 at 2:14 AM Rating: Decent
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The One and Only Deadgye wrote:
Well, it being 6am could also effect his decimal placement.
To co-opt a meme:

milich does not sleep.

He waits.
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#28 Jul 31 2009 at 2:19 AM Rating: Good
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MDenham wrote:
The One and Only Deadgye wrote:
Well, it being 6am could also effect his decimal placement.
To co-opt a meme:

milich does not sleep.

He waits.


i wish i could sleep like normal people; ;. i also wish i didn't just run out of cigarettes. no more math for tonight, or i'll go insane.

edit: beer shortage... got in late, and decided not to start drinking at 1am, even though i guess it would have been fine considering, again, i don't sleep. though i also played chess online, which i don't do very well when i'm drinking. then again, if i recall, i lost anyway, so who cares.

final edit: sometimes i wonder what it means that >50% of the sentences i write start with 'though' or 'however' or 'but' etc. in speech as well as text, no less. more swearing in speech though. i think i might be tired; i seem to be getting self-indulgent.

Edited, Jul 31st 2009 6:21am by milich
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#29 Jul 31 2009 at 2:23 AM Rating: Decent
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Sleep has never been my forte as well. I forced myself into a *wake up at 8-10ish* "schedule" a week or two ago. And I just slowly drifted back into my nocturnal nature. I love being a night person.. but due to the fact that this conflicts with all my societies except my rave society I sometimes end up skipping a day of sleep. Smiley: lol

Sleep fails. Why can't everything be open 24/7 so that it can agree with me.

edit: oo oo, if I add in sirocco's DMG plus the fstr to it, does that mean I can just use that number and the percent will still be correct?

Like, 33 + 8 + 133 + 26 + 8 = 208, 1/208 = ~0.48?

Edited, Jul 31st 2009 6:35am by Deadgye
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#30 Jul 31 2009 at 7:31 AM Rating: Good
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The One and Only Deadgye wrote:
Sleep has never been my forte as well. I forced myself into a *wake up at 8-10ish* "schedule" a week or two ago. And I just slowly drifted back into my nocturnal nature. I love being a night person.. but due to the fact that this conflicts with all my societies except my rave society I sometimes end up skipping a day of sleep. Smiley: lol

Sleep fails. Why can't everything be open 24/7 so that it can agree with me.
This, exactly, even down to how long ago you started the 8-10ish thingie. Today I woke up at 2pm ;_;
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#31 Jul 31 2009 at 4:14 PM Rating: Excellent
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I'm not surprised that attack would be worth more than we originally give it credit for, and I agree with the conclusion given. In addition I agree with the haste versus stats on everything Shamaya said. In the recent month I've been playing around with not only X's knife and crit setups, but also my tp burn setup and evisceration versus dancing edge (and more). I was going to post a summary of my data in a new topic, but since Shamaya went and posted this here I'll just summarize it in this post instead.

-----
1:) Slow versus Haste

I used to try and maximise every critical hit I did by swappping into the strongest damage options avaiilable to me for the critical no matter what. In the case of sneak attack that involved the hecatomb cap +1, gloves +1, and leggings +1.... and in the case of trick attack it simply meant losing all haste. I DID NOT enjoy swapping into my solo sneak attack set, especially when using my x's knife. As much as it sounds weird, I found my performance lessened drastically every time I solod a sneak attack with x's. The reason is that with x's delay of 201 being high to begin with, losing 17% melee haste and swapping in 27% slow (does slow cap at 25% like haste?) was NASTY!! It was ACTUALLY PAINFUL to see. I would go from swinging rounds every few seconds to a HUGE delay of 5++ seconds to get another in. I would just stop and stand there frozen in time, and that sucked!!! I've since modified my sneak attack set to remove the heca cap hands and feet, and replace em with dragon feet +1, artifact hands +1 (no annm hands yet) and my assassin's bonnet.

Yes, I actually dusted off my assassin's bonnet in place of heca cap +1 for solo sneak attack. The reason is that this IS part of our DoT, so swinging again soon matters. I refer to solo criticals as "Spike DoT" but they are still melee DoT nonetheless, and part of our tp building routine.


----
2:) Attack versus stats

I have always valued attack, and I've been preaching the merits of the charger mantle for the past two years. When I got sea access I bought in order, the brutal followed by the charger followed by the boxer's mantle. The charger is a NICE item for solo crits and I've been using it for years.

The concept is simple, and I've touched upon it before. If you have a huge base damage but low attack, raising attack will do a lot more than raisng base damage by a little more. My base damage in my max stats set is around 185, so raising base damage by 1 is worth about half a % of the crit, whereas raising the pDIF by 1 is worth almost twice as much, or two stat points. pDIF goes up by 1% around every 3-5 attack (usually 3-4) so attack DOES matter, and even though it will be a critical hit it's still going to play an important role in the outcome. I gave the ratio around 1 base stat to 4-5 attack but in actual practice that still underestimates its strength. Whenever I use berserk or cap my attack the damage shoots through the ROOF on solo criticals, and as /nin in a burn scenario THAT kind of attack is rarely seen (barring bard/cor of course).

-----------------
3:) Summary:

I agree with Shamaya on his analysis. However I think he should edit his OP. In his OP he accounts a hierarchy for each solo piece and gives heca a higher rank than I think it should get. Slow is exponentially cumulative. While ONE piece of heca will possibly fit into the grid, donning them ALL will have catastrophic results on your soloed sneak attacks. As I said, I even removed my heca cap +1 and replaced it with relic.

Thief Damage can be divided into two parts. Weaponskills and Melee DoT. As I said I like to call our solo criticals "Spike DoT", but they are melee DoT nevertheless. They are in the ritual of building tp to get to the point of weaponskill, so adding unnecessary slow when the difference is going to be minimal is generally a bad idea. The heca set will give monstrous slow for a very SMALL bonus to the overall damage of that crit when you consider the relativity of the siituation. In comparison to the wait time to attack again (it really is THAT painful) it's not worth it. Heca is weaponskill only --- The only possible exception may be the hecatomb subligar. THAT piece I would probably ok for a solo sneak attack if used alone. Just don't combine it with any of the other 4 and you should be fine.

Edited, Aug 3rd 2009 2:24pm by Melphina
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#32 Jul 31 2009 at 7:06 PM Rating: Decent
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I'd say as a general rule for solo SA or solo TA 1dex/agi = 4 attack. When you're not pimp the stat is a little bit better, and when you are pimp the attack starts to get a little bit better. Pimp meaning have high stats. Smiley: tongue The math supports this conclusion, unless I did something wrong.

That being said, I can really on see charger's mantle being used for solo trick Attack, and the only reason I haven't bothered to get one is because while *** cape is slightly worse it also has enmity+5 on it. :x

Edited, Aug 1st 2009 12:49am by Deadgye
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#33 Jul 31 2009 at 9:27 PM Rating: Good
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The One and Only Deadgye wrote:
Sleep has never been my forte as well. I forced myself into a *wake up at 8-10ish* "schedule" a week or two ago. And I just slowly drifted back into my nocturnal nature. I love being a night person.. but due to the fact that this conflicts with all my societies except my rave society I sometimes end up skipping a day of sleep. Smiley: lol

Sleep fails. Why can't everything be open 24/7 so that it can agree with me.
I went to bed at about 4 AM last night and work up at about 7:40 AM. Wasn't a great day, but if I had to do it over I'd still stay up. :D

The One and Only Deadgye wrote:
That being said, I can really on see charger's mantle being used for solo trick Attack, and the only reason I haven't bothered to get one is because while *** cape is slightly worse it also has enmity+5 on it. :x
It also saves you 150 ABCs, or about 1.35 mil. If you have the gil to throw around, no big deal. I don't. _(._.)_




Edited, Aug 1st 2009 12:29am by bsphil
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#34 Jul 31 2009 at 10:36 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
It also saves you 150 ABCs, or about 1.35 mil. If you have the gil to throw around, no big deal. I don't. _(._.)_


I just spent 150 coins on a jaguar mantle for my racc set recently. :3 At +120racc now.
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#35 Jul 31 2009 at 11:27 PM Rating: Decent
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Mistress Melphina wrote:
(does slow cap at 25% like haste?)
Unfortunately, no, gear slow does not cap. For that matter, total slow does not cap either, meaning that it's possible to be at ~200% slow (full HQ Heca + weakness + Slow II + Elegy).
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#36 Aug 01 2009 at 5:25 AM Rating: Good
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Unfortunately, no, gear slow does not cap.


I had a hunch this was the case, and that's why I argued that the placement of heca in the OP should be noted with an asterisk***. Perhaps if you wear one of them for a solo SA you may be ok, but slap on four heca and you're going to delay the round so bad it wouldn't be worth it. With 4/5 nq (non body) heca in sneak attack you'll have 30% slow, and 34% with hq 4/5. Either way the stats don't justify the benefit because in relativity the increase is too small. It's easy to see with a simple example, and I'll use blau as main weapon with an fSTR of 6 + my stats. I merited dexterity 3 times so natural dex == 83

now consider these sets

assassin's bonnet, torque, pixie, suppa
skadi's, artifact +1, thunder, rajas
charger, cuchulain, dragon subligar +1, dragon feet +1

Total dex == 49
Total str == 5
Total slow == 0%
Total speed == 5% Dual Wield

Versus

Heca cap +1, torque, pixie, hollow
dragon harness +1, heca +1, thunder, rajas
charger, cuchulain, heca +1, heca +1

Total dex == 57
Total str == 32
Total Slow == 34%

The totals are then

33 (blau) + 83 (base dex) + 49 (gear dex) + 7 (Adding a bonus of fSTR from gear to the original fSTR of 6) == 172 base damage

Versus

33 (blau) + 83 (base dex) + 57 (gear dex) + 10 (I'll cap fSTR here) == 183 base damage


The first example is what I turned my current set into. This has a bit of room for upgrades now with skadi's visor (I agree here, adding 6 attack and 3% haste is worth 1 dex loss) and I can try and make another DH +1 or go for dusk legs, but I abhor movement down so I'm content with subligar +1 for now. There is also the ANNM hands with 7 dex too, but other than that it's pretty solid. The critical STILL packs a serious whallop with 172 base damage and a boost to attack, and it retains the original gear oriented delay plus the speed suppa adds. Not bad at all!!

The second scenario is the theoretical "max damage" for the critical. It has all of the components to maximize the solo to be as powerful as it can be. And while YES this critical WILL hit harder than the first one, if you cap attack and add all the base damage the difference is still only twelve base damage which caps at 36 actual damage in a perfect roll at capped attack. Now I don't know about you, but I can't justify raising the damage by such a small percentile at the expense of 34% slow. Thirty-four PERCENT slow is HUGE, and even without the legs that's what I saw for a little bit until I changed it out. The relative base damage increase of adding the hecatomb is approximately 5.5% increase, but the slow is 34% increase. THAT'S nasty >.<

I reiterate that when we solo a trick or sneak attack it is still part of our tp building routine. It's not a weaponskill and since it's not instant hecatomb's slow will matter and will compound exponentially. It's probably best to save hecatomb for weaponskills (but DO use the set THERE, that's what hecatomb is made for after all. It's a weaponskill set, use it as such!!). But in mellee DoT or solo, I'm not a huge fan of heca even in solo sneak attack.

Edited, Aug 1st 2009 9:32am by Melphina
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#37 Aug 01 2009 at 11:29 AM Rating: Decent
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The only reason I can see to use Heca for SA is if there's some obscure call for you to go THF/DRG and do SA+Jump (assuming that even works).
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#38 Aug 01 2009 at 11:59 AM Rating: Decent
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One thing to realize is that while you may only be getting a 5~10% increase in damage from stats, that 32-36% decrease from slow is a decrease on the damage from your average attack round, which is a different damage source. I don't have the time right now to do the math, but I sure am going to do a lot of it before I change my gearsets, lol.

I am 100% sure however, that hecatomb is most likely still worth it while fighting most HNMs since your normal attack round damage output isn't going to be high. (Situational of course, if you have 2 minuet's and berserk and red curry buns it might not worth it. Smiley: lol)
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#39 Aug 03 2009 at 9:11 PM Rating: Decent
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Some crappy estimation maths tell me that changing Heca Cap+1 to *** head +1, Heca Mittens+1 to Enkidu Mittens, Heca Subligar to Dragon Subligar+1, and Heca Leggings+1 to Dragon Leggings+1 will lower your SA round damage by about 70(before piercing) and increase your damage from normal attack rounds because there's no slow by 30(before piercing). Therefore better to keep on the slow. Of course, this doesn't account for missing sneak attack, but meh.

Unless I did something wrong, here's the crappy lolnapkinmath that I spent maybe 15 minutes on. The gear choices may be.. a little out of wack. I didn't feel like using Mirke because I don't plan on ever getting it.

Main: X's Knife
Sub: Blau Dolch
Range: -
Ammo: Fire Bomblet
Head: Anwig Salade
Neck: Love Torque
Ear1: Brutal Earring
Ear2: Suppanomim
Body: Homam Corazza
Hands: Homam Manopolas
Ring1: Rajas Ring
Ring2: Toredor's Ring
Back: Cuchulain's Mantle
Waist: Swift Belt
Legs: Skadi's Chausses
Feet: Homam Gambieras

Level 82: Defense 327, Evasion 339, VIT 67, AGI 67
Coeurl Sub: Str+5 Agi+1 Attack+20(75)
1BRD: Attack+66 Haste+11%
haste: Haste + 15%

Str: 62 + 9 + 5 [76]
Dex: 80 + 14 [94]
Attack: 8 + 38 + 269 + 16 + 7 + 16 + 6 + 5 - 5 + 5 + 66 + 75 [506]
Acc: 200 + 82 + 47 + 5 + 6 + 10 + 15 + 4 + 7 + 5 + 3 + 4 + 6 [394]
Haste: 3 + 3 + 4 + 2 + 3 + 11 + 15 [41]

fstr = 3
cratio = 1.197
Acc% = 88.5
Base Damage = (34 + 3) && (33+3)

Main: X's Knife
Sub: Blau Dolch
Range: -
Ammo: Bomb Core
Head: Hecatomb Cap +1
Neck: Love Torque
Ear1: Brutal Earring
Ear2: Pixie Earring
Body: Skadi's Cuirie
Hands: Hecatomb Mittens +1
Ring1: Rajas Ring
Ring2: Thunder Ring
Back: Cuchulain's Mantle
Waist: Warwolf Belt
Legs: Hecatomb Subligar
Feet: Hecatomb Leggings +1

Level 82: Defense 327, Evasion 339, VIT 67, AGI 67
Coeurl Sub: Str+5 Agi+1 Attack+20(75)
1BRD: Attack+66 Haste+11%

Str: 62 + 41 + 5 [108]
Dex: 80 + 58 [138]
Attack: 8 + 269 + 16 + 7 + 16 + 12 + 5 + 20 + 54 + 66 + 75 [548]
Slow: 9 + 7 + 12 + 6 [34]

fstr = 11
cratio = 2.325
Base Damage = (34 + 11 + 138) + (33 + 11)


44.289 + 43.092 -> 90

425.475 + 58.3 -> 480


Main: X's Knife
Sub: Blau Dolch [Attack +16]
Range: -
Ammo: Bomb Core [Attack +12]
Head: Assassin's Bonnet +1 [Dex+6]
Neck: Love Torque [Dex+5 Dagger+7]
Ear1: Brutal Earring
Ear2: Pixie Earring [Dex+3]
Body: Skadi's Cuirie [Dex+8 Attack+5]
Hands: Enkidu Mittens [Str+4 Dex+4]
Ring1: Rajas Ring [Str+5 Dex+5]
Ring2: Thunder Ring [Dex+5]
Back: Cuchulain's Mantle [Str+4 Dex+4]
Waist: Warwolf Belt [Str+5 Dex+5]
Legs: Dragon Subligar +1 [Dex+5]
Feet: Dragon Leggings +1 [Dex+4 Attack+3]

Level 82: Defense 327, Evasion 339, VIT 67, AGI 67
Coeurl Sub: Str+5 Agi+1 Attack+20(75)
1BRD: Attack+66 Haste+11%

Str: 62 + 18 + 5 [85]
Dex: 80 + 54 [134]
Attack: 8 + 269 + 16 + 7 + 16 + 12 + 5 + 3 + 66 + 75 [477]
Slow: 0

fstr = 5
cratio = 2.108
Base Damage = (34 + 5 + 134) + (33 + 5)

364.684 + 42.104 -> 410

70 decrease; 30 gain


Inbeforelolnapkinmath. Most of the stuff I that wasn't exact was done in favor of the not-slow situation. I didn't even apply the accuracy for the normal attack round, which would have lower the damage gained by getting rid of slow even more, etc.

Edited, Aug 4th 2009 1:14am by Deadgye
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#40 Aug 04 2009 at 1:28 AM Rating: Decent
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I went through and un-napkined the math over here:

* First, replaced cRatio with average pDIF (this is relevant to the Heca case only because the cRatio is between 1.25 and 1.5; this makes the lower-end pDIF 1, and therefore the lower-end pDIF on crits is 2);

* Second, fixed the attack number in the non-Heca set (you left out the STR! :-D)

* Third, re-figured damage numbers:
- Normal hits: ~87/round
- SA in Heca: ~572 (520 x 1.1 from X's)
- SA in other set: ~484 (439 x 1.1)

* Fourth, figured how many rounds difference there is as a result of the Slow. (It's about 0.85 rounds, so that rounds to 1 for the purposes of this.)

Net result: they're even with each other, roughly. (Within about 2 damage.)
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#41 Aug 04 2009 at 2:21 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
* Fourth, figured how many rounds difference there is as a result of the Slow. (It's about 0.85 rounds, so that rounds to 1 for the purposes of this.)


FIrst off, thanks for the fixes. :3 Second, I having difficulty seeing how 34% slow can cause a delay difference of a whole round. Extrapolate!
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#42 Aug 04 2009 at 3:48 AM Rating: Decent
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You're replacing haste with slow in alot of slots, and his calculations are with 2xmarch + haste spell. So from tp to heca you go from 50% haste to 35% haste with 30% slow

My numbers aren't exact, but you should get the point.

If we examine the converse, anytime we don't have 2xmarch and haste, then the heca would be better over all, since it would never be significantly worse. (except when zerging? soul voice march)

Edited, Aug 4th 2009 7:59am by Ineptvagrant
#43 Aug 04 2009 at 4:36 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
You're replacing haste with slow in alot of slots, and his calculations are with 2xmarch + haste spell. So from tp to heca you go from 50% haste to 35% haste with 30% slow


The comparison isn't between the TP gear and the Slow Gear though, it's between the replacement gear and the heca gear. The difference is only 34% slow, there's 0% difference in haste.
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#44 Aug 04 2009 at 5:50 AM Rating: Decent
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The One and Only Deadgye wrote:
Quote:
You're replacing haste with slow in alot of slots, and his calculations are with 2xmarch + haste spell. So from tp to heca you go from 50% haste to 35% haste with 30% slow


The comparison isn't between the TP gear and the Slow Gear though, it's between the replacement gear and the heca gear. The difference is only 34% slow, there's 0% difference in haste.
The thing is, for "total Haste/Slow", you take your entire total Haste, then subtract your entire total Slow. It's one quantity, not separate Haste and Slow quantities. (That said, it's not ~0.85 rounds; I don't quite remember how I got that specific number.)

Okay, here's how it works:

Heca round: 1.08 * 0.85 * 379 = 347.922 delay
Other-set round: 0.74 * 0.85 * 379 = 238.391 delay
Difference: 109.531 delay

Regular round: 0.59 * 0.80 * 379 = 178.888 delay

Difference in terms of regular rounds: 109.531/178.888 = 0.6122... rounds

EDIT: and no, I don't ever use double March in what I did. I went with the same Minuet/March pairing as Deadgye's attempt did.

Edited, Aug 4th 2009 6:52am by MDenham
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#45 Aug 04 2009 at 7:07 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
changing Heca Cap+1 to *** head +1, Heca Mittens+1 to Enkidu Mittens, Heca Subligar to Dragon Subligar+1, and Heca Leggings+1 to Dragon Leggings+1


@Deadgye: this is not what Shamaya meant with his OP. Shamaya is suggesting to balance gears. Use heca where you get the most bang for your buck. Example: use Hecatomb Subligar +1 instead of Dragon Subligar+1.
And use other options when heca does not offer as much. Example: ANNM Dragon Mitts > Enkidu's mitts > Heca +1 mitts.

You should do the math again but now with the gear options Shamaya gave. Except Skadi Feet.

Edited, Aug 4th 2009 5:08pm by Breaze
#46 Aug 04 2009 at 7:16 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
FIrst off, thanks for the fixes. :3 Second, I having difficulty seeing how 34% slow can cause a delay difference of a whole round. Extrapolate!


Oh I can. As was said when you swap from your tp set to your solo sa set and go from the haste equip to the slow, the difference isn't just gaining the slow but losing the haste as well. In my tp set to swap into max stats I lose 8% dual wield and 17% haste, and I pick up 24% slow, whereas with heca subligar +1 it would be 38% slow. The combined effects are 41% slow + 8% dual wield with no subligar, and 58% slow + 8% dual wield with the sub.

Slow and haste are affecting the SAME thing, just in reverse directions. Just like gear that raises accuracy versus gear that lowers accuracy are counters, and how the +5 attack on skadi's trousers and the -5 attack on swift belt are counters, slow and haste are counters to one another as well. By taking off a % of haste you gain that much slow, and visa versa. And since these have exponentially accumulating properties such a large amount can be QUITE noticeable.

Also, I want to throw out that with triple attack one attack round in brutal/suppa is worth 2.48 swings on average, so even if you don't consider brutal here as a viable swap piece it's still worth noting that tidbit of bonus attacks.

Since the calculations deadgye threw out were corrected to be equal, and since deadgye is using x's knife in his scenario whereas without x's the difference will be even more favoring of haste, I stick with my stance that shamaya's OP is of the correct assumption. This is of course assuming a burn scenario. on gods of course maximizing crits is teh way to go. But that's assumed anyway, so I'll leave that as a closing note and be done with that.

Edited, Aug 4th 2009 11:23am by Melphina
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#47 Aug 05 2009 at 6:56 AM Rating: Decent
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So Sword Belt > Forest Belt huh?

mmm and my sword belt +1 has a +1 dex mod :D


however, I don't understand the whole striders/trotters deal... even after reading the LJ


There a similar article for "With weaponskills"?

Edited, Aug 5th 2009 10:58am by PyroElf
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#48 Aug 05 2009 at 8:41 AM Rating: Good
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I cant fathom know how you guys play that somehow makes speed boots better for SATA, but speed boots (or dusk) should have ZERO effect on your SA. You guys do know that when slowed (movement speed like gravity slowed :P) that it only affects normal walking, and when engaged forward and back right? If you are "locked" on the target, you can run sideways or diagonally at normal speed. (great on quad NMs in dyanmis. Just run Diagonally towards them after knockback+heavy Grav, and once close enough, just sideways to circle them for SA/TA. Why you would wear trotters/skadi during SA/TA is beyond me. If you guys supporting tritter/skadi could explain why, be much appreciated.

Quote:
There a similar article for "With weaponskills"?


Haste/slow has ZERO effect on instant actions. WS, Jump etc take the same amount of delay as Boost, Zerk, or USING SA/TA (not hitting afterward). WS are completely unaffected by this discussion. SAWS just takes the delay of using 2 JAs and does nothing else. Using SA then smacking with a melee round in full heca gear is what slows you since you must hit with a normal attack round to use solo SA or TA. WS isnt a normal attack round.

WS follows the same rules they always have for damage with the proper balance of acc/atk/Dex/Str depending on mob/food/buffs you have.

Edited, Aug 5th 2009 12:42pm by Banalaty
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#49 Aug 05 2009 at 1:09 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
The thing is, for "total Haste/Slow", you take your entire total Haste, then subtract your entire total Slow. It's one quantity, not separate Haste and Slow quantities. (That said, it's not ~0.85 rounds; I don't quite remember how I got that specific number.)

Okay, here's how it works:

Heca round: 1.08 * 0.85 * 379 = 347.922 delay
Other-set round: 0.74 * 0.85 * 379 = 238.391 delay
Difference: 109.531 delay

Regular round: 0.59 * 0.80 * 379 = 178.888 delay

Difference in terms of regular rounds: 109.531/178.888 = 0.6122... rounds


Ah there's my problem, I was dividing by the delay of the nonslow equipment instead of the tp equipment for some reason. Smiley: lol Although, I remember reading somewhere that you took your attack round and multiplied it by the haste you had, and then multiplied it by the slow you had. I could be wrong as I can't seem to find it again, but meh.

Quote:
Since the calculations deadgye threw out were corrected to be equal, and since deadgye is using x's knife in his scenario whereas without x's the difference will be even more favoring of haste


The difference in attack rounds is actually exactly the same using Blau/Sirocco and etc, since the delay difference between the heca set and nonslow set decreases proportionally do the decrease in the regular round delay. Since blau/sirocco will turn out less damage per attack round than X's/blau, it's actually more in favor of the heca scenario with blau/sirocco.

I plan to redo the napkin math, and then turn it into full math using the top gear that shamaya said. But that'll have to wait for after my 20k ding, which will be after I get back from this 2~3 day camping trip I'm going on tomorrow. :p (I agree with most of Shamaya's findings, but I can't let myself listen to them without testing them myself to make sure. Smiley: grin)

Honestly if I knew how to make graphical interfaces for programs I could whip something up in a day or two that would do any and all of these comparisons between two pieces of gear pretty easily.. (Not counting skadi/trotter boots, lolmovementspeed.)

Edited, Aug 5th 2009 5:15pm by Deadgye
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#50 Aug 05 2009 at 1:35 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Quote:
Since the calculations deadgye threw out were corrected to be equal, and since deadgye is using x's knife in his scenario whereas without x's the difference will be even more favoring of haste



The difference in attack rounds is actually exactly the same using Blau/Sirocco and etc, since the delay difference between the heca set and nonslow set decreases proportionally do the decrease in the regular round delay. Since blau/sirocco will turn out less damage per attack round than X's/blau, it's actually more in favor of the heca scenario with blau/sirocco.


I think the "heca favors X's" is aimed at the bonus to crit damage on X's making SA/TA more powerful, not the damage lost from melee round damage >_>
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#51 Aug 05 2009 at 2:42 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:

I think the "heca favors X's" is aimed at the bonus to crit damage on X's making SA/TA more powerful, not the damage lost from melee round damage >_>


This. I was referring to the bonus damage x's gives when you critical, not its attack speed.
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